posted
A split thread continues here under a new heading. The old heading was: Bible thumping, child abusing kooks, which appears in the Recent Topics page. No posts were lost nor edited, of course.
I would like you to ponder this thought for a moment and see if there is any value in it.
Our great enemy is intelligent in the art of deceit and has practised his art for millennium. Could it be a tactic of his to lead some groups into fanaticism, open rebellion, and obvious sin just to put the rest of us at ease? What I mean is this. If he can get us to compare ourselves to others then we have a tendency to be lulled to sleep in our own self-righteousness. We become distasteful to God in this lukewarm condition.
While the doctrines of the Mormon church run contrary to the Holy Word of God there are many professing Christian who hold to more subtle erroneous doctrines. And, the fact that most of Christendom accepts them as truth makes it even harder to recognize them as error. But let me ask you this. Haven't we all eaten and drunk at Babylon's table? If we heard the call of God to come out of her then shouldn't we also consider that God's calling seeks to rid us of her false doctrines as well? What good does it do to "come out" if we are in spirit and truth part and parcel with her in her teachings.
Do you remember the old Salem commercial? "You can take Salem out of the country but, you can't take the country out of Salem." Maybe you are too young. Anyway, will it be said of us that "You can take them out of Babylon but, you can't take Babylon out of them"?
I realize that most probably think that they have left the heirarchy and hence Babylon, but there are more putrifying doctrines that we have tucked under are arms and brought with us to feed to our children and friends and neighbors. For this reason I am glad that many refuse to talk about doctrines but simply talk of the sinners need for Christ. It is my desire that the home church organism make a clean break from Babylon by examining every belief that is held in common with her. The big one on my list would be the immortality of the soul--the teaching that since the soul cannot die it must necessarily burn in hellfire as long as God lives. And that God looks upon their misery with satisfaction and pleasure. This is repulsive and contradictory to the nature of Christ which is revealed in Scripture as compassionate and long-suffering. And, Christ came to reveal to us the Father.
So, while we are viewing the speck in someone elses eye lets not forget to remove what is obstructing our own view. We will be greatly blessed as the veil is lifted and we view Christ in clearer tones, in his true character.
(Sorry I sound like such a Bible-thumping disciplinarian. But, we each have our office in the body of Christ. God gives the gift. Should I complain or neglect my duty?)
quote: The big one on my list would be the immortality of the soul--the teaching that since the soul cannot die it must necessarily burn in hellfire as long as God lives.
I'm interested in why you choose this as an important debate point, jq, when there is nothing we can do about it, and when the scripture has so few definitive statements on it?
I think this particular doctrine is one that it is critical to accept the mystery of faith about. Our minds cannot get around "how can a loving God..." about the sorrow in this life or the next, and our attempts to give facile answers seems, to me, to be very destructive and divisive. Even if I throw out the idea of eternal punishment, I'm left with God's allowance of the horrors of torture, murder, war etc. Ultimately, you either accept God's self-definition of Love by faith, or you reject him.
If I were to choose a biggie for people to throw away "out of Babylon", it would be lack of acceptance of paradox: that every denomination tries to settle on which scripture to use as a proof-text about what they want to believe, and which ones to throw out because it contradicts what they want to believe. I have friends that contradict me about commonly known contradictions all the time. It is very wearying to say, "liberty" and have them say, "sovereignty!" and say, "sorrow" and have them say, "joy". Very wearying indeed.
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
Since I don't want to detour this topic I will be brief. If you want more detail we can discuss offline unless David gives us permission to clog his server.
First, our relationship with God is of utmost importance. People are confused why a loving God allows suffering and death and it causes them to be reserved in their trust of him. They try to overcome this by faith but underneath they struggle with it. When they are severly tried these issue may surface and compounded with other things they don't understand could be the overthrow of their faith. Satan knows this all to well and so he piles up little things which can later be combinded to defeat us.
What people fail to understand is that all this evil exists in the world BECAUSE God is love. God could force all of us to serve him; he is able to do this. But love cannot be forced; it must be willingly given. Therefore, God pleads with us and holds out to us wonderful promises of peace and happiness if we will only serve him. And all of these exceeding great promises are available to us through the gift of his Son on the cross. What more could he do to win us over?
