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R C Cafe » Basic Issues » Institutional Churches » Ted was right on about this.
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Author Ted was right on about this.
D Anderson
      Bristol, TN USA


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"Our bookshelves are full of Christian books and videos. We have churches on every major street, more staff workers than ever before, large Sunday school departments, cell systems, mega- and meta-church seminars. We have Christian bumper stickers, political action groups, huge parachurch ministries – and in the midst of it all, we have lost every major city in North America."

In 1999, Wolfgang Simson included that quote from Ted Haggard in his book Houses that Change the World.

DPoag
      Coachella Valley, CA


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Could it be that we are depending on all these things instead of simply sharing Christ with those we encounter on a daily basis? I know I'm not.
D Anderson
      Bristol, TN USA


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I agree, DP.

Poor Ted. While he was seducing others, Satan was seducing him. I really feel for his "lover" - imagine how confused he must be. Likewise, his drug supplier. Likewise, Ted's wife and family.

But for the grace of God, there go I. Let us not take our eyes off Jesus.

JeffL
      Virginia U.S.A.


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I don't think it is so much that we are depending upon all these "things" rather than holding up Christ. All of them are intended to "hold up Christ," right? I think the problem is we are holding up a "false Christ"--anti-christ, if you please.

Our beliefs shape our life. We live according to what we consider to be truth. Is it any wonder then that we fail when we trample on God's law while at the same time holding up his grace to forgive our transgression of that law? Is it any wonder that we fail to grow in Christian graces when we are taught that once we are saved we cannot be loosed. I mean, man, if you are already saved then why go through the pangs of self denial? And what kind of damage do you think it does to our consciences when we sin in the morning and confess to a mortal man that night?

Do we as Christians pray to a false Christ for the same reason Catholics pray to Mary? Do we consider the True Son too stern, too severe, too strict, too demanding, and less compassionate than his mortal, sinful, Mother? No wonder we have so many instances of unfaithfulness; We are relying on our own righteousness to get us through. Ours is a system of lies, half-truths, and itching ear ointment because the very existence of our natural man is threatened by the truth and he fights to survive. He accepts just enough religion to ease his guilt but not enough to change his heart.

For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.

Laurie Ann
      Tulsa Metro


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It's sad that Haggard did not find his way out of the maze in time. His fall is not aberrational, as some might think, but completely symptomatic of the model. He saw the effect (losing the cities) but not the cause (church-as-we-know-it).

I was once talking with a "pastor" who was interested in alternative, but not really convinced radical change was necessary.

When I reflected on the history of our pastors I counted:

1. Committed suicide
2. Son in jail for financial scam from trading on "daddy's reputation"
3. Divorce
4. Fine so far (?!?)
5. Destroyed the church
6. Divorce
7. Son committed suicide
8. Wife in psych hospital

The pastor I was talking with had his wife leave him shortly thereafter. His children's faces were "dead", which was probably the saddest thing. They were not inheriting the 'blessing of the righteous'. Children struggling spiritually was certainly the norm for these families as well - few had really acquired their own walk with God.

One pastor out of eight having a reasonably healthy family life isn't good statistics!

One wonders what it will take to make the church give it up!

--------------------
You & Me and Jesus.
We are enough!

JeffL
      Virginia U.S.A.


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LA wrote: It's sad that Haggard did not find his way out of the maze in time. His fall is not aberrational, as some might think, but completely symptomatic of the model. He saw the effect (losing the cities) but not the cause (church-as-we-know-it).

We are all familiar with the scripture "having a form of godliness but [rejecting] the power thereof." Most likely Haggard's story fits into this category.

There was an interesting story that happened years ago which I believe demonstrates this facade. Its a story of hypocrisy. A story of people who profess and feign piety but in whose life there is no witness of conversion. The story goes like this...

During the 1800's there was a push to establish Sunday as a sacred holy day by civil law; not so unlike the present. The pastors, flaunting their supposed piety and boasting great concern for the sanctity of the day, pressured business men to close on Sunday in its honor. They convinced some railroads to close during a period of our history when the railroad was an important means of transportation.

What happened was that the pastors who called for the railroads to be closed still required their services to carry "the church" to their destinations on certain Sundays. And much to the compliant businessman's chagrin, they hired the services of their competitors which had not closed. So it was all for show but not backed by principle.

This demonstrates that if men will not obey God's laws no manner of civil law will correct their behavior. While we beg for legislature to "stop" us and reform our behavior there remains no power within us to restrain ourselves. The power for that kind of heart change comes only from God. And God gives his Holy Spirit to those who obey. (Act 5:32).

That verse has always confused me (Act 5:32). I mean, how can we obey unless we have the power of the Holy Spirit? But I believe the verse means that God gives the power of the Holy Spirit to those who will to obey. When I say "will to obey" I am referring to the exercise of our free will to choose to serve God rather than sin. Remember, we each have free will. We can decide, because God gives us the choice, whom we will obey. Though we cannot, with our sin-weakened will, keep our promises, we can make the choice and exert determined effort in good faith of God's promise to help. When we decide for God and put forth our best human effort (though it never can attain) then the power of the Holy Spirit is given to strengthen us and produce in us both a desire and an ability to obey. (Phil 2:13). The Divine Nature is linked with our human nature and it is Christ living in us while our old man is dead.

So, while Ted could see and describe the problem his faith did not present to him a cure. Perhaps he believed in election and/or predestination which tends to remove our will from the equation. Yet, there will be many people who desiring to be Christians never actually choose to be a Christian. They do not understand the power of the will nor how it must be willingly surrendered and linked with Christ's will.

Well, I am wondering off the topic a bit so I will end.

   

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