posted
(The following portrays one possible scenario which could prepare the way for the formation of the image of the beast.)
There are specific things we know will happen in our future which are foretold in scripture. For example, we know these things from scripture:
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name�s sake.
Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Re 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Now, here's the scenario.
Nobody in this world likes a righteous person. We call them "teacher's pets," "brown nosers," "goody two-shoes," �mommy or daddy's favorite,� �tattle-tells,� �rat finks,� �squealers,� "self-righteous," and other unkind nomenclatures. Why is this so. Why did the crowd crucify Christ? Because his righteous life condemned their sin. They were left without excuse. They felt their guilt and it made them uncomfortable. And when they couldn't lead him to sin they desired to kill him. It will be the same when the church becomes like Christ.
Now the (almost) whole of Christendom and beyond is convinced that Christ will return to this world and usher in a 1000 year reign of peace. He will rule the nations with a rod of iron. If this is how they believe then I believe this will lead them to establish laws to enforce morality. They will only be able to accomplish this if they can control the governments. If the IC takes over our government then we will become a Church-state. The church will make the laws and the civil government will enforce them. Just as the Holy Roman Empire (aka RCC) did in her past when she had control of the nations and was motivated by a like mission. Human men will think to establish an earthly theocracy. Truly this is the spirit of anti-christ.
And, ultimately, they will enact legislation to put to death anyone who does not conform to this state-run, religious, system (religio-politico). Those who will not believe the lie (marked in their forehead) or will not succumb for economic reasons (marked in their hands) will not be allowed to buy or sell. The United States uses this coercive measure all the time by imposing economic sanction on Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, China, etc. This they do to force them to comply. They will eventually use this tactic on their own people to get them to comply. The scripture states this very thing. I believe the United States is that nation, that beast, that is spoken of in Revelation 13. Nations speak through their legislation. When the United States makes laws establishing religion against the 1st Amendment, then the lamb-like nation with her two horns of power--freedom of religion and democracy�will �speak as a dragon� and fulfill this prophecy.
And, since they believe they are acting in the interest of God, they will feel no remorse for putting to death honest, god-fearing, people simply because they choose to retain their god-given right to exercise freedom to worship according to the dictates of their own conscience.
Saul of the NT is a good example of the kind of zeal that can posses religious people with warped beliefs. This very carnage will be repeated. This will be our great tribulation. But by faith and loyalty to God we will overcome and stand in our day.
quote:Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
What will usher in this polarization of our current mindset? Hasn't terrorism begun the chain of events? Study the Patriot Act if you wish to understand how our government, in the name of freedom, has taken away our constitutional freedoms. Our constitution gaurantees us the right to be secure in our personal effects and home. But the Patriot Act states, how can we prevent terrorist acts if we can't search, seize, ease-drop, and detain? Agreed! But at what cost?
Now think of our present age and read this passage from scripture. Then ask yourself, what could possibly convince the world to give up their freedom in exchange for security?
quote:And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
WWI
Korean
WWII
Cuba threat
Veitnam
Cold War threat of WWIII
And then they said, "Peace and safety." But there is no peace and safety. What is coming is sudden destruction--the 2nd Coming of Christ. But they have made a covenant with death and an agreement with hell. But the Lord will disannul their covenant with death and their agreement with hell. They shall not escape the coming destruction.
We continue in Matthew:
quote:For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
What about tsunamis, hurricanes, flooding, forest fires, landslides, train wrecks, tornados, blizzards, aids, ecoli, flu, mad-cow, divorce, murder of wives and children, lewdness of adults with children, homosexual priests, child-molestations, rapes.
Everyone is doing what feels good to themselves without regard for the feeling of others.
quote:This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
I continue in Matthew...
quote:All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name�s sake.
This will be our great tribulation!
(The scenario is based upon the verses cited at the top of this post. This is my view and not nessessarily the view of this cafe.)
Your senerio is quite possible. However, I believe the beast (government) and the harlot (false religion) have been persecuting the church from Christ's time to the present. What of Nero, the inquisition, or how about the Christians in China today? Somehow, I think Christians of those times thought their government was the beast. I understand that often in any type of persecution over the course of history that sanctions were taken against Christians that they couldn't buy and sell. I believe the beast was Nero's government, the Roman Catholic Empire, Communisium, and even our own government today is leaning in that direction.
