posted
Evangelism has certainly become a loaded term. One street evangelist I used to encounter had a bull horn and would literally terrify and startle his would-be hearers - especially from behind.
What about this rephrase: How about sharing Jesus on the street?
I heard this fellow say he got saved because he was walking down the street and saw this guy coming toward him. The front of his shirt read, "I'm a fool for Jesus..." When the man passed him, the back of his shirt read, "Who's fool are you?" He couldn't get that out of his mind, and eventually got saved ...because of that shirt.
Than I guess I have to ask myself, "What if "they" reach just one that would not have been reached some other way?"
Then I have to ask, "Should we be critical of any form of 'Christ preached'?"
Next I must ask, "If we "decide" how Christ should or should not be preached, are not we becoming the very thing we think we are trying to dissociate from?"
And lastly I must ask, "Are we, as humans, able to dictate with 100% clarity what others are called (or not called) by The Lord to do?"
Having asked those questions, I must plainly state that we should do what we feel in our hearts that The Lord has called us to do ...even if it is street EV.
The example you give is not someone accosting people on the street, but simply going about his business as a believer, which is I think what D And is pointing to.
I'm not judging the Lord's servant, rather trying to figure out, for our family, what we should do about such an invitation.
I need not mention how revolted I am, personally, by the idea because of my institutional past. There are so many facets -- that there is no "street" in America in the same sense there was in the past. Jesus told his disciples to "stay with a man" and "don't talk on the way..." sometimes, and yet he very clearly preached in public places.
posted
Personally, I struggle with this. To be bold or not. But then I have several examples lately where the person I thought to be bold with has suddenly died. Then I come across this text.
AV Ezk 33:8,9
When I say unto the wicked, O wicked [man], thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
So often I have looked for a way to grab someone "out of the fire" but restrained myself to being friendly to win them. Sometimes the people around you can restrain the Holy Spirit.
AV Mt 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
I have read of religious groups in the past that would provoke people so as to bring on persecution. Then they would give praise to God for their persecution--as if it were proof of their salvation.
PS. LA, I thought NM meant "never mind." Since the post was empty except for those two letters I thought you had started a topic and then changed your mind. "Never mind."
quote:Laurie Ann: I'm not judging the Lord's servant, rather trying to figure out, for our family, what we should do about such an invitation.
Hey Laurie Ann, Since you gave no opinion, I never thought you were! I'm only giving my perspective. I have to guard myself from thinking I understand how something should always be done, that's all. It's a personal thing.
quote:I need not mention how revolted I am, personally, by the idea because of my institutional past.
I think the key is just being obedient. You pray, you obey!
Pray about the invitation with an open heart, and feel free to say, "NO!" There is nothing wrong with revolting, because you are revolted ...but it would seem that there is something wrong with casting asparagus (the most hideous of all vegetables) on those who are doing something different than what we are doing. Maybe they are in the exact place in "the maze" they should be in... and it may be the totally wrong place for you to be (hence the revolting thing).
I love that- "You pray, you obey" Mathew! And the verse you shared, Jeff, is sobering- something I need to hear for sure!
I guess, lately, I am more and more aware of the personal nature of God. I just read Ps 16 this morning and was struck by the fact that God has always been personal! "I will praise the Lord who counsels me; even at night my heart instructs me... Because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken... You will fill me with joy in Your presence." How much more now that the Lord actually abides within us- that we are indwealt by the Holy Spirit!? I thik of Jesus and his varried responses to people- at times he seems to blow off someone I would see as genuinely interested, or He engages someone I would have seen as uninterested; He sometimes shows such gentle love and mercy towards an individual, and sometimes lays it on quite thick and is downright harsh with another.
I guess my point is that as we submit our lives, bodies, and minds to Christ, and are open to his leading, that we can probably expect Christ to work in varried ways in peoples lives through us as well.
