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From the Editor of Joel News and a similar account on the home page of Dawn Europe, etc:
quote: The organic church guys from North America broke the rules again: instead of a Powerpoint with numbers they took a collective time-out to model simple church - basically listening to Jesus and doing what He says. It touched me to see three ex-megapastors, one ex-normal pastor and a seminary professor do just that. No program, just Jesus. John White challenged us with what he calls 'the leadership solution', daily praying the Luke 10:2b prayer for laborers, together with a soul mate. Since he started doing this, and teaching this organic principle to other believers, God sent people on his way, one after the other, asking advice on how to plant churches, and he could simply coach them in doing that. This way, the simple church networks in the States are growing exponentially.
While 530 simple churches were planned 'in faith' for 2005, they hit the 6,000 mark. While they intended to train 530 church planters in 2005, they saw 1,000 church planters trained in the first two months of 2006 alone. With this kind exponential growth (the current growth rate is 70%) they could reach their target of 4 million simple churches in North America (400,000 networks, 40,000 network coaches, 4,000 lead coaches) by the year 2018. Then they still have two years left to rest from their labors.
In a message dated 8/14/2007 10:12:14 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time -----Original Message----- From: D Anderson Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:24 AM To: DAWN USA
Greetings,
I am very interested in studying, visiting, and writing at length about the house churches and church planters reported by DAWN. I just had a few quick questions for the present.
Is there a detailed report already available? I would be happy to link to it in my research which will result in a free on-line paper. What are the 2007 numbers and where are these churches concentrated in the USA? Who is keeping these records? Who is the "they" which trained 1,000 church planters in two months?
Much, much thanks in advance,
David Anderson Bristol, TN
quote: On Aug 14, 2007, at 1:45 PM, (withheld) wrote:
Dear David,
I'm afraid we won't be much help in providing the numbers you requested. We have attempted over the years to estimate the number of house churches in North America. However, we have slowly come to the conclusion that it is an impossible task and perhaps not even that necessary. For instance, we did a study of just the state of Colorado and were able to identify 13 networks of 5 to 10 house churches. We were quite sure there were many times that number but it just took too much time to track them all down.
Perhaps you have seen the little article comparing the reproductive capacities of elephants (traditional churches) and rabbits (house churches). Not only are rabbits way more prolific than elephants. They are also much more difficult to count. You will have no difficulty determining the number of elephants in a large field. Counting the rabbits is another story.
Rather than trying to keep track of rabbits, we have felt that our calling was to do all we can to pray for, identify, connect and support the apostolic church planters. Currently there are about 120 of those folks that we are connect with. Our feeling is that if those people are healthy, the number of healthy churches will increase naturally and spontaneously.
In reference to the "1000 church planters trained in two months", Mike Steele said that had mostly to do with a large gathering in Norway a couple of years ago led by Neil Cole. The attendance at that training event was combined with several smaller training events in the US to come up with 1000.
I'm sure you are familiar with George Barna's book Revolution. That's the only source that we know of that even begins to estimate the number of house churches in the US. And, he is, of course, only extrapolating from sample groups.
Again, I'm sorry I can't be of more help.
(name withheld)
Me again. I've been trying to track down this unprecedented work of the Holy Spirit via house churches for awhile now. I doubt that it is occurring in Norway as Marc, cited above, is from that part of the world. Have you seen it anywhere?
The original report of "exponential growth" was more than 2 years ago. What would the numbers be now?
The article mentions John White from CO- My husband and I met him a couple of years ago during the time God was putting it on our hearts to plant a church. At the time I remember him asking us if we were planting a house church and we said we weren't sure. Anyway, here we are- part of a house church of course. When I read Organic Church- he was brought up as someone who regularly prayed for house church leaders in CO, as is also refered to in the above article. I can't help but to think that my husband and I are answers to his prayers- and he doesn't even know it! Which means we wouldn't have been counted- we are one of those hard to count rabbits I suppose:).
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I've also communicated with John White, and the four churches we are networked with certainly haven't been counted as part of anything. I haven't gotten back to him to report progress since I talked to him about getting started in the right direction.
B. Hogan has run into this documentation challenge: people go to Erdenet, Mongolia to try to "see" the house church network, and then conclude his numbers are bogus - but how do you count? Go door to door and say, "Are there any God worshippers here? Do you have a building or do you fellowship with other believers...?" (See his book "There's a sheep in my bathtub!" at http://www.asteroideabooks.com/page4.htm)
When you realize that what God wants is "Productive Households who Love Him", it becomes very difficult to document those who actually really are that!
When we first got started, we were trying to decide what to call ourselves. And my husband, as he got his mind around the Word, said, "We are not going to JOIN anything and we are not going to CALL IT ANYTHING!" and so it has been! We are just being, every day, the kind of family that "Loves Jesus and Obeys His Commands". Which pretty much precludes joining a program or network, because as soon as we did that we'd lose the flexibility to obey the Spirit's leading for our own family!
We also pretty much refuse to attend any conferences, training, etc. We are finding the Bible to be truly "all we need for life and godliness" and think these things are better modeled in our home than at a hotel.
