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Some think so. And if so, does that mean that all in the institutional churches are destined to eternal loss? Am I to believe that every person in the traditional churches hasn't really received the Savior?
Strange, I know many who love the Kingdom and the King and are seeking to walk in obedience and holiness in the light that they have. Likewise, I have seen many in the house church circle - even among "leaders" - guilty of the unimaginable.
Christ is the head of the church. Christ is the unifying factor. However, most if not all IC’s have other heads, teach other gospels, etc. It is not the fact they meet in a church building that is the main problem. It is who their God is that is the trouble. This is why you might see the same problem in an HC, the place isn’t the problem.
Acts 20:29 (KJV) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Matthew 23:13 (KJV) But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
All in the IC are not lost but Christ is leading them out. How can true believers worship in a church with false gods, false gospels, etc.? When God’s spirit works in us, he teaches us the things of God. He shows us the error and leads us to question and reprove it. He also tells us not to fellowship with darkness.
Who is the god of the IC? Is it God? Or is it another god? I must ask how can a true church of the one true God have a spurious ( illegitimate or false though appearing outwardly similar) or specious (showy, deceptive attraction or allure, a false look of truth or genuineness) pastor? How could such a church disciple true disciples? If the leader is false, isn’t he going to lead the flock astray? , “neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.”
Scripture says we are not to bear false witness and we are to be truthful with our neighbors. We are to be honest. We are to love the truth and expose the lies. If the IC has a system of “special priests” who are really spurious and specious liars, not ordained by God, how can God’s people remain there? How can a group of lying priests protect the flock and lead them into truth?
Rev. 21:8 (KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
We must remember that the antichrist spirit was alive and working during the days of Christ and his disciples. There were many of them. There are also so many warnings of the false prophets, teachers, etc. who come into the churches and take over. This began immediately when the church was first established. Is it any wonder that this infiltration by the “ministers of light”, Satan’s ministers, has, for the most part, taken over the visible IC church? The IC church reminds me so much of the legalistic system of the Pharisees. The leaders have taken it up on them selves to make the laws, doctrines, etc. just as the Pharisees did. They dress nice, have fancy temples, fancy rituals, spurious laws, etc. These things have become their identity and their idols. Idolaters and liars will not inherit the kingdom! They mock and jeer at the truth. If Christ, himself, walked into most churches today, he would be rejected and run out of town.
All that says it is of God is not! America claims to be a Christian nation; but she lies. She is a nation of egocentric hedonists. Who does she serve? Take a look at the US dollar. It states “In God we trust”. Which God does America trust? Flip the dollar over and you will see. Who’s symbol do you see? Who’s new order of who’s new age is presented? This same antichrist spirit has infiltrated the churches, schools, business, etc. It is the system of the world. We are told to be separate from the world. We are not to have the same mind set as the world. Thus, how can we have unity with the world’s church system?
Rev. 18:2-3 (KJV) And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. [3] For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Many in times past believed that the RC was MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Now days it’s not polite to believe such for there is a big move to unify all religions. Many of the popular preachers of today admit they believe even those of other religions other than Christianity will be in heaven. To do such, they have denied Christ for he is the only way. These are the men that control the IC! Men who have denied Christ! These men won’t enter the kingdom and keep those who would from entering!!!!
Another popular belief of times past was that the harlots or daughters of Babylon were the protestant denominations. Those early reformers left the RC because of this or that error. However, their mistake was to take the truth they found and place it up as their god. So we had various denominations with their special priests and his special teaching ruling over their members. While they each had some bit of truth, they denied the rest of the truth. Remember satan’s ministers come as ministers of light, just not all light; but they mix the truth with their darkness so it will be more believable.
Today there are many IC’s that claim to be different and not apart of Protestantism. There are new movements with new teachings adding things to the scriptures. Thus, the daughters encompass many more organizations than ever before. IMO, all these false churches could be considered Babylon or part of the Babylon system. I see Babylon as any and all false churches. This could also include those religions who don’t profess to be Christian. I know you must be thinking, how can all these churches be wrong? How can so many people be fooled? Look at the OT example.
During the OT Israel became a great multitude of people, as the sand or as the stars. Yet, during Elijah’s time he thought he was the only faithful person left on the earth. God showed him there were 7,000 who had not bowed to Baal. Not many at all. Just so today the way is still very narrow and few find the way. We must not bow to Baal.
Romans 11:4 (KJV) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
1 Kings 19:18 (KJV) Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
As for those in the IC, not everyone that says Lord will enter the kingdom; but those who do the will of God. Thus, how many in the IC do the will of God compared to how many do the will of man, their preacher, their denomination, etc.?
Matthew 7:21 (KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
We should remember those who look good on the outside may have dirt on the inside.
Matthew 23:27 (KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
The IC churches are dying, the people are starving to death for lack of the word of God. The famine of the word has come in the public arena. They are taught they can’t feed themselves; that they must remain babes drinking milk when they should be teachers themselves.
Hebrews 5:12 (KJV) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Only the few who really know the Lord and obey him will come out of this false system.
Belief takes more than saying a sinners prayer in front of an altar. True belief means you truly know God and do what he teaches you. It is up to each man to prove if the teachers are telling the truth or not. Thus, we have no excuse.
Rev. 18:4 (KJV) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
I might add that just after my conversion, I thought I had to go to a church. That was a left over from my childhood church experience. So for a couple of years I visited churches. I learned a lot about the system and how much it was like the system in Christ day. I did not find Christ nor his love in any of the churches. Occasionally, there would be a person who seemed spirit filled; but I was just a babe so it was hard to tell. I often wondered if those really were God’s children, how did they continue to stay?
