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We know what Jesus did in the past. We know what Jesus will do in the future. My question is, What is Jesus doing now? Is he resting after his work on earth? Is he taking an extended vacation? What does scripture say?
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John 14:2-3 (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Hebrews 8:1 (KJV) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
1 Peter 3:22 (KJV) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Looks like he is reigning over angels, authorities and powers from the right hand of the throne while he also prepares a place for us. However, we also reign with him (sit together in the heavenly places).
Ephes. 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Also comes to mind the parables of the master or king who goes away to make preparations and leaves his servants occupying while he is gone. Jesus is our king now. We rule with him now by spreading the gospel light to the world until he comes for us. The battle is won, the war is won, it's just the loose ends (waiting for the last person to be saved) that need o be finished until our king comes to take us to that new place he's preparing.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Hey Jeff, It's a trick question! You are putting something spirtual which is not bound by time into our physical field..... What is the deads (both the righteous and the wicked) doing now?. Well, I'm certain of your answer given your background but would you please share a little regarding "paradise" as in Luke 23:43? Thanks.
I wonder how long it take him to prepare a place for us, in the physical sense? He created the world in 6 days. But what I do think is that Jesus is currently working in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest. The model is the earthly sanctuary given to the Israelites. That was a shadow of the true. (Heb 8,9,10). He is mediating before the Father with his blood shed at calvary, hearing our confessions and pleading our cases. This work could be finished quickly as well except the Lord is long-suffering, not willing that any should perish. His mercy causes him to linger. Every case will be thoroughly investigated and every opportunity will be given. But the end must come some day as the evil in the world increases in intensity, frequency, and duration, just like a woman in labor pains.
Scripture tells us very plainly what the dead are doing now. "These things said [Jesus]: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep." John 11:11. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." 1 Thessalonians 4:14. "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth..." John 5:28-29. "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2
Just as Jesus rested on the 7th day after his work of creation was finished, so too he rested in the tomb on the Sabbath after his earthly work was finished. Both times he declared his work finished and then he rested (ceased from his work). But he did not stop working until it was "very good," or "Finished."
Jesus rested in the tomb on the Sabbath and arose very early Sunday morning. When Mary thought to detain him by grabbing his feet he told her, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." John 20:17. By this statement we know that he did not ascend to heaven that day.
quote:Psalm 146 - 2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. {help: or, salvation} 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Now, can we ignore all of this and place Jesus and the thief in paradise before the resurrection? With what reasoning will we do this? Will we even cause Jesus to contradict himself?
On the cross Jesus told the thief, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43. Yet, earlier Jesus had stated, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Did Jesus arise before this? In light of all the compelling evidence that a person knows nothing in death, but sleeps, and no evidence stating that a person goes to heaven when they die, the only way to understand Luke 23:43 is to realize that the comma could have been placed after the words "to day" rather than before. Then the record would show that Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you to day, thou shalt be with me in paradise." And, this passage would agree with the weight of evidence that a person sleeps in death.
However, this was not the death that Jesus died for you and I. He did not die the 1st death that is appointed unto all men because believers still die. The death that Jesus took upon himself in our stead was the 2nd death. This must be because, he tasted death for all men and yet many men have already tasted the 1st death for themselves. But some men will not even taste of the 1st death. Yet, all men have sinned. So there must be a death from which they are preserved. Plus, the 1st death is not the wrath of God. God's wrath comes by fire. Who has yet died by burning in the lake of fire? So then, the death that Jesus took upon himself was the 2nd death--the final death from which there is no return. This is the death that Jesus described as the destruction of "both body and soul in hell."
So by holding to the error that our souls are immortal we make Jesus a liar three times. Once in the garden when he said, "You shall surely die" and the Serpant said, "Ye shall not die." Twice, because we say that Lazarus was not asleep in death but was enjoying the bliss of heaven. And, thrice, because we say the soul cannot die even if cast with the body into hell for destruction. What kind of teaching is this? To accuse our Lord of breaking his own commandments? If he had broken the commandments then he would have died for his own sin, for the wages of sin is death. But we know that he was without sin. He knew no sin. Therefore, he did not lie when he said, "Truly!" or "Truthfully."
Another significant truth is understood by placing the comma after the words "to day" rather than before. (Remember, punctuation was introduced later as were the chapters and verses and the red lettering. It is not necessarily inspired. And, in fact, in some cases seems to have followed no rhyme or reason.) If Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you today," rather than "Verily I say unto you, today," then we see another picture than the one typically preached. The message then becomes, "You have faith in me even though I am dying on this cross with you this day. But I promise you this day, even though it appears I am defeated, that I am the resurrection and the life and I will rise again after three days, and because you believed on me in my darkest hour you will be with me in paradise." Jesus gave him assurance that very day.
