posted
An important topic this is, so if no one minds, we'll continue it afresh here. The previous thread has become a little difficult to navigate due to its size - almost 40 replies.
quote:Pat from Bayfield, Colorado here, where it is snowing once again.
I appreciate your heart concerning a working relationship versus an adversarial one between HCs and ICs. I believe one key to that will be found in individual believers following the leading of the Spirit. Another key will be found in elders being elders, teaching other faithful brothers and sisters who will teach others also. Teach what? First to be examples, then to honor others above ourselves, protect the flock of God from false doctrines, and to remember that whoever isn't against us is for us, regardless of how we all assemble together. We are known by our love one to another, not by our outward lable or geographic location.
I'm reminded that us homechurchers can fall into the same trap that has overcome many; the "We're on the RIGHT track and everyone else who doesn't do it our way is WRONG" It's human, carnal nature. The scriptures tell us in Acts frequently enough that people met together in temples and from house to house. We can never forget the temple too. Although location isn't the issue. What is the issue (from my perspective) is that we deliberately meet together in the name of the Lord, and according to I Cor. 14:26, we all participate for the purpose of edifying. I believe this is where many ICs have come short, and where HCs can also since we're still talking about people here who might still want some preimenence over others.
Can ICs and HCs work together? Sure...so long as you and I take our leading from the Lord (instead of the organizational handouts), allow God to be God in others around us especially when we assemble together (instead of recognizing a "pastor" over someone else), to allow people freedom to fellowship where they are led to go (instead of me trying to keep them here with the rest of us...), and when it comes to giving, give as unto the Lord, whether it's here, or wherever (since Christ didn't set up honoring the Lord so I can have a steady paycheck).
Well, I should shut up before I write a boring novel. But I wonder if perhaps we might be looking at this imperfectly; What if God doesn't see IC or HC, either / or. What if He has placed in His word the blueprints for what He wants...and is just hoping that all of us would just do things the way He wrote it out, in all of it's detail (and vague generalities to give us room to develop into that "perfect man...unto Christ"). Just a thought.
Pat, there is little danger of you writing a boring novel. Your words are true and they are needful.
When we stand before the throne of God prior to eternity, we will be asked by Jesus what we did to the "least of these his brethren" in terms of ministry. The question will not be: Did you figure out the church structure thing? In other words, the basis of judgment will not be IC vs HC but sheep vs goats.
It is true that certain structures, imo, could and should expedite ministry more than others but life is full of ironies. I am aquainted with many IC folk who have been totally sold out to loving Jesus, serving others, and wanting neither recognition nor payment. I have, on the other hand, encountered more than a few hyper-critical HC folk who were totally self absorbed.
I suppose I had better leave that final judgment thing to Someone else... I shall however, in the mean time, encourage all to become engaged in ministry and to meet in Jesus' name whenever and wherever they are able.
posted
This is a wonderful, diplomatic answer, Pat. And I don't fault you for it, or single you out - many give the same answer, more or less, here.
However... I take issue with it in three major ways:
1. It raises the question of whether the difference between IC and HC is a matter of "flavor" or a question of God's Written, Plain purpose. It presumes there is no reason for choosing how we live. How we "do churche" affects us every day. Is it just the difference between Big and Small? Between Old and New? Between Pews and Couches? Or is it much more fundamental than that? Is it about what Jesus told us to do and whether we are doing it?
2. "Wrong Track/Right Track" is not the issue - but rather -two totally different tracks going in totally different directions. "How can two walk together unless they agree?" If I think programs are a waste of time, money, people and spiritual energy, and believe that Jesus meant it when he said, "Call no man Rabbi" and that Paul meant it when he said, Stay home and practice hospitality" then how can I be part of something that the local Bible Church is doing, say their VBS program?
3. Most importantly, it ignores that IC is the single, greatest obstacle - bar none- to the advance of the Kingdom of God worldwide.
Does that sound harsh? It is - I mean it to be. Don't believe me?
