posted
The subject of hell just came up at another table here in the Cafe. Jeff Logan brought out some interesting points and I'll forward his posts in just a few minutes and offer an opposing view as time goes by. This is the "Basic Matters" category so I think things will fit here as a more natural place. All truth is related, of course.
An apostle wrote: 2 Cor. 5:11 Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. Jesus said: Matt. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather FEAR him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
From these texts - and there are others, it appears to me that some sort of fear is a real motivating factor.
Personally, I will not ascribe to God what is just or unjust. And, if Hell be a real place of unending torment, how my gratitude to the Lamb of God should SOAR!
posted
(Here are a couple of posts being forwarded to this location, both by Jeff Logan)
The objective of the early priest may have been to follow the injuction of our Lord to teach men to be disciples. But as time past the means of acheiving this goal left off from following the Spirit of Christ and took on a demonic spirit. Unsanctified men saw an opportunity to become like gods. Sacraments were devised as a means of controlling the graces of God. If the church could cause men to believe that God had entrusted her to administer the graces through the sacraments then she could rule the world. This would accomplish her mission as the universal church. And she stood unopposed for some 1260 years until Napolean gave her a deadly wound in 1798 when his general seized her property, overturned her church-state government and set up a civl government in its place, and took Pope Pius captive until his death.
Sacraments are a tool of the church to control the consciences of men through their fear of eternal hell fire. It is very difficult to develop a relationship with Christ when you pray to Mary, confess to a priest, suffer through mass every week, and hear very little truth. In my opinion, the "church" exactly fits the description of a cult. (See http://www.religio.de/cudef.html).
-------------------- Jeff Logan
..................................... Also:
Hello Gary,
I thought I was right on target with the meaning of Col 2:8. My focus was not hell and I did not say I didn't believe in hell. But I did cite the doctrine of hellfire as one example of how the clergy has actually painted a picture of God which has driven men from Him rather than drawing men to Him. They should have focused on the cross instead of the false teaching that the soul of man is immortal. The Bible says that only God is immortal. It also teaches that "this corruptible must put on incorruption," and "this mortal must put on immortality." This I used as an example of how far from the truth the clergy has drifted. It was not meant to start a debate on whether or not hell exists. I was asking whether we should also be questioning what they have taught us about God as well as questioning the validity of the IC with its hierarchy.
I know you believe in eternally burning hell fire and that the wicked will burn eternally and we can go and view them in their agony--all under the approving eye of God. This is atrocious. If someone said something about my earthly father I would be compelled to speak up. Well, why shouldn't I speak up when someone tells a lie about my Heavenly Father? This doctrine is a lie! The Bible says in Jude that Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed as an example "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." I ask you to show me today where these two cities are still burning. Why, they didn't even last a few hundred years and yet they were consumed by "eternal fire." So where are they today?
And, again, you say you believe the whole Bible. Then you must also believe the Psalms. And, your basis for believing the Bible is that you know it to be inspired by God. So then David must have also written the Psalms under the inspiration of God. Notice what David wrote, under inspiration, about the final disposition of the wicked. "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." Psalm 37:20,10-11.
Now, doesn't it anger you that someone would suggest that God's character is so terribly atrocious when we have the image of Christ on the cross dying for our sins--the Just for the unjust? This is how I interpret Col 2:8. Perhaps a little wider than your interpretation. So, since I know you want to narrow the focus a bit an talk about a specific point I will delete my posts (except for this one explaining your previous replies).
I'm just one state over from you in Tennessee. Look at these words from our State Constitution, drafted in 1776:
-- Article VIII, Section II: No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State. --
I mentioned this section to one of our State Reps several years ago and he was unaware of it. Duhhhh.
That is very interesting fact about your state constitution. Apparently, there were lots of things of this nature embedded in the constitutions of many early states. One state (can't remember which) actually denied a Catholic to hold office. That was during a period when being a Catholic was not so popular in this free country. I am very proud of the Baptists in Virginia. Because of them we have the 1st Amendment. That was their condition for ratifying the Constitution of the United States. I wonder if they had a history of persecution?
I started listening to the sermon you mentioned at lunch today but have not finished. I am sure he and I will disagree at some point if he brings up the subject of eternal fires, but I listened to over half of it and I believe I agree with his teachings so far. I believe that God will punish the wicked. And, I realize that God has punished the inhabitants of the earth for just reasons. I also believe that God will burn the wicked in the lake of fire which some may call "hell." What I don't believe is that the soul is immortal and cannot die. This means I also do not accept the teaching that the wicked will burn eternally in a special place called hell.