There really can be no other interpretation since there is no scripture which tell us that the saints go to their reward at death. The scripture does tell us that the judgment comes in the last day and then we receive our reward. And, when Jesus comes he will bring his reward with him to give to every man according as his works shall be. But regarding death the scripture tells us that when we die our thoughts perish. "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:10.
Do you have any scriptures as plain as these that say we go to heaven or hell at death? Or, do you rely on only the parable of Jesus which was given to illustrate the principal of giving and was not meant to teach about life after death?
Did this answer your question about paradise? How do you see it?
I was expecting you said that - which was same as what's said at www.amazingfacts.org. You know what? I watched amazing facts TV program this very morning and Doug explained exactly the same! Talk about coincidents! I would like to accept the explanations but there are problems: 1. Why the need for "today" in Luke 23:43. I am not able to draw a parallel at any verse said by Jesus or anyone in NT like that. Why not simply "Verily I say unto you, thou shalt be with me in paradise" or "Verily I say unto you now, thou shalt be with me in paradise" 2. Paradise - It's not the new heavens and the new earth. What would it be?
And no, Jesus or the Father didn't rest on the Seventh day of Creation. He just merely stopped the work of creation - John 5:17
I couldn't find the link to Amazing Facts. I'd like to hear what you heard to see what he has to say.
Yes, Jesus rested in that he was done creating and so he ceased from his work of creating. He did not need to rest as in sleep. However, he stopped working and rested from his work on that day.
Now, how about we get back to what Jesus is doing right now. He is our High Priest in the heavenly tabernacle. (Heb 9:11,12). Isn't he applying his blood as an atonement for our sins just as the earthly High Priest was known to do as a shadow of the true? "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
I'd like to add a comment about the word "today" as in
Luke 23:43 (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
I have understood death in much the same way as Jeff has explained. Scriptures call it sleep. They also state that the dead have no memory, thus are not concious.
When I sleep at night, many things might happen. There may be a very big and loud storm but I will have no memory of that as long as I sleep soundly. When I wake in the morning, I will not remember what happened during the time I was asleep. I will go to sleep in the dark of night and the next instant it's daylight when I awake.
Those who die in Christ, sleep until his return. Then they wake to their eternal reward in paradise. Thus, after death, the next thing they know is eternity. No matter if they were in the grave one day or several thousand years, it will seem like the next instant to them.
That's how I understand the passage about today in paradise.
quote:I wonder how long it take him to prepare a place for us, in the physical sense? He created the world in 6 days. But what I do think is that Jesus is currently working in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest.
Of course Christ could prepare a place for us instantly since he's God. Or in your view of the 7,000 years maybe it would take him 2,000 years to make it? Preparing a place for us is only one thing mentioned that he is doing or will do during his time away from us.
I agree he is our High Priest. He is also our King ruling now.
quote:Every case will be thoroughly investigated and every opportunity will be given. But the end must come some day as the evil in the world increases in intensity, frequency, and duration, just like a woman in labor pains.
This sounds like you believe Christ is judging now.
Thus, I don't understand your view on the millenium. How can there be a thousand year rest and a 1,000 year judgment? Judging sounds like a lot of work to me. Why would there need to be a 1,000 year time of judgment if he is judging now?
How do these problems fit into the puzzle?
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Yes, I believe scripture tells us that Christ is judging now. When he comes he brings his rewards with him so the judgment is finished before he comes. What? You say! Yes, the judgment must happen before he comes else when will he determine who goes where? In an instant? The 1000 years is our review of his judgment and the final sentencing of the guilty. We would not be in heaven reviewing the records unless our judgment had ended and our eternal destiny determined.
I briefly touched on this before. The Israelites confessed sins daily and the priest ministered the blood of the innocent victim. But at the end of each year was the Day of Atonement. It is called Yom Kippur on our calendar today. It just passed. On the day of atonement the people were judged as to who would stay and who would be separated from them. Since their economy was a shadow of the true, there must be a true High Priest in heaven to go into the true Holy of Holies during the true Day of Atonement. Even the tabernacle which Moses built he built after the pattern that God showed him in the mount. In Revelation we see an altar (Rev 8:3), a temple (Rev 14:17), golden candlesticks (Rev 1:12), and the ark of the testament (Rev 11:19). (I wonder if the two tables of stone containing the 10 Commandments are inside the ark of the testament which is in heaven?)
The book of Hebrews has much to say about this subject:
quote: Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Hebrews 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Why don't you ask me to show you when the great "Day of Atonement" started. (But, I am still working on the desolation of the earth during the 1000 years, and my volunteer job. So answers have been brief. But I try to stay up.)
quote: Yes, I believe scripture tells us that Christ is judging now. When he comes he brings his rewards with him so the judgment is finished before he comes. What? You say! Yes, the judgment must happen before he comes else when will he determine who goes where? In an instant?