Try this experiment: Randomly call 10 churches in your area, tell them you are a missionary to a strategic unreached people in North Africa and need support. Can I share my vision?
What will happen? Some will say, "Sorry, we are already giving enough. Some will say, "You aren't part of our group" MOST will say, "Sorry, we just started/just finished/are thinking about a Building program/youth ministry/ new pastor.
One might agree to meet with you. Maybe. He'll give you $25 and send you on your way! Whoopee! $25 for Morocco! Let's go!
Meanwhile, the amount of money and time wasted by the members of that church, individually and as a group, will make our "Lean Mean Gospel Machine" brethren from the Philippines or Indonesia gasp in amazement.
Blessings! Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
posted
You make some good points, sister. Form consistantly determines function despite the occasional irony of which I wrote. And as is usually the case, money does play a role. As dad used to say: "You can only spend it once." If it's tied up with buildings and salaries, it it obviously not going to be available for missions.
IC with high budgets for missions do exist, of which I am aware. In fairness, I know of churches which have owned their meeting facilities for many years and pay no mortgages. Likewise, I know of IC churches which pay no salaries. But churches in these categories are uncommon.
The USA house churching movement is now more than a couple of decades old. At least "70 million" have participated in it so far and the growth is reported to be snowballing. I have to wonder how many foreign missionaries the movement has financed and sent.
A couple of years ago, we sponsored an elist devoted to church planting via house churches. (A google search of "NTCP or New Testament Church Planting" and "house church" should pull up hundreds of pages of dialogue.) Yet seldom, if ever, was it mentioned that a group of house churches had sent someone to the field or were planning to do so. I am, of course, certain that it does occur. I just wonder if it is frequent or rare. I also participated on other HC elists over the course of 6-8 years and I have no recollection of such a thing being discussed as a group of hc's actually sending out a foreign missionary.
posted
Laurie Ann, I finally found the post! Thanks for giving me clues to know what you were talking about.
Please allow me to respond to both your public and private posts here. I appreciate your fervor and directness; so let me reply in kind. My post at the origin of this thread wasn't so much diplomatic as I belive it to aim for balance. I've been corrected by the Lord for making blanket judgements on ICs. I came to know Jesus Christ through an IC! Most of us have come out of darkness because someone, who was part of an IC, invited us. I am reminded that with all the negatives of an IC system, there are still people who gather together, yes, under the umbrella of a denominational banner, but are Spirit led believers as much as any HC veteran out there. I am also reminded that God isn't anti-structure and is able to use almost anything to further His Kindom. And finally concerning ICs, speaking negatively about them doesn't really do anyone any good. I've had to curb my own speech in recent days. Here's another dose of reality: Not everyone can or should jump to an HC tomorrow. Why? They aren't ready. A big concern I have with this wonderful HC movement is that there are babes in Christ simply "starting their own thing" at home and going from the frying pan into the fire. I'll bet you've seen that too!
I don't believe we are going to further the HC movement by tearing down ICs. I believe that the Lord is "calling out" His people from the world and from dead religion into a deeper walk with Him. And when they hear His voice, they will respond. Why didn't I get this revelation 5 years ago? I wasn't ready. And God wasn't through using the tool of the IC I was part of. But I loved the Lord with all I was! Why don't my neighbors want to leave their IC and come join me at home? They aren't ready or perhaps God hasn't called them yet or maybe the Lord has something else for them. I think the best thing I can do is to speak hope, life and speak the truth in love and let God be God.
My sister, may I gently address the spirit in which you communicate in? James and John wanted to call down fire on a Samaritan village who wouldn't receive the Lord. But Jesus, rebuked them and said, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are. For the Son isn't come to destroy...." Please consider that others in ICs don't have the revelation you and I do. Quite possibly the Lord has called you and I and others to go out ahead and prepare the way for more to follow. And being critical about ICs will burn more bridges than are built to carry them over.