About that guy on the street corner.... I don't know either, but I guess the one question I would ask is- is this the only method you use to reach the lost? But this is a question we could all ask ourselves. It is also a question I would ask the traditional church in general. If we do things the same way over and over- does this not show a reliance on ourselves rather than on God who seems to me to be refreshingly varied in the ways that He acts in the world?
posted
From what I understand, that statement comes from David Yonggi Cho. He is Senior Pastor and founder of the Yoido Full Gospel Church (Assemblies of God) in Korea. It is the world's largest congregation, with a membership of 830,000. [Wikipedia]
The story goes, that a reporter from the US went over to interview him on how he could found (and pastor) such a large church (numbers are everything you know ). When he finally got Cho alone, he asked him his secret. The reporter was expecting to take copious notes, but Cho simply replied, "You pray, you obey." Then he turned and left the man standing there.
That's the story I heard ...whether it's true or not, I have no idea!
There is another story I read. It is in a book called "The Final Quest". The book is written by Rick Joyner, who is seen by many to be a prophet (I do believe he operates in the prophetic to some degree).
Anyway, he said The Lord showed him a vision of two men. One had a family, was faithful in working for The Lord, and was genuinely caring for others. The other was a homeless man walking down an alleyway. A kitten walked across this man's path. The man drew back to kick the kitten, but then restrained himself, and just walked on.
Joyner then said that The Lord asked him which man was more pleasing to Him, the first or the second. Joyner replied that it was the first man. The Lord said, "No, the second man is."
The Lord then went on to tell both of their stories. The first man had been raised in church, in a loving home. This man had been given a large portion of God's love, but he was not using all of it. The second man had been born deaf and had been abused most of his life, being sent from one foster home to another. This man had only been given a small portion of His love. However, this homeless man had used every ounce of that love to not kick that little kitten ...and that had pleased The Lord greatly.
Years later, The Lord showed this man to Joyner again. The man had (by then) died. The man held a high place of honor in heaven. The Lord explained that the day the man had not kicked the kitten, He had doubled the homeless man's love. The man used that love to stop stealing. Then The Lord then sent him a tract, and he had gotten saved reading that tract. Again The Lord doubled this man's love. The man used ever bit of the love The Lord gave him, and began street witnessing. Since he was deaf and homeless, he could only work odd jobs. Still, he purchased tracts with what little money he made, and gave them to people. He eventually was allowed to lead one man (a dieing alcoholic) to Christ.
He had eventually died, having frozen to death trying to keep another man from freezing to death. The Lord informed Joyner that He considered the man a martyr, because he had given his life for Christ.
There is much more to this story, but it is a constant reminder to me that The Lord doesn't see things the way we do...
posted
One thing I'm thinking about is whether, for example, young men hanging out on street corners passing out tracts is proper. It strikes me as idleness, and wasting time. Whereas, if the young men are "going about doing good" and "working with their own hands" they will meet people on the streets as well - but not being idle.
I once heard about a person that was walking along a beach. It was low tide, and they noticed a man picking up stranded starfish and tossing them back into the ocean.
This person stopped the man and asked what they were doing. The man explained that the high tide often washed starfish up, and if low tide came ...they were sometimes left stranded on the sand. If so, they would die ...if not tossed back into the water.
The person looked around and said, "But there are so many, what does it matter what you are doing?"
The man then reportedly bent down, picked up another starfish, and tossed it back into the ocean. "It mattered to that one." He said with a smile, and then he walked on down the beach, still tossing starfish.
My point? If there is any chance we may just save just one (especially if someone feels like they should be doing the street/tract thing) ...is it really a waste of time to be doing what we feel we should be doing?
Another story?
I have a scientist friend that is pretty much "off the scale" intelligent. He has a nasty little habit of thinking he knows how God works (or doesn't work). I have confronted him about this, and he understands he has to be careful not to think "his" way ...but he still does sometimes.
I think prudence would be to reject nothing that is "churchy" just because it is (in some form) in the IC. I think wisdom is to see through the corrupted counterfeit to what is actually real.
As a fellow I know says, "There are no counterfeit three dollar bills, because there are no real ones!" I don't think satan is out there passing out tracts ...the way it is done should probably be improved upon, but probably not discarded.
posted
Okay, so the starfish example... That little boy: Was he at the beach, and doing good on the way? Or, did he have a ministry of going to the beach to throw back starfish?