Had I died while attending one of these false institutions, I would still be raised to eternal life on judgment day for I was not believing their lies. I was searching for truth even though I didn’t always understand something. I was not satisfied just because the preacher said so. I wanted the truth and only accepted what I could understand of the word myself. Even still, I search for truth for I won’t have all truth until the Lord returns and changes me into incorruptible. Those who are dying in the pews are those who insist on being spoon fed by liars. Those who live and grow and leave the pew are those who are hungry for the Lord and insist on eating meat and holding the fork.
quote:Am I to believe that every person in the traditional churches hasn't really received the Savior?
No, but remember
2 Thes. 2:3 (KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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I would like to point out something we should not miss as we discuss this topic. The messages come in order. Understanding this order will help us answer the question which is the topic of this thread.
The first angel proclaims that the hour of God's judgment is come. This is a call to worship our Creator. Saying with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."
The second angel proclaims state of the back-slidden churches. "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."
The third angel proclaims the punishment owing to those who follow the false religious system. "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God."
The loud voice with which these messages are proclaimed represents a message which is given to the world. Many voices join together to give a unified message and it resounds loudly. But the message to "come out" is given "mightily with a strong voice." This message is a repeat of the message of the 2nd angel in Revelation 14. But now is mentioned the added corruption which has taken up habitation in instititions which constitute Babylon. Saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird."
Observation: Early in the Reformation the people had a great light to follow out of the institution then referred to as Babylon--and they came out. Their vision and path to Christ had been obscurred by the priests who stand between the sinner and the Savior. But then they saw the evil institution in its true darkness and the light of Jesus was very bright in contrast. They marched out by the thousands into the freedom found only in Christ. But time has taken its toll on them and the children have forgotten the past experiences of their parents. They have forgotten why they separated in the first place. They have lost sight of the light in Jesus, the Truth. They did not keep pace and as the light of the truth in Jesus grew dim they lost their way and have become turned around and are now marching back to the Mother church. When they join Her they will legitimately become Her daughters. Pledging their allegience and loyalty to Her and the man who "sees" for Her they will play the part of the harlot and drink of the wine of this Mother church (her doctrines).
The Lutheran's and Anglican's have already established documented understandings with the Mother church. In fact, and this is sad, the Lutheran's think they agree with the Mother church in matters of justification by faith. Remarkable, the very reason Luther left the church has become the ties to bind them, who profess to follow his teachings, back to this same church. Tell me they have not done a 180!
If we are saying that the IC has become Babylon, then when did the judgment hour of God start as proclaimed by the earlier angel? Many credit a Baptist preacher by the name of William Miller with giving this judgment hour message in 1844. Did people listen! You bet! It was in all the period papers and around the world.
In countries where preacher were forbidden to give the message, children as young as 5 years old were proclaiming it. As a matter of fact, Miller began preaching in 1831 and in 1833 the Leonid meteor shower was spectacular. Newspapers record the event as if Niagra falls were pouring from the sky. They wrote that you could read the newspaper at midnight by the light produced by the shower. Not long before that the sun became dark at noon so that you could not see your hand in front of your face. Did the people listen? You bet they did! The signs in the sun, moon, and stars were given by God to bring conviction to every heart.
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1 Peter 4:17 (KJV) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
John 12:31 (KJV) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
The scriptures point out that judgment began during the time of the early church in the time of Christ and the disciples. He set up the kingdom and judgment began. Rev. is speaking of the final judgment when punishment is handed out. It occurs quickly, refered to as an hour.
Note that now (during the begining of the church) is the time satan is cast out. This is the same time as he is cast down and bound. It occured at Christ's crucifiction. Satan was defeated and made a prisoner of war with boundaries until the final judgment. He will be loosed for a short time before his sentance is given.
Jeff, could you put aside your prophet's commentaries and listen to the scriptures on their own? There is no mention of 1844 in scripture. Remember no one knows the hour of Christ's return and final judgment!
In summary, William Miller calculated correctly that the 2300 days would end in 1844 and "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Where he erred was in believing that the earth was the sanctuary that was to be cleansed. He reasoned that surely the cleansing of the earth was its purification by fire. Today, however, we know that the earth is not the sanctuary. Hebrews tells us that Jesus ascending into heaven into the heaven sactuary not built with hands and there performs the work of our High Priest offering his own blood for the expiation of our sins. So the judgment hour began in 1844. Why does it tarry? Peter says that the Lord is not slack as men count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us not wanting any one to perish. The mercy of God waits until every mind has made the decision to serve God or reject him.
The important point I want to stress is that the messages of Revelation 14 were preached in the 1800's and have been proclaimed since that time. It is not unreasonable that Faith should repeat this message in our day. The condition of the churches has not improved but has steadily, and perhaps rapidly, declined. But I would like to comment that the condition of the church then and now is much more than simply a man lording over the body in the place of Christ. The whole system has become corrupt because of the doctrines. The beliefs we hold to shape our lives. If we hold onto false teachings then these can have an impact on how we interpret other scripture and effect our relationship with Jesus.
