Ecclesiastes is so intriguing because of its seeming mixed message: at the end of a falling away from God, evidently Solomon returned to a simplicity regarding things of faith. But, at the same time, he seems to have been hardened into cynicism.
Some would say that Ecclesiastes should be read as a warning of a licentious lifestyle, that Solomon was not writing the Truth as written by a man of God, but rather as a man "wise in the ways of the world" who has lost his grip.
At the same time, much of what he says is consistent with the rest of scripture.
I don't know the answer, but I would read it as, "Don't be righteous in your own eyes, or show off your righteousness in front of others. A humble servant is more winsome for the Kingdom than a religious Pharisee."
Or, to put it in the vernacular:
NOBODY LIKES A PRIG OR A SMARTY-PANTS!
Blessings! Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
I'll weigh in on this one if I may. Complete righteousness is not achieved through an effort to be more righteous. The same goes for wisdom. Talk about vexation of spirit! However, people know that there is more to it than that and can be tempted to try harder and harder till their wheels fall off, so to speak. We can kill ourselves trying to be perfect. Or, at least beat ourselves up over it. Remember the monastic movement; They sitting up on poles or living in caves so that no impure thought would enter into them. No amount of effort in producing righteousness can make us fully righteous. That's where grace comes in. The rich young ruler exemplifies this by his questions. We are very limited on how far we can go in the way of righteousness. But through Christ and the way of holiness, heaven becomes the limit. We get to walk in a power that has already overcome the world! Amen.
Knowledge is never satisfied either. You can't read all the books in the world and know everything. You'd kill yourself trying that too. I hope that helps.
We are currently talking about this area of doctrine on the "there's rank in the Church" thread.
posted
"We are very limited on how far we can go..." you say.
I have to agree, John. Without Him, we can do nothing. In Him, the life-giving Vine, we can and do bear fruit.
I believe we are both lacking in desire and ability without his Spirit working in us. Here is the dual dynamic in a single passage:
Philippians 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as YOU have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is GOD who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
This too:, from days of old:
Lamentations 5:21: Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned.
posted
Great thoughts! I like the way the NLT translates that verse- "...Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. For God is working in you, giving you the DESIRE and the POWER to do what pleases him."
I think being over rightous refers to those who try to rely on their own rightousness- Christ said he did not come to save the rightous, but the sinner (of course no one is rightous, we are all sinners- but the over rightous just don't see themselves accurately). I think the over wise are similar- those who rely on their own wisdom, rather than accept their own limitations and rely on God's instead. I personaly know people who are held back spiritually because of their high IQ's.
posted
I enjoy these periods in the café. Just want to add a thought.
People who are highly-educated (Jeanne, I assume you meant this group when you mentioned high IQ?) tend to rely on their own wisdom rather than God's. They act very self-sufficient. This is pride and their reliance on their wisdom is idolatry. They are placing themselves above God. Thus, they have another god before the One, True God. Yet, the imbecile isn't free of this either. (Just thinking out-loud about Jeanne's comment.)
I find it curious that the NLT uses this phraseology, ""...Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear." But I think they put it into the correct context with this, "For God is working in you, giving you the DESIRE and the POWER to do what pleases him." Obviously, these are the works of faith. Of this type are those works which we do because we believe the second part of this verse--that God is working in us. But I can't help thinking that some will regard this as legalism since it involves us working.
I am not convinced we have rightly interpreted what it means to be overly righteous. It just seems like too easy and trite an answer and doesn't seem to reflect the author's true intent. Let's think on this some more. Maybe we could use some commentaries to help? I would like to see a better explanation. I don't have one.
It does appear that he is talking about moderation, balance, and a "time for everything." He mentions many things not to take to excess. Yet, why would he restrain anyone from being "better" since he talks about no one being "good."