As you know, I'm trying to peel away EVERYTHING that is not commanded, and do all and only what is either for 1. Physical provision or 2. Building the Kingdom AS JESUS COMMANDED.
So... Is street evangelism in accord with THE model? Or is it something God uses because we are not being obedient to what he really wants done?
PS: The result of the outing that triggered my question was the young men talking to Churchians about where they go to church...
posted
Maybe I should clarify... When I said "we" in quotes, I was meaning, "Optimally speaking, those of us who want to discover God's principles and not do anything because of dead tradition..."
I find it very interesting that everyone is uncomfortable with this question. My dd said, "That's because for years we thought we "should" do it, but we didn't do it, and feel guilty for not doing it. That makes it hard to talk about it."
:0
In other words, I want to figure out if street evangelism would be obedient to the Commands... or if it would only fall under "the permissive will of God".
I'm all for liberty in Jesus... but to be honest, my day is pretty full just obeying the commands. I'll leave the permissive will of God for people who can afford it
quote:Laurie Ann said: Okay, so the starfish example... That little boy: Was he at the beach, and doing good on the way? Or, did he have a ministry of going to the beach to throw back starfish?
I guess I would have to ask, why does it matter?
quote:As you know, I'm trying to peel away EVERYTHING that is not commanded, and do all and only what is either for 1. Physical provision or 2. Building the Kingdom AS JESUS COMMANDED.
By commanded, could that also mean "told"? For example, "I feel Jesus told me to go walk down some road, jump up on some guy's chariot, tell him a Bible story, baptize him, and then never see him again."
quote:So... Is street evangelism in accord with THE model? Or is it something God uses because we are not being obedient to what he really wants done?
I have no idea. I'm kinda in the dark on "The Model." Can you tell me what that is, and how street EV violates it. I thought The Model was simple obedience.
quote:PS: The result of the outing that triggered my question was the young men talking to Churchians about where they go to church...
Kinda remindes me of that license plate that read "I TITHE"!
quote:Maybe I should clarify... When I said "we" in quotes, I was meaning, "Optimally speaking, those of us who want to discover God's principles and not do anything because of dead tradition..."
That's what I want. However, it would appear that the only things that we can say (with total certainty) that The Lord would never tell us to do, is to sin. Do you think that is too low of a standard?
quote:I find it very interesting that everyone is uncomfortable with this question. My dd said, "That's because for years we thought we "should" do it, but we didn't do it, and feel guilty for not doing it. That makes it hard to talk about it."
Well, I'm not uncomfortable at all. The fact is, I have given out untold numbers of tracts and Voice Magazines. I'm pretty sure a lot of that time was wasted. I'm also pretty sure some of that time wasn't. However, I don't think any of my time would have been wasted, if I had done that stuff because The Lord told (commanded) me to do it. I'm just not so sure He doesn't tell some people to witness that way, that's all.
quote:In other words, I want to figure out if street evangelism would be obedient to the Commands... or if it would only fall under "the permissive will of God".
I would love to know that too! Being told to do something and obeying, is much better than deciding to do something, and then just being allowed to do it!
quote:I'm all for liberty in Jesus... but to be honest, my day is pretty full just obeying the commands. I'll leave the permissive will of God for people who can afford it.
So, why don't we (if you have no objections to my input) "build a case" (either for or against the concept) concerning street EV. To be honest, I haven't done one drop of it since 1995, when I was on a Teen Mission EV team on Bohol, in the Philippines.
Also, please be patient with me. Besides the obvious, my wife just had gallbladder surgery today ...and I may not be as quick to post back as I normally am. I have been gone all day today (we've been at the hospital) and my wife is still there (they decided to keep her overnight due to the reaction she was apparently having to the anesthesia).
I'm supposed to pick her up in the morning if all goes well tonight, but I really don't know what's in store for us for the next several days.
posted
I'll pray for your Beloved, Matthew. May the Lord truly heal her quickly!
As for the topic:
Yes, certainly, I don't mean, "Should we witness on the street?" Being led by the Spirit is a given here, I think?
There are things we are to do, though, without "being led". Celebrating the Lord's Supper, baptizing new believers, growing in the Word we do regularly, without waiting for a Spirit prompting.