God hates sin and has promised to create a new heaven and new earth where there is no sin, no sickness, and no death. It was for this purpose that Jesus came to die--to condemn sin in the flesh. The gift of his Son, heaven's most precious gift, proves that God will hold back nothing to destroy sin and save the sinner. But how is he going to accomplish this, with a people who have a propensity to sin, while continuing to extend to them the freedom of choice. The only answer is to steal them away from the grasp of sin. Draw them to himself with cords of love greater than the bonds of sin.
So God commends his love to us in that while we were yet his enemies Christ died for us. Love your enemies, he says, and demonstrated this selfless love at the cross. This is our motivation.
Now, there is a hint of motivation in the fear of God but it is the love of God that will bind us up with him, not fear. The doctrine of hellfire has not frightened one sinner into a saving relationship with God. It has most suredly turned more away from him than to him. It's healthy to have a good understanding of the law of God and how our transgression of that law condemns us to die. It is this knowledge that causes us to cry out in our great need--oh wicked man that I am, who will save me from this body of death? But the terror of hellfire cannot produce a loving faith in Jesus. Yet, preachers have used it as a means of scarring sinners to confess faith in Jesus.
Let me use this simple illustration to make my point. If a person holds a gun to your head and tell you to stand on your head you would certainly do it to save your life (or die trying). But what if that same person pointed that gun at you and commanded you to love them, respect them? Though you would profess your love and respect for them to save your life it would be a lie--you could not do it truthfully, even to save your life. And since God reads the heart he knows if we love him or are just afraid of suffering in hell for eternity.
So this is why I chose this false doctrine as my "biggie." The underlying lie is that the soul is immortal and cannot die. This is contray to scripture which clearly says that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die," and again, "fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell." But the real harm in the doctrine of the immortal soul is that it paves the way for spiritualism and open the door for communications with the dead. If our dear departed loved ones enjoy the bliss of heaven and are privileged in knowledge exceeding ours then why wouldn't they visit us to warn us and guide us home? Many people will be deceived by "spirits of devils, working miracles".
Remember that in 2 Peter 3 we are told that this earth will melt with fervent heat. It will be burned up. And, in 1 John 2 we are told that this world passes away. It is for this reason that God creates a new heaven and new earth. When the earth burns up all the works will burn up too. Since the dead in Christ have been raised and the living are caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air then the lost are going to burn up with the earth, are they not? Will they still be burning when the meek inherit the earth? Will they still be burning when the new genesis happens? Malachi 3 says they will be "ashes under our feet." And, so that we know the wicked burn on the earth, Revelation 20:9 says they are on the "breadth of the earth" "and fire came down from God out of heaven...and devoured them." So in reality what we call hell is actually this earth.
Sorry this ran a little long but it's difficult to put in few words. Remember, Satan has had millennium to spread his lies. I just took a few minutes of your time to attempt to counteract those lies.
Just wanted to share something quickly that I heard the other day.
Here's the question. Do we believe that Jesus atoned for our sins? Was it a full atonement or is there something left for us to pay? Did he take upon himself the full punishment, or not? Of course, the answer is Yes!
Atonement involves Jesus taking our place, our punishment, for sins. Our sins earned us death. The wages of sin is death. And Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Thus, he paid the full price, our wages, for our sins.
However, for those who believe that the wages of sin is burning in hellfire for an eternity, then Jesus did not pay their full debt because he is resurrected and living and at the righthand of the Father serving as our High Priest in Heaven. He is not suffering in eternal hellfire.
But scripture doesn't say that the wages of sin is burning for an eternity in hellfire. It says, The wages of sin is death. Therefore, the death of Jesus on the cross was full payment, full atonement, for our sins. And the doctrine of hellfire receives yet another death nail.
Oh, the wicked will burn in hell fire, indeed. But they will be "consumed" and die the "second death." The fires are indeed eternal for God is called "a consuming fire" and he has no beginning or end. In Isaiah the questions is asked, The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Of course, this is talking about living with God who is "a consuming fire." How can a sinner live in the presence of our Righteous God? He cannot. He would be consumed like the grass.
So, when we read about hell's fire we should take a closer look and consider all scripture and not toss out any to fit our notions--as Laurie warned us in an earlier post.