Note that Revelation has several parallels. It describes the church and it's end. It describes the world and it's end. It describes the government, the false church, and Satan, and and their ends. It finally describes the kingdom of heaven after all else is destroyed. The book is not in chronological order but shows the same time period over and over from different perspectives. It begins shortly after it was given to John and ends with the new Jerusalem in the heavenlies. It records the battle between good and evil, the Lord and Satan, the church and the world through out all history until the end of the world.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
IMO, I believe a lot of what you say is true. And I agree with most of it but I take exception to including Nero in the list or any other government which is not politico-religio (church-state). The reasons are simple. This nation (beast) legislates worship.
Our government is "leaning" in that direction but has not arrived yet. Because, we still enjoy religious freedom in principal even if prayer is not allowed in government institutions.
Also, we cannot say that this dragon-speaking nation has existed yet because all the specifics in the prophecy have not yet been fulfilled. For example, the first politico-religio nation which received the deadly wound has not been healed. And, this is a world-wide system, not local to a particular region. The whole world is involved here.
quote:Rev 13
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Do you see my point?
Given the detailed points in scripture regarding the timing and nature of the first beast, this can describe only one world-wide, politico-religio, system--the Roman Catholic Empire which ruled the world for over 1000 years until it's political engine was destroyed by Napoleon's general and a civil government was instituted in its place. This became what was then called "The Roman Question," and existed in this state until 1929 when Mussolini and the Pope signed a concordat returning property to the Vatican and once again recognizing the statehood of the Holy See. (Please click on this link to read about the ... ) Roman Question http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0828964.html See also: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0839238.html
In 1980, President Reagan sent an Ambassador to the Vatican signifying that America recognized that the RCC existed as a church-state government. While the Vatican is not a voting member of the United Nations it does have power to convene a session.
I would like to demonstrate, point by point, from scripture why I believe this first beast is the Papacy. Would you like to hear my reasons? I think they are well grounded.
Sure, fire away. BTW, wasn't the Roman Empire in existence during Christ day? I'm not up on my history too much, but wasn't Nero the one who burned Rome or was it Napoleon? Remember they fiddled while Rome burned. Thus, he was a Roman too. Burning Christians as garden lamps just because they were Christians seems to be a bit of a state-religious type government to me. I've seen some explain much about the RC and how they were wounded, had 10 heads, etc. and a lot of it makes sense. I do believe much of that has already happened.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Look at these verses and answer this simple questions. Bare with me. Forgive me if this is review and the questions are childish. It will progress.
Question: Who is the man child in this verse?
"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Rev 12:5"
If you answered Jesus, that is correct.
Question: Who is the dragon in this verse?
"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."
Satan is the right answer. Or, it rather refers to the power (Satan) working behind the Roman officials. They were his agents doing his business.
Study this timeline I created from history books. Notice the dates and events and the sequence. This will be important to our study. You should be able to verify a lot of this from Encyclopedias because I got most of it from that source.
You will see that Rome ruled the world when Christ walked the earth. Joseph and Mary came to Bethleham to pay taxes imposed by a Roman official. Joseph fled into Egypt with Mary and Jesus to escape the death decree of Herod. Jesus appeared before Roman officials at his trial.
Review this timeline.
4004BC Creation Week (approx.) Day 1 - Light (Day) and Darkness (Night) Day 2 - Heavens (Firmament) Day 3 - Dry Lands, Grass, Herbs, Fruit Trees Day 4 - Sun, Moon, and Stars Day 5 - Fish and Fowl Day 6 - Man/Woman (Marriage), Living creatures, creeping things Day 7 - Rest Day (Sabbath), Memorial of Creation, "made for man" ????BC Fall of Adam and Eve 2325BC The Flood (approx.) 1950BC Abraham - God made a covanent (of grace) with him [his seeds] Begat Isaac who begat Jacob Jacob's 12 sons - progenitors of Israel's 12 ancient tribes 605BC BABYLON - "The Gates of the gods" IDOLATRY Rules the world until 539 BC Head of Gold (Dan 2:38) Lion (Dan 7) 539BC MEDO-PERSIA - Cyrus and Darius PERSECUTION Co-rules the world until 331 BC (Dan 5:30-31) Arms and Chest of Silver (Dan 2) Bear raised up on one side (Persians stronger) (Dan 7) 457BC Ezra 7 - Decree of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem Beginning of the 2300 day prophecy of Dan 8:14 * 7 weeks of Dan 9:25 408BC Neh. 7 - Street and Wall complete (the gate was hung) * 62 weeks of Dan 9:27 starts 331BC GREECE - Alexander the Great GREAT POWER Rules the world until 168 BC (Dan 7:6) Abdomen and Thighs of Brass (Dan 2) Leopard with four wings [rapid] (Dan 7) Alexander the Great died at age 33 after illness from drinking His kingdom was divided among his four generals (Dan 11:3-4) Cassander - Macedonia Ptolemy - Egypt Lysimachus - Asia Minor Seleucus - Syria
