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Ok... let me try this again. I am a Lutheran IC pastor in the Twin Cities, Minnesota who believes very much in the validity of both HC and IC.
I have absolutely no interest in talking about how great or how terrible HC is. Nor do I have any interest at all in talking about how great or how terrible IC is. There are many good and many not so good churches in both categories of HC and IC. (And I truly believe that God will bless those HCs and ICs that are found to be faithful.)
But I am very much interested in exploring the ways in which faithful HCs and ICs relate to each other as fellow members of the body of Christ rather than as perceived enemies of each other.
Is it possible for HCs and ICs, in Christ, to communicate with each other, support each other, share resources, and perhaps even occassionally work together for the good of God's Kingdom... without trying to steal away each others members?
I am interested in dreaming big dreams with the dreamers in God's Kingdom.
Just to introduce myself, I am a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church and regularly attend what is referred to here as an IC. I have been associated with this particular online forum for many years. A friend, who worked with me in a volunteer organization for runaway kids, recently took on the duties of pastor at a Lutheran church in Chicago.
Now may I speak somewhat casually? Being a pastor you will not be easily offended. My words are not intended to offend but to inform. This is a crude synopsis of my own personal perspective of HC as it relates to my association here. I don't intend to speak for anyone here or for the group as a whole. These are simply my observations.
Whereas the IC is organized and hierarchical in structure, the HC strives to be organic. What this appears to translate into is a mild form of chaos where everyone professes to be lead by Christ, the Head, but are reluctant to be submissive to each other. There are no leaders among men but all are equal in position and apparently gifts. It is a brotherhood and sisterhood whereas the IC is viewed more as a kingdom with knights and serfs. The HC could be classed as a rebellion of the serfs. Your position as pastor is viewed somewhat akin to the antichrist. Now of course there are degrees of ICs--some far worse than others. But basically it is held among the more vocal proponents of HC that the IC is "Babylon."
As you can see, you have a lot of obstacles to overcome. Now, as I said earlier, this does not represent the HC as a whole but the more vocal members do seem to consistently hold these views.
Personally, I have found that there are a lot of open wounds among the HC'ers (again, I can only speak of those which participate in the forum) and one must tread lightly to prevent stirring up the proverbial hornet's nest. It is unfortunate but only a very small handful of registered members of this forum actively participate in the discussions. So there is a very small sampling from which to base any empirical observations.
So if I am so cynical why do I stay? Well, I started here and transitioned to the IC. I laid down roots and built friendships with several members. I enjoy the discussions, at times. I learn and share. And, I know that prophecy does depict an angel calling the faithful to come out of Babylon. Is this that coming out? I am waiting to see. My answer will come when something mysterious and serious begins to gel and a unity of the faith matures. Not uniformity or conformity, but unity. Not compromise of one's beliefs to attain a false unity but an actual heart changing experience where truth is treasured and believed by one and all. This will come about only when people begin to open the scriptures for themselves and study to know what is truth.
Apparently, the pastors in the churches have not promoted an environment friendly to piercing questions from people who honestly want to know what is the truth. Some people have therefore felt that they were confined to a particular creed and anything that upset that was viewed as divisive and rebellious. Though I cannot know every particular in every case, some have accused the IC of persecuting them for questioning the status quo. With the experiences of Martin Luther as their legacy the Lutheran church should be most sensitive to mistreatment on these grounds. After all, Martin Luther, the priest, wanted to reform the church. He had no intention of leaving the church. Nor did he have any idea that he would be expelled from the church simply for asking for a discussion on specific doctrinal points.
The HC offers a haven where no one dictates what a person shall believe. It encourages everyone to study and share. It encourages each person to develop their own talents and gifts. (BTW, this is something corporate America has learned twenty years ago or more. If you want growth you must allow each person to participate equally without fear of reprisal or termination. Some companies still struggle with managers who are too overbearing. They suffer for it. So too the IC suffers when the pastor lords over the flock.)