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Jeff, let me just go on the record that I emphatically disagree with you on this one. I am pressed for time at the present to participate much on this thread.
Consider this though, the same Greek word modifies both the eternal state of the lost and the saved in the following text, though our English translation uses two. That word rendered in English is 'everlasting' and 'eternal.' The point is that the same word applies to both states of duration. If one state of duration is temporary as you maintain, so must be the other.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:46 KJV
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. Matthew 25:46 NIV
I appreciate that you take a stand--either right or wrong. God would rather we be right always but I think he hates it worse when we are luke warm (fence sit). I hope you don't mind if I post twice today. I will be gone for several days starting tomorrow. Reply when you can.
We want to be Bible believers, right? Then let's look carefully at what the Bible says. Dismiss from your mind any preconceived notions about what you believe the scriptures to say. Read it as it reads. You interpret scriptures about house churches very literally. Read these verses very literally too, ok?
Then they will go away to eternal punishment.
Let's be very honest. The duration of the punishment is qualified by the word eternal but the nature of the punishment really determines its duration, doesn't it? If the punishment of the wicked was to eat cranberries then the duration could certainly measure with the eternal life of the righteous. I don't think there is anything life-threatening about eating cranberries. But if the punishment is to burn in a lake of fire... well, that is certainly life-threatening. Can it go on forever? If the punishment of the unrighteous were death then the lake of fire would certainly result in death and death is pretty permanent.
What is the punishment of the wicked? The wages of sin is death.
Eternal life is considered a gift. Something to be desired. But since death is undesirable it would be considered punishment to receive it. So we can say that death = punishment. It is the punishment, or wages, of sin. If you agree, then Matthew 25:46 is saying only this--Then they will go away to eternal death.
Why did God give his Son? For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God gave his Son so that we might have everlasting life and not perish. There are only two choices: 1) to perish, 2) to have everlasting life. Does perish mean the same as perishing? How do you understand the word. If someone perishes do they expire or are they just expiring?
I think it's pretty clear that we either live forever or we die forever. Life is life. The worst case of human suffering, though near death, still has life. If people were to burn in hell for ever they would then have eternal life--something God offers as a gift to those only who believe in his Son. Unbelievers perish.
Beware of that little word "NOT". The serpent used it to deceive Eve in the Garden. God said, "You shall surely die," and the serpent inserted the word "NOT" to negate God's word. "You shall NOT surely die."
Today, he is inserting the word "NOT" into another thing that God said. God said, "The wages of sin is death." Satan inserts the word "NOT," in effect, through this doctrine of hellfire, so that to the mind the scripture reads, "The wages of sin is NOT death, but burning in hell forever and ever." But if you believe the first lie, "You shall NOT surely die," you must also believe the second lie which says, "The wages of sin is NOT death." Each time the word NOT is insert before the word die or death to negates the word of God.
It doesn't matter that the word "not" is missing from the text. Satan has inserted it virtually into the mind by his hellfire doctrine. He tries to portray God as having his own sadistic character.
And what a picture this doctrine paints in the minds eye. I can see it now. After a billion years the sinner finally makes it to the edge of the molten lake of fire; his skin oozing with blisters, his pain so intense he would give up the ghost if God would allow it. But God does not allow it. And there as he crawls out stands our Lord. The sinner wails, "Is it over yet?" To which our merciful and long-suffering Lord answers, "You've only just begun!" And he pushes him back under the molten lava to writhe in pain for another billion years. Even the Inquisition was not so cruel. Hitler can't touch this.
But in truth, God is very patient and long-suffering with erring humans so much so that he has delayed his coming, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
But the main question I would like for you to answer is the same question that the mainstream Protestants have been asking the Adventists for a long time. "Did Jesus finish his work of Atonement at the cross or is there something we must do to complete it?"
If you say that the wages of sin is to burn in hellfire for all eternity then Jesus did not take our full punishment. In fact, he got off very easy suffering only a few hours on the cross. However, if you will agree with the word of God then you must understand that the wages of sin is death that last for all eternity. What makes this death so final, which is called the second death in scripture, is that there is no possibility of resurrection of those who experience it.
Ok, David. It's up to you. Time to take another stand. Will you accept all of these scriptures as they read or will you alter some and discard others to retain this doctrine?