Where do I believe hell is? The Bible says the earth will burn like an oven and be dissolved. Notice 2 Peter 3:7, "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." Verse 10 cleary states that the earth will burn up on the "day of the Lord." Verse 10, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." What are the works that will be burned up? The buildings and structures? Yes, that, but what about evil men? "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8.
There is one, maybe two verses, in all of scripture which might give one the impression that hell fire will burn the wicked for ever and ever. In fact, that is almost a direct quote--"for ever and ever." But there are so many other verses, such as the one you brought up (Matt 10:28), which teach that the soul is not immortal but can not only die but be destroyed, that a man has no memory in the grave and his thoughts perish, that he has no more part of anything under the sun, and that in the resurrection he comes out of the grave--hell, if you please. Jesus taught that both the wicked and the righteous would come out of the grave. Revelation tells us those two resurrections happen at different times--a thousand years apart. Jesus spent a lot of time at Mary, Martha, and Lazarath's home. Jesus never told them Lazarath was in heaven but when he said he would rise up Martha confirmed she knew (from Jesus' teachings) that he would rise up in the resurrection. Jesus always took opportunity to clear up misconceptions but he did not correct Martha other than to add, "I AM the resurrection."
So, we believe very much the same except that I believe the wicked will actually burn up with unquenchable fire and be "ashes under our feet" as it says in Malachi. I quote here from Malachi 4:1, "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."
So considering the weight of evidence--and that is what we must do whenever there are apparent contridictions--I believe as I do regarding "hellfire." I also believe that teaching to be more consistent with a God of justice and mercy. Plus, I think God is offended when we suggest that He cannot destory evil forever. Notice this verse from Nahum 1:9, "What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time."
On a sad note, I have had people tells me that parts of the Bible cannot be used for doctrine, e.g. The Psalms. But the New Testament tells us that ALL scripture is inspired of God. A close examination of the Psalms will show that it is most likely the most complete work in the entire Bible, covering every doctrine and prophecy and history. We are in grave danger when we start selecting portions of scripture to believe or disbelieve, or when we place one author above another in importance. When we do this we deny that God inspired holy men of old. And we become followers of men when we pit the words of, say, Paul, against the writings of James. We says as did some early Christians, "I follow Paul," or "I follow James." Did any of these men have anything they didn't receive of God. Since God is the true Author of the Bible then He inspired Paul, as well as James, as well as Peter, and John, to write the New Testament. They wrote in their own language but the Holy Spirit moved them.
Well, I am confident that a close examination of scripture will place the weight of evidence on the side of a mortal man and an immortal God. God does not merely have life, God is Life. Man borrows his life from God. Man does not inherently possess life. When God takes away his breath, he returns to the dust of the earth from which he came. When God resurrects us, He will call us forth out of the earth. He records, and we don't know how, all of our physical, mental, and spiritual data. When we come forth out of the grave (the dust) I believe we will be recognized even though we will reside in a glorified body.
I would, however, like to discuss this with someone because I don't know that perspective too well. I am sure that in the process we could learn from each other.
Sorry, I forgot something important. Yes, I believe that fear is a motivator. But it can never replace love. Love is more powerful than fear. When you love someone there is a constraining power regardless of distance. But, when you fear someone the power is lessened by distance.
I hope to be able to pursue this further with an example from the life of Judas, who repented that he had betrayed innocent blood. But his guilt overcame him and he went and hanged himself. He didn't have the kind of repentance that comes from God but he did have the repentance that comes from a fearful looking forward to a day of judgment.
So fear may begin our quest but if we never see the goodness of God we will not experience true repentant, not to be repented of. Thus, the doctrine of hellfire can not lead a person to true repentance. They may repent to save their hide but they don't know of a loving, compassionate, pitiful, and merciful God who died to save them from sin. All they may know is that if they don't confess, God will burn them for ever and ever. Certainly no grounds for building any kind of healthy relationship.
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Because everyone has an opinion and I have often expressed mine, I thought it would be a good idea to offer you some substantiating arguments from an unassailable source to help frame up how my thinking has been shaped. The subject was fear as a motivational tool to draw men to God. Contemplate this passage in light of that idea.
quote:
1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
We know that if we are not attached to the vine then we will wither and die. And that dead branches are gathered and thrown into the fire to be burned. This passage tells us that if we dwell in love, we dwell in God (for God is love). And if our love (dwelling in God) is made perfect, then we will have no fear at the judgement. In fact, we will be bold because we know that just as we have known Jesus to be, so are we in this world.