On the other hand, Revelation 13 talks of a time when the church will dictate what every man shall believe or s/he will not buy or sell and could be killed. The RCC has long held that She has the right to control the consciences of men. In countries where the Catholic faith still rules that practice continues. Her murderous persecution of the saints demonstrates how far She will go to enforce Her doctrines. Should the other Protestant churches follow in those footsteps? Sadly, Revelation 13 talks about such a time when an "Image" of the RCC will be established. Another beast with lamb-like horns who spoke as a dragon "had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."
BTW, can anything good come from the Lutheran church? They paved the way for the Reformation in the 16th century and are now paving the way back to the RCC. I am speaking of the agreement of faith signed by both the RCC and the Lutheran church regarding the definition of Righteousness by Faith. The Lord led Martin Luther boldly out of the RCC with this very doctrine. Has the RCC now changed or has the Lutheran church? I dare say it is the Lutheran church which has compromised her beliefs. It is a main tenant of the RCC faith that "She has never erred nor will She ever err." Since She has built Her foundation upon this and other blasphemous grounds it is highly unlikely that She has budged an inch. If the word converted means "to make a u-turn", then what can a twice converted church offer the HC?
quote:I have absolutely no interest in talking about how great or how terrible HC is. Nor do I have any interest at all in talking about how great or how terrible IC is. There are many good and many not so good churches in both categories of HC and IC.
quote:I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." – Michael Jordan
Guess we may take a lesson from non-believers like Jordan. He understands that one can never really succeed if he fails to see what fails him. Did Jordan himself discover his weakness and improve to perfection all by himself? Has he never benefited from Phil Jackson criticisms even they didn't always see eye to eye? For a team to succeed, don’t they have to sit and watch previous games to see why they won (the greats) or lost (the terribles). Don’t they discuss each play in slow motion? Do they simply skip the losing sections? We should know better than that.
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All deference to Michael Jordan aside, I think that I will rather take the advice of Jesus and turn the cheek, and walk the extra mile. For I truly do believe that it is possible for some HC Churches and some IC Churches to communicate, respect each other, work together, etc...
Yes, learn success from failure as Jordan says, but don't dwell upon the past. It is not by dwelling upon the faults of each other or by dwelling upon sins of the past that Kingdom work gets done. As brothers and sisters in Christ we need to constantly strive to look for what God has made good in each one of us and forgive the sins of the past.
I was once publicly expelled by an IC denomination as a "heretic pastor" for allowing a layperson to speak before the congregation on Easter Sunday. My own district president was eager to destroy me. But by the grace of God that severe wound has been healed and the sin is forgiven. And now I am delighted to serve as pastor at a different IC church that is faithful to the work of God's Kingdom.
At times I felt like Joshua that I was the only faithful one left. But God has opened my eyes to see that there are indeed many faithful Christians and pastors in many different ICs ans HCs and Christian denominations.
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Another concern would be that your "worker bee" type Christians who have left the IC to go to simple church are often burned out on "meetings for the sake of meetings". The families we are kingdom-building with literally put NO regular weekly activities on the calendar as a matter of principle.
We work hard every day at our spiritual lives, discipleship, worship, families, work, personal ministry and community building - but if you asked me if we would attend a meeting for the purpose of something without a clearly defined, practical goal, and a termination point, I'd be unlikely to attend.
That would make it hard to create any kind of alliance on an ongoing basis. However, our kitchens are open and the coffee pot is on!
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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I am certainly no fan of meetings for the sake of meetings either. And since I am not associated with any HC it is probably rather presumptuous of me to siggest HC meetings of any kind. Perhaps you don't need any.