How do you explain Christ bringing his rewards with him, determining who goes where in an instant and your theory that the dead are raised after the 1,000 years to finally receive that reward? Doesn’t make sense.
quote:The 1000 years is our review of his judgment and the final sentencing of the guilty. We would not be in heaven reviewing the records unless our judgment had ended and our eternal destiny determined.
What scriptures explain that we are in heaven reviewing for 1,000 years. Please not Rev. 20 again! All scriptures I have seen state we judge not review the judgment already handed down.
As for your ideas on the day of atonement, the atonement has been fulfilled once and for all by the blood of Christ, the final sacrifice for sin.
I skimmed the article you listed and noticed it said:
quote: Ever since Jesus entered the most holy place through the veil, He has been engaged in the work of judgment, cleansing the record of sin by appealing His blood to the Father.
I haven’t seen that in scriptures. Christ is the mediator between us and God, thus one more thing he is doing now. However, his blood needs no appealing to the Father for it was and still is the one and only perfect sacrifice. It needs no appealing!
Hi Chubbena,
You asked
quote: So are you implying "paradise" is indeed "new heavens and new earth"?
quote:How do you explain Christ bringing his rewards with him, determining who goes where in an instant and your theory that the dead are raised after the 1,000 years to finally receive that reward? Doesn’t make sense.
What doesn't make sense? When Christ comes he separates the sheep from the goats. One is taken, the other left behind. If they have not already been judged then how does he determine the sheep from the goats, who goes and who is left behind? Now you believe that the lake of fire happens when Christ comes to redeem the sheep. I am saying it happens 1000 years later. The lost have already been judged unworthy and have received their reward before the 1000 years begins. They are sitting on death row, figuratively, waiting for their execution to be carried out after the 1000 years, at which time they are raised in the 2nd resurrection because they had no part of the 1st resurrection. Because they did not have part in the 1st resurrection the 2nd death will have power over them. Only those who take part of the 1st resurrection escape the 2nd death. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power." Rev 20:6. The 2nd death is the lake of fire. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Rev 21:8.
You also asked:
quote:What scriptures explain that we are in heaven reviewing for 1,000 years. Please not Rev. 20 again! All scriptures I have seen state we judge not review the judgment already handed down.
Now what makes sense to you: 1) Jesus takes the saints to judge who will be saints to judge and who will die, or 2) Jesus judges all men, takes the saints to review the judgment and decide the sentencing phase, and leaves the wicked behind?
You stated:
quote:As for your ideas on the day of atonement, the atonement has been fulfilled once and for all by the blood of Christ, the final sacrifice for sin.
I skimmed the article you listed and noticed it said:
. quote: Ever since Jesus entered the most holy place through the veil, He has been engaged in the . work of judgment, cleansing the record of sin by appealing His blood to the Father.
I haven’t seen that in scriptures. Christ is the mediator between us and God, thus one more thing he is doing now. However, his blood needs no appealing to the Father for it was and still is the one and only perfect sacrifice. It needs no appealing!
You are right when you say that "Christ is the mediator between us and God." What qualifies Jesus to be our mediator? If it is his blood, then by his blood he pleads for our pardon against the law which demands justice and shows no mercy. If this is not correct then what is his work of mediation between us and God?
Hebrews says that Jesus is our High Priest. He enters into the holy of holies by his blood. He mediates on our behalf before his Father's throne. What does the Jewish economy teach us about the work of the High Priest? When did he officiate, how often, and what work did he accomplish?
quote:I am saying it happens 1000 years later. The lost have already been judged unworthy and have received their reward before the 1000 years begins. They are sitting on death row, figuratively, waiting for their execution to be carried out after the 1000 years, ...
How can some one receive their reward before the thousand years and yet still be waiting for it to be carried out? The sentance is not the reward. When Christ comes some receive life and others death. No mention is ever made in scripture stating that the wicked must wait 1,000 years to finally get their reward! If there is such a scripture, please provide it, as I have yet to see it.
quote:Now what makes sense to you: 1) Jesus takes the saints to judge who will be saints to judge and who will die, or 2) Jesus judges all men, takes the saints to review the judgment and decide the sentencing phase, and leaves the wicked behind?
Again you've dodged the issue. I don't want to know what you or I think makes more sense between your examples. I want concrete scriptures that state the saints "review" the books a thousand years.
quote:What does the Jewish economy teach us about the work of the High Priest? When did he officiate, how often, and what work did he accomplish?
It doesn't matter when, how often or what the OT High Priest did. The old system has been done away with. Christ made the one and only sacrifice needed.
Hebrews 7:27 (KJV) Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
The old Jewish economy has past away. But it was only a shadow of the true.
The true High Priest is Jesus.
Hebrews 4:14 "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession."
The true tabernacle is in heaven.
Hebrews 8:1,2 "Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man."
Moses built a shadow of the true.
Hebrews 8:5 "[The earthly priests] Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount."