Worthy of noting is that fear hath torment. And are love for God is not matured (made perfect) through fear. Yet, the only way to be perfected in love is to dwell in God. The way to dwell in God is not by living in fear of eternal torment, that is not the correct motivation. But the correct motivation is perfected by believing and living in the love that God has for us. But we do not love God first. Our love is reciprocal. We love him because we comprehend his love for us.
Fear may wake us up so that we might listen to the love of God. But if we never move into love then we will never be free of our fear (of damnation). The love of God sent his Son into this world to redeem us from sin and take us out from under the condemnation of the law by taking our curse upon himself.
posted
Jeff, I am familiar with those great texts and they do NOT hinder me from believing in a literal place of torment - a place which Jesus described in greater depth than heaven. A place which God created for the Devil and his angels. Thus no one can complain of his injustice to confine a human being to such a place. In other words, that terrible destination is their own decision.
While we're just getting started on this subject, I would remind readers that it is the New Testament, surprisingly to some, which states, in the context of Godly fear, that He is a "consuming fire." Unless that truth is factored in with the "loving God" texts, things will, I believe, be somewhat skewed.
Hebr. 12:28-29 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.
From the Old Testament, this proverb comes to mind: The FEAR of the Lord is the beginning of understanding.
quote: Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Powerful stuff! If we were to answer the questions of "who" with a mindset of hellfire, we might reply "the wicked, that is who."
But, if we read the next verse we find the answer to the question of whom shall dwell with the devouring fire and with everlasting burnings.
quote: Verse 15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Surprising answer, isn't it? But not so suprising when you consider your verse in Hebrews which states that "our God is a consuming fire!"
So who will dwell with "our God that is an eternal, consuming fire?" Why, it is the righteous. Only those who have overcome sin by the blood of the lamb will be able to dwell with God. The wicked would burn eternally with a guilty conscience and would cry to be hidden from his pure face. So, as you say, they choose not to dwell with God because they have not learned to love righteousness but have clung to their cherished sins.
David, you wrote earlier, "Jeff, I am familiar with those great texts and they do NOT hinder me from believing in a literal place of torment - a place which Jesus described in greater depth than heaven."
I wanted to make sure that you understood that I too believe in a literal place of torment. (see my post "Where Is Hell" in this subcategory.) What I am questioning is whether or not God has a place where He will eternally torment sinners. Or, will He burn them with everlasting fire as He did Sodom and Gomorrah? Rather than their torment lasting through-out ceaseless ages does the everlasting fires refer to the effects lasting eternally? In other words, as Nahum 1:9 says, God will make an utter end to sin. It will not rise up again.
But that is not the main reason I am writing today. Today I wanted to join you in affirming not only the love and mercy of God but also the justice and wrath of God.
You had expressed your concern in this way:
quote:DA- While we're just getting started on this subject, I would remind readers that it is the New Testament, surprisingly to some, which states, in the context of Godly fear, that He is a "consuming fire." Unless that truth is factored in with the "loving God" texts, things will, I believe, be somewhat skewed.
You are absolutely correct. God balances fear with grace. Just to cite some examples.
1) When God brought Israel out of bondage to Egypt He manifested to them His awesome glory at Sinai right after He had shown them His compassion for them when He brought them out of Egypt by a mighty hand. The sight was so terrible that the people pleaded for Moses to talk with God that they might be spared the terribleness of the scene. Even Moses quaked.
2)
Then we have this cameo of God's government in Romans 13. The picture painted is one where the evil doer needs to fear the authority because it is against him, but the righteous man it protects. So the answer is to do what is right and the law will not speak against you. This too shows the balance of grace and fear. I believe that this balance of justice and mercy (love and fear) is beneficial to man. The love of God draws us to Him while the wrath of God toward sin repulses us from evil.
If anyone thinks that God will not destroy sin and the sinner who continues in sin they only need look at the example of the cross. There the Son of God died because of our sins. Sin is the transgression of the law and the law demands the blood of the one who breaks God's law. "The wages of sin is death." "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law." "...The law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient..."
So while we who have accepted Jesus as our Savior and take His death as our own should not be trembling with fear at the thought of meeting Jesus those who reject His mercy and continue in sin will cry for the rock and mountains to fall on them rather than to look upon His face.