Over the years, the Lord has had to teach me that the church is a lot more like an aircraft carrier than a speed boat when it comes to changing course. Speed boats can turn on dime. Aircraft carriers need amazing amounts of planning and room to make the same turn. I'm okay with sudden change; others aren't. In fact, the Lord put me among many people who are slow to change to teach me to prefer others above myself. He taught me through them to slow down, communicate clearly, and travel together leaving no one behind.
I belive the best thing we can do for our IC bretheren, is to be Christ-like, and give them the same room to change that we needed. And when asked by them why we home church, consider that the open door to share the great things that the Lord Jesus has done in us!
posted
I tend to disagree that we were "saved because of IC". I was saved because someone shared the message of Jesus with me in a loving way, and the place was insignificant. Insignificant, except that, although I was saved, the "building" kept me from leading my family to Christ! I accepted the secondary message that the way to lead my family to Christ was to get them to church. I was saved... but my 100 or so relatives have been hindered by my wrong understanding - and nothing set me straight until the revelation I had about what Jesus actually said, as opposed to the message of the so-called church. I thought I needed credentials to share Christ. I believed a whole lot of lies that kept me from sharing the truth - that kept me from being the "woman of peace" to my household.
That's why I'm so frantic to see people let go of the building. I sincerely believe that one or two may be saved by cool programs and nice carpeting - but that whole households will be saved by following Jesus' instructions. And the statistics about "church planting movements" bear that out.
We do not have the privilege to "do it our way". A billion souls hang in the balance.
As for comparing me to James and John, they were calling down curses on unbelievers. Jesus called down curses on the religious people who "didn't get it". I'm with Jesus on this one!
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
posted
Laurie Ann, thanks for the reply, and I look forward to other's to chime in on this as well.
We have several things to discuss here and I'll do my best to stick to the topic of Bridging the Gap between HC and IC.
First, I didn't say I or most of us were "saved" in an IC. None of us are saved until we are in the presence of Jesus Christ in eternity. (remember enduring to the end... Salvation isn't a decision at the altar. It's the way of obedience to His Word we walk in that leads to life everlasting.) I said I came to know Jesus there, I began there. Most of my family began a walk with God with the help of loving people in an IC. Here's another shock: God used the PTL Club back in the 70's with Jim & Tammy Baker to help us out of darkness into His marvelous light. That's how we started...it's not where we are...or how we'll end.
Let me clarify where I think the heart of our dissagreement is: If we homechurchers are going to be lights to our IC bretheren, honey is still more attractive than vinegar. I'm against what I see in organizational religion as much as you are. However, I fail to see how writing toxic criticisms is going to win many over to this great liberty in Christ. Jesus didn't tell Nicodemus to quit being a pharisee. He told him ye must be born again. In doing that the phariseeism would fall away in due time. Sharing the word of truth in love and being a witness will do more than telling people to let go of the building and quit being a prisoner to their organziation!
I don't know you, Laurie Ann, but I sense you are a woman of intensity and great influence. Thank God for that! But as a brother in Christ, may I caution you to let your speech be alway with grace. I sense more of a "scorched earth" policy from you concerning ICs. And the last time I checked, nothing grows in scorched earth. I've heard enough people comment on all the divisions and arguements they see in these forums and are concluding that that is what they'll find in home churches. Yech! Who would want that? Bitterness isn't part of the fruit of the Spirit - it is a great repellent, however.
Also, can you help me find where Jesus called down curses on religious people who didn't get it? I recall a fig tree getting cursed, but no religious folks. I read of warnings to scribes and pharisees for specific offenses, but no fire. I personally like the fire idea...but then if I were judged according to the judgement I render, ...uh... Ouch! Why is it getting so hot all of the sudden?!?! Some of those very folks later received Christ.