The true Lamb was the Son of God.
John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
The blood of animals can never forgive sin.
Hebrews 10:4 "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."
The earthly high priest entered into the holy place with the blood of animals once every year.
Hebrews 9:7 "But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:"
Jesus also entered into the holy place as our high priest by his own blood.
Hebrews 9:12 "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."
But Jesus need not do this every year because his blood if efficacious, as you said.
Hebrews 9:26 "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."
Hebrews 9:12 "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."
Jesus has entered into the true tabernacle in heaven as the true High Priest mediating the better covenant before the Father. What is that but the antitypical Day of Atonement?
What is the typical Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur?
quote:The name "Yom Kippur" means "Day of Atonement," and that pretty much explains what the holiday is. It is a day set aside to "afflict the soul," to atone for the sins of the past year. In Days of Awe, I mentioned the "books" in which G-d inscribes all of our names. On Yom Kippur, the judgment entered in these books is sealed. This day is, essentially, your last appeal, your last chance to change the judgment, to demonstrate your repentance and make amends. Click ==> Jewish Virtual Library
So when the angel cries with a loud voice in Revelation 14:7 "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come," this is telling us that the great, antitypical Day of Atonement has begun in heaven. And this prophecy tells us when it began. Daniel 8:14 "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
Now, it would be woefully negligent for us to ignore this work of Christ in heaven on our behalf as our High Priest and mediator of the better covenant.
Hebrews 10:29 "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
And, equally woefully remiss for us to ingore the warning.
SO I don't understand your comment, "It doesn't matter when, how often or what the OT High Priest did. The old system has been done away with. Christ made the one and only sacrifice needed," since Jesus is doing the work of the High Priest now in heaven. He is actively mediating his blood on our behalf while the great Day of Atonement, the judgment, is going on. What a solemn thought!
quote:SO I don't understand your comment, "It doesn't matter when, how often or what the OT High Priest did. The old system has been done away with. Christ made the one and only sacrifice needed," since Jesus is doing the work of the High Priest now in heaven. He is actively mediating his blood on our behalf while the great Day of Atonement, the judgment, is going on. What a solemn thought!
I see Christ atoning sacrifice as the fulfillment of the day of atonement. I don't see any scriptures stating he is continually mediating his blood. Infact, I don't see scriptures that state he ever mediated his blood. What does that term mean? Where is such in scriptures? He gave his blood once. Once was enough to cover the sins of the whole world.
According to Webster, mediation means: intervention between conflicting parties to promote reconcilliation, settlement, or compromise. According to Strong's the word means: a go-between, an internunciator, of a reconciler, intercessor, mediator.
Everyone is a sinner. Sinners must die and can't enter the kingdom. Thus, we needed someone to pay our debt and cleanse us from our sin. Jesus did that with his life. We are counted righteous by his righteousness. He has interceded for us that we can be reconciled to God and enter his kingdom. Thus, he interceded or mediated with his life blood one time for all.
If the day of atonement is, as you say, the last chance to repent and make amends, then it is currently going on; because today is the day of salvation and judgment is now for the church and for the wicked. When Christ returns the books have already been sealed. He comes to hand out the rewards. The sentance has already been decided during this gospel, salvation age.
How can there be a continual mediation of Christ blood in light of Heb. 10?
Hebrews 10:26-27 (KJV) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,[ [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
By saying he is mediating his blood for us now, sounds like he is giving his life over and over. That is similar to the RC mass.
BTW, do you have no comments on the other two issues I asked about? How can one receive a reward and yet still be waiting for it? Where do scriptures state we "review" the books?
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
I just want to get a little more clarity about what you are saying.
1) Since you say I am wrong, what do you think Jesus is doing now?
2) Also, what do you see as our work of judgment during the 1000 years?
You asked:
quote:BTW, do you have no comments on the other two issues I asked about? How can one receive a reward and yet still be waiting for it?
I thought I answered this. Let me try again. When Jesus comes (1 Thes 4) to receive his own he gathers some up to meet him in the air and others are left dead on the earth from his brightness. Haven't all received their rewards at this time? Some eternal life, some eternal death. There is no waiting. The rewards have been given out.
If a jury renders a guilty verdict at the trial of a murderer has the defendent received his reward? It has been determined against him but the execution of the sentence has not yet been carried out. This does not mean he has not received his reward of the death penalty. Then he goes to prison on death row waiting for execution.
When the wicked are finally burned up have any been waiting in their graves for their final reward? First you die, then the judgment.
quote: Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
quote: If a jury renders a guilty verdict at the trial of a murderer has the defendent received his reward? It has been determined against him but the execution of the sentence has not yet been carried out. This does not mean he has not received his reward of the death penalty. Then he goes to prison on death row waiting for execution.
