quote:Jesus told us, "If you love me, you will obey what I command" not "if you love me, you will embrace the right doctrine". That is a critical distinction.
I wanted to share another perspective.
To love Jesus means to love Righteousness and Truth. Can a person love God and not know him? I suppose a person could create a god that was pleasing to them and in that case they could love their own god. But in order to love the One True God we do necessarily need to embrace right doctrine. Doctrine is, after all, teachings. And in the context it is teachings about Christ. So there really isn't a critical distinction between keeping God's commandments and embracing right doctrine. God's commandments reveal his character and his will. And, as the Psalmist writes, "All thy commandments are truth." We know that Jesus is Light, Truth, and Righteousness. So to love him is to love all of his qualities, his characteristics. Truth is a person, the person Jesus Christ. And he never changes. As you read the OT, the laws, the judgments, the prophecies, the relationship between God and man, remember this one thing: "The Word was made flesh." Jesus is the embodiment of the scriptures. Moses told the Hebrews, 'I set before you life and death, blessings and curses.' Later, John would write, 'That which was from the beginning, which we have heard... we have handled of the Word of Life.' And, again, "In Him was Life." Jesus was rasied from the dead because the grave could not hold him. His righteous life is life to us. What was commanded of the Hebrews, Jesus fulfilled. This divine nature he imparts to us through exceeding great and precious promises.
posted
BTW, just wanted to make sure I didn't misconstrue things. I spoke of the divine nature which God desires to impart to us through exceeding great and precious promises. I did not intend to give the impression that Christ used his divinity to overcome this world. There were times when his divinity flashed through him but only by the Father's permission.
Though Christ was fully Divine, he was fully human. This is a mystery to the human mind. We cannot resolve it with our simple reasoning and so we must receive it by faith in the word of God. Christ lived in our humanity and learned the price of obedience to the human nature through the things he suffered. He was tempted in all points as we are, yet he did no sin. He depended upon his Father to tell him what to do and he obeyed his Father's command. As the second Adam, he overcame where the first Adam failed. We may now exchange our natural birth of the 1st Adam, who imparted to us a sinful nature, for a spiritual birth of the 2nd Adam, who imparts to us his divine nature so that we might be victorious. We give up a sinful nature which is easily overcome by temptation for a spiritual nature which overcomes.
One thought is that we are tempted to rely on our human nature rather than God, while Jesus was tempted to use his divinity and thereby thwart the plan of salvation. We have access to the same resource that Christ depended upon when he walked this earth as a man. That access is through faith alone, not human struggles to better one's self. But how shall they believe if they do not hear.
Please don't be offended if my tone sounds condescending. I don't consider you slow. But I do understand that we are individuals with different backgrounds and thus various perspectives. When I share mine I try to do so in simple language-- though I don't have a huge volcabulary to draw from anyway. Plus, this is not written for you alone.
The fact that you mentioned a critical distinction between loving God and keeping his commandments, and loving God and embracing right doctrine made me think, "is that true?" After thinking about it for a while I decided that to love God means that we also love, or embrace, right doctrine. God's commandments are but a reflection of his character and thus his will for us. The fact that he commands us to keep his commandments if we love him is a doctrine, a teaching, of Christ.
Maybe I am preaching to the choir but if I don't say it how will you judge if I know it? Then how will you help me understand it correctly if I am wrong?
quote:Jeff L said: To love Jesus means to love Righteousness and Truth. Can a person love God and not know him? *snip* But in order to love the One True God we do necessarily need to embrace right doctrine. Doctrine is, after all, teachings. And in the context it is teachings about Christ. So there really isn't a critical distinction between keeping God's commandments and embracing right doctrine.