Finally, the epistles are loaded with instruction and admonishment to suffer long, forebear, forgive, and endure with one another, till we all come into the unity of the faith. Is it possible, that in our zeal and desire to see a great change within the church, we might be hindering rather than helping by our destructive words? And yes, Laruie Ann, some of your words are destructive. I know. I've said much of the same. But I've repented. Now when I meet folks who aren't interested in a HC, I praise God, and just shake the dust off my feet. Perhaps down the road, when they are ready and God is drawing them, they may remember my sweet spirit and encouraging words, and want to continue our conversation of assembling together from house to house, and cross that bridge.
The main point for me is the original question, "Bridging the Gap". I just don't think that is possible. I sincerely believe that cannot be done without corrupting the house church - having put my hand to the plow, I just can't look back without compromise. A bridge goes both ways, but the "narrow gate" only swings one way.
And, yes, I am intense, but I extend a great deal of grace to people I talk to and live with. Since this is a forum dedicated to "house church" I feel more freedom to "tell it like it really is." Isn't that what people come here for? Most of my IC friends have no idea how strongly I feel about these things. But I don't think this is the place to "soft-pedal" to people who are asking these questions. I believe that hard words may sting - but compromise kills.
As I'm trying to emphasize, I think the issues are too important to "be nice" about them. Jesus was rarely nice. I weep, with him, over the lost sheep - and the shepherds who are misleading them.
When I mentioned a curse upon the religious people, this is what I meant: Matthew 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
All scripture is given... for reproof. Who are these words addressed to today, do you think?
I, too, have repented - but of being one of those who "shut the kingdom of heaven" by making the Jesus Way look like a ritualistic religion for people who like ceremony, school and meetings and will dress and act a certain way, instead of modeling it as an attractive, living faith for "all who will call upon the name of the Lord."
As I've said to a dear friend, "Someone may turn to the Lord because of a train wreck. I will not for that reason recommend train wrecks as an evangelistic tool." To add some humor to a heated discussion...
Blessings! Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
posted
Thank you for hearing me, Laurie Ann. I wasn't sure I was getting through. And I stand corrected in that "Woe to you scribes and pharisees..." is a curse, although Jesus didn't call down fire on them which is what I was getting at.
The truth has a sharp enough point and sting to it. It doesn't need our help to make it sharper. I think we can both be straight, direct and uncompromising while being compassionate, kind and merciful. We can both be reasoned with - so let's prove it.
In the end, Christ will separate His sheep from the goats; not IC folks from HC folks. Tares will grow up together with the wheat and not separated out until the end by angels no matter where they assemble together. We should be careful not to hold too tightly to this Home Church label or identifier lest we be filled with pride that "We're not like those IC'ers...."
I have the same contempt for organizational rules, regulations and teaching for doctrine the commandements of men. But you know, that isn't IC specific. That's just carnal man. I'll bet if we heard from everyone in the HC world we'd hear of that same stuff going too. On the other hand, there are some IC's that act more like a HCs than ICs. That was my earlier point not to cast a blanket judgement on ICs. HCs aren't anymore pure than ICs simply becuase they're HCs. Let's face it, we can all be a bunch of wretches at times no matter where or how we fellowship.
I looked again at the title of this forum: Bridging the Gap. I misread it earlier thinking of a bridge from IC to HC. Please allow me to reset myself...(click) ahh! that's better! Now, that I'm on the same page, can there really be a bridging of the gap? Interesting question. Another one is: Does it matter? Does there have to be a bridge? Not sure. Maybe the best thing for us is to be open to what God wants to do with His church (since it is His). Maybe what He does here in Bayfield, CO will be different than what He does in Paris, TX. Different doesn't always mean wrong - just different (as long as it doesn't violate the scriptures). Some New Testament churches had deacons and some didn't. Why? Apparently there was a need. Some churches must have had more structure than others - is that wrong? No. So again, let's wait and see. Let's keep flexible (wineskin)concerning form so we can receive more new wine and walk this out a step at a time according to the light of the Word.
posted
Ah, yes... the original discussion on IC/HC gap was started by a "pastor" who wondered how he could "serve house churches" while still being an IC pastor, and was not too happy that most of us responded... not much!