Here we disagree. When a person is put on death row, I do not see them as having received their reward. Until they are actually put to death, there is a possibility of them getting a pardon. Thus, if pardoned, they would not receive the reward of the death penalty.
We should remember that we all were already guilty and on death row before we became converted! Thus, the saints have been pardoned. Everyone else is still on death row until Christ returns. Once he returns, there is no hope of pardon for them. The sentence they already have now will be carried out with swift judgment.
Malachi 3:5 (KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts.
Rev. 22:12 (KJV) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
quote: When the wicked are finally burned up have any been waiting in their graves for their final reward? First you die, then the judgment.
You are assuming that all men die before judgment. However, those people who are alive at the return of Christ do not die. We know the saints go up without tasting of the physical death. As for the wicked who are alive, I remember scripture saying they wish the rocks would hide them.(Rev. 6:16) Thus, they are alive and know judgment is come to them. We must remember all men in the graves hear and awake to judgment at Christ’s return, there is no mention of the wicked being to be put to death so they can be raised again to judgment.
You also gave this passage. 2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
I notice that punishment is handed out on the day of judgment. The day of the Lord is the day of judgment. Reward is handed out to some and punishment handed out to the rest.
quote: 1) Since you say I am wrong, what do you think Jesus is doing now?
He is our King and reigning from the throne. See post one.
quote:2) Also, what do you see as our work of judgment during the 1000 years?
See post under Lord’s day/ Tribulation and Rapture/ Judgment: What is our part?
BTW, if we are taken to the new earth at Christ return to be with him and the Father for eternity(1 Cor. 15:24), how can we review the deeds of the wicked? There is to be no more crying or sorrow in the new earth (Rev. 21:4). Wouldn’t reviewing the deeds of the wicked for 1,000 years bring us crying and sorrow as we saw how wicked our unsaved friends, family, etc. had been? How could we think or discuss such things for 1,000 years, when we aren’t to speak of them now? (Eph. 5:12)
If indeed we have to think on these awful things for 1,000 years, it is plain that we can’t have been taken to the new earth, new heaven, new Jerusalem for all the old things have passed away once we are there. (Rev. 21:1 & 4) So where are we during this 1,000 years? Looks like our reward is also put on hold until the 1,000 years is up. We still have just the promise of the heavenly kingdom; but don’t receive it until all wickness and death have been destroyed. Wouldn’t these things be true if your scenario of 1,000 years of reviewing is true?
It looks like we both could use a little more careful study of these matters. In your earlier post elsewhere you said:
quote:**The final sentencing of judgment is handed out on the day of the Lord for those who did good or bad. However, the decision of judgment has already been made. The believers have one reward and the unbelievers receive another. We are judged now in this life but the sentence is not handed out until Christ returns.
2 Peter 2:9 (KJV) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
**Just as our crowns are reserved so is the punishment of the unjust reserved.
2 Peter 3:7 (KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Jude 1:6 (KJV) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
**We know Satan and his angels are already judged evil but will receive punishment on the last great day.
This agrees with what I said in the post above. But here, in your response to my post above, you say :
quote:You also gave this passage. 2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
I notice that punishment is handed out on the day of judgment. The day of the Lord is the day of judgment. Reward is handed out to some and punishment handed out to the rest.
You seem to contradict yourself.
quote:I think we all agree if we died now that our heavenly fate would be sealed as either a believer or non-believer. Belief is the criteria for judgment. That is why we are warned many times not to judge our fellow men for we can�t see in their hearts and know if they really believe or not. We can�t always know why they do what they do. We can judge actions as wrong; but we can�t judge the salvation of someone. That is reserved for God.
Your logic doesn't appear to be much different than mine, though I used a poor analogy, as you pointed out, because a man on death row here can be pardoned but once Christ judges us his judgment is final.
But, in the "Judgment" post you referred me to I don't see that you answer the question of what we will be during the 1000 years unless you are saying that the 1000 years began after the cross. So you see that we are judging Israel now by our belief. I don't see the 1000 years starting until Christ comes. Then we judge in heaven for 1000 years.
In the verses you quoted to make your case you mentioned Matthew 19:28. This Jesus said to his apostles. He is telling them that after the "restitution of all things" when he sits on his throne, they will sit with him and judge. Has this happened yet? No, not yet.
I would like to ask you whether or not you believe that Christ will come again? Or, do you believe that the world will continue to get better and better until Christ's kingdom grows so large it subdues all the nations? Many today have lost their hope in the 2nd coming of Christ. They seem to believe that if given enough time we can make things better. This is humanism, not Christianity.
quote: It looks like we both could use a little more careful study of these matters.
That is true, we can all, always use more study. No matter how many times we read scriptures, something else we haven’t seen can come to light, often changing how we view many things.
quote:I would like to ask you whether or not you believe that Christ will come again? Or, do you believe that the world will continue to get better and better until Christ's kingdom grows so large it subdues all the nations? Many today have lost their hope in the 2nd coming of Christ. They seem to believe that if given enough time we can make things better. This is humanism, not Christianity.