God has also given me peace that if we do it right, what we accomplish will be pretty much invisible to all but Him. The glory is going to Jesus.
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
We also sat down as a group to decide upon a name early on and was convicted that God wasn't leading us to come up with a name. When it comes up we just say we are part of a church that meets in our house- others say they are part of a house church that meets in Superior. This always brings up quite a discussion- one time I remember because of the look on one of my neighbors faces I said, Kinda wierd, hu? She said- yea, thats just what I was thinking!
About the training/conferences/network thing. I would love some advice! From LA- but also from everyone! For the past yr and a half we have done very little along these lines. We felt that we needed to focus as a group on God and allow him to lead us through the word and His Spirit. It is kinda like the advice I got early on as a believer- to have a Bible without commentary notes in to read regularly- only allowing myself to read commentaries after I felt I had heard from the Lord myself. I think this advice has served me well as I have learned how to go to the Word and expect God to show up and answer my questions himself, and to speak to me. He always has!! Then, as I have read or heard from someone elses opinion, I am delighted when they agree as I see how God is leading others in the same way as he is leading me. But, this part of the process of reading or talking to others to glean from them I think has also been important. I feel a bit like we may be in this place as a house church. We have allowed the Lord to speak to us and guide us- we have learned a TON together from the Word, and slowly detoxed from the IC model and learned how to worship Him in a participatorial way. But now I am wondering if the time might be right to hear from and learn from others experience and knowlege.
Is this making any sense, and does anyone have any insight?
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Dear Jeanne, I find this very odd. Why wouldn't you want to name your fellowship? How about "The Paul, Apollos, Peter, and Christ House Church"? Don't you think you need a name to fellowship together? How very odd...
What are you trying to prove anyway? That what was written in 1 Corinthians 3:4 is true? How very odd...
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Jeanne, you are such a kindred spirit! I think it is so wondrous how God is speaking the exact same things to others... You are pretty cool, too, Matthew!
I think the minute we name it, we "put boundaries around it".
Person A:"Are you part of the Church at Joe's House?" B: Well, Joe ate at our house last week,and prayed, and shared the Word, I talked to Mrs. Joe on the phone this morning, and our son is marrying their daughter... does that make us _part of it_ even if we don't go to their discipleship meeting on Friday nights?"
"The church at Ephesus" probably meant absolutely everyone in reach of any other believer there. Paul's letters would have been passed around, even read to people from Antioch who were believers "just passing through". It was a web, not a group. They probably sent the word out through the network that "We've had a letter from Paul! Let's gather at Judah's house to hear it!" and of course, Paul told them "read each other's letters" so we know they also passed from community to community via the traveling evangelists.
Obviously, a person has to hear from God about things like conferences, meetings, etc. We have attended a "let's gather all the house churches and have big shots there to tell us what's going on" and it went nowhere. Although the hosts claimed to want to grow a network, they really still had a "group mentality" that wouldn't cooperate with others. I tried to help people who lived near them join their network, and they wouldn't return phone calls or make it happen. Wanna hear "weird"? The leaders bought a bigger house to fit more people in their living room! Not quite clear on the concept!!!
Even in the old model, conferences and such tended to give everybody a big rush and then send them home unchanged and addicted to adrenalin that made regular gatherings seem dull by comparison. It's a judgment call. Conferences also tend to be a way to draw a circle and try to get people into it. What if we disagree on something fundamental? Does that mean someone's wrong? It creates an insider/outsider right/wrong thing that just doesn't happen if our friends want to do more Viola teaching and we want to do more Brian Hogan modeling.
What we've done for affirmation, confirmation and challenge is to try to meet with other families in their home where "everybody is on the same level at the cross", people we meet here on the forums, or by word of mouth or in the community. Challenge does happen. My favorite one was when a builder committed to house church in his own family sat in our living room talking about "building church buildings on a missions trip" and had the light go on suddenly, like, "Wait a minute! Why am I doing that????" ROFLOL!
Some examples of how this has looked with us: One couple knew a shut-in, who is a true eldress of the Church - she and her husband were planting churches in homes in the 50's. We went to her house to "Be the Kingdom with her. She told of her church planting days. Unfortunately, they then built buildings, but she remembered the house church days as "the good old days" and was such a blessing to us with what she had to share.
We meet from time to time with people we've met through this forum, and we just invite various people to connect in our home. "What is God saying" doesn't require a lot of people or a big venue if it's really God. We also sometimes have a big event, such as a Highland Games day or New Year's Day Bohemian Salon, and try to invite both HCers and ICers and plant the seed that "if we do Acts 2:42, we just had church!"
Another couple was just exiting church-as-we-knew it and needed encouragement, so we went into their home. We had a great time, and some prophetic insights for them, and they thanked us - and then we never needed to meet again because we had given them that little bit of on-site, real-time next-step advice.
