posted
One author and friend of house churches, James Rutz, has documented dozens of cases in which people were raised from the dead! This, according to his new book which I haven't yet read.
True, there are always counterfeits of every good thing but Paul seems to write of miracle workers as if they were normative:
1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
posted
Hey David, I'm happy to be able to be a part of this...
True the Bible speaks of miracles at every time through out history. God worked in miraculous ways for the Isrealites all throughout the old testament. When Jesus Christ came to earth He completely expressed the perfect will of God. When we think of the ministry of Jesus usually two things come to mind (besides His ultimate act of laying down His life for ours): amazing teachings, and miracles. When He commisioned the apostles before His ascension, He told them that these signs would follow those who believed. Then in the book of acts, our blueprint for modern day church, miracles are as common as they were in the gospels. If we see what the church is in the context of continuing to represent God's will on earth, it is not hard to see that healing is part of God's plan. Jesus makes all things new, and we have been called to be His body. Praise God!
Healing, and the gifts of the spirit are always spoken about in the utmost cautiousness: "sure I believe in spiritual gifts, but i also believe in counterfiet ones". I always wondered why people didn't speak about salvation the same way: "sure I believe you can know your saved, but I also believe that some people aren't!". So anyways I believe healing (including raising people from the dead) is part of the Good news. I've seen many people healed as I've followed after the Lord. Since I myself was healed from chronic asthema, I have prayed for several other people who suffered from the same thing and saw them get healed as well (and stay healed). I've seen people who could not walk right because their one leg was shorter than the other walk away perfectly after they recieved prayer. I've felt swollen muscles shrink as I laid my hand on them. I'm thankful that God was not just temporarily healing people until the Bible was written. He truely is a good God who Loves us more than we could ever imagine. John Wimber once said that he struggled with whether or not God wanted to heal everyone. He later concluded that Jesus Himself calls us friends, and even a good friend would want to see you well. Praise God. This is a great topic Dave, thanks for starting it!
posted
hey david, i just realized you were asking me to talk more about my experiences.. sorry i should pay more attention to what I'm reading. Just let me know what you'd like me to share
I would like to know more about your experiences at the Toronto church too.
What type of things did you see there? You've mentioned healing. How did that occur? Did you see people slain in the spirit? Did you see people getting up, falling back, making noises,shaking, etc. Did you see those with holy laughter? Did anyone have black stuff come out of them? I ask the last, because we were invited to a local church to see that particular event once.
Thanks, Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Please don't take this as judging the experiences of others. I have no capacity to do that. But, I wanted to repeat some principals and cite a personal experience for the edification of the saints. They can judge for themselves, as we all must do.
Scripture teaches that miracles will attend Christ's followers. But similarly, in the last days, false miracles will be wrought for the purpose of deception. I believe that false miracles will also be on the rise. One reason for this is that there will be, as there always have been, many who trust in these physical manifestations as proof of the truth. It will be easy to deceive those who base their faith in the outward manifestation of miracles and other signs rather than seeking after actual truth which quite often comes clothed in quietness and peace without fanfair. We could probably lump these in with those who follow after the popular thought of the day rather than being willing to stand apart and be peculiar.
We are to always judge by the fruits. Thus, it would be good to review the fruits of the spirit. And, we know from Acts 5:38 that God give his Holy Spirit to those that obey him. Of course, without the Holy Spirit it is impossible for us to obey God. But God doesn't give power to those whom he knows will lead others away from him in disobedience.
It is interesting to note that disobedience and unbelief are often used interchangeably in scripture. Most notably in the NT. Of course, those who do not believe will not receive the Holy Spirit and will naturally be reprobate.
Miracles are a powerful deception which will be used by the false prophets and the beast power to cause many to lull many into a false worship. With miracles, as we have heard or seen today, on the rise it should be realized this is the budding fig leaf.
I will give some of my personal experiences later.
posted
Thanks Jeff, I was thinking much on the same line of thinking as you.
We really need to be discerning when it comes to the signs and wonders movements of the charismatic groups. I certainly believe in miracles and God’s healing and never judge a person's salvation or healing by where they may go to church, etc. However, I know of several in the charismatic movement who have either been involved with things that weren’t scriptural or who have seen such things. I have seen such things myself. Thus, we all need to be very careful not to let our own emotions or healing cloud our judgment as to the movement and the many things being done that are not scriptural.
The preacher who invited us to his church had a wrong spirit. When we said we weren’t interested he played on our emotions by telling us of the many healings and how you could even see black stuff come out of them and lay on the floor in front of them. He seemed to think if he had enough strange exciting things to show us, he could get us interested in going to see. Put on a good show to fill the seats.