Hey Laurie Ann and Jeff L, I think we make things way too complicated. First of all, Jeff L, there is a huge difference between knowing someone, and knowing about someone. Why should we have such a love for “doctrine”? It would appear (from just a bit of study), that Jesus Himself had a pretty simple list of “precepts” for us to follow. I was only able to find two, one of which became The Qualifier for folks knowing that we are the Out Called of Christ. This is from The Greek Interlinear:
Matthew 22:35-40 35 And one lawyer (out of them) inquired, trying Him. 36 “Teacher, which precept [is] great in The Law?” 37 The yet, He said to him. “You shall be loving The Master, The God of you. [Love Him] in your whole heart, your whole soul, and in your whole comprehension. 38 This is The Great and Foremost Precept! 39 Second, and yet like to Her is this, you shall be loving your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two precepts, the whole Law is hanging, and [so are] the prophets.”
John 15:14-17 14 “You are fond ones of Me, if ever you may be doing which I am directing to you. 15 I'm not still terming you slaves. The slave has not perceived that any is doing of him. The Master I have yet declared [to] you, fond ones. I made known to you, everything I hear beside The Father of Me. 16 You choose not Me, but I choose you! Also, I place you that you may be going and carrying fruit, and your fruit may be remaining. [This is] so that whatever any should be requesting The Father, in The Name of Me, He may be giving to you. 17 These I am directing to you, that you may be loving one another.”
Those were the only places in The New Testament where Jesus directly gave any “commandments”. This is very telling, and makes all “doctrine” quite simple. I therefore stipulate, that everything that doesn't fall under this one commandment (that is to love), is dogma. The proof (I cut and paste this from the KJV) I offer up as fact is:
James 2:8 8 If ye fulfill The Royal Law according to The Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well.
Acts 15:28-29 28 For it seemed good to The Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Please note here that “meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled” were all things that would stumble Jews at that time, so this clearly fits under love. (See also Romans 14:21 “It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak.”)
Having said all of that, I just have one question... and I guess it is for you, Jeff L. What are the “important doctrines” that we should be doing, and can you list them?
I think my point was that we cannot do until we know. This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. We know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true... This is the true God, and eternal life.
Knowing about someone always precede knowing them. In the case of Jesus, we are usually told about him before we develop a desire to know him.
Yes, I can list many important doctrines. But I will list only a few.
1. Jesus existed before the incarnation 2. Jesus is fully God 3. Jesus was not created 4. Jesus lived as a man in our sinful flesh 5. Jesus was tempted but did no sin 6. Jesus was crucified for our sins 7. Jesus came to save all men 8. Jesus died our death so we might live his life 9. Jesus created all things from nothing 10. Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament law and prophets 11. Jesus ended the sacrificial system when he was slain 12. Jesus is our High Priest forever 13. Jesus is our mediator and pleads for us in heaven 14. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever 15. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, the Light, the Life 16. Jesus did not come the first time to condemn but to save 17. Jesus will come the second time to destroy the works of the Devil 18. Jesus created this world and will destroy it and then recreate it 19. Jesus destroyed the world once by water but will destroy it the second time by fire 20.. Jesus in merciful, pitiful, long-suffering, and a gentleman 21. Jesus endowed man with freedom of choice which he will not violate
And there are some which are more controversial but not in the least less significant. All of the teachings, or doctrines, help us to know the True God. False teachings pervert our understanding of who God is and how he deals with mankind and thus attempts to block true knowledge. Sin and deception has held us captive but the Truth sets us free from the lies. The objective of falsehood is to inflict damage upon our relationship with our Father by representing him in a false light. Gossip, slander, and libel work in a similar manner. We will tell lies about a one person in order turn another against them. In this way we hope to ruin their relationship with the other person so we can have them all to ourselves. This happens in divorce. One parent will belittle the other in order to turn the child against that parent. Those little lies have deep roots which, until the truth is known, build barriers which impact our relationships.
That is why it is so important to know God in truth. We cannot have a correct relationship with him unless we know him in truth. Nor can we worship him in truth if we do not know him. We come to know God through his Son, Jesus Christ. And we come to know Jesus through the scriptures. The Bible writers have left us teachings, or doctrines, about Christ so that we may read and believe in faith. Would you consider the doctrines that I listed as important? Do you believe there are hundreds, even thousands, more? Can you list some you consider important?