168BC PAGAN ROME - Comprised of previous kingdoms AMALGAMATION Rules the world until 476 AD (Dan 7:7) Legs of Iron (Dan 2) Terrible [mighty, fierce] beast (Dan 7) Tiberius Ceaser "raiser of taxes", brought Joseph & Mary to Bethleham Herod gives decree to kill infants in attempt to kill Jesus * 69th week of Dan 9 ends 27AD Jesus Baptized, became Messiah (Anointed One, "cut off" [sanctified]) * 70th week of Dan 9:27-28 begins (7days=7yrs, 27-34) 31AD Christ crucified (middle of the 70th week, Dan 9) Caused the Jewish ceremonial system of sacrifice to cease Christ had become the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world" 34AD Stephen Stoned. Christians flee city. Gospel goes to the gentiles. Paganism: Persecution of Christians by Nero. Diocletians. * 70th week of Dan 9 ends (Time determined for Daniel's people ends) 64AD Nero condemned Christians; charged with setting fire to Rome 70AD Jerusalem destroyed by Titus Jewish nation no longer God's chosen people ('cut off' the vine) 307AD Constantine became emperor of Roman Empire 313AD Nominal conversion of Constantine to Christianity Edict of Milan made Christianity legal - issued by Constantine 321AD Nicene Creed - Decree for Sunday worship 337AD Death of Constantine - start of "great disorder" in Roman Empire Christian church only living, growing force in Empire Barbarians hired to fill lack of people in armies Increased burden of support taxed resources to breaking point Prices rose, trade declined, men left cities for simpler farm life Government tried unsuccessfully to fix wages and prices Government tried to force men to stay in the towns 395AD Theodosius died. Roman Empire divided into East and West Roman Empire grew steadily weaker 410AD Visigoths capture, burn, loot city of Rome 439AD Vandals take Carthage - fanatically Arian, intolerant toward Catholics Vandals posed threat to supremecy of Catholic Church (seen as heretics) 455AD Vandals plunder Rome for 2 weeks
476AD Dissolution of Western Roman Empire Heruli rule over Rome, disposed Emperor Romulus Augustus Odovacar (Odoacer), an Arian, made himself king in Rome Empire divided into ten kingdoms (Dan 2, Dan 7:7,9) 1 Suevi - Portuguese 2 Lombards - Italians 3 Franks - French 4 Anglo-Saxons - English 5 Alemanni - Germans 6 Burgundians - Swiss 7 Visigoths - Spanish 8 Ostrogoths - (now extinct) 9 Heruli - (now extinct) 10 Vandals - (now extinct) Feet of Iron and Clay that won't mingle (Dan 2)
Off to a good start. I have seen this historical time line before and pretty much agree with it. I don't consider the dates set in stone for there is often some variation in exactly which year something occured even among historians. One thing I have noticed many do that I disagree with has to do with the 70 weeks. So far you have described it the way I see it except for one point which you didn't mention.
quote:Jesus Baptized, became Messiah (Anointed One, "cut off" [sanctified]) 31AD Christ crucified (middle of the 70th week, Dan 9) Caused the Jewish ceremonial system of sacrifice to cease Christ had become the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world" 34AD Stephen Stoned. Christians flee city. Gospel goes to the gentiles.
I see the last 3 1/2 years (between 31 and 34AD in your time line) as the time the gospel continued to be preached to the Jews and lost tribes of Israel. Then as you stated the gospel goes to the Gentiles. I only mention it because it was a point of long thought in my own journey to understanding for the passage doesn't clearly explain exactly what happens during that last 3 1/2 period of time dealing with the Jews. However, in the NT we know that the disciples continued preaching to the Jews just after Christ death. They later began the ministry to the Gentiles.
Many place a 2000+ year time gap between either the 69th and 70th or the 69 1/2 and 70th week to make the so called 7 or 3 1/2 year trib period. However, scripture doesn't show either anywhere. Nor is there any reason to believe that God would place a 2000 year gap in a prophesy that was fulfilled in exact timing. The Jews had no excuse for not knowing who Jesus was as he came just when predicted.
Another point you didn't mention is the covenant. Many teach it is the antichrist that sets up a coventant for 7 years and breaks it in the middle. However, I believe it is clearly a reference to Christ's new covenant and him being cut off in the midst of the week.
I agree with your 3 points and can easily add the first one. But the other two I will have to consider, not because they are not true but because they are not easily proven.
And, yes, some of the dates are approximations. I tried to note those but may have missed some. Even the stoning of Stephen may not have happened in 34AD--some claim.