We should remember that the people wanted a sign in Christ day and he said none would be given but 3 days and nights. People today still want signs or rather they want things for themselves. Healing is done for his glory not for our benefit or desire to live a longer life of selfishness. Even when Christ did heal, the people only came to get a miracle for themselves; few believed. Thus, signs are definitely not given by the Lord to get people to believe. Luke 11:29 (KJV) And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
One friend kept speaking of the many people slain in the spirit and how they’d fall backwards and pass out during healing at her church. Scripture never teaches such a thing as being “slain” in the spirit. People who were healed in the scriptures never fell backward. Instead the lame got up and walked, the blind could see and the deaf could hear. No mention is made of the strange “holy” laughter or the babble that many claim is evidence of the Holy Spirit. While it is true when the spirit came on them, mention is made that some would think they were drunk. I have yet to see a drunk act as some of these folks do. It is plain they are filled with a spirit but not the Holy Spirit.
As a child, I went to a healing meeting and saw first hand some of these “sign and wonders” and it was anything but Christ like. People screaming, frantically waving arms and jerking like epileptic fits and rolling in the floor. I never forgot that scene and even as a child, I knew that was not the Holy Spirit in those people. It was much more like a scene from a mental institution than a bar and certainly not a church.
A relative tarried to get the spirit by holding her arms up and chanting a noise over and over. When she was tired others came and held her arms up for her. She finally began to babble after several exhausting hours. Scripture never, never mentions the Holy Spirit coming to someone in this manner. They are filled instantly.
Scripture teaches that there will be “signs and wonders” so great as to deceive even God’s children if possible, thus, the need for discernment. Be a Berean and study daily to prove if these things are so or not. Don’t believe anything because it seems right, feels good, looks good, etc. (Remember how good the fruit looked to Eve?) Don’t rely on human emotions; but live by every word of God. If it is a big movement, watch out. If it’s a new way, watch out. Christ said it was finished. The way is narrow and few find it. The broad way leads to destruction.
One thing particularly notable about these groups is the prosperity gospel which plays on people’s selfishness and greed. You know what I’m talking about. If you give a dollar you’ll get a hundred and so on. Pray for a car and you get a Lincoln. Sorry folks but Jesus isn’t the goose that laid the golden eggs. He never promised to hand everything we want to us on a silver platter. He did promise we would have trials and tribulations as long as we live on the earth. Thus, we won’t always be healed or always get that fantastic job we wanted. He told us to be satisfied with food and raiment, to be content in want or plenty.
I want you to know I’m not saying all those healed in such groups weren’t healed by God. I know of one person who was healed who later came out of such places to give testimony of the errors taught. Sometimes God allows his children to wander into such places so they may give accurate testimony when they leave.
I pray each of you will ask the Lord for discernment in such matters and listen to his Holy Spirit not those of lying wonders.
Faith
Matthew 24:24 (KJV) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mark 13:22 (KJV) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
2 Thes. 2:8-12 (KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
In light of these scriptures is it any wonder there are more reports of the miraculous?
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Just a note regarding the idea of being "slain in the spirit"...
Every time the word "slain" is found in scripture DEATH took place!
The word is never used of someone who simply "fell down"!
The Holy Spirit brings life, not death! He brings people down in repentance but gives His grace to the humble. Scripture tells that if we humble ourselves in the sight of the Lord, he will lift us UP!
Not even one instance of people being slain in the spirit, or "going down under the power" can be found in scripture!
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Faith: [QB] Hi JR,
I would like to know more about your experiences at the Toronto church too.
What type of things did you see there?
You know, from all the hype that I had heard, the church services were calm...very calm... like the church that I normally attended would be considered more radical than this one.
You've mentioned healing. How did that occur? When I went up for pray a member of the church (who is a member of the prayer team) laid hands on me and began to pray that God would heal me of asthma. He was VERY CALM. He prayed that the Holy Spirit would come and heal me. He spoke just like you would speak in a normal conversation. As he prayed I could feel my chest beginning to loosen. I felt a ball begin to form in my chest. The sensation could only be likend to if you were to have metal scattered in your chest and someone put a magnet down there. All the "asthma" as it felt, began to come to one point and formed what felt like a ball. He would just pray for more of the Holy Spirit to heal me. I felt the ball slowly move up my chest until I began coughing and then spit out a large ball of 'i dont know what'. Immediately I could breathe. I mean really breath! The sensation was amazing! I felt like I got a whole new set of lungs, or the ones I had got bigger.