Here they are again. You can refer to them by number, if you like. Remember, I didn't put you in this hot seat. 1) Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2) Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
3) John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(BTW, I was down your way this weekend. Went through Bristol Friday afternoon on the way to Morristown, TN, and came back through on Monday morning going back to Richmond, VA. We visited Gatlinburg, also. Very nice but too much traffic to really enjoy it.)
Hope I am not rushing you. And, I am not attempting to humiliate you publicly. But this to me is the 2nd most critical false doctrine we brought with us when we made our exodus from Bablyon. It is my desire that it be exposed.
I did answer your question in the affirmative. The same word is used to describe the duration of the punishment of the wicked and the life of the just. So here is my question for you. But first, let me restate my position.
We know that eternal life goes on without end. So the question then becomes, "Does the punishment of the wicked also go on without end." The surprising answer is, Yes. So in what way do we disagree? Well, in my Bible it says that "the wages of sin is death." In light of our verse in question this means that when the wicked are punished with death it will last forever. They will never be resurrected to live again. Thus, just as the life of the just is eternal, the punishment of the wicked is eternal. Yet, not eternal life, but eternal death--for that is their punishment according to scripture in words too plain to ignore. The wages of sin is death. But, in contrast to the wages we earned, the gift of God is eternal life.
Apparently, you find evidence in your Bible which indicates that the wages of sin is NOT death but rather living eternally in a burning lake of fire. The nature of fire is that it burns until the fuel is spent. It consumes what it burns. "God is a consuming fire." He will consume sin. "He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time."
Now the two-part question. 1) If, as you contend, the wages of sin is NOT death but eternal life in the lake of fire, how can you say that Jesus paid the full penalty for your sins by his death on the cross?
2) And, Since God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life; how can you contend that no one perishes but both groups receive everlasting life--howbeit, of varying degrees of quality?
I would appreciate your answer, or anyone's for that matter.
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There are many deliberate and specific teachings about this matter. We are not left to wonder. Jesus spoke in greater detail about the eternal state of the lost than of the saved. You seem to be avoiding these plain teachings and instead appeal to inferences and logic concerning passages which do NOT describe what you seek to defend.
Please expound, Jeff, on these phrases, all of which denote an ongoing duration and none of which require human logic or human bias as to what is truly just or fair:
weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth
their worm dies not
I am tormented in this flame... give me water from your fingertip
Jesus, have you come to torment us before the time
better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire
he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation
knew his master's will but did it not - he shall be beaten with many stripes
It is the New Testament which declares that "our God is a consuming fire." The NT preaching is similar to the OT - full of warnings as well as the rich overtones of grace.
The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of wisdom, my brother. Fear is what moved Noah before God wiped out the world. Fear is why I don't drive 90 mph whenever I'm late work. Don't discount it as a valid motive.
Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:11
If I were Satan, I would do my best to get people to make light of hell by endless repetition of the word. He has already accomplished this as you have noticed. "Hell" and "damn" are heard over and over on the streets across this land - but seldom in the churches.
Instead of imagining that God is like us - unholy - and would never do this or that thing with the unrepentent, we/they should instead "flee the wrath to come." Mercy is freely offered to all.
I was up very late last night addressing your post but it turns out to be quite lengthy and I am reluctant to submit it as it is because of its length. I will include a portion here and perhaps the rest later if you truly want to see how I reconcile the phrases you mentioned with my belief in a mortal soul that can die.
We are each reading the same texts but seeing a different interpretation. The root cause of our difference is the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Thus, when you read about punishment, damnation, torment, and the like you necessarily must interpret the act as never-ending because to your mind the soul cannot be killed or destroyed (despite the fact that Jesus said to fear God who was able to destroy both body and soul in hell). And, when I read them with my mindset that the soul is mortal, until changed to immortality at Christ's coming, I interpret them as having never-ending results. In other words, the punishment is to die so the punishing in the lake of fire ends in death which is never-ending, in this case.
So what do we do? How do we become one in truth on this subject if neither of us will be moved or convinced? It is quite obvious that we can't both be correct. Therefore, one of us holds to doctrines of devils which we drank from the whore's wine goblet. Maybe it would help to see who holds beliefs in common with the Great Whore. Would that help?
I don't believe any of the phrases you mentioned actually prove that the person (or soul) live as long as the event seems to last. Could you help me see how you interpret each one, perhaps one at a time?