More specifically, I agree with your other two points in this context:
quote: Many place a 2000+ year time gap between either the 69th and 70th or the 69 1/2 and 70th week to make the so called 7 or 3 1/2 year trib period. However, scripture doesn't show either anywhere. Nor is there any reason to believe that God would place a 2000 year gap in a prophesy that was fulfilled in exact timing. The Jews had no excuse for not knowing who Jesus was as he came just when predicted.
You are correct! "We have also a more sure word of prophecy..." 2 Peter 1:19 This was definitely Jesus who sealed up the prophecy of Daniel with baptism of water, the sacrifice of his blood, and the witness of the spirit proclaiming, "This is my beloved Son." "1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth."
quote: Another point you didn't mention is the covenant. Many teach it is the antichrist that sets up a coventant for 7 years and breaks it in the middle. However, I believe it is clearly a reference to Christ's new covenant and him being cut off in the midst of the week.
Again, you are correct. The first covenant was confirmed with the blood of animals. "Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood." Being only a shadow of the true, it was necessary that Jesus confirm the new covenant with better things being his blood. Therefore, it was necessary for Jesus to spill his blood. Heb 9:16 "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator." Daniel foretold of this event in prophecy stating, Da 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
The one week represents 7 years as our pre-trib brethren rightly interpret the time span. Jesus' ministry was 7 years exactly. But, as Daniel foretold, in the midst of that 7 year period Jesus was slain, bringing an end to the earthly sacrificial system. There is now no more need of animal sacrifices, now that the True Lamb has been slain.
Someone may question how Jesus confirmed the covenant for 1 week if he died in the midst. That is easy. His disciples finished the work he began. Matt 10:5,6 "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." And they did until the persecution started around the time Stephen was stoned. Acts 8:3,4"As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word."
The rest of that verse explains how because of the Jews abominations Christ made their temple desolate. And according to this prophecy that will last until the consumation, which is the end of all time, when the earth is destroyed by fire. In other words, the temple will not be rebuilt according to this prophecy. The final act will be the pouring out of the judgment upon them, the desolate. I will admit I am wrong if the temple is rebuilt. But I wouldn't wait for that. Jesus will come as a thief while you are least expecting him.
Did you agree with my assessment that Jesus is the man child caught up to heaven, and Satan is the dragon that wanted to kill him? Then, are you ready to continue?
I see we are in much agreement so far. And yes, the man child is Christ and the dragon is Satan. Sorry, by the time I had read the whole post and wanted to comment I forgot to tell you I agreed on those two points.
As for proving there is no 2,000 year gap, we should remember that the prophesy specifically deals with the time given to work things out with the Jews. Nothing in the 70 weeks is pertaining to the Gentiles. The time of the Gentiles comes after the fulfilment. There is absolutely no mention of a 2,000+ period of time neither is any reason given for such a gap. That places the burden of proof on those who believe in such a gap to prove it from scripture. As for proving, the fulfillment of prophesy is proof enough for me. The 70 weeks was fulfilled completely by Christ and his disciples.
As for who the covenant involves, again much prophesy looked forward to the new covenant. Gramatically speaking, it is ridiculous to change the "he" from Christ to antichrist mid stream in a sentance. It is eaiser to understand if one understands that antichrist is ultimately a spirit regardless of which human elements he may use during a specific time in history. I believe that spirit to be Satan himself. The prophesy of the 70 weeks has nothing to do with Satan but rather the coming Messiah, the new covenant and kingdom of God.
The next question is what happened after the fall of the Roman Empire in 476AD. Was the Roman Empire defeated? Did another world power arise?
Daniel described 4 kingdoms which ruled in succession. When he came to the 4th kingdom, the Iron Monarchy of Rome, he described more of a crumbling than a defeat by another world power. But was the succession of power in Rome transferred to another entity? The Holy Roman Empire and the Papacy both followed. Was this foretold in prophecy?
Any remarks before we set out to discover the answers?
History tells us that Babylon ruled the earth from 605BC until defeated by the Medes and Persians in 539BC. Then Medo-Persia co-ruled from 539BC until Alexander the Great defeated them in 331BC. Greece (Alexander) was defeated by Rome in 168BC. The Iron Monarchy of Rome reigned until 476AD. Jesus was born and crucified when Rome ruled the earth. While we don't use history to prove the Bible, we can look back and see that the events detailed in the book of Daniel happened just as they were prophesied. This should establish our faith in the Bible as the word of God.
One thing I might add here is that we should remember that the kingdom of God was to be set up in the time of the four kingdoms. That has been fulfilled by Christ who said his kingdom was at hand and within their midst during his life. The everlasting kingdom began with his ministry during the reign of Rome.
