posted
Paul's listing of ministry gifts has been used to create the "professional clergy" idea, and is continuing in many ways in the simple church movement. "Who are the elders?"
But I recently noticed, that if you pull out Paul's parenthetical OT reference in Ephesians 4 it reads as if "each one" is an "apostle, prophet, evangelist or pastor teacher".
Here's the whole thing:
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a] says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."[b] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Here it is with the explanation removed:
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Can it be that every believer should be functioning as "preparers" of the body of Christ? That this is a "one another" verse - as in "building others up according to their need"?
That would fit better with the "royal priesthood" idea. It would also reinforce the idea that every "man of peace" should be held to the eldership standards, rather than seeing eldership as an elite status.
Then, every believer would not be asking, "Am I called to serve God's people as a maturer" but rather, "How can I serve God's people as a maturer?". And we'd would look at each person for which "grace/s" they have instead of "if".
posted
Sorry for hi-jacking but I have question on Eph 4:8 "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men". I supposed it's from Psalm 68:18. However, Psalm 68:18 has "he has received gifts for men", not "gave gifts to men". Why? Yes, I have asked the same question many times, many places before - not sure if I have ever asked here in this forum though.
Interesting question. Hope this is a quick detour. I did a little research and the Hebrew words are as follows and can be translated as shown under each word.
code:
LAQACH MATTANAH ADAM ------------- ------------- ------------- to take gift man get mankind fetch lay hold of seize receive acquire buy bring marry take a wife snatch take away
So there are many ways this could be translated. But the tense is qal/perfect so perhaps the best translations are as follows:
1) to take, take in the hand 2) to take and carry along 3) to take from, take out of, take, carry away, take away 4) to take to or for a person, procure, get, take possession of, select, choose, take in marriage, receive, accept 5) to take up or upon, put upon 6) to fetch 7) to take, lead, conduct 8) to take, capture, seize 9) to take, carry off 10) to take (vengeance)
To me it seems that in the NT Paul is interpreting Psalm 68:18 as item #4--to take for a person. So then if Christ received gifts on behalf of mankind it stands to reason that He would deliver them to His church. Wouldn't this understanding agree with Ephesians 4:8? We might also say he accepted the gifts as a man, our brother, the last Adam--being that He is the only one worthy to receive any gifts by virtue of His perfect obedience to God's law.
It's interesting to note that the language employed in Eph 4:8 suggests that these gifts given to men were bestowed as wages. One could say that we have already been paid for our labors by the blood of Jesus.
It's late. Maybe someone will run with this, opening a new thread to expound on it.
posted
C, I have seen this alleged discrepancy noted before and wondered about it, too. I've always been intrigued by the way scriptures are quoted in the scripture, itself. Sometimes, it's not a very literal quotation.
In a matter of speaking, the spoils of war are both given and received. After the Revolutionary War, the new Amercian government gave away huge tracts of land to many of the top military officers. They gave what they had just received. That may not be the picture here, I admit.
"... He led captivity captive." Now that's a keen way to put things, is it not?
posted
I've always thought that when it says He led captivity captive, that means that which held us captive He took captive. He opened the prison doors for us and set us free, He released the oppressed. Jesus took the things that held us captive, captive. He ascended on high (to His Father) after His death and resurrection, taking our captivity captive with Him in His train (I can just see Him floating up in a garment with a large train following Him), and then gave gifts to men. Those gifts that He gave to men are the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we function in today. He took the captivity and left the gifts in their place.
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