Here are a couple of my responses to your earlier inquiries.
* weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth
(A) This is the human expression of the agony felt drinking the cup of God's wrath which is poured out without mixture on those for whom Jesus did not drink their portion. It is pure justice not being mingled with mercy. When the wicked realize their eternal fate their souls will feel the same separation from God that Jesus expressed on the cross when he cried out, "My God, My God. Why hast thou forsaken me." We do not know how long each person will suffer but we are told that those who knew their master's will and did not do it will be beaten with many stripes while those who were ignorant will be beaten with few stripes. So there are, justly so, different punishments for different degrees of guilt.
This was growing large as well so I cut it off here. I am working on shortening my responses.
quote:Maybe it would help to see who holds beliefs in common with the Great Whore.
What would Satan's Kingdom gain by my view, Jeff?
What is your view, anyway? You seem to be far more interested in what it isn't. Sounds like a free ticket to defy the Almighty and get by. Satan's plan is to minimize any warnings of punishment and any consequences for sin.
So, will A. Hitler get the same treatment and final destiny other lost persons receive? God is going to bring him back to life just to annihilate him in a moment of time??? Annihilation would be a gift - not a punishment.
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What is my view? Well, I have presented it but perhaps in a disjointed fashion. I am going to attempt to be very brief but at the same time thorough--two things which often conflict. It is not so different from your view.
I believe in "hellfire" in this sense:
Those who reject Jesus will be cast into the lake of fire to burn.
Mt 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
We should note here that a tree that is hewn down has been severed from its roots. God is going to destroy the root of evil which is Satan. Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. The saints are likened to branches which survive only while connected to the Vine. The Vine is Jesus. Whereas, in the case of the wicked, Satan is their root.
Punishment will be in the lake of fire for a duration equal to the guilt.
Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Luke 12:47,48 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
It is interesting that you mention Adolph Hitler as the ultimate picture of evil. Yet, I believe that Hitler's crimes against humanity, and God, will pale in comparison to the offense of pastors who have led one poor soul to mistrust God through misrepresentation of his character. I believe these pastors will be guilty of the sins of those whom they have deceived who might otherwise have been saved. I do not know how long the fires will burn but I am certain that Satan and his angels will burn the longest.
That "HellFire" will rain down on the surface of our planet.
Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
The wicked have gathered themselves for a great battle against God and his saints. They are on the surface of the earth surrounding the Holy City when God rains down fire upon them.
That God has reserved the earth for this purpose.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Therefore, the fires cannot be burning people now. Else, we would see them.
That the fires were intended for Satan and his angels who will be cast into them at the judgment.
Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
The lake of fire will also consume everything on earth.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
This earth is destroyed by the fires, but since the meek are promised they will inherit the earth then it must be created anew. Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Re 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
That Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil (which includes his servants and his world).
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
That man is immortal until clothed with immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
That God only is immortal yet he bestows life upon whom he desires.
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;
God desires to bestow eternal life on everyone but the condition is that they must believe on Jesus. Those who do not believe do not receive eternal life but perish. John 3:15 whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. And, although we put on immortality it does not mean we possess life itself apart from God for Jesus is The Life. John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
So as you can see, I don't remove the punishment of the wicked. Nor do I pretend they will not burn in the lake of fire for a time worthy of their deeds. Neither do I suggest that all will be burned up in a "moment of time." However, there may be "innocent" children whom God's fire will consume instantly because of their ignorance of any wrong doing. I like to think of sin as being the fuel. The more evil a person, the more the fuel.
So are your beliefs more just than mine? If Adolph Hitler is indeed the vilest person then he should receive the greater punishment. His sentence in the fires should be the longest of all humans. But according to the doctrine of hellfire the fires are burning now and the wicked dead are suffering there as we speak. This means that thousands upon thousands had already been burning for thousands of years even before Hitler was born. Why should their punishment be greater than his? Jesus said that every man is rewarded (or punished) according to their works. Consider Jude 1:6 which tells us that the evil angels are reserved in chains unto the judgment of the great day. The doctrine of hellfire does not present God as just and fair because surely if anyone deserves hellfire it is Satan and his angels. Why are they free to roam the earth like roaring lions deceiving people while those whom they have deceived are writhing in the flames of fire which were prepared for them? That is not fair!