On the other hand, we did attend an "inside the box" gathering last fall, because we knew there would be like-minded World Christians there, whom we wanted to both challenge with "Get out of the box!" and to network with. We also have very few in our life who REALLY get it about both house church AND God's Global Vision, so we wanted that infusion of vision. God made it very clear with several confirmations that this was the right time to set aside our general rule of "no big meetings", kind of in the same way that Jesus and Paul went to the synagogue: NOT to join it, but to recruit out of it! I ruffled feathers by pointing out that we had "successfully preached the gospel American Christians REALLY believe in", in India - the new Caste system is based on EDUCATION instead of Love.
I guess to summarize, we've settled on a "rules were made to be broken" position. We have as a rule "no names, no big meetings, no hierarchy". But if God leads us to do something specific we do. For example, our friends are having a Sunday meeting as a transition from IC to house network that is a bit of a compromise in our opinion, but it's right for the people they are ministering to who haven't quite let go of "what time is church?" thinking.
Personally, from everything you shared here, I think you, Jeanne, need to LEAD a conference, not attend one!
Blessings, LA
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
What you said makes a lot of sense- I like the "rules were meant to be broken" position! As well as your rules "no names, no big big meetings, no heirarchy", although I think I would hold to the 1st and 3rd rules more tightly than to the 2nd.
It is interesting- the last thing I did in the IC was to run a womens retreat (I had done it for a nuber of years)- amazingly, that was less than 2 years ago- although I did it with a bit of a heavy heart. Yes- each year I saw a lot of charged up women, but didn't see a whole lot of lasting change or growth in their lives in the months that followed. Recently I have been having some deep conversations with a good friend of mine who is planting a traditional church with her husband in our neighborhood. We have been discussing the whole large group/ small group stuff which has been helping me to think through it all more deeply. My current position is that big group meetings- including hearing from 1 or 2 individuals up front is a bit like frosting on a cupcake. If we are actively growing in a personal rel. with the Lord, suplemented by meeting with other believes in a small group- participatory style- than an occasional large meeting with all that it offers can add a certain something to all we are already learning. The problem is that most christians are like toddlers, who are content to lick the frosting off the top and throw the cupcake away. A bit of a sugar rush, but not much substance.
Which brings me to another question- if we do decide to seek out some sort of conference or other training oppertunity, does anyone have any recomendations?
Not to change the subject- but I wanted to share with you all a passage that I read this past week that has really encouraged me (in the midst of wondering what God is doing in and through our little group- and if we will ever multiply). It is from Zechariah ch 4, which is a prophesy of the rebuilding of the temple. You'll have to read it, but it shares much language with how Christ talked about the building of the Kingdom and how the NT talks about how the Church is built. Vs 6 says to Zarabbabel in reguards to the temple rebuiling- that it is not by force or by strength, but by God's spirit. So- although God uses people to build his kingdom- it is NOT by their strength-but by His Spirit that true building happens. It then talks of laying the foundation and placing the capstone- both we know is Christ in the Church. Here is where I was especially touched- in vs. 10 when it is speaking of the importance of the foundation- "Do not despise these small beginnings, for the Lord rejoices to see the work begin". WOW- I needed to hear that!!!
quote:Originally posted by Laurie Ann: Jeanne, you are such a kindred spirit! I think it is so wondrous how God is speaking the exact same things to others... You are pretty cool, too, Matthew!
quote:Originally posted by JeanneH What you said makes a lot of sense- I like the "rules were meant to be broken" position!
AARGH!!! What's wrong with you people!!! If this heresy keep up here, I'm gonna have to change my tag line! What right do you have calling me "COOL" Laurie Ann!?! And Jeanne, what's the big idea with "break the religious rules" stuff!?! I can't believe you people! What are you trying to do, give me hope or something!?!
May The Lord repay you for your works! Be blessed, both of you!!!
Doesn't every gathering of believers in truth have a "name." Else, how would you invite someone to meet with you? The church at Jeanne's house, or the church at Laurie's house, etc.
I realize that many here have come out of abusive religious atmospheres and there always seems to be a period of healing involved. But do we really want to seem to promote breaking of rules. Won't this transcend your religious experience and work its way into your home life? What if you children adopted this principle?
We are admonished to think on pure things, things of good report. (Php 4:8) Instead of talking about your past experiences in a negative tone such as "breaking rules" why not speak of it in more positive language? e.g. "I want to show my love for Christ by keeping all of His commandments and the traditions of men conflicted with my desire to please Him." (Jn 14:15; 8:29). I would think this would be a better principle to teach your children than an attitude of "rules are meant to be broken." While I understand the usage of the phrase in the context, I honestly believe that it is very strong language and may be the only thing some people bring away.
You can tell someone to keep the commandments or you can tell someone to break the religious rules but all is vanity. It profits nothing without charity.
Love . . . it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong]. It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail. Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening]. Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. (1Cor 3:6,7).
Sometimes we sound so cynical. It tends to remind me of the politician who has nothing positive to say about himself so he criticizes his opponent.
God's kingdom is based on love for one another--even those whom are considered our enemies. (I dare say that it is probably more profitable for a Christian to show love for an enemy than for a close friend.) A person who says they love God yet hates another person is in reality a liar. You cannot love God, whom you have not seen, while hating someone you have seen. (1 John 4:20).