But of course you do meet regularly online don't you? You do see a purpose for that kind of meeting. And you do join together with other Christians on occasion for fellowship or education or ministries? (I honestly don't know)
It's not really for me to say, but perhaps you may also see value in having a place once a year for gathering of HCs within a given community... to make yourselves visible within the community, to meet with each other, to share what is going on with each other, or whatever. Or maybe on a rare occasion, gasp, to even have a joint worship service together with other HCs in your area (or are your wounds from the IC so fresh that even the thought of entering an IC building would be too painful for you? I honestly don't know) . The nature and purposes of whatever HC gatherings on whatever timetable would need to be decided by the HCs themselves.
And what might an IC gain from allowing HCs to occasionally use its facilities for such purposes? I can only speak for myself... for me there is always joy in working together with Christians from different backgrounds. It stretches me as a person in Christ. Besides that, I have a great desire to teach my own IC members how to serve Christ first and foremost within their own homes and families. How to make Christian hospital visits on the members of their own families, how to serve each other, how to pray, encourage, and forgive each other within their own homes. I suspect that I might be able to learn something from HC people in these areas.
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Wounds? What wounds? You are confusing me with someone else.
I was "sent off" by loving laying on of hands of two different pastors representing the Christian Church and the Assemblies of God and with a letter from the sweet teacher who led me to Christ in 1969 saying, "Laurie, I think you are on the right track" with the house church thing. The only wound I have is the broken heart when I realized how much I had missed all these years serving the Church instead of serving Christ -which, I realized, should be the same but hadn't really been.
I do avoid "church buildings" and prefer "community centers" because my ministry target is the unchurched, who tend to be on edge in shrines, temples and other religious places.
We do have large group meetings from time to time, but they are "event - oriented" rather than "calendar oriented". As Tony Dale suggests, we have a large worship gathering when there is an occasion: a special guest (we have had 2 when missionaries who were "on board" with the same vision came to town, another when my son was baptized in the lake), and we also all sometimes meet at a public event, such as a town festival, to support one another (such as joining the audience for a demonstration of a traditional craft, performing, etc.). Of course, at those meetings we will fellowship with old friends from our IC days, as well as our pre-saved neighbors.
Doing it this way, Unity of the Body happens naturally, rather than artificially. We just ARE the body wherever we go. Cool, huh!
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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Ok... that sounds cool. You do have larger events on occasion together with other HCs. You do it in a community center and that becomes the church when you gather together. I certainly agree with that. The church is wherever God's people gather together to do his will.
Similarly, when I and the members of my congregation gather together in an IC building it is indeed a church because that is where we as God's people choose to gather to worship and to work. And I agree that it is no more or less of a church than the building where you choose to gather for HC.
I apologize for implying that you may have unhealed wounds. I will take you at your word that you do not. Perhaps I was just over-reacting to my own fresh wounds from hearing the incessant barbs being thrown against the IC on this list.
In any event, it does makes sense to me that you would not want to hold many public HC events within an IC building. The HC movement by its very nature needs to be a strong witness that church is wherever 2 or 3 are gathered together.
I think that ICs could learn a great deal from HCs about how to do Christian ministry out in the community and within the homes of its members. But I am also of the opinion that HCs also have many important lessons to learn from their "professional" and "non-professional" brothers and sisters within the IC body of Christ.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by jqlogan: ... These are simply my observations. What this appears to translate into is a mild form of chaos where everyone professes to be lead by Christ, the Head, but are reluctant to be submissive to each other. There are no leaders among men...
I'd like to address this, if I may.
The reason this seems so out of whack, is that we have lost God's definition and plan for the family.
Look at Abraham, Job, Cornelius. Men who are clearly a patriarchal figure, who works, is respected in the community and is the "royal priest" in his household. His wife serves him as counselor (for better or worse ). He meets with other men "in the city gates" to discuss the weather, the future, crime and punishment, and contracts. Women meet at the well to discuss cooking, childrearing and marriages - theirs and potential ones.
In the Kingdom of God, what is added is "As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD". Everything the family is already doing now becomes subject to God's guidance.
Now, the Patriarchs discuss things, but they do not "Lord it over one another like the gentiles."