The first false teacher was the serpent in the garden of Eden. The words that came from his mouth were carefully calculated to have an impact on the relationship between God and man and it proved successful. By accusing God of being dishonest with the couple they were led to disobey Jesus who had given them everything needful for their happiness and to follow a liar whose plan was to take everything from them and send them to hell. With the words, "Hath God said..." he caused Eve to give more credulity to himself than to her Creator. Today, the churches teach this lie as if it were truth and we accept the words of the serpant that we "shall NOT surely die" rather than the word of God that we "shall surely die." And so was developed the idea that man's soul is immortal and cannot die. This flies in the face of Jesus who said, "Fear not man who can kill the body but not the soul. But rather fear Him who can DESTROY BOTH BODY and SOUL in hell." And again, "All souls are mine... The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
Do you think Jesus is happy when we make him a liar? We do make him a liar when we don't believe his word. Just as John explained, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." God has said that "all have sinned." If we say we have not sinned then we are calling God a liar. So too, when Jesus says that the soul shall die and we say, "the soul is immortal," then we are calling Jesus a liar. Explain to me how we can believe that the soul is immortal when God has stated otherwise? Scripture plainly states that God alone hath immortality.
If I preach that the soul dies and I agree with Jesus, then I am not calling Jesus a liar but I am calling the churches who teach the opposite a liar. I am proclaiming the foulness of her doctrines and their opposition to Christ. Everyone who believes will hear this message as "Come out of her." Don't stand with her when God judges her. Remember Dathan and Abiram? Those who stood with them were destroyed with them. This is the Elijah message, "If the Lord be God then serve him." We are the servants of whom we obey. Obey the Lord!
Can someone please answer me how we can call God a liar by not believing him when he says that he can destroy both body and soul in hell? Do we defiantly hold to our belief that the soul is immortal and cannot die? If we do we call Jesus a liar just as suredly as if we had said that we have not sinned.
So it is the doctrines taught which make the church part of Babylon or not. Many in these churches will come out of this false system of worship. Even pastors are seeing the truth and changing their minds. But, the message of the fall of Babylon must be given correctly.
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Hi Jeff, I thought Ellen G White and/or William Miller prophesied that Jesus would come back physically on earth in 1844. When it didn't happen, William Miller "revised" the prophecy that Jesus entered the sanctuary in Heaven and initialized the final judgment in 1844. Your friend Doug Batchelor preached the same last Wednesday on TV here in Canada. Correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks
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Jeff, are you saying the heavens is the santuary that was cleanzed after 2300 days? Why did heaven need cleansing? Do you mean Christ went to a dirty heavenly santurary and finally cleaned it up by 1844?
quote:The important point I want to stress is that the messages of Revelation 14 were preached in the 1800's and have been proclaimed since that time.
Rev. 14 was preached in the early church too. Why did Christ give the revelation to John? To preach it to the churches---to warn them. Remember the letters to the 7 churches. They were already falling away into false doctrines. Christ warned them to return to their first love, to repent of their idolatries, etc. and to come out of Babylon. He said those who would enter the kingdom would be those who overcame. Thus, this message is not a message that began in 1844 in began with the disciples, particularly John.
Even if the message had only begun to be preached in 1844, how would that make 1844 the start of judgment? NT scripture plainly shows it began in the disciples lifetime. Just as the phrase now is the day of salvation refers to the present time but also all the time past beginning with the first time it was said in NT times; the phrase "Now is the judgment of the world.."includes the present but also the past begining in NT times not in 1844.
I agree with you on the condition of the churches. I also agree that man does not have an immortal soul; but receives immortality or eternal life if he is a believer in Christ. John 3:16 doesn't say the wicked live eternally in hell but they perish and believers receive the gift of eternal life. Eternal life is a gift!
Oh, there is so much error taught in the churches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS Yes, Chubbena, I think I remember something like that. They predicted Christ return in 1844 and when the prophesy failed they changed it. What does scripture say about prophets and prophetesses whose prophesies fail? They are false! Don't remember God giving any second chances to get the prophesy right.
Let me put my hat in the ring and answer the question posed by the topic title. Is the IC the same as Babylon? My answer: While some certainly qualify, not all of them do. There are some very good churches and people scattered around who are still on fire for the Lord and desire to know the truth. So, we cannot generalize and answer this question Yes.
In response to Faith's post. I don't believe that Jesus will ever call his church Babylon. Else, he denies his authority and power to lead a people in the right way. So to speak of the early churches as Babylon is an error. The early Reformation churches were also led by God and, though they were not as pure as we think they should have been, they were certainly living up to all the light they knew and God was certainly pleased with them. So it would be an error to call them Babylon as well. However, the Reformation churches did not hesitate to point to the RCC and call it Babylon.
But later on some of these religious bodies refused to step forward and follow the light. They were afraid to step outside their creeds and lose their inique identity. So they became luke-warm and their light has been dimming gradually. And, as we know, if you reject the light you get darkness. So, because they did not continue in their first love, a love for the truth, God has given them what they desire and they will believe a lie.
So then I disagree with Faith's assessment as to when the churches become Babylon. And, thus, no need for the Babylon message to be given earlier.
Similarly, I disagree with her assessment as to when the Judgment begins since we know that the word of God will judge us in the last day. That is certainly at odds with it beginning in Jesus' time. Remember that Jesus said he did not come to judge the world but to save it. He said that the words that he had spoken would judge the world in the last day.
See John 12:47,48
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Now, I am not trying to cause division between Faith and myself, nor am I asking anyone to choose sides. What I do desire is that we set aside our differences and prayfully study these issues looking at a broader scope of scripture to see if we can find unity. It is my belief that so often we find a comfortable faith and settle into it. If someone then presents a scripture that offer further insight we tend to shun it as false rather than trying to understand how it may open our understanding even more.
(I don't want to spend a lot of time on subjects that stray from the topic of this thread but will take just a moment to answer briefly two questions from Faith and Chubbena. If you want an answer in greater detail then we can start another topic.
There is plenty of information still available on the lectures presented by William Miller if anyone desired to read it. He did believe that Jesus would physically return to this world in 1844 to "cleanse the temple."