The big rub is "without violating the scriptures". I had always felt like we were doing great violence to so many scriptures... "all of you"... "every one has a word" "greater things than these you will do" ... "go to a man"... "ends of the earth"... "call no man 'Rabbi'" "don't you know YOU are the temple?..." "you are a royal priesthood..." "you don't need anyone to teach you..." and kept asking the question (mostly in my journals) "Why aren't we doing what Jesus and Peter and Paul told us very plainly to do?" I kept waiting for the "leadership" to lead the way... while I made lists of the commands we were clearly not obeying.
Well, when I turned 45, I was an eldress, and it was my turn to lead! So... I stepped out to obey the Word, and when I did, I discovered I was not alone! And when I turned to look back, I was totally appalled by what I saw through my new eyes. "Have I really been doing THAT all these years?" Literally thousands of hours taken away from doing what I was supposed to do in order to support what now seemed to be a three-ring circus. It's now so obvious to me, that I can't believe I never saw it before... at least not as clearly. (Oh! Is THAT why I has a nervous breakdown, without seeing a sinngle soul for my trouble. "God's will done God's way will not lack God's supply." I get it now!)
But my vehemence isn't toward those who aren't interested, but for those who sense there is something else and really want to discuss what that might be. I don't want anyone to feel, as I did, that no one ever explained what it means to "find a man of peace", what it means to "BE the church" instead of to go to church, or what a church multiplication movement would mean to "my beloved people".
Blessings! LA
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
posted
I haven't had much success in bridging this gap but I'll leave it open ended for now. I have 3 brothers in the ic, you see, and haven't got very far with them, yet. I've also reached an impasse on several other ic fronts.
George Barna, btw, maintains that "the gap" has actually been filled as an unimaginable 80% of house churchers are still associated with a traditional church. I am surprised that 80% of us could agree on what day of the month it is. Guess I was wrong. Good.
The scribes and pharasees, as a whole, rejected Jesus, his claims, and his salvation. This cannot be said of most in the IC - therefore I cannot write them off.
The scribes and pharasees, as a whole, rejected Jesus, his claims, and his salvation. This cannot be said of most in the IC - therefore I cannot write them off.
Hey, D- I wasn't writing my dear brethren off - only justifying speaking more firmly to them than to unbelievers. And it worked for Jesus - some Pharisees took his words to heart, even though they were (presumably) offended - pretty much deliberately - by Jesus. I'm more afraid of coddling those who are hiding disobedience behind the, "That's not nice, you are being judmental" defense, than offending those who are confident they are where they should be.
As for "separating tares and wheat", Jesus indicated we were to check fruit. Paul said (1 Cor. 11:31) "But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment."
When I'm addressing the kingdom of God issues, I'm judging "us", myself included, for fruit. The fruit has been scanty and poor. I'm not sure House Church will do better, but I'm hopeful we won't do worse - and I think it is important to shatter our illusions as to the reality of what we have been doing, what the consequences have been, and how we can do it better. 0 growth isn't good. Disgraced pastors isn't good. Disenfranchised children isn't good. The mockery of the world at large isn't good.
The strange thing is, I don't feel like anything I'm saying is controversial - I'm not saying what "I think", I'm saying what "everyone knows"!
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
posted
Thank you muchly for the clarification, sister.
As I have indicated, the hc/ic bridging thing has not been my forte. It looks to be a process which would possibly take a period of time - each case different. What you do while you wait is unknown to me.
Here's a few more ideas which may have relevance:
2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him AS A BROTHER.