Many things you have written here are very positive and up-building. Those are profitable.
quote: JQ. QUESTION: “Doesn't every gathering of believers in truth have a "name?" Else, how would you invite someone to meet with you? The church at Jeanne's house, or the church at Laurie's house, etc.”
M. ANSWERE: No. Saying, “We are meeting in Fred’s house this week.” doesn’t mean it is “Fred’s church.” The Church is every believer. On this topic please read 1Cor. 1:12 and 1Cor. 3:4. Also, using your address (and having them use MapQuest) is really a good way to invite someone to your home.
quote: JQ. QUESTION: I realize that many here have come out of abusive religious atmospheres and there always seems to be a period of healing involved. But do we really want to seem to promote breaking of rules.
M. ANSWERE: Yes we do! It is a wonderful thing to break away from the religious rules that the church has imposed on believers over the last 2000 years!
quote: JQ. QUESTION: Won't this transcend your religious experience and work its way into your home life? What if you children adopted this principle?
M. ANSWERE: Oh, I hope it totally destroys ANY religious anything!!! It’s all about relationship, not religion. I pray my children all grow up without ANY religious anything as well!!!
quote: JQ. QUESTION: We are admonished to think on pure things, things of good report. (Php 4:8) Instead of talking about your past experiences in a negative tone such as "breaking rules" why not speak of it in more positive language? e.g. "I want to show my love for Christ by keeping all of His commandments and the traditions of men conflicted with my desire to please Him." (Jn 14:15; 8:29). I would think this would be a better principle to teach your children than an attitude of "rules are meant to be broken." While I understand the usage of the phrase in the context, I honestly believe that it is very strong language and may be the only thing some people bring away.
M. ANSWERE: You are correct, this is very strong language. Want some more? Read Acts 4:18-21. Notice who was being spoken to? The Jewish religious leaders. Want some more? Just type in: hypocrite, whited sepulchers, vipers, graves, blind, and swine. into your Bible search and see what Jesus Himself had to say to the religious. There are probably more, these are Just the ones that came to mind at 1:10 in the morning.
quote: JQ. STATEMENT: You can tell someone to keep the commandments or you can tell someone to break the religious rules but all is vanity. It profits nothing without charity. *snip* (1Cor 3:6,7).
M. QUESTION: Therefore, we can conclude from the case you have built on ONE quotation from The Bible that any time Jesus spoke the truth, and called someone a hypocrite, whited sepulchers, vipers, graves, blind, swine, etc. or had the courage to tell an entire city that it’s judgment would be worse that Sodom’s etc. that Jesus was not walking in love? What was Paul doing when he said “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works.” Was that love? How about when Paul said “But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.” I’ve got more…
quote: JQ. STATEMENT: Sometimes we sound so cynical. It tends to remind me of the politician who has nothing positive to say about himself so he criticizes his opponent.
M. QUESTION: Is this an insinuation, or an outright accusation?
quote: JQ. STATEMENT: God's kingdom is based on love for one another--even those whom are considered our enemies. (I dare say that it is probably more profitable for a Christian to show love for an enemy than for a close friend.) A person who says they love God yet hates another person is in reality a liar. You cannot love God, whom you have not seen, while hating someone you have seen. (1 John 4:20).
M. CLOSING STATEMENT: God is both The Lion and The Lamb. He is Love, but He is also The Judge. Heaven and Hell both exist for all eternity. Jesus was asked, “What is truth?” but He was and is The Truth. Speaking truth is never wrong. Jesus did it, the [apostles] did it, Paul did it, and we are doing it. The truth is, the church is so distorted from what it is called to be, that it is no better than the religious establishments of Jesus' day that crucified Jesus. The reason I post as “a heretic for Christ” is because I get treated like a heretic when I make statements in the church that are perfectly Biblical. The church is corrupt, and has gone off seeking the world’s riches and has left her first love. We don’t hate anyone. We just hate the fact that the church is not what it is called to be.
quote:Originally posted by Laurie Ann: "Jesus did not come to institute a new religion. He came to Abolish Religion FOREVER!"
I don’t know how much of my dribble you have read Laurie Ann, but kinda the “last straw” with me going to the institutionalized church was my getting hit with Hebrews 10:24-25. King James reads, "And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
This is a wonderfully clear command that obligates everyone to drag themselves to church every time the doors are opened. It worked on me for years. Then I opened a Greek Interlinear and began to read for myself.
The fact that these scriptures, and the ones surrounding them, perfectly fit what Jesus told us to do, (go and make disciples) shocked me. That's a sad commentary on the church today. I was actually shocked that The Bible supported Jesus' teachings instead of the churches! This is what religion will do to you.
What I found (this is how the English actually reads right under the Greek) reads odd to us, but it is very interesting. (verse 24) "And we may be down-minding (reminding) one another into beside-sharpening of love and of ideal acts." (verse 25) "No abandoning the on together-leading of themselves according as custom to any, but beside-calling and to so much, rather as much as you are looking nearing The Day."