Faith
BTW, you previously showed that Rome was divided into 10 different kingdoms, thus, what is the need for the European kingdoms. Are you refering to those or to some European group today?
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
Yes, the 10 Kingdoms I have called the European Kingdoms in another place. Not sure if European would be correct here. I should stick with the 10 Kingdoms, some of which went on to became part of what we now call Europe.
Regarding the Everlasting Kingdom of God. Yes, it was "in" them as Jesus said. But it has always existed. Yet, it is not an earthly kingdom in the sense that it will co-exist with other earthly kingdoms. Thus we pray, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done. On earth, as it is in heaven."
Another thing to note is that the rock in Daniel, representing God's kingdom, crushes the earthly kingdoms. When God sets up His kingdom on earth there will not be any secular kingdoms remaining. In fact, the earth will be destroyed by fire at the destruction of the wicked when God sends fire out of heaven to devour them. "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
After this, the earth will be made new. The old earth will pass away and the elements will burn with fervant heat. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
quote:Another thing to note is that the rock in Daniel, representing God's kingdom, crushes the earthly kingdoms. When God sets up His kingdom on earth there will not be any secular kingdoms remaining. In fact, the earth will be destroyed by fire at the destruction of the wicked when God sends fire out of heaven to devour them. "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
How can God set up his kingdom on earth after he destroys it? Where does scripture teach God will set up an earthly kingdom? Christ continually said his kingdom was not of this world . It was not observable with the physical eyes for it was never intended to be physical but rather spiritual. He set it up and it lasts forever. Please prove these things with scriptures.
Rev. 21:1 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
I see a new earth, not a remade earth. Also I don't see any scripture promoting a 1,000 year kingdom. God's kingdom is forever...thus, not physical. How can a physical kingdom last forever?
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
The following table begins to list notable characteristics of the beast of Revelation 13. This will aid us in determining who this beast is.
See waaay below.
Identifying the Beast of Revelation 13
SCRIPTURE
CHARACTERISTICS
1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Arises out of a populous region. Blasphemes
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Conglomeration of foregoing beasts. Arises after the dragon power. Dragon gives it an army, a throne, and rule.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Suffered a deadly wound. World amazed deadly wound healed.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Religious system Begs worship Undefeatable
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Blasphemes against God Blasphemes God's name Blasphemes God's tabernacle Blasphemes Saints
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Wars with Saints Overcomes Saints Rules the world
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Worshipped by whole world Worshipped by the Lost
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Let all who will hear, pay close attention to this warning.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Takes men captive Will be taken captive Kills by sword Killed by same sword Tries the Saints faith and patience
Next, we'll focus on each characteristic. Consider this! Whatever or whoever this identifies, all of the characteristics must apply.
posted
Now let's look at one characteristic of the beast power.
To whom or what did the dragon (in the personage of Rome) give power, a seat, and authority?
We have previously identified the "dragon" as the Roman Empire. Rome was the nation in power when Christ was born. King Herod decreed that baby Jesus should be killed. Therefore, Rome acted as Satan's agent when it stood ready to take the life of the man child born of the woman. (See Rev 12:4.) To understand when and how this transfer of power, and seat, and authority took place we must look at the fall of the Roman Empire. Rome officially fell in 476AD. Did the loss of Rome itself mark the end? If so, then the re-establishment of a recognized authority in Rome, as the seat of the Western Empire, would mark the transfer of power, seat, and authority.
"Under the direction of Tribonian, the Corpus Iurus Civilis [Body of Civil Law] was issued in three parts, in Latin, at the order of the Emperor Justinian."(From Medieval Sourcebook: The Institutes, 535 CE. URL: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/535institutes.html )
The Code of Justinian gave the Bishop of Rome power, a seat, and great authority. Thus, Bible prophecy was fulfilled. Due to historical timing and because Pagan Rome published a law giving power, a seat, and authority to Papal Rome, the first characteristic of the beast of Revelation 13 can only apply to the Catholic Church of 533AD. (URL: http://www.vitaphone.org/history/justinianc.html )
Scroll past the TOC, passed the three prefaces, to . . .
THE CODE OF OUR LORD THE MOST SACRED EMPEROR JUSTINIAN.
SECOND EDITION. BOOK I.
TITLE I.
CONCERNING THE MOST EXALTED TRINITY AND THE CATHOLIC FAITH, AND PROVIDING THAT No ONE SHALL DARE TO PUBLICLY OPPOSE THEM.