Also, you will remember that when Jesus was preached from the wrong motive, Paul still rejoiced:
Philippians 1:18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,
Truth cannot be presented without exposing error. That I know.
posted
Just finding some of your old posts on the BIG/Little debate. I must say the black or white positions are hard to understand. Let us say, for conversation purposes there are 6 good things about little church. Let us also say there may be 6 good things about big church, even if there were 600 bad things!(I think 600 is on the high side) Is it not reasonable to do big-little church that offers a dozen good things? Rich
1. Usually very nice buildings! Steeples are not the rage right now...but think...chances are they will be coming back into style again someday! 2. You gotta love those bells on Sunday morning. It's enough to bring a smile to a pagan's lips. I like waking up to them on a Sunday morning! 3. Ample parking. Neighbours, also, can use these parking lots when they have huge get-togethers as well! Bonus! 4. Get togethers in the parking lot after service. Unless there are multiple services and people get irate and honk at you, of course! 5. Getting tax returns from the Government. You gotta love getting back some cash after selflessly giving to the big church. Who says that there are no rewards in this life?! 6. Catchy sounding biblical type names. It makes one feel so more holier when you are sitting in the pew of a building with such a biblical sounding name!
Can anyone add to this list? I'm just scratching the surface here! There is a lot more surface things to scratch about big church.
posted
Well, Rich, I don't know what to say. Once again, there is nothing that is "good" about IC that is not "better" about the New Testament model house church. And I keep thinking, "If Jesus wanted this, wouldn't he have mentioned it somewhere??"
That, then, becomes a stewardship issue. Stewardship of my time, money, energy and space. IC takes too much time, in relation to its fruit. It takes way too much money, in relation to the genuine needs of people. It takes too much energy away from my own family. The space wasted on lawns could be used to grow food or have homes for people.
Then, too: The OBJECT of the church is to love the people who don't want to go there. The invitation to "come to church" is such a downer! People who don't love Jesus already feel manipulated, exposed, and taken advantage of when they go there. It isn't "loving my neighbor" to drag them somewhere that even most saints think is "boring" unless they are in charge! Church isn't boring if you are preaching, singing or teaching. It is very boring when you are being preached at, sung at or teached at about something you are not interested in. If you are unregenerate, it is a turn off.
"We will have all of eternity to celebrate our victories, but only a few hours in which to win them!" - Amy Carmichael. Church is all about "celebrating", which I believe we should do occasionally, just not so constantly that we don't have time to win victory over the Enemy of our Souls who doesn't take 30 hours a week off for church.
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
quote:Laurie Ann said: The invitation to "come to church" is such a downer! People who don't
(Matthew adds; and do)
quote:love Jesus already feel manipulated, exposed, and taken advantage of when they go there. It isn't "loving my neighbor" to drag them somewhere that even most saints think is "boring" unless they are in charge! Church isn't boring if you are preaching, singing or teaching. It is very boring when you are being preached at, sung at, or teached at...
Worth the quote box!!! Boy do I agree with every word of this!!!
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
posted
What is so great is that I share your view of the EXISTING INSTITUTIONS. What is so odd is that I see wonderful potential for change, reform, resurrection of the body, in this understanding of tradition caused problems, and "some" here can not see any potential in the existing, and might I add long lasting systems. I find this very interesting. Like each of you I am fully assured of MY assignment. (unlike the other poor Richard who was here seeking some shared vision of the future) Could this be confirmation that His Spirit will show EACH of us what we NEED SEE for our respective task? Rich
posted
Funny thing about how we use words. I see 1 billion catholics(thats 1,000,000,000) and nearly another 1 billion Heinz 57 variety as still unleavened. Could their leaders replace focus on information with inspiration? Yes, they could. Could they replace programs with passion? Yes, they could. Could they replace dogma with dialogue? Yes, they could. Could they replace top down authority with bottom up growth? Yes, they could. Could they replace spectators with Spirit filled activist? Yes, they could. I wonder, what will you say if they do? Rich
quote:Originally posted by Rich 1: What is so great is that I share your view of the EXISTING INSTITUTIONS. What is so odd is that I see wonderful potential for change,
I did too, Rich. We tried them all - we did Cell Groups in three different churches, we did "mobilization!" we did Your Home a LightHouse, we did prayer walks and door-to-door evangelism. We even went to work at the most successful church in Japan, and undertook various things. We've sung for 1000 people, gathered 250 unbelievers in one place to hear the gospel... still nuthin'... that's when we began to read the scriptures for ourselves and read, "My yoke is easy..." Well, if his yoke is easy, then why am I sick, exhausted, anxiety disordered and depressed? And why are all the church women I know in my age group in the same condition????