When I saw “beside-sharpening,” “together-leading,” and “beside-calling” I knew I never had to enter a church building EVER again! This wording perfectly describes discipleship, not sitting in a pew, “with your ears open, my mouth shut, and my head empty” as I like to say.
The truth is, I have heard all of the arguments jqlogan presents (to my shame, I have even used many of them myself). The truth is the church is powerless, but claims power and authority by holding a "poorly worded" Bible over people‘s heads, to get them to “act” any way they see fit.
Also, please let me add here, that one of my pet peeves is the “be nice gospel.” Jesus wasn’t always “nice.” He was everything we should be. He never spoke a harsh word to the hurting, but He offended, and offended, and offended the religious leaders of His day, until they finally had Him killed. Well, that’s my story …and I’m sticking to it!
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I for one am not mad at the IC, nor do I consider myself as someone who had especially negitive experiences in the IC- I only use the term IC cause everyone understands it and it's easy to type- I am not meaning it in a deragatory way.
Nothing horrible happened to me in the IC other than I was being slowly lulled into a state of lukewarmity, along with rest of the majority of American christians. (Actually- God says he wants to spit the lukewarm out of his mouth, so perhaps it is a bit of a horrible experience). The other thing that can happen to believers(usually those in leadership) in a typical IC setting is that pride and selfish ambition can set in- I experienced this in myself as well. That is because we are either leading the programs and worship experience (in a way that is structured so that it is easily done in our own strength), or we are passively watching it being done.
Prophesy hinted at, Christ spoke of, and the early church modeled a way of relating to God both personally and corporately in a way that is radically different. The old way isn't "bad", and God can and does use it, but the new way is better! It reminds me of a quote I heard once- "good is often the greatest enemy to the best"- or something like that.
As far as rule following vs. breaking, by saying "we have a policy of rules were meant to be broken" was not spoken out of anger or hurt, but out of a desire to become the kind of a church that follows in the "new way of the spirit". Actually this is the way God has always wanted us to follow him, He gave Israel the law because they wanted it (their ancestors had served and followed Him quite well without it), and He only gave them a king (not the King) because they demanded it. When we see God leading His people throughout the Bible He does it in strange ways that rarely repeat themselves ie. Moses strikes the rock to bring forth water, then the next time is told to speak to the rock to bring forth water (which of course he doesn't do, instead relying on how it was done the last time). Israel defeats a nation one time by marching around the city and blowing a horn, then another time does it by having Moses' staff held up in the air.... Jesus heals once by making spit mud, than another by speaking the word from miles away...
Following rules is something that is possible to do in our own strength (well only to a degree- we will of course fail at it- which is exactly what God wants to happen so that we will learn to stop relying on ourselves and will instead turn to him). Keeping a "rules are meant to be broken" policy keeps us open to the Spirits leading- it is "denying ourselves daily, picking up our cross and following Jesus"!
By not naming our groups, we are seeking to avoid divisions (what Mathew was joking about in his first post in this thread), and keep unity amoung all believers. As well as avoid pride- "welcome to Glen and Jeanne's Church"- EWWWWWW!
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Jeanne, you are so much more gracious than I can be. Someone started to tell me how wonderful Sunday Night Service was at their church, and I yelled, "STOP". I knew she wasn't ready to hear how I REALLY feel... speaking of provoking
Yes, Matthew, that "forsake not" has to be taken into historical and biblical context. I now know that it means, "Hang together with other believers, and don't give up the gospel just because a couple of you have been kidnapped, tortured and murdered over it. Jesus is worth it!" Hebrews was being written to a persecuted church about how to survive, not to comfortable people with too much time and money on their hands. It was written to people tempted to repudiate their faith and fearful of being caught talking about the gospel, not people who only came to church 2ce a week instead of 3. Phew! Don't get me started!
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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Hey Laurie Ann, I agree, I have found Jeanne to be one of the most gracious and patient people I have ever spoken to in MY LIFE!
Speaking on the subject of "religious" church attendance, I kinda got hammered a little (they still don't really know me) at my home church men's group. I opened up to them about some anger ...no, a lot of anger, that I have toward what was done to me in the church (long story, I'll tell you if you want). They admonished me that The Bible never promised a "Christian rose garden." I stopped them right then and there. I went back to: quitting three jobs, and going on the mission field three different times. How I "flushed my BA down the toilet" to work with children. I quit another job, and turned down a "dream job" with a sheriff's department to work in a children's home. I had three days off a month. Later I moved again, not knowing anyone, and was living in an old 1979 motor home I had fixed up in Pennsylvania. I lived in that truck (eventually taking in a meth addict I had known since he was a child) during two winters, and was getting paid $125.00 a month by a little church and working nights as a janitor. I made less than $2000.00 one year, and nothing another. I explained how I always (from 1994 on) followed what I felt was The Lord's leading, no matter the cost, AND loved every minute of it!!! I truly felt I was right there! They shut up. I felt like Paul must have felt when he said, "I have spoken like a fool, you have compelled me!"