Scripture tells us that the entrance of God's word gives light; it gives understanding to the simple. The gospel message is simple but a knowledge of God is as vast as the universe. That will be our theme through-out the ages. We will always be learning about God but we will never come to the place where we have learned everything. Think about that for a moment. After living, talking, and walking with Jesus for a million years you will only have scratched the surface of the depth of the knowledge of him. Do you still think the subject is simple? That a person can comprehend it in a brief whimsical moment of professing faith? Think again.
And, again, the gospel message is simple but the human mind is complex. Because of our individuality each person must be approached differently. Sometimes you have obstacles to overcome, prejudice to put down, and bias to modulate.
Yet, again, the gospel message is simple. Jesus spoke of two great commands. The first, to love God supreme. The second, to love our neighbor as our self. We have yet to comprehend all that these two simple precepts entail. We have only begun our journey to understand what they mean and yet we proudly think to ourselves that we know it all.
There are several passages in scripture which help us understand just how vast and far reaching are these two simple precepts. Romans 13 tells us that if we keep the Ten Commandments we fulfill the law. Galatian 5 speaks of the very same truth and ties the two together. Matthew 7:12 tells us that to love our neighbor is the law and the prophets. Jesus clarified this in Matthew 22:40 when he explained that the law and prophets are derived from and are further explanations of the two great commandments.
Still think it so simple? The gospel is not for simple-minded people. Christians are not feeble-minded lunatics who need a crutch just to deal with life. The gospel message is rich, intelligent, and is so complex that humans will never fully understand it in a million years. Yet, the gospel is such that it will find entrance into a simple mind and will make that person wise.
I dare say that the most foolish Christian who trusts wholly on Christ for salvation is wiser the the most brilliant secular mind who rejects Christ. This is wisdom: to choose life above death. And this life is only in Jesus Christ.
posted
I guess then the question is... How complex of a knowledge is needed? I submit that even a small child can understand all they need to know to love Christ, and to love their neighbors.
I guess the complexity issue, for example, can be demonstrated here using creation, or your number 9. (Jesus created all things from nothing.)
I have debated evolution internationally on forums. I never lost, because I understood not only Darwin's theory, but its problems. However, I don't think I need tremendous knowledge to simply believe the story of creation. In fact, your mind can get in the way of your faith, and become prideful.
This takes me back to my statement, "there is a huge difference between knowing someone, and knowing about someone." All of my knowledge allowed me the ability to "smoke" a lot of softmoric arguments, but did nothing to advance The Kingdom.
However, there is some vague notion somewhere that love never fails ...as for knowledge, well? 1 Cor. 13:8 Charity (love in action) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
The Greek Interlinear, "...knowledge, it shall be being discarded."
The truth is, when I first met my wife, I wanted to get to know all about her. Now, that has been discarded (so to speak) and we love each other for who we are together, as one... in true fellowship.
quote: The truth is, when I first met my wife, I wanted to get to know all about her. Now, that has been discarded (so to speak) and we love each other for who we are together, as one... in true fellowship.
Matthew, what was discarded, "so to speak"? Did your desire to know more about her cease? Did you discard all that you had previously learned about her? Are you saying the more you got to know her the less you wanted to know about her? Or, the more you loved her the more you discarded what you learned about her? That doesn't make sense!
Do you believe that when we get to heaven all of our knowledge will be discarded? Do you think we will suddenly forget everything we have learned about Christ? Can a person love someone if they don't know anything about them? Don't we love God because we know that he loved us first? Doesn't our knowledge inform our faith?
There is a huge difference between simply knowing about someone and personally knowing them. That is true. But that doesn't mean we discard everything we know about Christ so that we might become intimately familiar with him. We are not disputing the fact that it is not the same to merely know about someone as it is to know them personally. What I am saying is that it is very important to embrace correct knowledge about God in order to know him in truth, or better, to even know the True God.
quote:Jeff L said: Matthew, what was discarded... That doesn't make sense!