First, I’d like to say that I do believe that Christ will come again. I believe that he will take the saints up and destroy the wicked and Satan at that time. I’m not sure how you could come to the conclusion that I didn’t. I’ve gone over and over the fact that when he returns he brings his reward for both the wicked and the righteous.
I do not believe that the world will get better and better until he comes. I believe that men wax worse and worse and refuse to repent. Only a remnant believe. The majority are in apostasy.
Oh, now I get it. Have you been reading about those who hold to the reconstruction position? There are some who believe they reign now and that the world will get better and better and in fact that Christ can’t come until they clean up the world and create utopia. They claim they are taking the world for Christ. That is a heresy!
The only thing I have in common with them is that I do not see a future millennium and neither do they. While we both see the millennium or 1,000 year time as the present, we have totally different views of what happens during that time.
They see a physical kingdom with them ruling with the rod of iron now. Much like the RC inquisition, they plan to force everyone to comply to their idea of religion. I suspect that a new temple in Jerusalem and mandatory worship will be part of it if the Lord allows them to continue that long.
Whereas, the view I hold sees the millennium as present; but spiritual; a kingdom made up of spirit filled believers that can’t be seen by the world. We are now priests with Christ.(1 Pet.2:9) We are to occupy till he returns to gather us and take us to the Father.(Luke 19:13) We are to spread the gospel to the world; but force no one to do anything. We are to live in the world, but not be of the world.(John15:19; Jn.17:14 & 16) We are to walk in the spirit.(Gal. 5:16 &25) The world can’t understand a kingdom like that for all it sees is the physical.
It looks like I could have worded the following a bit better so I wasn’t so confusing.
quote:**The final sentencing of judgment is handed out on the day of the Lord for those who did good or bad. However, the decision of judgment has already been made. The believers have one reward and the unbelievers receive another. We are judged now in this life but the sentence is not handed out until Christ returns.
Instead of “the final sentencing of judgment, I should have stated the sentence or actual reward, actual punishment. As you see in the last sentence I said “the sentence is not handed out until Christ returns.” It seems we have misunderstandings because we each understand words differently.
I see the final sentence that is handed out, (clue: handed out) as the final actual punishment given. In other words, those whose sentence is hell, finally receive the actual sentence or more precisely, the carrying out of that sentence. They are cast into hell. So when scripture states Christ returns and brings his reward with him, I see the saints go up and the wicked go down to the lake.
I’m still confused how you can see the saints go up and the wicked go into the grave at Christ coming. What happens to the wicked who were already dead and who rose when the saints rose? Remember scripture states all in the grave hear and awake, some to life and some to death.
I think 2 Pet. 2 is very clear that they receive their punishment on the day of judgment. You seem to think the word reserve means that the punishment is somehow at a different time than the reward of the righteous. However, this passage speaking of delivering the godly out of temptations is speaking in the present tense. He delivers us out of temptations now and has reserved the unjust to be punished on judgment day, the same day the godly will be given their crowns.
2 Peter 2:9 (KJV) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
1 Peter 5:4 (KJV) And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
**Just as our crowns are reserved so is the punishment of the unjust reserved. You seem to think that the day of judgment for the wicked is 1,000 years after Christ comes. However, scripture never gives a time period between the judging or rather rewarding of the good versus the evil. (When I use the words reward or rewarding, I mean giving the reward, giving live or death, taking up or casting down.)
Christ is said to judge at his appearing (both the quick and dead) , However, he lets the good and evil grow together in the world until the “end of the world”. They are not separated for 1,000 years.
2 Tim. 4:1 (KJV) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Matthew 13:30-39 (KJV) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn������. [39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Judgment day is the last day. The day Christ raises up his own to have eternal life. He hands out their rewards (“crown of glory”) when he appears. Thus, since he judges and hands out rewards at his appearing, the end of the world, how can you get another 1,000 years? Remember what happens at the end of the world? (2 Pet.3?10) The world and all works, burned up and melted. How could Satan live here since the earth is gone? Where would the wicked be in graves, since the earth is gone?
John 6:39-40 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:48 (KJV) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
1 Peter 5:4 (KJV) And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
For more scripture to show what happens at Christ return at the last trumpet, see post under Lord’s Day/ Tribulation & rapture/ The last trump.
quote:But, in the "Judgment" post you referred me to I don't see that you answer the question of what we will be during the 1000 years unless you are saying that the 1000 years began after the cross. So you see that we are judging Israel now by our belief. I don't see the 1000 years starting until Christ comes. Then we judge in heaven for 1000 years.
Yes I have said before the 1,000 year time is the gospel age, beginning with the first advent to the second advent. We reign with Christ now in the spiritual kingdom. His kingdom was never earthly!