My husband leads our family. JQ leads his family. Our families might get together to help one another, challenge one another. A few men might, like Job's friends, say, "Your heart isn't right in this area. Let's talk it over." But they don't try to make him do anything! They recognize his "personal sovereignty".
Each family has a calling as a family. God may tell one, "Pack your stuff and go to Egypt (or Japan or Chicago)" like Abraham. He may tell another, "Open your home to orphans and widows, and ask the others in your community to contribute", like the Jerusalem famine situation Paul addressed by writing to all the households. He may tell another, "Call in Peter to tell you about my Kingdom -- invite everyone you know!" like Cornelius.
Chaos in the current model comes from not honoring the Priesthood of men and women in their households. When people try to make several families into one household that has to do everything together, it interferes with what the Holy Spirit is telling the individual Patriarch/Matriarchs to do! The man or women with the loudest voice and the most confidence tries to make everyone follow his vision.
Then, you have men who try to put a pulpit in someone's living room, another who tries to turn the group into a commune, another who thinks we should all sit in dim lighting singing "Kum-ba-ya" until the Lord returns. Then, all the other families are like, "Huh??? That doesn't ring true to me, but this guy says it's God, so who am I to contradict?..."
In our community, there is one family who has a vision for hospitality on a large scale, and we are all praying, blessing and helping them, and we may even be led to be part of what they do. Another family has a desire to be self-sufficent in their household and to do short term medical missions trips. Our family's gift is apostolic.
If we all tried to "agree on one ministry" it would create strife. If we pray and encourage one another to exercise their gifts, as Jesus said in many of his stories, and as Paul spelled out in his letters, then the result isn't chaos but a harmony of "all the gifts working together in unity." There is an ebb and flow - I help with a friend's cooking on one day, we help with building a house another day, we lead worship yet another day. Is that chaos? Or is it the Holy Spirit "gettin' it done"?
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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Rich, It's more like turning a deaf ear and dodging sound exortations - Laurie spoke in biblical terms and Jeff provided certain facts - and you are not interested - and you are only interested in communications and working together - it is just too bad.
quote:For I truly do believe that it is possible for some HC Churches and some IC Churches to communicate, respect each other, work together, etc...
Anything is possible if you believe in compromise, in fact, the ecumenical movement has brought RCC, Protestants, Isalms and Buddhism closer than ever. If only that Luther guy could learn to respect the authorities. If only Jesus and the priests, scribes and pharisees would communicate, respect each other and work together.... without trying to steal away each others members. The world could be a better place when overdosed with the teachings of Billy and Ricky.
quote:I was once publicly expelled by an IC denomination as a "heretic pastor" for allowing a layperson to speak before the congregation on Easter Sunday. My own district president was eager to destroy me. But by the grace of God that severe wound has been healed and the sin is forgiven. And now I am delighted to serve as pastor at a different IC church that is faithful to the work of God's Kingdom.
...And you still don't get it! Now do I believe that it's possible for you and that denomination to communicate, respect each other and work together, without first setting the record straight?
quote:At times I felt like Joshua that I was the only faithful one left. But God has opened my eyes to see that there are indeed many faithful Christians and pastors in many different ICs ans HCs and Christian denominations.
Your eyes are opened and still see IC and denominations?
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D, I'm trying to look beyond IC, denominations and HC for that matter, for Christians. Given enough opportunity, any HC can become just another denomination walking astray. May be I misunderstood Rich, but I don't believe we can truly serve Him until we remove all the leaven. Yes I know not many can serve Him when we do that, but then the advance of the Kingdom is never about manpower, isn't it?
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Absolutely... "working together with" means working together with Christians of all kinds of Christian denominations. Wherever the gospel is preached true believers in Christ are to be found (despite the many doctrinal errors as we humans are prone to have).
Of course, the degree our of "working together" varies to a great degreee on how different we are. As an army chaplain and then again as a prison chaplain I worked together with a large variety of Christian chaplains of different denominations. Working together in these ways did not require that we be in agreement on all doctrinal matters. Nor did it require that I compromise my own Christian Lutheran faith in any way.