To answer Faith's question about the heavenly sanctuary being dirty. In the Jewish economy the sins were transferred to the Most Holy place which was cleansed once a year during Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. That being the typical system, the anti-typical system places confessed sins in the heavenly sanctuary to be cleansed only by the blood of Jesus. No amount of animal sacrifice would be sufficient to wipe away our sins. Conversly, no amount of sin is so great as to dry-up the grace of God provided by the blood of Jesus.
Faith, you can read about this heavenly sanctuary in Hebrews 8-10. Also, there is much mention of the articles of the sanctuary in the book of Revelation. I would also suggest that if you wish to understand it more completely you contact a Jewish temple and arrange to attend Yom Kipper. Remember, this was God's lesson book for them. It can also help us understand the plan of salvation.
Ps 73:12-17, "12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches... When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me; Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
Ps 77:13, "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?")
quote:Strange, I know many who love the Kingdom and the King and are seeking to walk in obedience and holiness in the light that they have.
I'm not sure I fully understand your point here. Do you mean some Christians have lesser light or a different light?
Hi C,
I was thinking about those who have never heard anything but "institutionalism" or "clergy/laityism." With respect to these things many real saints, imo, are in darkness.
As for "light" I use it to describe opportunity and privledge. Jesus spoke of those to whom much was given and much required. He spoke of certain cities which would have repented if they had seen the things which other cities had seen, namely, his works.
For example, I believe that remote people in far away places who have not the Gospel have less light than us in the USA. I write that because the scriptures themselves bring light. A favorite text of mine is Psa. 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light.
If I used this figure of speech in an improper way, I regret it.
Anyway, back to the question of this topic... and before I further examine the Scriptures on this matter please cite writers who regard a segment of the church today as the Babylon of Revelation. Some will, no doubt, desire to do outside reading.
Also, I am going to start a -separate- thread in a day or two where the system of Ellen G. White can be considered. Some new "light" about her has begun to surface.
May the grace of our Lord Jesus abide with you, David Anderson
Seems you missed my point. I did not call God's church Babylon. However, early on there were wolves coming in. Thus, even the early 7 churches in Rev. were warned to repent and not follow Babylon.
Nor did I say all people in all IC's are lost. Are all IC organizations lost? Well, what you consider an IC may vary. Sure there are small scattered churches who are God's. Who's to say they are IC or HC that was to big for a house. Place isn't important.
As to the reformers, sure they started with the right motive. Don't believe I stated everyone of them was lost. As a whole, the reformers took what light they had and made it their god. Thus, being no better than the system they left. Didn't Luther come out of RC to turn around an kill those who differed from him, like the Antibabtists?
Hey Faith, glad you cleared me up on that misunderstanding. So how do you answer the question posed by the topic title? Are you ready to make a statement yet or still weighing the evidence?
Hey David, do we need to define institutional church since someone has suggested there is a difference between it and a large home church that merely meets in a building?
The American Heritage Dictonary defines insitution as: "An established organization or foundation, especially one dedicated to education, public service, or culture." There certainly doesn't seem to be anything negative about being an institution. The church is definetly established and organized to be of public service.
Rather than Babylon, as used in Revelation, referrng to an organized church, I think what Babylon refers to in Revelation is a system that worships gods other than the one, true God. This false system of worship has adopted many things from the true form of worship except for anything which places our Creator above man. Thus, many of the teachings are similar and align closely with and borrow some facts from truth. But it will be seen in the end to be a system of works where man is dependent upon his own will to improve himself and make the world a better place rather than denying self and admitting to a total reliance upon God. This last act would be too humiliating for false religion.
So in my mind, a person is part of Babylon if they do not worship God in truth and admit to a total reliance upon Him. It doesn't matter where they worship, or in what surroundings they find themselves, or which group they are associated with, or on whose books they place their name. Be it organized, institutionalized, reformed, apostalic, home church, or the closet--Babylon can be any where, any time.
Merely praying to God does not insure we are praying to Jesus. I once knew a lady who was dating a married man. She prayed to her god that he would break up this man's marriage so she could marry him. This is an extreme example, but true. When it happened, she felt God had answered her prayer. Who do you think answered her prayer? Oh, she was sincere in believing this was God's will, but we know better because we understand God's will from scripture. Her life was out of harmony with God and her desires were to fulfill her own lusts. When she prayed, Satan heard her prayers and answered them.
My point is that I believe the only way we can know "Babylon" is to know the truth as it is in scripture. Babylon is "the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." Do we know of any churches that fit this description today? Then we owe it to those in that church to warn them to come out before the judgments of God fall on them.
Personally, I think the message to come out needs to be given now. But I don't think that Babylon has fully developed to the point where most people will recognize the signs. Thus, it will be difficult at this period in time to convince many to come out. When the church finally enters the policital arena in sufficient numbers and in high places then she will have power to speak as a dragon and make laws to enforce her doctrines. Then she will be able to impose fines upon heretics and cause as many as will not worship the false religious system she establishes to be killed.
When these things are stirred up and seem inevitable and the people see economic sanctions in place against those who will not conform to the state religion, then the angel that cries mightly with a loud voice will be heard proclaiming the message to "come out of her my people." Then will they flee by the thousands to take their stand solidly for Biblical truth and be bold to worship their Creator, Jesus Christ. Then will Babylon and her daughters be made manifest to all. But right now, what is our position? What is our message?
There seems to be some agitation in America at this time regarding religious freedom/tolerance. We have the issue of school prayer. The public display of the Ten Commandments. The ACLU. The Bible vs the theory of evolution in the classrooms. Even the original intent of the framers of the constitution is under scrutiny with regard to the separation of church and state. So the topic is being agitated. How long until America has a state religion? When that begins to take shape then we will clearly see the formation of the image to the beast and Babylon will definetly be easier to spot--for those who are wise to her cunning deceit, that is.