Yes we judge by our belief. We know from scripture that all are guilty of sin. Thus, what is to judge? We judge that those who believe will receive eternal life and those who reject Christ and remain in sin will receive the second death. How can we judge such? Because we believe Christ and his words.
I see no scripture to indicate that we sit at a desk with a gavel in hand and try each person’s case. I do see that each person stands before God’s judgment. He is the one who knows each and every heart and makes judgment. He knows who is pardoned and who is not.
I might add that we are to judge what is right and do that in our own lives and to reprove evil. That doesn’t mean we go around telling people they are going to hell. Rather we stand for what is good and true and right. We show by our actions what the Lord would have people do. We also speak out against sin---not against people. We must be careful not to become self-righteous; but challenge the world to examine their own hearts.
quote: In the verses you quoted to make your case you mentioned Matthew 19:28. This Jesus said to his apostles. He is telling them that after the "restitution of all things" when he sits on his throne, they will sit with him and judge. Has this happened yet? No, not yet.
Matthew 19:28 (KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
I used to think this verse was in the future but have reconsidered. Notice Jesus is alive and speaking to his faithful disciples. He states that when he “shall sit in the throne of his glory” they will also sit on thrones judging. Remember this is before he died, was raised, and went up into the clouds.
May I ask where is Jesus now? Where did he go when he left in the clouds? Is he now sitting on the throne?
Acts 7:49 (KJV) Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Hebrews 8:1 (KJV) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Hebrews 12:2 (KJV) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Cor. 15:25 (KJV) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Rev. 1:4 (KJV) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev. 3:21 (KJV) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
***According to the above, I would say Christ is on the throne now.
Ephes. 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
1 Cor. 4:8 (KJV) Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
2 Tim. 2:12 (KJV) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Rev. 5:10 (KJV) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
****According to the above, I would say we “sit together in heavenly places” and we reign as kings.
Kings have authority to rule, to judge, etc. However, we are spiritual kings----not physical. Thus, we’re not going to physically judge people with a rod of iron. (Many use the rod of iron passage, but if we pay attention, it refers to God’s wrath being poured out---not a time of reform nor judgment by us.)
Here is the verse that leads me to believe Matt. 19 maybe in the future. I’m not sure if there is a difference in “the throne” and “the throne of glory”.
Matthew 25:31 (KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matthew 19:28 (KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
According to these two passages above, it seems the “throne of glory” maybe different from the throne from which Christ reigns now. Chapter 19 speaks of the regeneration. Christ has already been regenerated or changed from his mortal form to his immortal form. Thus, is the regeneration spoken of pertaining to the change of the saints to immortal or to Christ returning to the heavenly throne? Matt. 25 leads us to believe he sits on the “throne of his glory” only after his second advent. Thus, where is he now? Is the throne he rules from now not glorious? I have to admit it is a bit puzzling. But that is to be expected as we still see with our human eyes and reasoning through a dark mirror.
Luke 1:32-33 (KJV) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: [33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
And then there is the throne of David. Christ set up his kingdom right on schedule with the 70 weeks prophesy. His kingdom has no end. Is this throne of David the same as the “throne of glory”?
While I don’t have all the answers or all understanding, none of us do, I think there ample evidence to show that we live and reign with the Lord while we are on the earth. Once in the new heaven and earth, why would we need to be kings and priests? Who would we need authority over? Who would we need to witness to?
Do you have an answer to the following questions I asked before?
BTW, if we are taken to the new earth at Christ return to be with him and the Father for eternity(1 Cor. 15:24), how can we review the deeds of the wicked? There is to be no more crying or sorrow in the new earth (Rev. 21:4). Wouldn’t reviewing the deeds of the wicked for 1,000 years bring us crying and sorrow as we saw how wicked our unsaved friends, family, etc. had been? How could we think or discuss such things for 1,000 years, when we aren’t to speak of them now? (Eph. 5:12)
If indeed we have to think on these awful things for 1,000 years, it is plain that we can’t have been taken to the new earth, new heaven, new Jerusalem for all the old things have passed away once we are there. (Rev. 21:1 & 4) So where are we during this 1,000 years? Looks like our reward is also put on hold until the 1,000 years is up. We still have just the promise of the heavenly kingdom; but don’t receive it until all wickness and death have been destroyed. Wouldn’t these things be true if your scenario of 1,000 years of reviewing is true?
I was just thinking what a beautiful name that is--FAITH.
I am enjoying our discussions. I am glad that we are able to disagree amiably and to sputter and falter yet continue on. We have so many beliefs in common that I am a bit sad we are focusing on our differences. And, yet, there is opportunity here for both of us to come into a better understanding of scripture and our own personal beliefs. I believe that we should gather together in small groups to study. Not that I have anything against large groups other than the challenges of consensus and participation. I like to think that when two or more study together it is like fastening two or more pieces of lumber together with the grains opposing--each holding the other to the mark and standing firm where the other bends so that together they are straighter and stronger. It is not good for us to go off and study by ourselves all the time. We need to come together and use each other as sounding boards to help keep us moving forward and, hopefully, in a straighter line.
