John2 argues that "there are and always has been righteous ones in the Earth" and he bases this premise on the fact that in scripture certain men have been called righteous-- such as Job, Noah, etc. Even Jesus called Abel righteous. (Matt 23:35).
But I contend that no man is righteous nor has any man ever been righteous but rather God counts them righteous because of faith. Here are some facts from scripture.
What does God think of human "righteousness"? What did Isaiah write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags
Can they ever do anything good?
Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Yet, God has called some men righteous. How can God do so if no man is righteous?
Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
How does God make man righteous?
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
To reiterate, what is our condition apart from Christ? If not righteousness then what?
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
The Bible is very clear that unless God had sought after man to redeem him from evil man would have never looked for it on his own.
Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
So then, when God calls a person righteous it is because God counts them righteous because of their belief and trust in God. It is faith that enables a person to follow God. Apart from the righteousness imparted and imputed by God man has no ability or desire to be righteous. As a matter of fact, not only is the natural man unable to be righteous, he shuns it. He is naturally at war with God. He does not obey God's law, in fact, he can't.
Romans 8:7
The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
All the righteous attributes of character dwell in Christ and if a man receives Christ he may partake of his Divine nature. It is by this means only that a man may be counted righteous.
2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
So when God called Abel righteous it was because by faith Abel offered to God an acceptable sacrifice. It was the sacrifice of innocent blood that was required for the symbolic representation of the Lamb of God who would give His innocent blood for our transgression. Cain did not obey God in this matter.
Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
Cain and Abel learned the acceptable sacrifice from their father Adam who had been instructed by God. Abel believed God and obeyed while Cain thought to worship God in a manner that was not strickly according to God's plan. Thus, Abel was considered righteous because he believed and obeyed.
Galatian 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
posted
It is important to note that the men of the OT were not born from above and did not partake of the divine nature which is in Christ. We have a big advantage over them. Yet, God is well pleased with such tiny efforts as done by the good samaritan, who without much thought helped his would-be enemy as he would his own family. Jesus used him as an example of the child-like quality of seeing others as we see ourselves. This is possible because of an innate righteousness that is ours through a creation in His own image...apart from the new and better way in Christ through a spiritual re-birth. The question then is why we are not exhibiting the greater works that Jesus Himself promised we would do. We need not destroy righteousness in order to defend our own works. We should rather surrender to the Lord and allow the holiness of God in Christ to flow out of us. Woe to them who judge others for their lack. God decides who gets what. Don't underestimate the mercy of God. I have never met anyone who has had even a fraction of the power of forgiveness and mercy that our Lord possesses. All praise to His name.
This is simply commentary. Do you have any scriptural proof. My Old Testament calls some men "sons of God" and others sons and daughters of men. The only part that is true is that in the OT men had to have faith in the coming Christ where as today we have faith in the Christ who came. That is the only difference in this respect.
Do you recall Enoch, Elijah, or Moses? The first two were translated without seeing death. Moses was taken to heaven after death. But my point is that God considered them righteous, not because of their works, but because of their faith in Christ.
Another correction. Adam was created in the image of God. But you and I have descended from his genes. We were not created in the image of God but have taken on the sinful nature of Adam. Are you not aware that Scripture makes a huge point in this regard. Jesus is called the second Adam or last Adam and time and again we learn that He came in the likeness of our sinful flesh. This is a mystery to us but it was necessary for two reasons. First, Jesus needed to take on humanity in order to die. Second, He needed to take upon himself our sinful natures so that He could be a compassionate High Priest in that He could sympathize with our temptations and our weakness.