See, the thing is, I want to get you started. I want to understand what others have suffered so that I know I'm not alone. BUT ONLY if it would help you to talk about it, I don't want to cause you any more pain. The things that happened to me and my friends (two pastors I know and consider my friends) have caused me to question everything I have ever heard The Bible said. I am getting free from this [insert bad word to your liking], and I didn't even know I was in bondage! What a horrible statement about the church! The truth is,
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Perhaps you are one extreme, and I am another, Matthew. I had very few problems with "church". From the time I was a little girl, I loved and enjoyed everything about it. People have always groveled gratefully at how much work I do, flattered me for how wonderful I am (I too, brag like a fool ) told me I am brilliant and talented.... oh, and Anointed, of course! Everyone knew the Powells could be counted on. We had pastors dash off the platform to welcome us to the church, received engraved plaques after very short times of ministry... My gifts are the ones the church values (teaching and music) and gives the glory, so I always got way more kudos than I deserved.
We were only driven out of one church, and that was by a new pastor who was threatened by how much influence we had, and the Lord graciously got us out of there by moving us 2000 miles, so no one had to "know" there was a problem. Even then, we could get a great reference from that pastor - he just didn't want our ideas at planning meetings. No hurt, just humorous chagrin.
Yet, at the end of the day, all we had to show for all our effort was a great reputation with believers, which didn't seem to be winning any UNbelievers to Christ. What went on inside the walls was having no impact whatsoever.
So, people tend to think we must have quit church because we didn't like it, or we were bitter, or hurt or something. No - if church was a club, we'd be the president. If church was a team we'd be the cheering captains. If church was a school, we'd be the principals. If church was a band, we'd be lead vocalists.
But Church is Jesus in our home, the Spirit in our community, God the Father organizing a rescue effort to go to the trailer parks and the nations. The Kingdom of God is not a beautiful place to go, interesting people to see and fun things to do, it's a war going on. I just can't justify trying to write yet another curriculum to try to entertain bored Covenant Kids, or to try to convert the children of the godless, knowing that those things will never do what one hour of learning to cook healthy food in my kitchen with a challenge to obey Jesus by forgiving will do.
Whether the honored few, or the neglected minority, church-as-usual just isn't doing right by the people who show up there. It's just not what he had in mind!
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
The vast majority of churches are asleep. No doubt about it. Could this mean we are in the time of the Ten Virgins? We should be straining to hear the faint cry from a long way off that "Behold, the Bridegroom cometh!" Or, better yet, become part of the procession proclaiming His soon coming?
You wrote about entertaining bored Covenant kids. Doesn't scripture speak of Jesus as the Good Shepherd who left the 99 in the fold to seek to save the one? The only problem I have with this is that the 99 in the fold are probably just as in need of saving as the one who is missing. Else, if they were filled wouldn't they be dispersing the message into the world as well instead of sitting contently in their pews?
When Jesus came His first work was for the lost sheep of Israel. He said many times that He came exclusively to save them, to confirm the New Covenant with them and not the dogs. They considered themselves safely in the fold and guaranteed of salvation by virtue of their position in life--something most church goers believe as well. I believe that the time is soon coming when thousands in these churches will awake and grab the banner of Christ and wave it high. They will come out of these churches. Have they not been trickling out already? Is the house church movement the beginning of this great awakening or is it a false revival which precedes the great awakening? Some are true I am convinced. But I am also convinced that their will be the false with the true in every line of work until persecution revives again.
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I understand what you are talking about. I was never musical (I took piano for eight years, and can only play "The Marines' Hymn"... I took guitar for four, and can only play "Amazing grace"). However, I was "worshiped" (in a way) because I have the ability to relate with children. All children! I started working with them when I was still one of them, and I guess that helps! I always got the "I wish my children were like Matthew" stuff. But then in 1994 I finally had The Lord show up (quite powerfully) and I really fell in love with Him. That shook me out of the leave-me-alone, let-me-tithe, I-wanna-live-the-American-dream (nice house, 2.5 kids) and be-a-good-Christian stuff. I became "sold out" I guess you call it, and truly began to learn how to love those who "didn't deserve it." The "dark time" didn't start until 2003. We "felt led" to go to a [Christian] children's home, and then a huge mega-ministry to work "for The Lord." The truth is, we were abused at both places. I handled the children's home to my satisfaction. However, a novice Christian man did my wife, my daughter, and I great harm at the mega-ministry... and the attacks continued the whole time we were there. We left with no job, and little money (we were out of debt at the time) and moved to a small town in PA. My wife got a great job, but got attacked in her work place. After seeking justice, we fled there, leaving our house empty. My wife was again attacked in her workplace, reported it, and was "laid off" and then black balled by the company for her troubles so she couldn't transfer. We were again forces to leave. Then we came here (Alabama) and things have started getting better. However, up until January of this year we were "in battle" without a break. We were tired, and I was "church burned." Then we started walking across the road to go to church here. The folks were friendly, and we were welcomed ...until I started reading The Bible for myself. "By mistake" I got into The Greek Interlinear and found what I thought was error being taught in the church (I had grown up working with children in this denomination) the pastor agreed, but continued right along with what he was teaching. We left. Having been raised in church, I expected to be shunned as a threat and a heretic. After all, how could anyone disagree with the [pastor]!!! But my wife did not expect the treatment we got, because she was not raised in church. The truth is, because we live right across the street, we had visitors almost every Sunday. (You know, let go eat out somewhere, then hang out at Matthew's until night service) Well, of course, that all ended. Again, I expected it. My wife did not. Well, we are now cautiously going to a house church. We have met a family we both really like (nice, intelligent, and articulate). But we are cautious. There are things that still "smack of church" [the dark side] but there is much more that is fresh and new! My hope is slowly being restored. Posting here has helped. I have gone from feeling like a heretic, to feeling right at home. Thanks for you time. I type with two fingers and my thumbs, so I don't take anyones posts for granted. I'm defiantly not looking for a place to attack the church. I truly enjoy hearing how people get to where they are at. One of my favorite places in The Bible is where Jesus tell the man that had Legion cast out of him to "go and tell what great things The Lord has done for you and how He has had compassion on you." Thanks for sharing!