So, my question is whether Street Evangelism - in the sense of making a once a week date to go from door to door, or hang out in the parking lot at K-Mart is more of a "we should do it regularly" like communion, or more of a thing to do only if there is a Spirit prompting or special Circumstance.
For example, after Hurricane Katrina, Christians hit the streets in New Orleans doing good works -- and when we visited this past spring, people were still talking about that -- they were amazed and thankful for the generosity of strangers, and "took note that they had been with Jesus".
Is it the Greek Interlinear that has the Great Commission as, "Go, and as you are going..."?
Gal. 6:14 says "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world (greek word is kosmos which is translated world SYSTEM) has been crucified to me, and I to the kosmos (world SYSTEM)."
1 Cor. 1:20,21 says "Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the kosmos (world SYSTEM)? For since in the wisdom of God the kosmos (world SYSTEM) through it's wisdom did not know him, God was pleased thrugh the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe." Why? Vs. 29 says "So that no one may boast before Him"
Contrast this with 1 Cor 1:9 which says "God, who has called you into FELLOWSHIP with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful."
I think our human nature craves SYSTEMS! Why? Probably because they make us feel secure and in control. Systems allow us to baost in ourselves. This is worldly wisdom. We, as Christ's church must be very careful about systemizing ourselves I think. Even when those systems are set up to do good things, like evangelize.
I think God is all about FELLOWSHIP! Bringing us into it with Himself and with eachother. I think that Although God uses systems, He delights in working through fellowship, because then He gets the glory, and peoples hearts, all at the same time.
So, a system of street evangelism? O.K. maybe, but not so glorious as God bringing people into fellowship with Himself through His followers as they are in fellowship with Him and eachother. Then God can work in all the variety of ways that only He can think up. BTW- the traditional church in general seems to be mainly (but not wholely), made up of a network of systems.
quote:So, my question is whether Street Evangelism - in the sense of making a once a week date to go from door to door, or hang out in the parking lot at K-Mart is more of a "we should do it regularly" like communion, or more of a thing to do only if there is a Spirit prompting or special Circumstance.
Oh, THAT!!! Well then, I agree with Jeanne (and I suspect with you as well Laurie Ann). There should be no "schedule" or system of operation. Obedience only. I'm such a heretic, I can't even think of one thing we should "always do" when we get together with other believers (I do like the eating thing though)!
The Great Commission in The Greek Interlinear says, "And He said to them, 'Be going into all the world. Proclaim The Gospel to the entire creation!'"
Be blessed, Matthew
P.S. And thanks for the prayers ladies! The woman of me is doing much better. Her pain is now to the place where her medication is able to mask it. She had a pretty rough night, and I didn't get much sleep (she ended up coming home at 1:00am). I'm gonna try and get some rest now ...if I can get the girl of me to settle down for a while too!
posted
Hey Matthew, sorry to see your recent family distress.
After saying that, everything else seems kind of silly.
Ill just note, our God is all about systems and plans and goals, wonderful. intricate, creative, complex systems. He seems to make them work very well. Its only our systems that suck.
posted
No system, no plan, no purpose, no standards, no justice. Just hopeless chaos.
No wait, that would be without God. What a sorry life that would be.
My reading of the co-mission statements that end each gospel is that the evangelic- sharing the good message of Christ(briefly, change your life, God's Kingdom is here! The 7 most important words)is the nuber 1 task of His church, His Body. Disciple building- that is building those changed lives, in those who will lead others into changed lives, would be a close second, if we ever take Christ's words and example seriously.
For as I can tell Christ's example is to go out in the streets pretty much everyday to share His message with strangers( some stranger than others)In that it is continual, guess you can't call it scheduled, as much as the key to daily existance. It probably becomes more natural the more you do it!
quote:Originally posted by Rich 1: Christ's example is to go out in the streets pretty much everyday
See, this is what I'm trying to figure out... Was he just wandering the streets 12 hours a day as an itinerant teacher? Or did he have some kind of direction and purpose that gave shape to the day, and obey the Deuteronomy command to discuss the Word, "when you walk beside the way".