No, John. There is no innate righteousness in man. Righteousness is only of God. He alone is righteous and when we express faith in Him we too can partake of His righteousness. Have you never read that a man must be born again. Why if there is already innate goodness in man? I will tell you why. It is because the old nature is at war with God and is not subject to His law. In fact, it can't be. This is why the old nature must die and we must be born from above. If it were as you say then we could simply work on improving the hidden innateness that lies within us. But, alas, we must put new wine into new wineskins.
posted
The new wineskins are the new hearts that receive the gospel and bear eternal fruit. This is a super-natural work of God according to the divine nature of God imparted to us by the Holy Spirit. The fruit thereof is unto holiness. We are to add to this new condition, the old condition of righteousness as Peter says in 2 Pet. to add to our faith...righteousness otherwise we are blind and cannot see afar off. Agape is the hallmark of righteousness...to love our brothers as we love ourselves. Jonathan loved David as his own soul. That, my brother is AGAPE. Jonathan was not a Christian.
Now we go back in time to observe righteousness according to the law. How could the Ninevites repent when Jonah proclaimed their doom if not for their own consciences? Why does Jesus use an unregenerate Samaritan to explain love of our neighbor? Why is the least in the kingdom greater than John the Baptist who is counted by Jesus as the greatest among the righteous? Why did Jesus not call the righteous to repentence? Why does Peter say that the righteous are scarcely saved yet Paul says we should go after an abundant entrance to the kingdom? How could men before Jesus' time put their faith in Christ? There was no new nature until the death and resurrection of king Messiah. Before that there was only the good behaviour that was possible through obedience to the Torah and to the innate conscience that leads one to righteousness. David loved God's Torah not the gospel. He says that God will judge him according to his own righteousness. Ps. 18: 20 and 24 David walked by the statutes and instructions of the Torah...in his own strength...and God backs him up. Why is this so hard to understand? As Paul says in Rom. 2:26, 27...
"Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law"
See, it is by nature. Hospitality is known among many peoples without ever having heard the gospel. My brother, you are confusing the 2 standards of the bible...our righteousness with it's lack and God's righteousness with it's fulness. However, even our lowly righteousness can bring pleasure to God, if we keep to a child-like state. Otherwise, even a righteousness from God won't help you! As in...I never knew you.In the Lord both righteousness and holiness (His righteousness) are required. Saints possess both.
posted
John, can you explain these two items in further detail?
"We are to add to this new condition, the old condition of righteousness"
This almost sounds like you are saying we must improve the old man.
"Jonathan was not a Christian."
Why not? The word Christian means Christ-like. If Jonathan had agape love for David then he certainly demonstrated Christ-like qualities. And consider that Isaac was a type of Christ, as was Moses, and Sampson, etc. You do realize that Christ has existed forever as part of the Godhead, right?
This may get a bit tedious but I will try to address each of your points.
The fact that the Ninevites repented proves that they believed in the God of Jonah. Many people had heard of the Israelites and how their God had worked for them. Take the story of Rahab. She knew enough to know that Jericho would be destroyed. So she hid the spies and bartered with them for her life. Word gets around. Faith was not limited to the Jews alone but anyone that would hear. They did not repent because they were righteous but because they feared God.
Regarding John the Baptist being lessor than the least. Remember in another place Jesus said that his disciples would do greater works than he? How could this be. In the case of John, he was not privileged to spend time with Christ as the disciples did nor to witness his mighty works. He was not privileged to more fully comprehend the kingdom of God through a personal relationship with Christ. In this sense, those who have come to know Christ through his life were greater than even John the baptist. As the Apostle John wrote, "that which we have seen and handled of the word of life-- this we declare unto you." The Baptist was privileged to baptize Jesus but did not spend time with him as did the disciples. He could not know him at intimately as the disciples.
Regarding the righteous scarcely being saved. It is the greatest of God's miracles when a heart is converted. The battle is fierce and few men respond to the love of God and accept salvation. It is indeed scarce. But once a man places his full confidence in Christ he has the abundant assurance that Jesus is able to save him.