The model will not work, because "form determines function". If you build a clubhouse for likeminded people, then what you are going to have is a club for likeminded people. How many times, through the years were we disgusted with people who thought "church was a social club"... Well, guess what - they were right, I was wrong. It was a social club.
And I'm way too busy with real life to spend precious hours on a social club. Unless the social club is a place where I can share life-on-life with people in a meaningful way.
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
posted
Well,John It seems that one of us knows that, and one of knows that they will! Yes, Matthew that does seem to be where are paths split, some see things as they are and ask why, some see things that are not and ask why not? (Robert Kennedy) Is it nice when some share the vision? Sure. Do I expect it? Not really.
All evidence indicates that church in the house, is vital to reestablish the true, activist church. Can any claim that church confined to the house level is all there is to church? On another site I just entered notes from an interview on "organic church" key concept was SIMPLE church.low overhead, apostolic mission focused- heart of Jesus -so seek and save,desire to give His Kingdom to others, not about coming to, about BEING SENT, not important that the church live for years but that it give birth.
I guess I want to ask are there folks who think they have a monopoly on these understandings? Rich
I think it begins by removing all the wool that has been pulled over our collective eyes. From there, if we can get that far, we begin again to uncover and discover the simplicity which is in Christ. The fact that it is new terroritory means we will make mistakes and have to be patient. But ultimately I believe that we will move forward, providing we are well pleasing to God.
I believe in the networking of HC's so as to have greater gifting and wisdom. I believe this is a way that God approves of. Without a building and salaries for hirelings we can thus liberate more workers for the harvest. Truly a simple plan.
Spiritually speaking, we have a ways to go. But, we will never get anywhere unless we begin to follow the Lord "without the camp". Now, we just need to have more faith.
quote:Originally posted by Rich 1: Can any claim that church confined to the house level is all there is to church? Rich
Oh, My, Rich! If I've let you think that I am saying THAT then I haven't communicated very well!
Here's a basic overview of our family vision:
"Our vision is ministry to families, as the basis of fellowship, sharing, and social reform. Agricultural training for both health restoration, independent provision for the household, and viable skills for entrance into communities elsewhere in terms of making the good news accessible to those who do not yet have a chance to decide for themselves to obey Jesus or not. It is part of our commitment to a lifestyle of simplicity and kingdom-centered purpose. Our view of the family is that of home-centered community: raising children at home, keeping the home as the center of life, not a mere pit-stop, and of encouraging a wider household than merely nuclear units.
There are many families we've met who have responded to various part of this vision. The central theme is "home is where the Kingdom is", yet our responsibility is to expand it through other homes, other nations.
We are actively working to develop our own family and community as a three generation business-as-proclamation, apostolic team, with branches in at least three nations - a home branch in the US, a secondary branch in an "open" country for recruiting apostles, and an edge pusher in a not-so-open country where we can simply live and be part of a community that may want to know about the gospel and has no one to ask.
For us, That's All.
Blessings, LA
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
quote:Laurie Ann said: ...a home branch in the US, a secondary branch in an "open" country for recruiting apostles, and an edge pusher in a not-so-open country where we can simply live and be part of a community that may want to know about the gospel and has no one to ask.
Hey Laurie Ann, Just a few quick question... How did you come up with this "vision"? Is this what kinda fits your family's gifts, or is it what you feel The Bible wants you to do? Do you feel every follower of Christ should aim toward this goal?
The Lord's Blessings on you, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
posted
Here's a tiny answer. I think the life God laid out for us was a full, rich life full of family, food, fun and fertility, mostly on farms but with some villages and merchants to smooth the way.
In this fallen world we have man's plan of day care, institutions, factories and nursing homes in smog infested high-rises.