Da 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
We should never think God will not send a message to warn us. "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." And, again, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." He won't leave us stupid, will he? "Where there is no vision, the people perish."
There is hope! "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."
quote: So how do you answer the question posed by the topic title? Are you ready to make a statement yet or still weighing the evidence?
Seems you missed my point entirely.
Question: Is the IC the same as Babylon? YES! Are all the people in the IC Babylon? No! They are in it. I shall quote myself in my first reply to this thread to show you my train of thought; since you thought I did not answer the question and was off topic.
quote: most if not all IC’s have other heads, teach other gospels, etc.
I think I should change that to all, not most. for the IC is a system organized to have one preacher in a pulpit over the congregation. At least I have not seen any other type of IC system.
David pointed out on the other thread that this clergy/laity system is not biblical but is spurious or specious. To that comment I have replyed:
quote: Who is the god of the IC? Is it God? Or is it another god? I must ask how can a true church of the one true God have a spurious ( illegitimate or false though appearing outwardly similar) or specious (showy, deceptive attraction or allure, a false look of truth or genuineness) pastor? How could such a church disciple true disciples? If the leader is false, isn’t he going to lead the flock astray? , “neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.”
It seems that you missed my answer. The IC is Babylon because it is false. There are two churches on this earth. God’s church and Satan’s church.
God’s church is made up of believers, overcomers, those who have the testimony of Jesus and do his commands. The people in God’s church seek truth. They love truth. They are filled with the holy spirit and worship in spirit and truth. They walk in the spirit. This church is referred to as the city of God, the bride of Christ, the new Jerusalem.
Satan’s church is made up of those who reject Christ, who love darkness, who rebel against Christ. Their leader is Satan the father of lies. Is it any wonder that they lie? They are wolves, snakes, hypocrites, blind leaders of blind, those of a reprobate mind, apostate, fallen away, workers of iniquity, etc. They are the ones who refuse to know God. They are given a great delusion for they loved not the truth. It is referred to as a harlot, a mystery religion, and a city called Babylon.
As such we should remember there are only two types of people in the world: sheep or goats; believers or unbelievers; those who love God or those who hate God; righteous or unrighteous; wheat or tares.
Now in regards to the question is the IC Babylon? Is a church based on a false system (clergy/laity) controlled by this false system of false preachers, lying, leading people who would know God into deception, a church of God or a church of the biggest liar, Satan? I believe it is a church of Satan, thus a part of Babylon the false system and church of the world, whose God is Satan.
Christ said the Pharisees, who were leading people astray, were of their father, Satan. These were the very teachers who taught Jesus as a child every Sabbath day in God’s temple. Can you see the similarity to those who teach in God’s temple today? Remember, today the temple is the people. The people being deceived in Babylon are God’s or he wouldn’t call them out! This is so similar to the OT Israelites who were considered God’s people; but he continually had to call them out of paganism and they were considered an unfaithful wife rather than a bride because of their refusal to come out. Just so the unfaithful will be considered the harlot unless they repent and become the faithful.
quote: In response to Faith's post. I don't believe that Jesus will ever call his church Babylon. Else, he denies his authority and power to lead a people in the right way. So to speak of the early churches as Babylon is an error.
The best I can figure, this is what you were responding to:
quote:Rev. 14 was preached in the early church too. Why did Christ give the revelation to John? To preach it to the churches---to warn them. Remember the letters to the 7 churches. They were already falling away into false doctrines. Christ warned them to return to their first love, to repent of their idolatries, etc. and to come out of Babylon. He said those who would enter the kingdom would be those who overcame. Thus, this message is not a message that began in 1844 in began with the disciples, particularly John.
I did not say the early church was Babylon; but rather that “they were already falling away into false doctrines. Christ warned them to…….come out of Babylon.”
Being in Babylon and being Babylon are two different things. I believe this is why you misunderstand me. Christians can be in Babylon but not be Babylon. That is the reason for the call to come out!!!!!!!!!!!! The longer one stays in such a false habitat the more deception one will begin to believe. Those who love Christ today must come out of spiritual Sodom—the Babylonian church system; just as Christians are called to come out of the world systems. We walk in a different spirit. We serve a different God than the world and it’s religious system. The IC is the world’s religious system with doctrines and traditions of men.
quote: The early Reformation churches were also led by God and, though they were not as pure as we think they should have been, they were certainly living up to all the light they knew and God was certainly pleased with them. So it would be an error to call them Babylon as well.
Here you are mixing up being Babylon with being in Babylon again. Of course some of the people who left the RC were seeking truth and worshiping Christ. None of us today has all truth, so we can’t hold the fact that they didn’t have it all against them.
However, it was short lived. They soon began killing one another because of the divisions in beliefs. This is not Christ-like behavior. They certainly weren’t obeying the commandment, Thou shalt not kill. They were not showing Christ-like fruit. They were still in a false system of clergy/laiety and they still put the clergy and his doctrines over God. Once they had the word of God in print to read for themselves, they certainly had no excuse. However, the scriptures state they have no excuse any way for God makes himself known to all.
Romans 1:20 (KJV) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
quote: So then I disagree with Faith's assessment as to when the churches become Babylon. And, thus, no need for the Babylon message to be given earlier.