Regarding men putting their faith in Christ before Jesus' time. The coming of the Messiah was the grandest prophecy ever told and everyone looked forward to that event with great anticipation. The whole of the Jewish economy was a lesson book to teach them the plan of salvation-- how the innocent Lamb of God would come to die for their sins. Christ has existed from eternity. He was set to be slain before the world's foundations were laid. This plan was revealed to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Even Moses, we are told by Jesus, saw Christ's day. And Abraham certainly saw it as well when he was instructed to sacrifice Isaac. Why would you ask this question?
Regarding the new birth. How could David repent "Create in me a clean heart, O Lord, and renew a right spirit within me" had he no concept of what he was saying? And, there never was or has been a single person who has lived up to the requirement of the law by works. Not one person will be in heaven who can claim their own righteousness. One man tried to come to the feast without the spotless robe and he was bound and thrown into darkness.
I don't know how you can say that David did not know and love the gospel. Obviously you have read the Psalms. You referred to Psalm 18. All of Psalm 18 talks not only about David being judged according to his righteousness but also that God is his Rock, his strength, his buckler, his high tower. He humbles himself and flees to God for strength and God gives him strength and makes his way perfect (v32). Brother, this is the Gospel, is it not? This is a childlike trust in God's salvation.
Now we come to Romans 2:26, 27. Just prior to this Paul gives the context to this remark. He says in verse 14-15, "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts." This passage is making a distinction between the works of the law and faith in Christ. The Jews who boasted of keeping the law were breaking it while the Gentiles who professed faith in Christ were keeping the law even though they were not living by the law according to the Jews. It is by faith and not by works that the "uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law." At the same time, the Jews, who were seeking the righteousness of the law by works, were not fulfilling the law. This is another instance of the contrast between faith and works. No one will ever enter heaven to boast that they earned their way by their own righteousness. This is because they have none apart from "the Lord [who is] our Righteousness."
Yes, hospitality is known among "gentiles" even to a greater degree than among Christians. But some of these are cultural differences. Yet, though the gospel is not preached to them they know God through nature.
Psalm 19
1 ¶ The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.
Romans 1 19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. {in them: or, to them} 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Then you wrote, "even our lowly righteousness can bring pleasure to God, if we keep to a child-like state." You can only be talking about faith in Christ here for as it is written, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)
And, brother, if you have righteousness from God you will have a child-like faith. Not sure what you really meant when you stated, "Otherwise, even a righteousness from God won't help you!"
Well, I've tried to answer each of your points. Let's study one or two in more detail, ok? It will keep our posts shorter and thus more comprehensible. Ok?
We can hopefully eliminate some of the problems by drawing a distinction of what is exclusively Christian and what is not. To experience Christ, the old nature must be brought down by the work of the cross so that the divine nature, present through a new birth according to the Spirit, takes over. No one in the OT was born from above. No one was Christian or Christ-like in any way. A type of Christ is not the same as Christ-like. David was a great sinner. (although he was also righteous!) He was a type of Christ although he was not sinless as Christ. The law was the only way forward. Grace from God through Christ was still in the future.
1. This grace was not available in the OT. The NT was only prophesied about in the OT. As in...the days are coming etc... So let's not attribute NT grace and power with the OT. Remember that holiness was still temple holiness at this time. If we can't agree that The OT was the old wine in old wine skins, then we won't be able to proceed any further.
We need to agree with scripture regardless of agreement with others, right? The fullness of the gospel did not come until Christ and so the fullness of grace was not revealed either. Yet, for sinners to live on this planet testifies to the grace of God even before the death of Christ. Remember, Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. So in truth, atonement was already made.
The "Them" in this passage refers to the Israelites who spent 40 years in the wilderness. The gospel was preached unto them.
Hebrews 4:2
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
And again,
1 Peter 1
10 ¶ Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
No, I cannot agree that the OT was the old wine in old wine skins because Jesus taught the two disciples the gospel about the Christ using the OT. Remember the road to Emmaus?
Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
If this means we cannot continue then I am sorry. Though we are to have faith as a child we are not to act like children. Not knowing exactly how you meant your summary words I must say it sounds a bit childish to me. Kinda like, "if you don't play my way then I am taking my toys and going home."
Sorry, John. But it does sound like you are stomping your feet. I hope my disagreement didn't make you angry with me. Please explain your closing remarks.
We need to agree with scripture regardless of agreement with others, right? The fullness of the gospel did not come until Christ and so the fullness of grace was not revealed either. Yet, for sinners to live on this planet testifies to the grace of God even before the death of Christ. Remember, Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. So in truth, atonement was already made.
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I don't remember Christ being slain before the foundation of the world. Where do you get this? Yom kippour was the day that a ram was sacrificed for all the people of Israel. This is the Old way under Mosaic law. It is a TYPE or foreshadowing of what Jesus would accomplish once for all. You are trying to fit scriptures into your theory and not understanding the meaning of the text.
---------------------------------- The "Them" in this passage refers to the Israelites who spent 40 years in the wilderness. The gospel was preached unto them.
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Who preached the gospel to them? The kingdom of God was at hand? King Messiah had arrived? Wow. Way off bro.
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Hebrews 4:2
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
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Remember that Hebrews was written about 100 years after the ministry of Jesus Christ. The people then did not believe the gospel, just as many in the time of this writing also did not receive it, for lack of faith.
---------------------------------------------- And again,
1 Peter 1
10 ¶ Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
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As I said to you...these things were being prophesied about, not accomplished. If I prophesy that the world will end in 20 years, you won't know if I'm wrong until the 20 years has passed. Prophesy is for the future.
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No, I cannot agree that the OT was the old wine in old wine skins because Jesus taught the two disciples the gospel about the Christ using the OT. Remember the road to Emmaus?
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More confusion! Jesus was proving from the PROPHECIES what must take place. Remember there was no NT writings at this point. The only scriptures were the OT. I have no trouble with the OT prophecies; they are fulfilled in the NT times. That is was Jesus was pointing out to them.
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Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
---------- Again this is a pointing out of all the messianic verses concerning the future coming of Messiah. Is. 53 and Ps. 22 are known universally as messianic prophetic chapters, for example. The prophecies were not accomplished yet at that time.
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If this means we cannot continue then I am sorry. Though we are to have faith as a child we are not to act like children. Not knowing exactly how you meant your summary words I must say it sounds a bit childish to me. Kinda like, "if you don't play my way then I am taking my toys and going home."
Sorry, John. But it does sound like you are stomping your feet. I hope my disagreement didn't make you angry with me. Please explain your closing remarks.
Jeff
That's up to you. How could you read that into what I wrote?...hmmm...are you sure you are okay with this type of discussion? ...If I say let's start with that, is not the end of some thing but the beginning of something. Actually what I meant was that we must form a basis for our discussion otherwise we are not going to hear each other or understand the arguments that are built from them. I enjoy these type of discussions. Perhaps you are misreading my post.
We must agree that the OT is the old wine and the unregenerate heart is the old wineskin..otherwise we must re-invent everything that Jesus taught about what is new about the new and living way. Behold all things have become new! A new creation in Christ. These pertain to the New wine and the quickened spirit, the new wineskin that is able to receive of the divine nature. This is so basic and fundamental as it must be a given. Do you really need hundreds of verses to back up the newness which is in Christ?
But I think we have found the root cause for our mis-communication. The Gospel itself! Actually could you define what the gospel is?
posted
Thanks John for clearing up your summary remarks. I can see now that I was getting confused by the "If...then" construction. We'll keep it simple until our gears get meshed and we are fully engaged.