And ministering to a prisoner or a soldier that is away from his/her home parish did not require that I first convert them to Lutheranism. It did require that I remembered the central teaching of the gospel in scripture and that I respected their own Christian background.
As a Lutheran pastor I preached the funeral sermon for my former Roman Catholic secretary at her family's request inside a Catholic church. Members of my Lutheran congregation attended the funeral. We did not partake of the Catholic Eucharist. Since I was the one preaching the sermon it did not require any compromise of my personal faith. For I could clearly declare after years of knowing her, that my former Roman Catholic secretary was indeed a person that knew the gospel of salvation well and practiced it in her life.
More recently, I have invited a black Pentecostal congregation to share our chapel space within our large facilities. We Lutherans now work together with the Pentecostals in our building in some Christian human care projects and in some fellowship events. There are significant doctrinal differences between us. Therefore we do not go and preach in each other's worship services or teach in each others bible classes. But we do respect the fact that the Christian gospel is proclaimed by both of us and we do work together in areas where we can without compromise.
Let me ask this... isn't it true that HCs are essentially different denominations on a smaller scale? And yet you are not compromising your faith by sharing this discussion forum together or by occasionally meeting together.
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And yes, I have even "worked together" with Islamic and Budhist, and sometimes even self proclaimed heathens, worshippers of Nordic Gods, etc... in such cases I have at many times found need to correct their faulty understandings of what Christianity is about, give faithful witness to Christ and still respect the fact that although they are not sons and daughters of God through faith, they are still sons and daughters of God by creation.
I have even found occasion to give Christian witness to a satanic priest and talked to him about the gospel of Jesus Christ. It has often not been easy, but I am not ashamed of my witness for Christ in any of this.
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Rich, what do you think about the following verses? Ezekiel 22:24-26 Son of man, say unto her, Thou art a land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation. There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey: they have devoured souls; they take treasure and precious things; they have made her widows many in the midst thereof. Her priests have done violence to my law, and have profaned my holy things: they have made no distinction between the holy and the common, neither have they caused men to discern between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
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My comment on the above scripture is that there is both a time for confronting of sins and there is a time for being Gods faithful witness while standing in the midst of sinners. One needs God's wisdom to be able to recognize the difference.
St. Paul recognized that when he was standing on Mars Hill in the midst of idol worshippers that he had a unique opportunity to be Christ's faithful witness and he used it for that. Rather than preach a fire and brimstone message to them because of their idolatry he chose to use that particular opportunity to compliment them for being seekers of God and to tell them about Christ.
It takes one kind of courage to confront sin. It takes another kind of courage to be God's faithful witness in the midst of sinners.
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Rich, What if I use this opportunity to say "Rich, I perceive that you are very religious but you have been serving Him in ignorance. I make it clear to you that God despise the unity of the holy and the common. The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked, but now He commands that you repent”? Would you think it's a compliment? Regardless, it takes courage for me to say that for I believe you are a seeker of God.
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Let me take it a step further. In spite of your seemingly harsh judgment towards me I will not put you into a second class category by calling only you a "seeker of God", But rather if it is indeed true that you believe in your heart and confess with your lips that Jesus Christ is your own personal savior and Lord then that is all that is required for me to call you my full fledged brother in Christ.
Nor will I insist that you worship God in this building or that building, HC or IC, in order to be my brother.
(Funny how Christians, especially when online, quickly jump upon the differences which exist. I do it, too.)
Thanks Rich for the clarification. "Working together" for you does not involve compromise as far as you are concerned. Good. I haven't been able to pull it off yet but I applaud those who can, such as yourself. Most IC's don't really want me around when they discover my core beliefs. But I do regard many of them as true Christians, anyway.
This short quotation seems to sum up one major difference making "bridging the gap between hc and ic" very difficult if not impossible for some, such as myself.
quote:Chaos in the current model comes from not honoring the Priesthood of men and women in their households.