Let me present it to you this way. When I tell folks about my wife, I never say things like, "My wife's favorite color is red" unless directly asked such silly things. I mean, that's a fact and all, but it's just head knowledge. I tell folks things like how tender she is, how she is a wonderful wife and mother, how we enjoy this or that together, and so on...
When I first got to know my wife, understanding that red was her favorite color allowed me the intellectual ability to pick a gift based on that fact. This is good. However, the even better thing is to know her in a personal way that transcends just knowing a bunch of facts. The knowledge, it has been discarded for something much better!!! Is this helping?
quote:What I am saying is that it is very important to embrace correct knowledge about God in order to know him in truth, or better, to even know the True God.
What I'm saying is that knowing about someone should only; 1. Convince you to get to know them in a personal way. 2. Convince you not to get to know them in a personal way.
Here is an example. I once had two Mormons come to visit my home. They were young fellows (although their pocket ID said they were elders ). They told me that they would like to come to visit me for four sessions. Their first was an introduction, and they dropped off "the book of Mormon" for me to "read" ...which is silly, at best. I mean have you ever seen that thing? It's really thick!
I requested a passage or two they could recommend, and then they left. When they returned, I did two things. I presented them with some facts, and then began telling them "what great things The Lord had done for me, and how He had shown compassion on me". They ran (no joke) out of my house, and they never returned. I still feel cheated, they owe me two more sessions!!!
You see, I could have debated "doctrine" with them till dooms day, and they with me... but they didn't understand how to deal with a relationship! They had only been trained on how to refute my religion (read, my head knowledge)!
John did not write that we would be known by our knowledge of true doctrine, but by our love. Love NEVER fails! It's really just that simple!!!
posted
Yes, Matthew. That helps. But the kind of knowledge I am speaking of, the kind of correct doctrine, is that which informs our intelligence that God is worthy of our honor, glory, praise, and worship. Knowing that your wife is tender came after you got to know her personally. But God commends his love to us by telling us about himself through scripture. The lessons in scripture help us see how compassionate he is, how fair, how just, how unchanging, etc. There is nothing trivial in scripture such as a favorite color. All of scripture is given to help us know God in truth.
If you pay close attention to the trend today you will see that less and less importance is being given the the written word of God and more and more importance given to a type of "word a minute" relationship. We follow a leading we "feel" from within and believe to be God speaking to us. Yet, we fail to try the spirits to see if it is of God. Many false spirits have gone out into the world. There is only one true spirit and that spirit will not contradict the word of God. If people do not know the Bibles then it will be easy for them to be led astray by a false spirit. Do you see my point?
posted
First, love commanded is not love. Love must be freely given. However, I do see your point, but my point is that it is simple to live a life pleasing to The Lord.
Hey, what can you do to harm others if you "fulfill The Law and the prophets" by loving The Lord first, and then your neighbor? I just think it's something very simple, that even a child can do!
As far as, "There is nothing trivial in scripture such as a favorite color." ...how about, "Jesus wept."
quote:I said: As far as, "There is nothing trivial in scripture such as a favorite color." ...how about, "Jesus wept."
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I have heard whole sermons on this one little Scripture, when the truth is ...the fact that "Jesus wept" proves nothing outside of what we already know about Him. For example, nowhere in Scripture does it say that Jesus smiled... but we understand that He did. (just a speculation)
The truth is, we complicate things to the nth degree because we want to be able to explain everything! This really help the religious. If they are the only ones that can tell us what was happening in Scriptures, and what to believe... they have us right where they want us... under their control!
Having dived into The Greek Interlinear, I find that all Scripture supports the case that we should be free in Christ, not bound in a church!!! This is a wonderful freedom!