Now, pertaining to this matter of fear as a motivation to serve God and damage done to the gospel by the doctrine of Hellfire. I would like to address this next time.
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Nobody said anything about fear as a motivation to SERVE God but rather as a motivation for the lost to escape the coming judgement. Once we belong to Christ, we serve him out of love as a son would serve his father.
I can assure you that your arguments about "all the damage done by the doctrine of hellfire" can also be ascribed to your own doctrine of hellfire, as well.
quote:I do not know how long the fires will burn but I am certain that Satan and his angels will burn the longest.
Peace to your house, Jeff. Sorry I missed you when you came through Bristol.
quote:Originally posted by D Anderson: Nobody said anything about fear as a motivation to SERVE God but rather as a motivation for the lost to escape the coming judgement. Once we belong to Christ, we serve him out of love as a son would serve his father.
I agree, David: there are two invitations, "to be saved from" the coming judgment, and to be "saved to" the Kingdom of God. An example: Acts 2:38-41 (New International Version): And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ...39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."... 40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Peter issued both invitations, to obtain the good stuff, and flee the bad.
Some tend to respond to one invitation, others to another. I once met a man who had been alienated from God over the "sovereignty issue" and I used an analogy (inspired by the Spirit) of "a pinball wizard doesn't manage each ball individually, but controls the big picture..." and he was blown away by how much sense that made. Later I heard he had turned to serve the Lord. Who would've thought something like that would help? Two of the most long-term dedicated believers I know first decided to follow Christ because of Hal Lindsay's Late Great... Fear of suffering and hell drove them, but love for the Lord kept them.
If we neglect the preaching of horrific judgment, we are preaching an untrue gospel... and missing the opportunity of saving those for whom fear of judgment would be the "turning point".
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
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There is a vast difference in preaching fear of judgment as a deterent from sin and preaching about a God who takes pleasure in torturing sinners in hellfire for all eternity.
I have answered your questions, but no one has answered mine. I just deleted about a dozen questions from this post for the sake of brevity in favor of obtaining an answer to this one queston.
Scripture says, "The wages of sin is death." Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." (John 8:51)
(Q) What death was Jesus speaking of and is it the same that is the wages of sin?
I think we place far too much importance on the physical suffering of Christ. Many still think Jesus died because of the cross. However, the cross is only where he died, not why. He died because of our sins. His physical suffering paled in relationship to his spiritual suffering. Remember, Jesus became sin for us and sin separates from God. Jesus agonized over the separation from his Father. I doubt he felt the physical pain very much. Perhaps this is why we need the torment of hellfire, because we cannot comprehend the agony of that final separation from God that will cause the wicked to gnash their teeth, and weep and wail.
The gospel tells us that Jesus died in our place. If Hellfire were true then why doesn't the gospel teach that Jesus is burning in hellfire in our place? It is because the wages of sin is death--and Jesus did take our place by tasting the second death for all of us.
quote:Originally posted by jqlogan: There is a vast difference in preaching fear of judgment as a deterent from sin and preaching about a God who takes pleasure in torturing sinners in hellfire for all eternity.
I don't remember saying God takes pleasure... He said that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, and humans who choose their side are unwitting victims, "collateral damage" if you will.
Jesus "descended into hell" according to the Word. It's a brief, sketchy mention. Who knows how bad it was?
L
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
Laurie, to my mind, your belief in hellfire substantiates the misconception that God takes pleasure in torturing souls. You believe that God is perfect and righteous. That he does nothing outside his perfect will. You also believe that these souls will burn for an eternity. You believe that this is God's will. Well, if it is his will then it is pleasing to him. Therefore, by implication, you project the belief that it is God's perfect will to do this horrible thing and it pleases him. Thus, by implication drawn from your beliefs concerning God's character, you teach that God looks upon the eternally burning souls of our dearest, yet lost, loved ones with perfect pleasure. And, you teach that he enjoys it so much that he will not permit them to die but keeps them alive for all eternity just so he can see them squirm in the fires--all in the name of vengeance for not accepting his Son. And, the logical conclusion is that you too will take pleasure in seeing your friends, neighbors, family, who rejected Christ's gift, writhing in the flames for as long as you have eternal life. Yes, you do, if you believe that you will have a mind like Christ's then you will also share his attitude toward these lost souls. BTW, how many times a day do you plan on going by to taunt them and to laugh at their misery? Won't it be gratifying to see them suffering in horrible anguish? We can stand afar off and taunt them with, “See, I told you so! But, no-o-o, would you listen?”