Did you see people slain in the spirit? Yes. Did you see people getting up, falling back, making noises,shaking, etc. No. Did you see those with holy laughter? My wife and I went outside the church after I was prayed for and started to run. We ran and ran and ran until she was out of breath! The whole thing was so ridiculous! God touched me and took away something that made my life just miserable. We began to laugh at how outrageous the whole thing was. We also cried tears of thankfullnes as we just praised Jesus for being so awesome. He is Awesome! Did anyone have black stuff come out of them? The stuff I coughed out might have been black but I don't know.
I hope this helps build what kind of experience I had. God Bless!
Thanks for your discription. What happened to these people you saw "slain" in the spirit? How do you explain the fact that scripture doesn't mention people being slain in the spirit? Also how do you explain, as Bruce pointed out, slain always means death in the scriptures?
How did you discern the spirits at this church?
BTW, in the instances I've seen, the preacher wasn't the one acting weird, it was the people touched or prayed for.
Another question please. Jr, did you see anyone cast out demons and how did that occur?
In the scriptures the demon was told to come out and that was that. It was not like I recently saw on TV, in which a team of prayer wariors prayed and commanded the demons come out and the demons spoke and continued to fight them. This went on for several hours if my memory is correct. Of course the show was about an hour. They showed the man talking in his normal voice and then in the weird sounding voice of the demons. This show reminded me of the Exhorsist rather than a biblical description of commanding demons out. Only once do I remember them talking back to Jesus and that was not in defiance but to ask to be put into the pigs. This was not a fictional show but supposedly the actual taping of a prayer team casting demons out of this guy. I think it was 60 minutes or another of those type of shows.
I also remember seeing what was happening to those at the Pennsacola church several years ago on another 60 minutes type program. They often were healed of their ailment only to develop a tic or other odd behavior.
These signs and wonders do appear to be biblical in the sense of the lying wonders that deceive. Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22; 2 Thes. 2:8-12 (KJV)
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
Hey Faith, I hope this finds you well. I wanted to respond to your questions again but before I did I wanted to clear something up. I have recently spent about two weeks emailing some one back and forth who held the same position as you do. We would exchange reasons as why we believed the things we do, until finally it was evident no one was going to change any one's mind. I AM NOT INTERESTED IN DEBATING. I am, however, interested in fellowship. If you sincerely are interested in what I believe and why I believe it, I would be more than happy to share with you. But, if you are looking for a sparing partner to argue with, I'm sorry I just don't have it in me. I hope I am coming across sincerely, and maybe I am being foolish, but I would really appreciate understanding where you are coming from.
I'm interested in what you've seen or I wouldn't have ask. I'm also interested in how you discern the spirits as I asked. If you feel I'm debating you, feel free to step out of the conversation.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
Faith, you use the Holy Spirit to discern spirits. What other way is there? Do you believe in the Biblical precedent of being baptized in the Holy Spirit? Do you beleive that Christians are supposed to have the elders of churches pray for those who are sick (and expect they will get healed). Do you believe that there are spiritual gifts that manifest (ie. gifts of healing, miracles, tounges, prophecy etc) as outlined in the New Testament. If you do not, you will not be able to understand what I'm talking about. You are very quick to point out counterfiet spirits. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit? I do not want to just stop talking on this forum because I think very highly of it. But if this really is just going to be another fruitless discussion, I guess I'll just stop. Does anyone else have a point of view on this subject???
(Hopefully you will allow me to intrude on your conversation to make a few statements. For those following along I would like to point out that we never USE the Holy Spirit. Nor do I think it is correct to say that the Holy Spirit USES us. That image is too much like a possession, as the demons possess. But God gives the Holy Spirit to the humble, not the proud. To the obedient and not the disobedient. So there is obviously a humble submissive human heart that allows the Holy Spirit to work through them. Even the inspired writers were not possessed. They were "moved" or stirred to write. They were not forced to write. Compelled, perhaps, but not possessed.)
jr., I too am free of asthma some 10 years now. Was it a miracle? I say, Yes. You may not think so when I tell you the story of how. I know what it's like to wake up at 2am and not be able to take a full breath. You don't know if you should call for help or wait. I developed a method of dealing with the asthma. I would sit for about 45 mins taking very shallow breaths and then puffing out several times. Then I would repeat it, each time wanting to gasp for breath but realizing I needed to stay calm. It is very terrifying. I hated to use my inhaler because it caused my heart to race which was also terrifying. So I learned to relax and control my breathing.
Anyway, one thing that Christ taught me when I threw myself upon his mercy is that we can break his law by the neglect or abuse of our own bodies. In fact, Paul asked the question, "Don't you know that your body does not belong to you but is the house of the Holy Spirit who [desires] to dwell in you?" If we wish to have the Holy Spirit dwell in us then we would want to keep a clean house--physically, spiritually, and mentally. Would you ever ask the Holy Spirit to step outside for a period of time so you could become a little drunk in order to relax? We all know that alcohol is used to overcome our inhibitions; as well as good judgment, reason, and reflex. This is contrary to the Christian walk which admonishes us to be holy, godly, righteous, temperate, kindly, and peaceable.