Oh, and one more thing... You are correct in your observation that "the word a minute" is gaining in popularity in many churches. However, from history it would seem that this is just a natural response to the fact that in the past the Scriptures were the "Word of God" to the total exclusion of The Lord still speaking dynamically to His people today. As with any "new" freedom, there will be extremes. The key is to find both truth and balance ...what I have been attempting as of late!
posted
Please allow me to share something else I have discovered about Jesus weeping. I have heard sermons on this also but I didn't always agree with them. Many people think that Jesus wept in harmony with the mourners--for the death of his friend. But this cannot be the case for several reasons.
1. Jesus purposely waited until Lazarus died before he responded. Therefore, why would he weep. 2. Jesus knew he was going to raise Lazarus. That was his reason for delaying. So why would he weep. 3. Jesus did not allow his emotions to rule him. He struggled with them, I am sure, but He lived by faith, ever depedent upon His Father's word.
I believe that Jesus wept because of the hardness of the hearts of the people present. Here was the Resurrection and the Life standing in their midst and they said things like, "If you had only been here." Even Martha said she knew he would rise in the resurrection, but at the last day. But Jesus said, I AM the Resurrection. They claimed to believe and to know he was the Christ but they did not understand yet who he was in truth.
What do you think? Did you find that interesting?
Can I share another concept that I find interesting? You said that love cannot be commanded it must be freely given. And, this is true. However, it is very clear that God does command us to love him and to love our neighbor.
So how do we reconcile this with our limit human wisdom? Love must be freely given, yet God commands us to love him.
Well, the answer lies not in our power but in the power of God. Everything the Lord commands us to do he also works out in us both to desire to do his will and to be able to carry it out. Every command should be seen as a promise. When he says, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself," he is saying that without me you can do nothing but with me you can do all things. When I come to live in your heart then this promise will be fulfilled in you. My love will flow out from you.
And the New Covenant promise is that God will write his laws in our hearts and minds. It is through his love for us that he draws us to him and wins our hearts. So we are never forced but willingly yield to his will. His will becomes the desire of our hearts. This fulfills his promise to us that we shall love him and our neighbor.
So, what do you think? Do you find that a new concept?
posted
That is an interesting speculation, but there is no proof why Jesus wept. Those around Him even speculated; "Then said the Jews, 'Behold how he loved him!'" ...but that was just what they thought. Only Jesus Himself knows why He wept that day, and He chose not to tell us why.
However, the concept that [The Holy Spirit] empowers us to live as Christ wants us to live is not only NOT a new concept to me, but I totally agree!!! ...something about our righteousness through Christ, and all of that.
Be blessed, Matthew
Oh, and one more thing... can you quote that Scripture where The Lord commands us to love Him?
posted
You see, there is no "command" (let's call it a direct order) to love The Lord, as in "You have to love Me!" This is not this kind of law! Your will is not taken from you. As a matter of fact, you can even hate The Lord, and He will not stop you! However, there is the command [or principle], "You have to love Me if...
There is a law that you are not allowed to speed. They are working on technology that can ticket every speeder, and read every license plate. In theory, every violator can be stopped, or forced to obey the law.
God will not stop us from hating or rejecting Him (as you know). There is a consequence for loving Him, and hating Him... but He doesn't force us to love Him. As I said before, love commanded (forced) is not love.
Jesus said, "If you love Me..." He didn't say, "I make you love Me..."
Be blessed ...but only if you want to be blessed, Matthew
quote:"You see, there is no "command" (let's call it a direct order) to love The Lord, as in "You have to love Me!"
I feel we are playing word games here. I don't disagree that God gives us a choice. But, there is a command.
quote: Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
It's difficult to understand sometimes but even though we have the choice we are not able to make it of ourselves. It is only by the power of God that we are drawn to him. We can't fulfill this command but God has promised to write his law in our hearts. Do you believe this? We keep walking forward by faith.
posted
Word games? That is not my purpose! I am talking bondage verses freedom.
Okay, this "command" is one that benefits only the follower thereof. This is like a very wealthy man saying to a woman, "If you love me, and if you will marry me... everything I have is yours." That man does not say, Love me, marry me. The little word if (which denotes freedom of choice) is vitally important!!!