**I am posting another study on the 7 churches which would address the early churches in John’s day and the warnings of Christ for them to repent of their idolatries and false doctrines that were creeping in during the beginning of the church. Study maybe found here: Basic Matters » Revelation » 7 churches
Actually the churches of God do not become Babylon. The Babylon mystery religion was in existence long before Christ was born. In fact, it goes back to the time of Nimrod and the tower of Babel according to the scriptures and many authors agree. Or we could actually say the roots of this false religion started in the garden of Eden as Adam and Eve believed Satan’s lie over God’s truth.
Babylon infiltrates the church during the first century; just as it had influenced OT Israel all those years in and out of captivity. Just as the religion of the Pharasee was based on false doctrines of men.
Luke 11:52 (KJV) Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Those of Satan’s church known as Babylon infiltrate and prevent God’s people from entering the kingdom.
Matthew 23:27 (KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Notice how the Pharisees say they are Abraham’s seed and thus God’s people. However Christ answers them that whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. He goes on to tell them that they are children of the devil, thus of the devil’s church. He tells them they do not hear God or do God’s word because they are not of God. Do we have such religions today? Isn’t the IC such an organization? Do they not seem good and religious but ignore God’s ways for the commands and traditions of men just as the Pharisees?
John 8:33-47 (KJV) They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? [34] Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. [35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. [36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. [37] I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. [38] I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. [39] They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. [40] But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. [41] Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. [42] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. [43] Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. [44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. [45] And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. [46] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? [47] He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Why are these blind, deceived and unable to hear God? Was it because they did not love the truth, did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness? Could this be why those who can’t see to come out don’t. They take pleasure in the things they do. They take pride in all the customs and doctrines of men.
2 Thes. 2:10-12 (KJV) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Tim. 3:13 (KJV) But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
In Titus we see many were deceivers especially of the circumcision. They are warned not to give heed to Jewish fables. If you study into the subject deep enough, you will see that Jewish mysticism has a big part in the Babylonian mystery religion and has infected much of so called Christianity. Dispensationalism is one such doctrine.
Titus 1:10-14 (KJV) For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: [11] Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. [12] One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. [13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
In 2 John we see there are already many deceivers of the antichrist spirit. Don’t these deceivers belong to Satan’s church called Babylon?
2 John 1:7 (KJV) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
The man named Simon was an example of these false charlatans who said he believed; but his motives were impure. He thought God’s power could be bought and sold.
Acts 8:18-19 (KJV) And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, [19] Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Babylon begins paganizing Christianity. During the rule of Constantine, the paganizing becomes the major force creating and legalizing what is called the Christian church; but is actually the Babylon system hiding behind the name of Christ.
Matthew 7:15 (KJV) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 10:16 (KJV) Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Luke 10:3 (KJV) Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
Acts 20:29 (KJV) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
If one looks into the origins of pagan Babylonian religion, one will see many doctrines and traditions of the IC today come from this false religion of Satan. Thus, can we honor God by these things? Look to the story of the golden calf.
Exodus 32:3-5 (KJV) And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron. [4] And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. [5] And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord.
Exodus 32:7-8 (KJV) And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: [8] They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
The people had the best of intentions as they melted their gold and formed a molten calf. They were going to have a feast to the Lord. However, God was not pleased as they were using pagan idols which became their gods. Just so today the IC has many pagan idols and idols of their own making which have become their gods. BTW, an idol doesn’t have to be a thing; but can be a person, belief, custom, etc.
The gospel has gone out in different forms since the beginning. There has always been a church of God made up of believers. These believers are the spiritual Israel and the spiritual Jerusalem.
The lie of Satan the deceiver has gone out since the beginning. There has always been a church of Satan. It encompasses all those who reject God. They are called Babylon.
This spiritual battle between God’s Jerusalem and Satan’s Babylon was won at the cross. The Lord is longsuffering that the very last person who will, shall come out of Babylon and into Jerusalem.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
http://www13.brinkster.com/exposed/index.htm Here is the testimony of one who has come out of Protestantism. Anyone who’s come out of the IC or is thinking about it should read this site.
The following links should be read with discernment. Some of them are old links I’ve read before, others I just skimmed recently. I don’t necessarily agree with all each author says particular when it comes to their specific doctrinal beliefs. These are given for research into the Babylonian mystery only. It reaches many various groups and facets of life as you will see.
D asked for sites calling the IC Babylon. These show it’s involvement in the world’s harlot church via the ecumenical movement for unity. For more details hunt for various discernment ministries on MSN explorer or other good search engine. Google doesn’t work on this subject very well.
Too Long in the Sun by Reeves http://web.infoave.net/~toolong/ Book explaining the roots of the Babylonian mystery religion, site has short articles from the book.
Babylon Mystery Religion lists various articles and books on line “The Two Babylons by A. Hissop is online here. http://www.giveshare.org/babylon/
William Schnoebeien books: “Wicca” and “Blood on the Doorposts” give the similarities between witchcraft, masonry and RC priesthood. Were available from chick.com in past.
Cathy Burns has several good books on masonry, new age, etc. Do search at amazon.com to bring up several titles.
Regarding those well know and well liked preachers being exposed today remember about their popularity: Luke 6:26 (KJV) Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
Type in “discernment” in a good search engine for links to ministries exposing many joining in the world Babylon religion. Don’t use google, all stuff has been made pc. Some things to look for: Charismatic elements, promise keepers, joel’s army, dominion theology, doctrine of demons, ecumenical movements, Gnostic, goddess worship, new age, false Christs, etc.
Type in Babylon mystery religion for an endless list of articles of various viewpoints.