If you don't like this picture of God then you are not alone. I do not like it either. And, I am glad that it is not true. What is true?
Matthew 5:44 Jesus taught us to love our enemies. Does he ask us to do something he will not do?
Matthew 5:45 God blesses the just and the unjust alike with his sun and rain thereby showing love to his enemies.
Romans 5:10 God gave his son to die for the very ones who hated him. He couldn't wait for us to love him.
2Peter 3:9 God is not willing that any should perish so much so he delays his coming.
John 3:17 God did not send Jesus to condemn mankind but to save mankind.
Romans 8:34 Jesus died to save us from condemnation. Will he now condemn us?
Philippians 2:6 Jesus gave up glory in heaven and humbled himself as a servant because he loved sinners.
God does hate sin but he loves the sinner. And, he loves the sinner so much that he gave his only begotten Son so they would not have to perish. Why would his attitude toward them suddenly change simply because they reject his Son? It doesn't. The heart of God pleading with the sinner to repent is seen vividly in Ezekial 33:11; "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" What does change is that time has run out and they must sadly pay the wages of their own sins which the Bible tells us is death. And, this death is the second death in the lake of fire (Rev 21:8) which will ultimately devour them (Rev 20:9).
Sin is an intruder which God will one day banish from his universe entirely. Nahum 1:9; ”What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.” He has promised to destroy the works of the devil through his Son. This is one of the main reasons Jesus came. 1 John 3:8 ”For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” When Adam and Eve sinned they were banished from Eden and angels guarded the way to the tree of life so that the sinful pair could not gain access to the tree and perpetuate sin eternally. (See Genesis 3:24). God is not going to perpetuate sin by keeping unrepentant sinners alive--not even in a lake of fire. "The wages of sin is death"--not eternal suffering.
So how can we hold to a doctrine which teaches that God is so vindictive that he enjoys tormenting souls in hell fire for ever and ever? Besides, does scripture ever say that souls are tormented in hell fire forever or did someone just make it up? Everything I read talks about them being devoured, destroyed, burned up, ashes, consumed, and dying the second death.
BTW, no one has yet answered my question about the wages of sin being death. Nor has anyone addressed the fact that God sent his Son to take our punishment so that those who believe might live and not perish. I would like for someone to take this challenge. What is meant by death and perish in these simple, literal, scriptures?
posted
It seemed like a slow period and a good time to attempt to finish this topic. Sorry if I am belaboring the point here, but this is such an important truth to combat spiritualism and visitations from the nether world. Something I believe Satan, as an angel of light, will use to deceive the people of the world by appearing as departed loved ones or even apostles to communicate with us--something strongly denounced in the Old Testament.
Oh, they will be friendly and seem helpful but slowly and imperceptibly they will lead us away from faith in scripture. We will reject a few scriptures here and there, then more, then still more, until we have fully lost our confidence in the Bible as the inspired word of God. When that happens we have lost our solid footing such that we can be turned to and fro at their will with every wind of doctrine that comes along.
I was reading today in 1 Cor 15 and came across this text shown here in several versions. Paul is reasoning that if there is no resurrection of the dead then Christ was not raised up and our hope is futile. Notice that he makes the connection that if there is no resurrection then those who died in Christ have perished--there is no hope of them being resurrected. Why would Paul argue in such a way if the dead in Christ are actually alive and in heaven? They are not. That is why he places so much importance on the resurrection to the Christian faith. In fact, it is so important that without it he says our faith is vain.
quote:
1Co 15:18
(ASV) Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
(BBE) And, in addition, the dead in Christ have gone to destruction.
(EMTV) Then also those who have died in Christ have perished.
(KJV+) Then686 they also which are fallen asleep2837, 2532 in1722 Christ5547 are perished.622
(KJVR) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
(LITV) And then those that fell asleep in Christ were lost.
There are numerous scriptures supporting this truth of the resurrection as vital to our faith and hope. This is just one more.
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