We've been taught that Jesus and the disciples gave up their careers completely to proclaim The Message. We know that some "supported them" financially. But did a handful of women really take on all the needs of 73 men? Was this to be an example of a full time clergy that did nothing but talk? Or, was it just an example of hospitable generosity to strangers who might run short before they get home?
The acts and words of Jesus don't actually take that long to recreate. He called the Four away from their nets, and yet we see them fishing again at various times. Did they really "quit" or did they just "make time in their day" for a new priority?
As an example of a misleading tradition, people use the fact that Jesus said, he had "no place to rest" as meaning he didn't "live" anywhere, and yet he "lived" in Capernaum. (Matt. 4:13). He worked in circles throughout Palestine - did he come back to Capernaum to work at his trade to support himself, in addition to accepting hospitality when he was away? His mother and brothers lived with him there (Mark 2, 3).
I know that the English translations tend to support the man-centered hierarchical model of religion rather than the "Kingdom of God Is Here". What does that mean for the proclamation of the gospel in a community?
I'm not satisfied with what I've figured out so far on this particular issue.
posted
True, the little we have in records( which seem so overwhelming to follow) give us only a snap shot, the high lights of the most extraordinary life. We are told all the books in the world could record all that He did.
Today I was thinking of one point I made which may not be fair- about strangers. No one was a stranger to Him. He knew everything about them, before they ever met Him. Not sure how we are to share that, except the Spirit gives us the opportunity to meet His old friends everyday. Shall we accept our invitation to this big, friendly party?
As you say, it will take great wisdom of The Spirit to see how closely we are to copy events, should any be willing to do so. Beside the 12,000 hours He mentored the core group, I am struck by the fact that He waited til He was 30 to begin this ministry, relatively old age in those days, and devoted only 10 percent of His life to it. Perhaps we could all find such a percentage workable. Personally, Im thinking 60 is the new 30!
quote:Rich 1 said: As (Laurie Ann says), it will take great wisdom of The Spirit to see how closely we are to copy events, should any be willing to do so.
Oh! I see!!! This is where it is important to distinguish between The Word and The Scriptures! Even in the King James, they ALWAYS got this one right! The Bible is not The Word, only Jesus is! The Bible is "Scripture".
I know! This sounds stranger than your "stay home, working with their own hands, lodging strangers and blessing those in their natural sphere of influence" statement ...but please consider it!
Try this scenario (in your mind). If The Bible is not The Word, then the "how" and the "why" we do everything changes! What, (or better yet Who) is The Word? John said Jesus is! Therefore, if Jesus is The Word, it is important that we hear His voice speaking to us in our hearts. It is just as important to understand that The Word and The Scriptures will always align! Why?
I submit that The Scriptures are meant to be a detailed map as to how we are to live our lives. However, Jesus is to be The Way, The Truth, and The Life. He is The Lamp and The Light! Only He has the step-by-step instructions we (as individuals) must follow. He knows which road on The Map we are to take! Jesus alone knows this for each individual person!
I must hear Him, and follow Him (the relationship thing) for myself ...and He may tell me something totally different than He tells you! He will always keep us within The Map, and we can use The Map to see the roads ...but we must use The Way individually to know which road we (as individuals) are to take!
I just realized all of this!!! This totally frees us from The Bible being a Book of Rules, but still allows us to be able to know The Rules, and how The Ruler wants us to live our lives! How wonderfully exciting!!!
Another way to say this is, "We can memorize all of The Rules in "The Playbook", and still not know which play "The Coach" wants us to make!" We MUST have that relationship we all hear about, and lead others to the same relationship.
posted
Your last image- coach/ playbook expresses it very well indeed! We are never to worship the books, only the One the books tell us about.
We each have our own position to play- naturally, your instructions- block, run, fake, catch, throw, must be different from mine if our team(BODY) is ever to function properly. Yet all the moves for all the players for all the play variations, for all the game situations, are in there somewhere!
It takes a real genius to keep track of all that. It takes a very foolish person to think they can do it themselves.
The best part- our coach is ALWAYS VICTORIOUS.