There are many more links via the various discernment ministries and search engines on Babylon mystery religion. This is just a drop in the bucket; but I think you’ll get the idea. Use discernment for even though many are exposing things about Babylon, remember even satan tells the truth sometimes. Many have the history correct or similar but often have various understandings of what it all means.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
To point to the worldwide Ecumenical Movement, the Vatican, or Free-Masonary as signs of Babylon is not the same as declaring the institutional church, itself, to be Babylon. I spent more than two hours looking through these links and I do not believe that was the intended message in the majority of the articles.
Furthermore, most of these sites are sponsored by those who have no problems whatsoever with clergy/laityism and one-man pastorism, which according to a post written above, is a sure sign of Babylon. Check out the writers, for instance, which Jack Chick publishes. http://www.chick.com/information/authors/
Therefore, many - if not most - of these writers are also... Babylon.
Some - not all - of these articles looked unsubstantiated and carelessly written, to me. Hmmm... that's what they say about the stuff I write. Few even referred to the list of the clear attributes and activities of the Babylon which John warned of - the things "soon to come to pass." One article indentified the mark of the beast as the WWW as in World Wide Web. Another had this: "Sickness and disease, the evidence of sin, is common place among Christians." But Jesus directly refuted such a claim. John 9:2-3.
Anyhow, it has been shown by the replies in this thread that there are indeed persons on this list who believe that the Babylon of Revelation is the institutional church of today. Thus, the question of this topic has been answered. Asap, I'll begin another topic on Babylon in the prophetic section of this forum. There it can be explored on a fresh page. Do add your final thoughts concerning this precise question and then this thead will be locked due to it's large size.
quote:Therefore, many - if not most - of these writers are also... Babylon.[/quotjej]
[quote]Some - not all - of these articles looked unsubstantiated and carelessly written, to me.
Faith warned on link post:
quote:The following links should be read with discernment. Some of them are old links I’ve read before, others I just skimmed recently. I don’t necessarily agree with all each author says particular when it comes to their specific doctrinal beliefs. These are given for research into the Babylonian mystery only. It reaches many various groups and facets of life as you will see.
quote: Use discernment for even though many are exposing things about Babylon, remember even satan tells the truth sometimes. Many have the history correct or similar but often have various understandings of what it all means.
Yes most of them are inBabylon; thus, showing the extent of Babylon’s reach. Thought I explained in my post that the links were given for research and that I do not agree doctrinally or other wise with all things said by all authors. The links I gave showing that others consider today’s churches Babylon were new links that I found and only skimmed as I could see they were from various belief systems. The criteria for those to be listed was that; they say something about today’s churches being Babylon. Someone didn’t ask that I only post writings from those who had come out of Babylon.
I had read several articles in the past from the SDA site I mentioned about the sun worship in RC . I thought they presented it very well with good visuals, etc. However, just because they exposed sun worship does not mean that the organization of SDA is not part of Babylon. You may ask why expose sun worship in the RC on this thread? Well, much of this same sun worship is in today’s IC’s. The system is the same with subtle variations. Please remember we are talking about institutions of men when speaking of IC’s not every single person still in the IC.
To say that because one IC calls another IC Babylon means the IC can’t be Babylon is a false assumption. We must remember that Satan’s church is false no matter how much truth it has. It is divided.
The main issue is Babylon , the false church of Satan. Babylon is made up of many different organizations that do things differently. This includes denominations, false religions like masonry, new age and witchcraft. Is not the ecumenical movement made up of IC’s? Aren’t they the churches of today? Even those IC’s who are not part of the ecumenical movement operate under a false system, don’t they? There are fewer and fewer who are not apart of the EM. I have seen lists before and all denominations are listed as well as many never heard of groups.
However, some of those people may be coming out of Babylon as they see wrong things in the IC system. IC is basically an organized system dedicated to educate the public. I ask just what are they trying to educate the public to know or to do? Unity is the main cry of the IC regardless. Even in HC the cry is unity. Unity with everyone of different beliefs, unity with the IC, etc. Outcome based religion is the desired effect.
Christ said he came to divide and put even families at odds with one another. How can those who come out of a false system be unified with those who insist on remaining in a false system? How can anyone who says they are Christian unify with masonry, witchcraft, etc? BTW, any where there is an IC, you will find infiltrators from masonry or new age, etc. They are trained to go in and work for world unity through religions unity. Thus, there is no safe IC, the wolves are there.
From the time of the reformation to the present we have had denominations, organizations, etc. that fought among themselves. Luther called Rome Babylon. He came out or did he? He seemed to think the Antibaptist were also of Babylon because they didn’t agree with him. So he acted as Babylon himself by killing Antibaptists. Because he was right about Rome, does that make him right about his own organization? Or wasn’t he also in Babylon?
Coming out of Babylon is not as simple as leaving the IC. I knew I shouldn’t have posted links, for you have ignored my explanation of being Babylon versus in Babylon. Nor have you addressed the scriptures pointing to the warnings and cries for the church to come out of these things even in the first century.
Babylon is a system with many doctrines and traditions. Many are in Babylon even in HC. Just because they leave the false system of clergy/laity doesn’t mean that they are not doing something else that keeps them in Babylon. However, all IC organizations would be considered Babylon because they are based on a false system! Please tell me before you close the thread , How can a false system with specious and spurious preachers not be of Babylon?
You’ve heard the old saying all roads lead to Rome. Well as far as false religion, all roads lead to Babylon. It is not a new system that will suddenly come into being just before Christ returns; but has been around as long as there has been religion. Today the ecumenical movement is leading all these roads to gather to form that final one world group who will wage war against Christ and his saints for the final show down. Thank goodness we know who wins.
quote: To point to the worldwide Ecumenical Movement, the Vatican, or Free-Masonry as signs of Babylon is not the same as declaring the institutional church, itself, to be Babylon.