I'm not going to diss the Amish for trying to recreate Eden, which gives people a unique hunger for God's ways in one sense. And I'm not going to say that Floyd McClung wasn't doing God's will by living on the streets of Amsterdam reaching out to hookers.
This is where our family feels we can do the greatest good of bridging the now and the not-yet.
With hunger and poverty and wickedness in high places being such huge issues in the world, and yet money and "church planting" not really working to overcome, we feel it to be a most strategic use of our lives to build Eden and the Kingdom in the most reproducible possible way at the same time, and to spread both if we can.
Perhaps the most important thing is to be Intentional in our living. So much of our lives tends to be shaped by what people around us are doing. To be intentional is to question everything, and to seek God's highest with no assumptions of "normal" being what we see around us.
Blessings, LA
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
quote:Laurie Ann said: Perhaps the most important thing is to be Intentional in our living. So much of our lives tends to be shaped by what people around us are doing. To be intentional is to question everything, and to seek God's highest with no assumptions of "normal" being what we see around us.
That's what I was trying to do ...and it almost killed me. I guess that's why I feel so lost. Maybe I just didn't question enough...
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
posted
Well, I'm guessing you didn't balance the three "biggies" - the Word, the Spirit and the Community.
Getting out of balance in any of those three messes us up. If we are into the Word with no Spirit or Community we become dead in the law. If we have the Spirit without the other two we become kooks. If we have the community without the other two, we are worldly.
We even have to be "intentional" in this balance: Did we check with the Word? Did we check with the Spirit? Did we check with people who care?
Of course, we also have to ask, "Does this make basic sense?" And "Does this make sense in my circumstances?"
I think, having realized you got a bit off, you are nearly there to being healed. After all, "self-deception" is the hardest hurdle to overcome. "The enemy inside my own brain" tends to be pretty insidious!
Blessings, LA
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
posted
Hi LA, I think you have just given a parallelism that is very useful...the OT speaks of the trio of Wisdom, Understanding, and Knowledge...the principle one of course being wisdom. In the NT we have faith, hope and love...the principle one here is love. You have fused the 2 into one! (I like your addition of the brethren in the mix )
quote:Laurie Ann said: Well, I'm guessing you didn't balance the three "biggies" - the Word, the Spirit and the Community.
I'm still not totally sure what happened. However, I think I replaced The Scriptures with The Word only... but I'm not totally sure of that! (Scripture being The Bible, and The Word being what I felt The Lord was personally directing me to do.) It does help me personally to blame myself instead of The Lord though...
The truth is, I really felt I was getting the go-ahead from The Spirit, and I never did anything (I can recall) that wasn't "approved" by someone I considered (to be at least) my "spiritual" equal. I often even got the "go-ahead" from those who were in some way "over" me, and I never did anything my wife wasn't on board with as well!?! WHAT IN THE WILD, WILD WORLD OF SPORTS HAPPENED!!!
I mean, you have known me here long enough to know that I try and be very careful of what I say and do. I HATE surprises!!! I was raised to read The Bible, listen to "that still small voice", and consult wise counsel...
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
posted
Thanks, John. I like finding patterns, too.
Well, Matthew, sorry I can't seem to give ya 3 points an' a poem to nail the problem Sigh.
We'll keep seeking the wisdom with you to figure out whether you did anything wrong, or was it just "time and chance happen to everyone"?
There have been a couple of times in our lives that we were sure we were doing what God wanted us to do, and things fell through that we were pretty sure it was someone else not doing what THEY were supposed to do.
We aren't victims of course, God took care of us and gave us another course. But while certain times I looked back and thought that I had messed up, other times I was pretty sure it wasn't me.
Don't know if this might apply?
As J Christy Wilson (I think it was) used to say, "God's will is thwarted every day!" (Meaning, every time a lost soul dies without Him... but applicable elsewhere as well.) God's overarching purposes move steadily on, but man by man we fail him.
Blessings, LA
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
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