What I learned was that changing my diet and leaving off the vices was scriptural and good stewardship. Taking care of our bodies glorifies God and abusing them robs God of reaping the ROI from the talents entrusted to us. It only makes sense. I believe that many Christians have been taught to disregard their human bodies because they will, after all, be destroyed. But the language Paul uses in his argument against such thinking is pretty strong. "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." 1 Corinthians 3:17. Now there is probably not one Christian in 10 that doesn't know that the Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes defiled the temple building by offer a pig upon the alter. What about eating swine's flesh? Does that now defile our body which is the temple? Something to think about. I know I have thought of it. We can be such hypocrites in our walk.
So anyway, I have said all that to say this--that by changing my diet I am healed of asthma. And this is the Lord's doing, not mine. My strength comes from him. Is this less a miracle than yours? I don't think so. Perhaps a greater miracle because my heart was changed. Now the Lord has miraculously cured me of certain things. But I am a firm believer that he expects us to improve ourselves continually by the grace offered to us at such infinite cost. He doesn't often offer that magic pill that makes us well despite ourselves. And, at other times he does in his great mercy.
BTW, there were many benefits to changing my diet adding more variety, no tobacco, no alcohol, and smaller meat portions. Just to name a few:
1) Blood pressure dropped from 138/90 to 112/70 2) Weight dropped an overall 20 lbs 3) No asthma for 10 years 4) Almost no signs of allergy 5) No sinusitis 6) No post nasal drip 7) Heart rate dropped from 84 to 58/64 8) No problems with hemorrhoids for 10 years 9) People think I'm in my 30's 10) Liver function test normal for 1st time in my life
And there are others that elude my at this moment. But this is a good list. Another side benefit was that my insurance company tested me and doubled my life insurance policy value without increasing my monthly premium because I ranked in the top percentage of healthy Americans. Also, I am currently undergoing testing for a new health study which I am excited about. Statistically, my life expectancy is well over 100. (Of course, I have much irreparable damage do to my earlier abusive habits for which I have asked healing. But God has chosen to answer no, so I accept that. It serves as a reminder to be faithful.) So much more to tell...
So, I guess the moral of the story is, Don't discount wearing that motorcycle helmet to save your head, and stopping alcohol consumption altogether to save your liver and kidneys. God has given us intellegence to help us discern the spirits, too. Choose what is good and discard the useless and bad.
Well, I think that is enough for now. I would like to write about discerning the spirit at a later time.
I know the Holy Spirit teaches us truth. I also know the Holy Spirit never goes against scripture, which is why we are to study daily to prove if things are so or not. How do you discern that it is right to have people slain in the spirit? How can the Holy Sprit agree with something that is not scriptural? If I have missed the scriptures on that, what are they?
I do believe believers are filled with the Holy Sprit. I do believe in prayer for the sick. I do believe God heals and miracles occur. But I do believe there are many counterfeit spirits doing many counterfeit works to deceive even the elect if possible. Thus, the need for discernment.
Regarding your statement to Christine on the other thread:
quote:It is often frustrating when people will automatically discredit you and your ministry after identifying yourself with anything that resemble TACF.
I hope you don’t think I am discrediting you because of your time at TACF. I just wanted to know more about it. I wanted to see if the things I had read about it were true. From what you have shared, it seems much like the things I have seen myself over the years from other charismatic groups.
I do not judge you; but I do judge movements by the word of God. I ask you specific questions because I have never seen anyone who remained in these groups give scriptural proof that the types of things happening are from God. So far, they have all depended solely on their emotions which is a dangerous thing. I thought maybe you were different and could shed some light on these things if they are scriptural.
quote:You are very quick to point out counterfiet spirits.
So you agree they are counterfeit?
It is obvious the things I have shared from my own experiences have offended you. I can’t help that. I see absolutely no evidence from the word that the types of things I mentioned are from God. Since those things are similar to the things you have experienced, instead of getting offended, why not share some biblical discernment on them if they are really from God?
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
Faith, I am planning on getting back with you soon with some verses for you. In the mean time I wanted to know if anyone could pray for me. My wife and I had a contract on a house and it just fell through. We HAVE to be out of our current living arrangements by July 11th. We are trying to move into a underprivledged neighborhood where we do ministry. I appreciate all of your prayers.
You are both in my prayers. The Lord knows our needs even before we ask and is faithful to deliever us in times of need. I'm sure he'll make a way for you to find suitable housing.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Email this page to someone.