Also note that the loving part comes first. This is very important! Love (coming from the heart of The Lord) is necessary before any thing else is of any benefit. Remember 1 Corinthians 13?
Therefore, my original point is that the “important doctrines” that we should be doing, are loving The Lord, and our neighbor... and then we should be showing it.
posted
Perhaps we are talking about two different things. I am saying that in order to love God we must know him and in order to know God we must know the truth about him. Let me give an example.
My uncle is very rich and lives in a 11,000 sf mansion in the dessert of Arizona. He is well over 6 feet tall with green eyes and wavy blonde hair. He is only a few years my senior and very handsome. He drives a yello Hummer but has a fleet of expensive cars.
Well, now you know something about my uncle. But this information is worthless really. If you really wanted to know my uncle you would want to know his character. Is he kind? Is he generous? How does he treat the poor? Does he like people? Is he approachable?
The first descriptive paragraph about my uncle may help you point him out in a crowd but it really doesn't tell you what he is like. The second paragraph contains the types of truths about him that help you truly know him without really meeting him face to face. Now you don't know everything about my uncle but if he is all of those things in the second paragraph there is certainly enough for you to like.
Nobody loved God before they knew about His love for them. Impossible. Therefore, I conclude that a person must first learn about God before they can love him. "We love him because he first loved us." "God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." These are the types of truths, the important doctrines about God, that help us to know him and thereby love him for who he is.
You see, God says, "You shall love me with all your heart," and then he demonstrates his love for us to draw our hearts away from self and to him. Thus, he fulfills the command in our lives if we but allow the Holy Spirit to do its work.
If we say that a person chooses to love God before they know him then we are teaching salvation by works. We now have a part in our redemption. But if we say that God loved us first and binds our hearts to him through a knowledge of this love then we let the operation of God's love do the work. Then man no longer plays any part other than to not resist. This is the rest that God promises to us.
We rest in his works when we trust him and allow him to work in us. We rest when we cease all human effort which fights against God. We rest when we cast down every imagination which exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of God.
This is my point. This is how I believe. Are we discussing the same thing?
quote:Jeff L said: The second paragraph contains the types of truths about him that help you truly know him without really meeting him face to face.
We are talking about the same thing, but I disagree. Here is my story. My sister knew my wife before I ever met and married her. There is no way I could have loved my wife-to-be just by hearing (or reading) about her from my sister. I met her, liked her personality, fell in love with her more and more as I got to know her in a personal way, and eventually married her (gave my life to her) as her love drew me to her.
See, the truth is, everything you say may be true about your uncle, but I don't even like him (See Acts 2:44-45). I would have to meet him, get to know him personally, and then come to my own conclusions. Scriptures tell us Who has given the gift, and what He is like, but we must build a relationship. The knowledge is already there for us, but not the relationship!
quote:This is my point. This is how I believe. Are we discussing the same thing?
Let's take the "your uncle" example one step further. Let's say he sent me a check for one million dollars. (Jesus doesn't just sit on his, which does me no good.) For some reason, I may decide that I should go and personally thank him. I may be amazed by the gift, awestruck even, but I would not like your uncle until I got to know him personally. We might even eventually become friends, and love each other as such...
But your uncle might just be in the mob... At which point I would have to distance myself from him and question the "gift"!
Biblical example? John 4:39-42 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did. 40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days. 41 And many more believed because of his own word; 42 And ["they" left out by KJV] said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
posted
Ah, but not "through their word alone." What about all of that personal stuff you know about The Lord drawing us? Something about, "No man can come to Me, except The Father which hath sent Me draw him..." comes to mind. You see, this is a very personal thing, not a head knowledge doctrine thing!
Email this page to someone.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
(out of them) inquired, trying Him.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Is this helping?![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Love must be freely given. However, I do see your point, but my point is that it is simple to live a life pleasing to The Lord. 