That is an interesting quote in view of your bringing a layman into the pulpit. For many of us, there is no clergy/laity distinction, you see. In 1 Corinthians 14 we observe a number of persons addressing the assembly rather than one. This is a big sticking point for me. But wait, we weren't supposed to be discussing the merits of hc vs. ic. Excuse me...
C, I see plenty of leaven in the hc, too. I could write a long chapter about it, in fact. But I still want to work with hc's. The ic certainly doesn't hold the sole franchise on scandalous, unrepented of behaviors, a tragic lack of unity, the gross lack of charity, a continusous lack of doctrinal clarity, nor the lack of those peddling the gospel for money.
Just in the last couple of days, I noticed a new Christianity Today Magazine lumping house churches in with the clergy dominated "Emerging Church Movement." Another house church leader I just encountered insisted that each house church network must have "apostles." Etc.
Each of us must decide if and to what extent we can work with other Christians. It's hard for me to know so I'm not going to tell you how or what to do. But I will listen. I do know that with respect to the church, you're either in it or out of it, regardless of anything else.
quote:Let me take it a step further. In spite of your seemingly harsh judgment towards me I will not put you into a second class category by calling only you a "seeker of God"
You have probably missed "What if" in my last post. Now if you think I was harsh, think about how the idol worshippers felt upon hearing what Paul said. It's not exactly a compliment, is it? I've never intended to mean second class when I said "seeker of God" as I believe we all are until we meet Him face to face someday and I'm sorry that you think that way. God says, "These are the things that ye shall do: speak ye every man the truth with his neighbor; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates." I'd work on peace while not neglecting the truth...
D, I guess the difference is, there can be no authority in HC except Christ and everyone's a brother(not that there will never be soon as leaven creeps in) whereas in IC, the titles and offices at times put Christians in different classes which is very different from the church as in 1 Cor 14.
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Evidently the idol worshippers did not detect so much hostility in Pauls voice, but rather Paul spoke the truth in a way that did not turn them off. They invited him to share with them this teaching of the Gospel that was strange to them in a larger setting. It's called speaking the truth in love. When Paul did this they could tell that he was worth listening to.
"Working together" with others for me means first of all respecting others for who they are (whether that be Christian, seeker, or someone that has lost their way, brother in Christ sometimes, and sometime brother by creation. Secondly it always means speaking the truth in love. And thirdly it means sharing what can be shared, looking for ways in which meaningful communication can take place, and then if possible also joining together in whatever work may be pleasing in the sight of God.
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Rich, What happened in Athens was, when they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, "we want to hear you again on this subject." At that, Paul left the Council. A few men became followers of Paul and believed. No doubt Paul spoke in love, but the truth is, not too many found love in his speech and even fewer believed. I spoke truth in love. The hositility you sensed is quite understandable for I guess few at your congregation, few at any congregation for that matter, would have the nerve to challenge what the pastor has to say or do unless it's from the even higher authority, sometimes the elders in the IC case. Now it's different here in this forum, or any Christian forum for that matter, for I don't know you and you don't know me - neither of us can lord over each other over the net. Anything one says will be subjected to the examination of many, from the young to the old, from the new to the experienced. The only authority would be the Word Himself. Now I see a great opportunity for you to re-examine your faith here, if only you are willing.
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OK... Why do you see great opportunity for me to re-examine my faith? My faith is founded securely in Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Savior of the world. Is that the faith you want me to re-examine?
Or is it my faith in IC that you want me to re-examine? In truth, I do not have much faith in either IC or in HC to begin with. They are both flawed institutions because of our sinful human nature. It would be very foolish of me to put strong faith in either one. It is better for me to put my faith first in God and then to work towards the good of God's kingdom within the particular church He has called me to.