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I don't know how much you have read on the "emergent/emerging church", Jq, but if you lay the principles of Emerging Church beside Simple Church beside the Bible, it is pretty evident that if this is the time of the "falling away by deception" that the Emerging Church is a much more likely candidate!
Institutional Church as we know it will continue to fade away, in America as in Europe and Asia: it will become museum pieces attended by a handful of blue-haired old ladies and the grandchildren in their care. Elsewhere in the world, people have concluded that going to such a place has no relevance for them, because the gospel doesn't apply to them in any meaningful way. They are secularists, and aren't afraid of demons and hell anymore, so they aren't willing to go to church just to "buy off God", which is what used to fill the pews with people who didn't really believe in the past and who would put a few bucks in the plate for insurance.
Emerging Church and Simple Church will empty out these IC's. One is offering a "hip, new high-powered alternative" which is long on show and short on obedience. It appeals to the fleshly, so the converts will be the seed that falls on shallow soil -- but there will be a steady stream of them to keep things going. Simple church will quietly increase among those who are willing to give up their own life to see Jesus in their midst, and who somehow discover that God's principles work and Jesus is alive.
I fear that authentic church-going folks like yourself will find it harder and harder (as we did) to keep going through the motions on Sabbath day, as fewer and fewer people are willing to even visit anymore. Church buildings will continue to be sold to become music stores and strip malls, because a smaller and increasingly elderly population can't afford the bills.
I know you are earnestly seeking the Lord, and expect that God will bring your wife along before the day comes that you have no where to go anymore.
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
Your words are salted with wisdom. Yes, I believe almost exactly as you do. It doesn't take a prophet though--it is already happening just as you say. But I want to carry your keen foresight a bit further in light of past church history and inject something from scripture to both support and extrapolate what you have said.
When the early Catholic church was becoming obsolete the bishops appealed to the civil powers to enact and enforce laws to cause men to attend church. When America was first settled blues laws were enacted to force men to attend church or pay ever increasing fines. A slave was imprisoned but a free man was fined. If he still refused then he was finally made a slave. I believe history will repeat itself. When the churches are empty the pastors will appeal to the civil powers to enforce laws to force people to attend church. They will point to the wickedness of the day and the falling off of church attendance as the root cause.
Where did I get this? History and the Bible. Look closely at Revelation chapter 13. If the first beast represents the corrupt "church" which flurished when aligned with civil powers, then what happens in verses 11 onward describes a religious organization which appeals to the civil government to reproduce a replica of those earlier institutions.
I say this is a church-state relationship because there are elements of both in the passage. There is the element of worship then there is the element of speaking and causing. A nation, such as America, speaks through her laws which are constrained by the Constitution. The word 'cause' suggests force. A church does not have power to prosecute and condemn a person to death. This is why the Jews appealed to Rome for Christ's crucifixion. "Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death."
When this happens then persuction will arise again even in America. That is why I fight for the wall of separation of church and state. I don't like the liberal attitude regarding school prayer and all that entails, but I hate the alternative even worse. If people refuse to attend the state church but perfer rather to gather in homes, then they will be fined and eventually could be sentenced to death--as scripture states will happen. But first they will be denied the right to work and earn money or to buy. This will directly violate the Constitution which guarantees all the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
I know this sounds very strange right now, but there are forces at work even today to bring this about. When the pastors salaries are hurting then it will be easy for them to appeal to the state for help. Can you see any of this ever happening in America? Remember history and Revelation 13.