The playbook shows us what is possible- if we carry out our assignments. Remember there are 2 constants: work together for the good of our team(BODY)- there is no I in team, and- obey The Coach.
posted
OK- I don't know if anyone wants to revive this topic, but I have continued to think about it.
It seems to me as I have read through Acts and the new testament letters that there actually was a great deal of public evangelism going on. In fact, as I have read it seems that many of the big group gatherings mentioned were in fact evangelistic in nature. The small- generally in house- gatherings seemed to revolve around God using each believer to build one another up to love and good works.
We have talked a great deal about the intent of these small "church" gatherings, and how the hierarchy and structure of the traditional church has squelched this intent. What about the large group gatherings we see in the scripture? Are we not to be meeting in similar ways now as well? How do we do this, staying God-centersd vs. man-structured?
These are all just questions- I really don't know! For the most part, I have seen evangelism simply as God shining through me to touch others that He chooses to put into my life- more like Phillip to the Ethiopian. But didn't Phillip also preach the gospel publicaly earlier in that same chapter (Acts ch 8)?
posted
Hey Rich 1, Sorry I missed your post somehow...? It was unintentional I assure you! You said it very well. The only thing I have to add is, wouldn't ministry be a strange thing if everyone was doing the exact same thing!!!
quote: For the most part, I have seen evangelism simply as God shining through me to touch others that He chooses to put into my life- more like Phillip to the Ethiopian. But didn't Phillip also preach the gospel publicaly earlier in that same chapter (Acts ch 8)?
Just goes toward my attempt to make the point that The Lord can use any "tactic" (to borrow Rich's word) to reach the lost. I guess my question is... Why be exclusionary, if Paul wasn't!?!
posted
Hi Jeanne. For our man's breaklfast last Sat. I preped 2 similar passages from Acts which makes your point, plus one other I feel is vital to do true church: 2/46 and 5/42 (made a notation on the back cover)- So continued DAILY with one accord IN THE TEMPLE and breaking bread from HOUSE TO HOUSE. -and(47)the Lord added to the church(Body) DAILY those who were being saved.
Also - And DAILY in the temple, and in EVERY HOUSE, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.
I do believe the house is the most practical place to do real church,it seems it is not the only biblically based place( my friends in Putnam this Sat. may have a problem with that)
My main point- if we do not match their time investment- in whatever place- we are only playing at biblical replication!
posted
OK Rich- preaching at the temple (i.e. the current day traditional sunday church service). In Acts they didn't preach in such a way that got them any invitations. They were generally thrown out of the temple and synagogues and even often stoned. How exactly would this work today? What would be our message?
posted
This is as good a leadin to what I am doing this week, as I could get.
Finished scan of some 12 hours of 2007 so called house church conference, 3 parts by the guys in N.E. I'll see this Sat in Putnam, and feature Job Beresford from England, and the NTRF.
Bob's paper which I picked up in Sutton, Ma. gathering, is called In Defense of Biblical Churches. I would call them biblically correct churches- the basic points we all agree need repair or restoration, including the church/Body sometimes met in houses.
I believe this gives us a direction or message; to call the "churches"/Christian assemblies to biblical correction. I am pleased to see some progress at FBC Pawtucket, but then we had a good foundation.
I will raise this point Saturday. What do you think about this focus, rather than the location debate?
P.S. How "well" would this work? Scripture tells us to expect the usual reception.
quote:Originally posted by JeanneH: How do we do this, staying God-centered vs. man-structured?
These are all just questions- I really don't know!
That is not only the right hit, but the right nail, Jeanne! I don't either. Jesus "went about doing good"... but that was in a pedestrian, village culture where people's whole lives were lived with the outdoors as their family room, pretty much.
We simply don't have an equivalent of Mars Hill, or Mount of Olives now. People in TV evangelism would try to say that tv can serve that way, but... well, it hasn't worked so great yet.
It does seem that Jesus traveled, and taught "by the way", Paul made tents and traveled and taught, "by the way", but Peter jumped into public festivals. They all took advantage of the gathering of people on the Sabbath, but I never see them invite non-Jews to go to synagogue, nor tell Jews to "go to synagogue more often".
IF WE CAN FIGURE THIS OUT, WE CAN WRITE THE NEXT BOOK!
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