This has puzzled me for some time. Right now I need to consider not being awake over much. Was awakened by the storm. Night!
posted
The Hebrew Interlinear cleared this all up with the simple addition of the verse before it and the one following. Here we go:
Ecclesiastes 7:15 In all I saw in days of vanity of me is righteous perishing in righteous of him and is wicked longing in evil of him. 7:16 Must not you are being righteous too much and must not thinking self wise surplus to what? 7:17 Must not you are being wicked to much and must not you are being silly to what? you shall die in not time of you.
This sounds nothing like the way we talk today, but may I!?!
15) "I saw all of this in my days of vanity: The self righteous are parishing in their "righteousness" and the wicked are longing in their evil." 16) "Don't think yourself so righteous or wise. What do you gain?" 17) "You must not be wicked or silly. To what [end are these things]? You will die before your time!"
How is that for a wise and Biblical fit? How did I do John 2?
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
-It does appear that he is talking about moderation, balance, and a "time for everything." He mentions many things not to take to excess. Yet, why would he restrain anyone from being "better" since he talks about no one being "good."-
I like this answer. Ecclesiastes is a funny book in that the thought process, or a least the way the thoughts are put together, are rather foreign sounding. Like someone who has English as his second language.
Matthew, nice go! A fine English rendering I must say. I find your use of parishing instead of perishing rather intriguing. What about all those parisheners? I think you may be interpreting new things into the verse. Of course this is heretical-yet interesting nonetheless.
We know that the law of righteousness gives us the right standard of conduct without providing the power to accomplish it. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. Unlike most people I believe in a group called the righteous. These are innocent of self-righteousness, yet they fall short of accomplishing the law. For example Jesus did not come to call the righteous to repentance but the sinners (habitual).
"They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2:17
Jesus is not talking about the self-righteous here. The problem arises when one tries to be righteous in order to appear righteous. This is hypocrisy or acting. We call this being self-righteous. Is this being righteous over-much? I don't think the good Samaritan is of this type, do you? It is interesting that so many of our celebrities are actors. We like being fooled. How else could an actor like Benny Hinn make over 200 million a year? But I digress.
This idea af a group called the rightous is intreguing, but I am not sure I agree. I do believe there are those who are "God fearers", or "persons of peace"- who are seekig God, but have not come to understand the gospel yet, but I am not sure this is what you are talking about.
I would disagree with you about Mark 2:17. This is spoken by Jesus, to the pharises, after the pharises had complained about Jesus hanging out with Mathew the tax collector and his friends. I think it is clear from many passages that Jesus reguarded the pharises as self-rightous. I think Jesus is saying here that He has come to call those who realize that they are sinners, as those are the ones who will hear and respond to His call. Of course any of the self-rightous pharises could have fallen into this category at any point- when they realized that they too were sinners.
Mathew- thank you again for posting the greek! When you interpret this verse as speaking of the self- rightous, I supose you are getting that from "perishing in rightous of him". This makes sense to me- and makes me smile thinking what we really need is to have the rightousness of Him!
quote:John 2 said: Matthew, nice go! A fine English rendering I must say. I find your use of parishing instead of perishing rather intriguing. What about all those parisheners? I think you may be interpreting new things into the verse. Of course this is heretical-yet interesting nonetheless.
Oops! I am dyslexic. This equals horrid speller. This is the second time someone has pointed out a mistake due to my dyslexia that has had an interesting twist. I find this very amusing! That was not intentional I assure you! I had better be careful, of folks hear may start calling me a prophet!
quote:It is interesting that so many of our celebrities are actors. We like being fooled. How else could an actor like Benny Hinn make over 200 million a year? But I digress.
John
I think I had better let this one go. If The Lord can use a donkey, well then...
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
quote:Originally posted by JeanneH: Mathew- thank you again for posting the greek! When you interpret this verse as speaking of the self- rightous, I supose you are getting that from "perishing in rightous of him". This makes sense to me- and makes me smile thinking what we really need is to have the rightousness of Him!
I was thinking while typing all of that out how interesting it is that The Bible agrees with Itself throughout (Old and New). The problem is all in the little him, just as you point out!
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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How did I do John 2?