The Gospel:
(After several attempts to condense it down into a nutshell I ended up with something very close to John 3:16. So why not use its beautifully constructed language.) For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Wineskins:
I believe, without having scripture to confirm this, that this saying represented the Phariseeism that permeated the era. Jesus could not impart his truth to the Jewish leaders because of this so he sought out new vessels which could/would receive his teachings. Thus he bypassed those in high position and sought out lowly fishermen of Galilee. Without scripture to support our position I don't think we can teach or assume anything more.
John, can I ask you a question before we continue. What is our goal? I contend that the Bible plainly teaches that apart from Christ man has no righteousness but that righteousness dwells only with God. If you were to concede that this is truth what vital point of faith would be compromised? My goal is to debase man's worth so that he turns to Christ as his only source of Righteousness. What is your goal?
My goal is to restore righteousness in both its dimensions to the church. In modern times, we have confused the two so that neither standard is met. We must play by the rules, so to speak. Each, operates according to it's own law. So when we break the law, we suffer the consequences. Look at the state of the church today, and see the results of this confusion. False teaching has given the enemy a football stadium sized entrance into the church. This has destroyed true fellowship in the Spirit. People don't even know what this type of fellowship is anymore. Mercy and truth are consequently confused as misused. God is not well pleased with the situation such as it is.
The points I have been making are entirely biblical. I could cite scriptures until we drop from exhaustion...or we could explore more deeply one at a time. Some hold that wineskins are ways to meet...a la Frank Viola. But taking things that Jesus said and using them for a purpose that is out of the biblical context is...well misleading. What you said about the Pharisees was covered by the leaven statement...beware the leaven of the Pharisees. But the old and new wineskins is not relating to the pharisees. They do not represent that which is good at all. You would have to think that Jesus was commending the pharisees for just being passé. But Jesus condemned the Pharisees because they weren't even obeying Moses. They weren't even being righteous in themselves. You can't see this because you don't yet understand righteousness.
Old and New have to do with the covenants and the type of heart that each requires. I could cite many scriptures to show that. The heart is the wineskin. The new covenant is inscribed on the heart. It takes a new heart to contain the truth of the new covenant. Why can't you, as a believer, see this? To me this is scary, and shows how well the enemy has done his job. Take a look at my previous posts and give it a chance to sink in.
Sorry I am so slow to learn. I can feel the frustration in your words.
quote: You can't see this because you don't yet understand righteousness.
and, again,
quote: Why can't you, as a believer, see this? To me this is scary, and shows how well the enemy has done his job.
But you haven't given me enough scripture to see your position. Not in light of the scripture I cited stating the true nature of man's righteousness-- which turns out not to be righteousness at all. Nor can I see the virtue in your goal sense you have not solidly established your premise.
Let's back up to try to help me understand the righteousness of man apart from faith in God. The scripture is not of any private interpretation so if what you are saying is true then I should also see it.
I agree with this statement about the condition of man... Man was originally endowed with noble powers and a well-balanced mind. He was perfect in his being, and in harmony with God. His thoughts were pure, his aims holy. But through disobedience, his powers were perverted, and selfishness took the place of love. His nature became so weakened through transgression that it was impossible for him, in his own strength, to resist the power of evil. He was made captive by Satan, and would have remained so forever had not God specially interposed.
Even Paul wrote, "I am carnal, sold under sin," "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
And when we admit that we have no righteousness of our own then we feel our void, or great need and cry out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
To my mind you need to provide scripture that will stand as evidence against the scripture I have already provided.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Now I know that God called some men righteous but not because of themselves but because of their faith in God.
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
When Adam sinned he perverted his own character. It then became impossible for Adam to pass own to his prodigy a perfect character. What he passed on was a sinful nature. Our natural birth was of Adam, a sinful man. It was not in the image of God. But we can be reborn of the spirit in the image of God by faith in Christ.