Read this online or look it up at your local library. Then get back to me with your response. We must make sure the other characteristics point to the Papacy as well before we come to our conclusion that Papal Rome is indeed the 1st Beast of Revelation 13.
quote:We have previously identified the "dragon" as the Roman Empire. Rome was the nation in power when Christ was born. King Herod decreed that baby Jesus should be killed. Therefore, Rome acted as Satan's agent when it stood ready to take the life of the man child born of the woman. (See Rev 12:4.) To understand when and how this transfer of power, and seat, and authority took place we must look at the fall of the Roman Empire. Rome officially fell in 476AD. Did the loss of Rome itself mark the end? If so, then the re-establishment of a recognized authority in Rome, as the seat of the Western Empire, would mark the transfer of power, seat, and authority.
Whoa, I thought you said Satan was the dragon in the first post. However, I do agree Rome acted as Satan's agent.
Where do you find all this stuff? I'm afraid I don't get into history enough to search to find these types of things. However, from scripture I see Jesus came and set up his kingdom during the time of the fourth kingdom Rome. I do not see any more kingdoms listed in that prophsey such as the popular teachings of a future government of 10 toes. Rome had the 10 toes. I do see the RC as the harlot sitting on the beast. The Roman Empire with the church as the head, leader, rider definately fit the description of the beast. I've seen some explain the 1260 was the number of years of the power of the RE under the RC during the time of the inqusition. Though as stated before, the dates vary according to who the historian is, I do see that Rome and Catholicism play a large part in Rev. thoroghout history. Even today the rc has much sway over governements. Oh, yea I also see the daughters of the harlot as traditional protestant groups.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Yes, definitely Satan is the dragon. But as Christ is the head of the church, the dragon is the head of all that opposses the church. That is why in Revelation 13:4 is says, "they worshipped the dragon." If we worship the Creator, then we are worshipping the only true God. If we worship this false religious system, then we are not worshipping the Creator, but rather, the dragon.
Where do I find all this stuff? When I was reading Daniel and Revelation I wanted to understand the prophecies and the nations involved. I knew that some of the prophecies were past history now, so I turned to history books like the World Book Encyclopedia, Gibbon's History of the Fall of the Roman Empire, History of the Reformation, History of Protestantism, History of the Catholic Church, and Our Country by Strong.
I had heard other theories and read many religious viewpoints but I believe that if we are going to know the truth we must see these things with our own eyes and understand them with our own intelligence. We cannot let others direct our steps or shape our beliefs. We must have a personal experience in the work of our salvation. Like the Bereans, right? Otherwise, what would I say later when questioned under a persecuting power? Would I say, "well, my pastor said such and such." To me that would leave me vulnerable to my inquisitors and they would overcome me with superior reasoning like a flood against a house built on sand.
Regarding Jesus' kingdom being setup in the time of Pagan Rome. Do you then see things getting better and better until it becomes perfect? Or, do you see, as the scripture says, that things will get worse and worse until Jesus comes and destroys the wicked and the earth by fire? At that time, Jesus creates a new earth and new heaven (atmosphere) and the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. There will be no need of light, for Jesus will be our light.
Regarding the ten toes. Are you also aware that during the time of the ten "toes" there are efforts put forth to unite those ten nations? If you read Daniel it says they attempt to unite them through marriage--"they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men." This refers to the intermarriage of the royalty of Spain, France, England, etc... all trying to unite the nations. Those efforts have also been attempted through wars. Have you heard of the likes of Charlemagne in the 8th century, Charles V in the 16th, Napoleon in the 19th, Kaiser Wilhelm II and Adolf Hitler in the 20th? Why did they fail? Because of Daniel chapter 2. Today, we have the European Union which is yet another attempt to unite Europe. This strategy employs economic bonds. Will they succeed? More on that later.
Now we come to another point which describes the setting up of God's kingdom and when it will take place. This is from Daniel chapter 2. Notice that God will set up His kingdom in the days of "these kings." This is after the fall of Rome when the nations are divided into iron and clay that does not mingle. Do not fail to miss this point or you will not be able to grasp what comes next.
quote:"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." --Daniel 2:44
Your view of the harlot and her daughters does nicely fit the RCC and the Protestant churches. The RCC calls herself the Mother church and these separated churches her daughters. Interesting, don't you think?
Are you ready to continue to reveal the identity of that 1st beast (nation) in Revelation 13?
quote:Regarding Jesus' kingdom being setup in the time of Pagan Rome. Do you then see things getting better and better until it becomes perfect?
Of course things in the world are getting worse and worse. However, in Jesus' kingdom, things are getting better and better as more people believe and become saints. Also saints continue to grow and mature becoming more and more like Christ but the finality shall of course be when he returns and we are totally changed into incorruptable.