It does not bother me that any authority I have is questioned. I encourage such questioning from the members of my congregation and they have no fear to do so on any matter great or small. I also encourage the youth of my congregation to always question the things that I teach and to think for themselves concerning the teachings of scripture. And yet it is true. The members of the congregation do treat me with respect. Is that a bad thing?
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TILL we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Ephesians 4:13
Obviously, we haven't made it to this "unity of the faith" have we? In the meantime, what do we do? Quit talking?
If someone is my brother or sister in Christ, I must love them enough to die for. 1 John 3:16. Still, I cannot work with some for very long, it seems. Even apostles had to leave certain ones behind.
Again I inquire, is there something other than true faith in God through Jesus Christ which determines one's status now and one's final destiny in the end?
quote:OK... Why do you see great opportunity for me to re-examine my faith? My faith is founded securely in Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Savior of the world. Is that the faith you want me to re-examine?
Yes, it is. And for me and some here too. Although you don't want to involve in discussions, your understanding on how Christians should work for the Kingdom of God is quite different from a few here. Has He opened up your eyes to see visions of IC and OC working together? To focus on similarities and ignore differences as long as the other parties claim they are Christians and willing to work together? I sincerely doubt for the Bible tells me otherwise. So the bottomline is, either you have received faulty signals from Him or some here. As a pastor, do you think you have the responsibility to bring me back if I'm on the wrong path? So as a fellow Christian, I believe it's my responsibility to bring you back, if you are listening - get rid of the leaven before you work on the flour or you'll get leaven bread.
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Beyond a personal confession of faith in Jesus Christ as savior and Lord, I do not believe that anything more is needed for one Christian to work together with another... other than perhaps a common goal and a mutual willingness to work together toward that goal. And this of course requires a bit of Christian maturity.
That of course is the sticky thing. I believe that the unwillingness of Christians to work together with Christians generally comes as a result of immaturity. We Chrisitians are often so arrogant and proud and that often hinders our ability to work well with each other. (I certainly include myself in this judgment)
We like to think that we are the personal owners of all truth. Forinstance. IC denominations often think that they are the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. Since I am a Lutheran I'll tell the joke on myself. I'm sure that you may have heard the story of the heavenly tour guide who instructed the new arrivals to be especially quiet when passing one room. "That's where the Lutherans are at and we don't want to disturb them. They think they are the only ones here."
Similarly, some HC people may think that theirs is the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. And yet that notion is just as absurd as to think that only Lutherans are in the only true church. Even Jesus clearly observed that the true Christian church is not to be equated with the members of ones family and home: "whoever loves father or mother... son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." etc...
But rather the true church is to be determined by an inward confession of faith. And so Jesus could tell the members of his own family/home that they would have to wait. For those who believed in the message of the Kingdom were His true family the church.
quote:I believe that the unwillingness of Christians to work together with Christians generally comes as a result of immaturity
Where do you get this from? The Bible tells me: Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Funny joke. Is there any reason for a church to exist if they do not believe themselves to be "The True Church?" I think you would be hard pressed to find a church that admits they are NOT the true church. But do all churches teach that membership in their organization guarantees entry to heaven? How can that be a requirement? That is akin to works, isn't it? And, personally, sounds more cult-ish than churchy.
I've found the hatred coming out of HC to be too much to deal with. How do you work with someone who think's your church is the whore of babylon? HC is just a new fad and is destined to run the course of every single one of the other 50,000+ Protestant denominations and sects which have sprung up in the 500 years since the Reformation. What you have here is the worst of what Christianity has to offer. I wouldn't even bother talking to them.
Peace be with you,
Agnus
-------------------- "In the evening of life, we will be judged on love alone." St. John of the Cross
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Martin Luther was one of the first to call the pope the antichrist. This is most unfortunate and I cannot agree with his bitter judgment against Rome. BTW... Nor can I agree with your assessment that HC is like all of protestantism and is just a fad that will run its course and fade away.