John, perhaps you stumble at some hard to understand scriptures such as Luke 5:32-- "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Jesus isn't saying that some are already righteous enough and don't need his salvation. No, not when we know that no man will be able to boast of his own works. That is not what Jesus is saying at all. What Jesus is saying is that his message is only for those who feel their need of a Savior. The self-righteous do not feel a need. But Jesus doesn't arbitrarily exclude the self-righteous. They exclude themselves because they feel rich and in need of nothing. Therefore, they ask for, and seek, nothing and they find nothing.
The verse does not prove that some men are righteous enough without a Savior, it simply proves that some men consider themselves above needing help. They are not righteous in God's eyes, but in their own eyes. This was the case of the Pharisee.
Your brother in Christ,
Jeff
BTW, here is that verse about Jesus being slain before the world was created.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
We know that Christ actually died some 4000 years after creation week. However, faith is such that when God establishes something it is as good as done. What this verse actually says is that before the world was created it was decided that Jesus would come and give his life for fallen man. It doesn't actually mean that the crucifixion actually occurred before.
But the point of citing this verse was to demonstrate that the plan of salvation was laid ahead of time and the same atonement was provided for every man. Some looked forward to the time, we look back on it. The whole Jewish economy pointed to the Lamb of God. The earthly sanctuary was a lesson book to teach the Hebrews about the plan of salvation-- how the innocent Lamb of God would spill his blood for their sins. They knew, or could know, of the event to come through this earthly service and thereby express faith in the coming Christ.
Surely David spoke from his understanding of this event when he wrote,
And, it is evident from scripture that David understood that Christ was not to remain in the grave but would raise again.
quote: Acts 2
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
posted
John 2, Every so often you add either you yea or nay vote on my topics. It is now my turn to return the favor. JeffL is pounding you with The Bible, and you in turn are only giving him the information you believe to be true. If one considers The Bible an authority, you are not doing so well here.
I understand your frustration with JeffL's position. However, I only think you are frustrated because he disagrees with you. It appears JeffL used the word "confusion" first. "Brother, I hope I haven't confused you more." Then you returned the favor, and used it on him. "I hope that I have helped you in your confusion, Love in Christ". Are you showing your "love in Christ"?
Then later JeffL says, "Sorry, John. But it does sound like you are stomping your feet. I hope my disagreement didn't make you angry with me. Please explain your closing remarks." I'm not sure where that came from, but you (John 2) respond with, "How could you read that into what I wrote?...hmmm...are you sure you are okay with this type of discussion?" As I said, I was wondering where that came from too.
Then you, John 2, later say, "Why can't you, as a believer, see this? To me this is scary, and shows how well the enemy has done his job. Take a look at my previous posts and give it a chance to sink in." which JeffL apparently found to betray your "frustrations" with him. I see this as simply a multi layered personal attack on his spirituality. This attack apparently came, simply because he disagrees with you.
The truth is, JeffL is defending a VERY common belief that he supports clearly with Scripture. However, you claim that you could back up you position with Scripture ad nauseum ...has yet to bear fruit! Why not answer JeffL's questions and assertions by refuting them with Scripture? He has shown you (repeatedly) Scriptures that back up his statements, why not refute him with the facts, if you have any!
Standing outside, and looking in... Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
Sorry about the perceived impatience...it's actually exasperation! But I'm okay with this discussion, really. I value you as a brother.
You said,
--- BTW, here is that verse about Jesus being slain before the world was created.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.----
Your whole theology about righteousness seems to be underpinned by the idea that Jesus pre-died before the foundation of the world. One verse. But it's nothing that a few commas won't fix. Which is more reasonable? ...that the names of those who are in the slain Lamb's book of life (the saints)were written in before the foundation of the world...or that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world? (only to die a second time on earth)
Is it not written that Jesus died ONCE for all? Which theology is biblical I ask you? Slain, in the above verse is an adjective, and not a verb. In order to prove that slain here is a verb, you would have to have other scriptures to back it up. The bible interprets itself.
Here is the New American Standard version of the same verse,
"And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."