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Hey jqlogan, I really like this, this is something I have never heard before. I have seen all kinds of apocalyptic movies, [even the one with Laurence Tureaud (aka Mr. T) in it] and I have read the whole Left Behind series. (I’m kinda selective with the movies and books I read, so there is often little to pick from but “Christian” ones... And they are well written novels.) In every one “the church” is hiding out while being hunted and killed by the Antichrist. Same ol’ same o’ …and isn’t that nice. Good guys church, bad guys world. But what if the church was typecast as the ultra villain! I’m not sure how this could go, and it IS far fetch sounding, but only because I have never thought it out, but what an interesting twist. The anti rapture guys would love this idea I think! The church in all of its corrupt horrid state, chasing after money and power, as the antichrist himself! Which brings up a question… Is the church ever spoken of in male gender? Even if it’s not, I like it!!! What do you think jqlogan, you gonna write a really cool fiction a book! You should at least start a new thread and play around with the idea. I’d be one reader for sure!
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You are right, jq, history will repeat itself. I'm not sure what form the "religion" will take. Right now, you can be fined by several government agencies for not conforming to the approved belief system. Some examples:
--The medical. (i.e.punishing people for refusing vaccinations) This would fall under the PharmaKeia of Babylon mentioned in Revelation. There is a book that compares the medical system to a religion, and it is truly amazing. Vaccination is the baptism of infants, Doctors are a priesthood whom you must believe and obey, "germs" are evil beings out to get you, and if you don't obey the Priest you will perish.
--The agricultural. (there's a global push to take land away from people so that everyone has to eat the genetically modified, pesticide poisoned food put out by Monsanto). Our food choices are being removed in the name of Mammon. "A days wages for a quart of wheat".
--The educational. The State knows that the greatest enemy of tyranny is a whole, healthy family, thus it strives to remove all children from their father's influence. "The father's hearts will be turned toward the children... or destruction will come"
The global. US courts are beginning to cite foreign laws as normative, usually to undermine families. The world has been carved into "development zones" by the powers that be. Land has been set aside as "World Heritage Sites" removing national sovereignty.
We are threatened with tyranny in every area. Will the Christian church join the state? Some would say it already has, for example, if a Pastor has to conform to "child endangerment required reporting laws", then he cannot implement scriptural mandates regarding believer discipline. A pastor can't speak about politics from the pulpit or he will lose tax-exempt status. Thus, the government makes sure that the RIGHTEOUS have no right to collaborate on things that affect their daily lives!
Matthew, I too, read a lot of apocalyptic novels. I, however, also read secular ones - and am amazed by how often their themes and details are spot-on with what the Bible says, and with God is saying to me. History records that at the time of Jesus, there was a kind of "Messianic Madness" - everyone was looking for Him, and had a feeling he was coming, from the "Magi in the East" to the men like Barabbas who cultivated rebellion by appealing to this general fever.
So, does all this apocalyptic fever mean we are on the verge of the final last days? Let us obey the Spirit that we will be able to "stand in the evil day!"
Blessings, Laurie Ann PS I do not recommend reading secular fiction. In this case, just take my word for it!
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
quote: Matthew, I too, read a lot of apocalyptic novels. I, however, also read secular ones - and am amazed by how often their themes and details are spot-on with what the Bible says, and with God is saying to me. PS I do not recommend reading secular fiction. In this case, just take my word for it!
Word taken! So, If you would ...I would love to hear what you think. I find it impossible to argue with anyone on anything dealing with Revelation and the like. I feel it is always open to speculation and interpretation, so I don't go there myself. If the [apostles] didn't figure out why Christ was there with them, I have a nagging suspission (just like jqlogan said) that history will repeat itself. I can fully see myself standing there at "the end of it all" scratching my head and saying, "Oh, so that's what He meant when He said all of that stuff!"
However, I love to hear what others are thinking on the topic. Just like I promised jqlogan, I would love to read what you are thinking!
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Principle among my thoughts, Matthew, is that Jesus said the end would be "like labor pains".
Many have looked at Apocalyptic Madness surrounding things like the rise of Napoleon, Hitler or Stalin and when the end did not come, they said, "See, you are silly to believe in that stuff." But, on the contrary, these rises of "mini-anti-Christs" make all the more certain that one day the Ultimate Anti-Christ will rise.
These "labor pains" seem to come closer and closer together. The time between Napoleon and Hitler was much longer than the time between Hitler and Mao!
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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I myself, find myself doing mental gymnastics (at best) to conclude there will be no ultimate Antichrist. As far as the labor pains go, I was deeply saddened to read just yesterday the horrors that are going on today in the world as the USA continues to "do business as usual."
This list was in "Parade," (the little insert that comes with a lot of Sunday papers). Here is the first five on the list: (1.) North Korea (Kim Jong-il) Three generations can be punished for an alleged crime. Over 200,000 in labor camps. (2.) Darfur region of Sudan (Omar Al-Bashir) constant civil war. We purchase 4000 tons of gum arabic to make soda, candy, etc from here. (3.) Burma (Than Shwe) vast human rights violations "vicious persecution". We sell them $7 million in exports each year. (4.) Saudi Arabia (King Abdullah) Women oppressed, defendants can be tortured most al-Qaeda in Iraq from here. $15 billion in arms sold to them in the last decade. Oil imported, $30 billion. (5.) China (Hu Jintao) forced abortions, religious persecution, controlled media, 99% of trials end in conviction. $1 billion a day trade deficit and we owe their lenders $388 billion. {the entire list is at parade.com}
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