I see the kingdom like this. Christ came to earth and set up a kingdom. He sent word out for people to come join his ranks via the gospel message. Once they believe and repent, they receive the spirit and are his sheep or his subjects in his kingdom. However, the king, Jesus, left the earth to go prepare a better place for us, a brand new earth. He told us to occupy til he returns for us. And that is just what we should do.
I agree we shouldn't rely on men but prove things ourself. Just never felt the urge to prove every detail in Rev. with history for I look at the bigger picture of good vs evil, saints vs world, Christ vs satan and especially the end when all wickness is destroyed and we are with the Lord forever more. The article you listed had so much before it, can't figure how I would wade through all that junk to find one article. History in the long form is so boring to me.
I've heard of the mingling toes.
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."
I believe that kingdom was set up during Christ time and the gates of hell won't prevail. It has not been destroyed nor shall it ever. And yes it will destroy all kingdoms of the world when Christ returns and consume them with fire.
This is your thread, go on. BTW, where is everybody? Did we run them off? Guess they don't like our subjects?
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
Yes, we do become subjects of Christ kingdom here and now in this life. But, we are still waiting to occupy the "promised land."
Let me show you now that another power comes on the scene after Babylon the Lion, after Persia the Bear, after Greece the Leopard, and after Rome the terrible beast. We are in Daniel, chapter 7.
Daniel has a dream which he writes out in chapter 7. He sees the four winds blowing upon the great sea causing turbulence. This picture represents strife and war among a see of faces. Each of these four beasts in his dream overthrow the preceding nations. This is a time of battle.
quote:1 ¶ In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. 2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
(Again, see waaay below)
DANIEL 7
COMMENTS
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.
1st is Babylon, the head of Gold, the Lion.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
2nd is Medo-Persia, the chest of silver, the Bear. The Medes (Darius) and Persians (Cyrus) conquered Babylon and co-ruled. Cyrus was stronger and so we believe the bear is raised up on one side to denote this fact.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
3rd is Greece, the belly of brass, the Leopard. The four wings are representative of the speed at which this "leopard" covered the earth. Alexander the Great, it could be said, barely touched the ground as he raced through the earth conquering kingdoms. He had conquered the world by the age of 33. When he died, his four generals fought but none were strong enough so the kingdom split into four regions. Thus, this beast is described as having four heads. That is its end.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
4th is Rome, the iron legs, the dreadful beast. Nothing could withstand Rome. Historians call her the Iron Monarchy of Rome. She crushed everything. At the end, like the Leopard, this kingdom is divided into ten powers. (Horns denote strength.) There were ten notable tribes which came out of the fall of the Empire. The ten main divisions of the Western Roman empire were Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Alamanni, Anglo-Saxons, Heruli, Lombards, and Burgundians. There are no crowns on these horns. Thus, no recognized kings, as I see it.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Now this little horn comes up AMONG the ten horns. Also, three of the first horns are plucked up by the roots. Pulling them up by the roots means nothing left to grow. These three tribes (horns) vanished from history after this time. Historian's write about Emperor Justinian's battles against three Arian nations which opposed the Catholic (Christian) faith. Justinian ruled the Eastern Empire, the Byzantine Empire from Constantinople. The Byzantine Empire was a continuation of the Roman Empire and lasted until 1453 when it fell to the Turks. The Western Empire ended in 476 when Odoacer defeated and killed Orestes and deposed Romulus Augustulus. After that time Rome was ravaged by the ten tribes, among others. Especially untiring were three Arian nations: the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths. History will tell of the uprooting of these three tribes.
Now, the thing that interests me is the little horn with eyes like a man and a mouth speaking great things. We know it comes up among the ten tribes of the fallen Western Empire. We know that it uproots three of these tribes before it is established. We can deduce from the language that the little horn follows the fall of the Roman Empire because it comes up among the ten horns, which we know now are ten tribes. There were more than ten tribes, in reality, but the number ten refers to many or it denotes ten noteworthy tribes.
Daniel continues to watch the vision unfold until the scene changes. The scene he now describes is a judgment, where books are opened.
quote:9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Does this mean that the little horn power will continue until judgment day? We will look at this in our next continuance. But first, any comments or questions?
posted
There are many figurative and symbolic elements in prophecy and we would be wise to use them literally unless it makes no sense to do so: such as a four headed leopard with wings. That being said, I do, however, believe that the 144,000 is a figurative number and not a literal number. I feel it is not literal because of the nature of that number. 144 = 12 X 12. 12 Tribes. 12 Apostles. There appears to be something special going on here. I believe we should focus on being a part of this number rather than trying to figure out whether it is literal or symbolic. Do you agree?