Do you know of an IC which is not infiltrated by the above? All false systems are Babylon. All these false systems are tied together. The IC is similar to government in that it is so full of bureaucracy via men’s doctrines and traditions all intertwined. The difference between Babylon and God’s church is that Babylon is organized by man. God’s church is headed by Christ himself; no bureaucracy needed.
I would suggest that everyone take a special look at Protestantism Exposed http://www.brinkster.com/exposed/indes.htm written by one who has come out. I think that you should also consider reading To Long In The Sun by Reeves http://web.infoave.net/~toolong/ to see how much of ancient Babylon is in the church systems of today and search you hearts to see if these traditions are really needed or have they become gods and idols to the churches?
BTW, since the links page is too confusing for most, (Babylon is confusion.) I will be glad to delete or shorten to only books explaining the history of this mystery religion from ancient Babylon to today.
My simplified conclusion is the IC is Babylon along with all other false religious systems of men.
quote: there are indeed persons on this list who believe that the Babylon of Revelation is the institutional church of today. Thus, the question of this topic has been answered.
Gee, I’ve only seen one on this list, me, who believes that. Surely, the answer doesn’t depend on only my view.
Please D, don’t forget to answer my question:
Please tell me before you close the thread , How can a false system with specious and spurious preachers not be of Babylon?
OK. Jeff, you’re up for your final say.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
I will, in this one area only, stand with Faith. And that one area is to examine one's own belief system to determine to what extent we have adopted the philosophies and beliefs of Babylon. Most of us have come out of IC's that at least some of us think are part of Babylon. What have we retained from our time inside?
posted
While many have said that knowledge cannot save, yet what we believe does shape our lives and effect our relationship with God and our fellow man. The false teachings of Babylon are calculated to lead us down the wrong path. They are easier to hear than the truth, but of no eternal value.
When Jesus described eternal life he did not measure it in terms of time. But what did he say? "This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ," whom God sent to give a better revelation of Himself.
Jesus said, "I am the Truth." From this we can reason that knowing truth is knowing God. But even more than just knowing--doing. "The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." There's a whole sermon here tied to Matthew 7:23 which says, "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'"
Apparently, we become acquainted with Christ, and therefore God the Father, by participating in the life of Jesus. Not merely professing or teaching, but actually taking up our cross and following in his footsteps.
quote: My simplified conclusion is the IC is Babylon along with all other false religious systems of men.
But your simplified conclusion about the present lamentable state of Church affairs is NOT the issue here, Faith. The issue is what/where did JOHN, the Apostle, mean when HE warned his 60 something A.D. readership of an impending disaster in the context of a City about to go down. The IC of today cannot possibly fit his detailed accounts of that Babylon. Btw, there was a city which did fit his descriptions and predictions, as a hand in a glove. It also perfectly corresponded with the predictions of Jesus concerning that same city.
And yes, there are always similarities in the methods of those who oppose God in John's time and in the world 2000 years later. Yes, the spirit of Babylon, one could say, still lives on but the apostle wasn't writing about the spirit of Babylon but about Babylon, herself.
quote: there are indeed persons on this list who believe that the Babylon of Revelation is the institutional church of today. Thus, the question of this topic has been answered.
quote:Gee, I’ve only seen one on this list, me, who believes that. Surely, the answer doesn’t depend on only my view.
Babylon as the IC is not an uncommon theme among HC folk, I'm sure. Just like those in every preceding generation these like to label their opponents as big, bad, Babylon.
quote:Please D, don’t forget to answer my question:
Please tell me before you close the thread, How can a false system with specious and spurious preachers not be of Babylon?
Oh, now they are "of Babylon" rather than Babylon, herself... Which is it? Let's just pick it up later, F. I have several questions, myself.
posted
D, The reason I said "of" is because they are Babylon; but only part "of" it. Babylon is compromised "of" other religions that would not be counted as ICs. All false religion is portrayed by Babylon. I just love it when someone answers a question with a question.
Yes, I know there was a real city. Just as there was and is a real city of Jerusalem. Jerusalem in Revelations portrays the one true church. The Babylonian whore portrays the false church which is made up "of" many divisions including the IC.
BTW, when Christ fortold the destruction of earthly Jerusalem in 70 AD, didn't that also finish the picture of the destruction of the old temple worship? So the destruction of a pagan city could represent the destruction of paganism or false worship. Rev. is very symbolic and very little can be taken completely literally.
Yes, Jeff, it is important for each of us who love Christ to examine what we may be clinging to from Babylon.
quote:And that one area is to examine one's own belief system to determine to what extent we have adopted the philosophies and beliefs of Babylon. Most of us have come out of IC's that at least some of us think are part of Babylon. What have we retained from our time inside?
quote:While many have said that knowledge cannot save, yet what we believe does shape our lives and effect our relationship with God and our fellow man. The false teachings of Babylon are calculated to lead us down the wrong path. They are easier to hear than the truth, but of no eternal value.
A big Amen! Remember Satan that goes about roaring like a lion to devour, well he is behind the calculated Babylonian teachings.
quote:Jesus said, "I am the Truth." From this we can reason that knowing truth is knowing God. But even more than just knowing--doing. "The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." There's a whole sermon here tied to Matthew 7:23 which says, "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'"
Apparently, we become acquainted with Christ, and therefore God the Father, by participating in the life of Jesus. Not merely professing or teaching, but actually taking up our cross and following in his footsteps.
Yes. I might add, We are not just acquainted with Jesus; but we must know him in an intimate relationship as his bride. As his bride we are under his leadership to do his commandments and teach
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