This is a better rendering, methinks...it actually makes sense! It also follows the biblical narrative. Are you willing to change your viewpoint on this?
posted
Hi Matthew, glad you are looking in. I think we are still boiling down the issue to it's very roots...and we may have hit pay dirt. I get overwhelmed at times...especially when I'm in a hurry... as I don't have the time to do an exhaustive study. There's just so much to cover. Chalk it up to laziness on my part. Jeff does do his homework, does he not? I will try to find the time to do a better and more thorough job in the future. I value all my on-line brethren, on this and another site I'm on. Thanks for the input Matthew!
Maran atha,
John
PS Jeff...I have already left you a response above this post. C.U.
I appreciate your kind tone even in the face of controversy. And, I too value your input as a brother in Christ. So since you are having time issues I will allow you to make allusions to scriptural references and I will attempt to fill in the blanks for you to help you out. I would like to understand what you are saying to see if there is any merit to it.
But at the same time, do not miss my main point. I think you have because you responded with this statement: "Your whole theology about righteousness seems to be underpinned by the idea that Jesus pre-died before the foundation of the world."
As I stated in the same post where this verse was quoted, I do not believe that Jesus died before the foundation of the world. I believe that Jesus was set aside to die before the world was created. This is how I interpret the verse. In other words, when God says something will happen it does. Or, in modern English, "it's as good as done."
So then, the main underpinning of my whole theology about righteousness [by faith] could be said to be that even Adam and Eve knew that Christ would come and die because of their sin. Thus, they had the gospel preached to them by none other than Christ himself in the words to the serpent. (Ge 3:15) "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
The verse about Christ being slain was meant only to support what I had already presented as evidence.
Jeff
BTW, I think the KJV interprets the verse correctly whereas some modern translations seem to support the Calvinist idea of Election and Predestination. What do you think? A check of the interlinear Greek seems to support the KJV translation. Check me out, Matthew.
We may just have to leave it all to the Lord. I find that different brothers hold to different doctrines and perceptions. Yet all may find favour with God, each in a unique way. In the end, only God is right, anyway. It all depends on what your doctrine is doing for you. If you are at peace and always growing in love with the Lord and with the brethren, as I say, your doctrine is serving you well. For example, if you believe that Jonathan loved David because he was born from above, or born again, then so be it. It remains that we should do at least the same. In this way, we can urge each other on to good works!
I agree that God foreknew of the sacrifice of His Son. All of scripture does point to Messiah in some way. Let every man be convinced as the Lord leads him as to the application of this understanding. All are saved only by the blood of Christ, whether one sees the merits of both kinds of righteousness or not. After all, if we are to be as children...it is more important to do what is right than to be able to explain what we did. I think that on this we may entirely agree...at least I hope so!
You should not concede so easily. It makes you appear careless. I find many people today who say, "It matters not what one believes as long as they believe in the Lord." But of truth Jesus says, "I am the Truth." If I agree that it matters not what one believes then am I not saying that I neither know the Truth nor value Him?
posted
I think it's about wisdom. If a brother is not in grievous error, then perhaps he needs to believe what he does at the time. God's ways are above man's ways. He is more wise than you or I. Perhaps one day, we may take up this line of argument again. If I thought that it was necessary for you to see differently, I would pray about it. I would also try to convince you, of course. But, it isn't right to follow what man says, anyway. God doesn't rely on human arguments. If you do not see what I am saying, then no argument on earth will make you see differently. I think you have many good qualities, Jeff, and I don't feel it right that I hammer you with things that aren't bringing you edification. I don't care about being right...what matters is that we are edified into a closer walk in Christ. Sometimes you have to stop, and rest. That is what Sabbath is all about. It means to stop! Perhaps if we were together in person.....
posted
Yes, John. It is all about edification. You have been very gracious and kind. Hopefully one day I will grow to where I can understand righteousness and holiness more fully. I have tried to keep you engaged but not anger you and have succeeded at neither. Join in when you can.
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