Next, we look at the interpretation of this little horn given by the angel to Daniel in the last part of chapter 7. Read ahead, please! Try to anticipate what I will present next. If you read it for yourself then the Holy Spirit will teach you. Hope this is interesting for you.
posted
First, here is a snippet from the Code of Justinian that I referred to in an earlier post.
Read this with this thought in the back of your mind. What if this were my countries government issuing this law. Then realize that if this is the 1st beast of Revelation 13, scripture goes on to say that the 2nd beast will make an image to the 1st and enact laws to force the world to worship the 1st beast and its image.
Also, remember, we are looking at whom it was that received power, a seat, and great authority from the dragon--the dragon being Satan and his agents, in this case, the Emporers of Rome--for they were the Satanic power that tried to kill baby Jesus.
Background: Rome had been the sole seat of authority and power of the Roman Empire until it was divided between Rome in the West and Constantinople in the East. The Emporers had tried to rule everything from the East but Rome in the West had come under attack by hordes of tribesmen. They sacked Rome, killed the Emporer, and looted it. The Empire was crumbling and could not afford to maintain its armies. The Empire grew weak while the church was growing in strength. Justinian helped setup the Bishop of Rome by providing armies to subdue, dismantle, and eliminate the warring tribes. So it was the Roman Empire which planted the seed of the Papacy by giving Rome to the Bishop of the Catholic Christian faith. Thus, Papal Rome received from Pagan Rome its power, seat, and authority. The seat was Rome, the power was its armies, the authority was... well, read the snippet below.
quote:The following is the text of the letter of the Emperor Justinian, Victorious, Pious, Happy, Renowned, Triumphant, always Augustus, to John, Patriarch, and most Holy Archbishop of the fair City of Rome:
With honor to the Apostolic See, and to Your Holiness, which is, and always has been remembered in Our prayers, both now and formerly, and honoring your happiness, as is proper in the case of one who is considered as a father, We hasten to bring to the knowledge of Your Holiness everything relating to the condition of the Church, as We have always had the greatest desire to preserve the unity of your Apostolic See, and the condition of the Holy Churches of God, as they exist at the present time, that they may remain without disturbance or opposition. Therefore, We have exerted Ourselves to unite all the priests of the East and subject them to the See of Your Holiness, and hence the questions which have at present arisen, although they are manifest and free from doubt, and, according to the doctrine of your Apostolic See, are constantly firmly observed and preached by all priests, We have still considered it necessary that they should be brought to the attention of Your Holiness. For we do not suffer anything which has reference to the state of the Church, even though what causes the difficulty may be clear and free from doubt, to be discussed without being brought to the notice of Your Holiness, because you are the head of all the Holy Churches, for We shall exert Ourselves in every way (as has already been stated), to increase the honor and authority of your See.
[See: Middle English, from Old French se, from Vulgar Latin *sedem, from Latin sēdēs, seat.]
Credits:
THE JUSTINIAN CODE FROM THE CORPUS JURIS CIVILIS
Translated from the original Latin, edited, and compared with all accessible systems of jurisprudence ancient and modern.
BY
By SAMUEL PARSONS SCOTT, A. M.
Author of "History of the Moorish Empire in Europe," Translator of the "Visigothic Code"
From The Seventeen Volume Set of the Entire Civil Law Codified By Justinian INCLUDING The Twelve Tables, The Institutes of Gaius, The Rules of Ulpian, The Opinions of Paulus, The Enactments of Justinian, and The Constitutions of Leo
PUBLISHED IN CINCINNATI BY
THE CENTRAL TRUST COMPANY Executor of the Estate Samuel P. Scott, Deceased
I remember several years ago reading about the plan to set up a group to monitor religion and work for the uniting of all religion. It was going to be called United Religions or UR. Thought it was interesting that it was UR . Abram came out of Ur. And we today are called to come out of such.
I was also concerned when reading about cell churches and how they are structured. I ran across a site that offered software to track each member of the cell group. It was scary what they were keeping track of. Beliefs, prayers, likes, dislikes, friends, relatives, and disputes within the group. All this stuff was collected and sent into the top layer of the group. It worked like a pyramid scheme and the top leaders could locate anyone in the group and have access to all sorts of information about the person. This is much like the state church in China which keeps tabs on everyone. I believe the uniting of religion and government in this nation is becoming the state's watchdog. The tax writeoffs have for years controlled what can and can't be said.
I agree that Rome has certainly played a big part in history as the beast.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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