Of course virtually every single Christian church, Catholic and Protestant, IC and HC, believes and declares that it is a church that is true to the message of Christ and true to the gospel of salvation. And yet there is only one church that is indeed the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. That is the church invisible, the one universal church that is referred to in the Apostle's creed. It is invisible because only God can look into the hearts of people to see where true faith resides. This is the ONE TRUE CHURCH and contains Christians of all denominations and also Christians of no denomination. The individual members of this one universal church are all people of true and sincere faith in Christ as savior and Lord. And these are the the ones that I am glad to call my brothers and sisters in Christ.
When the disciples of Jesus saw a man proclaiming the message of God's Kingdom they tried to stop him because he was not from within their circle. But Jesus urged them to let the man go on teaching. For if he is teaching the gospel then he is indeed a brother whether he happens to be from your own little circle or not.
Sorry, but I was so shocked by your last statement I had to comment. Did you mean to discredit your own faith?
quote:Martin Luther was one of the first to call the pope the antichrist. This is most unfortunate and I cannot agree with his bitter judgment against Rome.
I think you have just denied your own faith, haven't you?
quote:Martin Luther considered justification to be the "first and chief article" of belief, and the the "ruler and judge over all other Christian doctrines." But beliefs about the precise mechanism of justification is perhaps the most difficult to attempt to harmonize between Protestants and Roman Catholics. It was one of the most important theological disputes of the Reformation... Disagreements over the nature of Justification were "in the 16th century, a principal cause of the division of the Western Church" into Roman Catholicism and Protestantism... The Joint Declaration was able to resolve some differences. They [Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists] agreed that the remaining differences were not sufficiently substantial for the 16th century condemnations to continue in force.
The last sentence explains your modern tolerance. You may feel that identifying a false church as Babylon and its false doctrines as wine is bigotry and hatred and that we should be forgiving and embrace her in Christian love. But is it love to mislead 900,000,000+ people and hold them captive apart from the graces of God? How can we condone such a thing. We should speak loudly against it but instead we are like dumb dogs, who cannot bark, lying down, taking slumber. But She is not asleep believe me! She knows exactly what she is doing.
Perhaps you can deny your Protestant roots and turn around and walk back to Her open arms. But I will stand with your Martin Luther, "so help me God!"
And now you wish to be reconciled to the HC. Perhaps you are a cloud without water, a wolf in sheep's clothing prowling for those with itching ears. God knows. How far are you willing to compromise your beliefs for the sake of unity, my brother?
And, BTW, Martin Luther was not the first. "holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
quote: "There are many who are disposed to attribute any fear of Roman Catholicism in the United States to bigotry or childishness. Such see nothing in the character and attitude of Romanism that is hostile to our free institutions, or find nothing portentous in its growth. Let us, then, first compare some of the fundamental principles of our government with those of the Catholic Church. "The Constitution of the United States guarantees liberty of conscience. Nothing is dearer or more fundamental. Pope Pius IX., in his Encyclical Letter of August 15, 1854, said: 'The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience, are a most pestilential error--a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a State.' The same pope, in his Encyclical Letter of December 8, 1864, anathematized 'those who assert the liberty of conscience and of religious worship,' also 'all such as maintain that the church may not employ force.'"
From JOSIAH STRONG, D.D., "OUR COUNTRY," PP. 46-48.
She would like to control every man's conscience. Even God does not operate so. God created man a free moral agent. It was at great cost that God bestowed this great gift of freedom of choice to man. It resulted in the death of the Son of God. But it is obvious that God was willing to accept the responsibility even before he created man. If God should now revoke or even curtail that freedom He would in that very act deny Himself. But She is not afraid to exert Her authority where She has not been granted it. God reasons with man while She uses torture and coercion. Join yourself to Her and She will prove to be the worst task-master. Even now Her deadly wound is healing and the world marvels at Her power and influence. Beware what you do.
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). He meets with other men "in the city gates" to discuss the weather, the future, crime and punishment, and contracts. Women meet at the well to discuss cooking, childrearing and marriages - theirs and potential ones.