Now, down to business.
You wrote:
quote:First, I’d like to say that I do believe that Christ will come again. I believe that he will take the saints up and destroy the wicked and Satan at that time. I’m not sure how you could come to the conclusion that I didn’t. I’ve gone over and over the fact that when he returns he brings his reward for both the wicked and the righteous. I do not believe that the world will get better and better until he comes. I believe that men wax worse and worse and refuse to repent. Only a remnant believe. The majority are in apostasy.
Yes, I have read your posts but it helps once in a while to have to defend our faith. It makes us stronger to proclaim it and I just wanted to be sure you were not slipping toward the beaten pathway.
quote:Oh, now I get it. Have you been reading about those who hold to the reconstruction position? There are some who believe they reign now and that the world will get better and better and in fact that Christ can’t come until they clean up the world and create utopia. They claim they are taking the world for Christ. That is a heresy! ... They see a physical kingdom with them ruling with the rod of iron now. Much like the RC inquisition, they plan to force everyone to comply to their idea of religion. I suspect that a new temple in Jerusalem and mandatory worship will be part of it if the Lord allows them to continue that long.
I hadn't heard of the reconstruction position. I don't see any problem with taking the world for Christ. I think the cause is a good one and we certainly should be trying to convert everyone to Christ. But the method is the problem. Such methods as force are never used by true Christians. Your scenario agree much with the one I painted in an earlier post. I think it is a valid concern and likely scenario. Refer to ==> Basic Matters » Institutional Churches » The Future of the Institutional Church (Page 1)
With a name like Faith, I would expect nothing less than for you to exercise great faith. And we know that faith has eyes to see the unseen, and hope that makes the future a present reality. It is very good to believe the naked promises of Jesus as you do. I don't want to squelch that in any way. So this next sentence is going to be very hard to word correctly. Maybe I should start with an example.
When scripture says that Jesus is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," how should we interpret that?
Should we interpret it to mean that Jesus was slain much earlier than the record states? Yes, and No. No, because we know that Jesus was crucified about 31AD. That is thousands of year since the foundation of the world. But, then again, Yes, because before God laid the foundation of this world, Jesus agreed to die to save us. Being the word of God it could not fail. When a trustworthy man gives his word that he will do something, we say that "it is as good as done!" Well, with God we can put our full trust in his word. Is that what we call faith, Faith? (Couldn't resist.)
I guess what I am trying to say is that some of the promises of God in scripture are to be realized in a future fulfillment but that we can here and now accept them as if we have already received them because God has promised them to us on condition that we believe and overcome. What should that say to us about all those verses about having power to become the children of God? Do we claim those here and now, too? Surely!
So to drive to my point... some of the verses you are using to support your argument that we are now in the 1000 year period are supported by your faith in the promises of God to deliver on his word but some of those promises will not have their actual fulfillment in the here and now.
Study this promise found in Acts, chapter 3, verses 22,23:
quote:For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
At first reading we could interpret that to mean that if anyone refused to hear Jesus then God would immediately destroy them. And, for sure, the brothers of thunder would have called down fire to destroy the village that rejected Jesus. But Jesus restrained them and rebuked them saying, "You don't know what spirit is controlling you. It is certainly not the spirit of God." And, yet, we know that in the judgment they will be destroyed. A sure promise which we can bank on, but reserved for a future date. So I guess this is just a gentle rebuke to ask you to stay with me here on earth a little longer until the proper time.
Also, notice this passage from Acts 3:20,21 "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."
The point I am emphasizing here is that Jesus must remain in heaven until the restitution of all things which God's prophets have spoken would come to pass. Remembering this order of things can also help us to remember not to exclude things from prophecy because they don't fit our beliefs. There are so many things we cannot possibly understand in scripture without God's help. This should not discourage us but should encourage us to acknowledge our ignorance and plead for God's help.
(Okay, let me get back to responding to your post.)
Some believe that the rewards are received at the time of death. This has caused a lot of error to be generated. First, you need an active hell fire for the wicked. Second, you need a huge bosom for Abraham to comfort those who were neglected while on earth. But while I decry the non-sense of those errors I must not myself be caught in error that contradicts scripture. So I have to be careful not to place importance of one writer above another because all of scripture is inspired by God. God is the true Author. If I favor Paul over Peter then I am confessing that I don't believe that God was the Author, but man. So I can't place Paul and Peter at odds with each other. Instead I have to reconcile the differences or come back later when I know more.
So in our case, you say that the wicked burn when Christ comes to redeem the saints, and I say that when Christ comes to redeem the saints the wicked are slain a
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