While the love of God is a deep, all-consuming subject, the fear of God must also remain--knowing that if we turn away from God to do evil we will be judged as sinners. In the last part of Hebrews chapter 3 we read that because of their unbelief some Hebrews could not enter into God's rest. Chapter 4 opens with a warning to our era. "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." This doesn't mean that we should walk in trembling fear of God's wrath. Nor are we unable to have an assurance of salvation. What I believe this is saying is that we should be awake, lest we, like the pig or dog, return to our old ways and lose out.
So there is a healthy fear that should repulse us from the enticements of evil--knowing the judgments of God and that all must give account in the judgment. That should always accompany our love, trust, and hope in Jesus. (By example, even our body muscles oppose each other giving us smooth muscular movement, steady hands, more control, and greater precision.)
BTW, chapter 3 and 4 in Hebrews are a good argument against the opinion that salvation in the OT was or is different from salvation in the NT. They were not unbelievers because of their disobedience. They were disobedient because of the unbelief. They did not exercise faith. Even Abraham was righteous by faith. It has always been that all mankind is justified by faith and never by his own works. The fact that God gave His law on Mt. Sinai does not establish salvation by works but rather establishes faith and grace. The law was given to expose (magnify) their sins, to cut short their self-righteousness, to cause them in their weakness to come to Jesus as their Savior. The sacrificial system was established to teach them this very lesson. As in the NT so is in the OT--"there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved," save that of Jesus Christ.
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Jeff, Referring to your earlier post on 1-12-2005 on Isaiah 33. My understanding is that there's a break between verse 14 & 15. Verse 14 is about the wicked while 15-16 is about the righteous. It doesn't change the fact that our God is to be feared though.
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Yes, the wicked should definitely fear God.
I would have liked it better if those who eventually placed the chapter and verse numbers to scripture had divide verse 14 in half. It could have read like this:
Isaiah 33
13 ¶ Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might. 14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites.
15 Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
But, they didn't see it that way for some reason. I am not sure what their criteria was when it came to divisions.
posted
At some point, some years ago, I became quite literally sick and tired of the tossing between God's mercy and God's wrath. I paused with the Holy Spirit and He connected in my experience the 2 verses that say: "The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord" and "Perfect love casts out all fears". That was the end of my being sick and tired and the tossing subsided with the begining of the wisdom that love directly empowers within who I am by Who God is... The experience of such fear and of such love pulvarized any and all of my versions of what I thought these words meant. The reality of knowing God because He makes me know that I am known of Him through and through cannot be replaced by any intellectual gymnastics nor can such knowledge be counterfeited nor counterfitted. From the beginning of wisdom to the experience of being freed by perfect love, there is the entire scope and spectrum of the human quest from the cradle to the grave, being drawn into finding or loosing the simplicity of God's Eternal Covenant. Loosing this simplicity is to land into torments of eternal sorrows, whereas finding such simplicity is the peaceful and joyful blessing of the Eternal to His own, as the Father of us all, for whom living is in the being, where the gates of hell cannot prevail... One last point! It seems that traditional Christian mental gymnastics has confused everlasting and eternal to mean the same. No, No. Eternal is everlasting, of course, but everlasting is not necessarely eternal, as in the divine nature kind of The Eternal, the Almighty God. There is a whole lot more to eternal life than only being everlasting; there is God Himself/Themselves, all with us, in one reality of Their/our Own.
Does that fit here?
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
Brother, excuse my ignorance. Your words are beautiful but they don't form anything concrete in my mind. Is that God's perfect love for us or our perfect love for God? Maybe if you could start by defining "perfect love" it would help. Is there a scriptural definition of perfect love that you could provide me?
My apologies. You are right in pointing out the need for scriptural clarity. I had not realise the possible confusion.
The first verse I refer to is in Proverbs 9, 10 and says:
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. (In French it sayd "the knowledge of the saints is understanding.)
and the next passage I mentioned is from the apostle John's first epistle and tells us that perfect love is from God's love getting perfected in us by His abiding in us:
"No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him."
Then the apostle goes on describing that such love conquers even the judgement days anxieties or torment with an assurance such, that it reaches all the way to the measure of boldness:
"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. We love Him because He first loved us." 1 Jn,4, 12-19
So what I described to have been my experience of "being quite literally sick and tired of the tossing between God's mercy and God's wrath" had to do with His disciplining and teaching me the hard way, the lesson that there is no other way for love to live in me and I, to live in love, than to let Him abide in me so that I may too, abide in Him. It all becomes very simple, when this is not subjected to mental gymnastics, but rather, when we each live in the simplicity of the devotion to Christ.
For the sake of explaining the deepening of such simplicity in the matter of love versus fear and torment, the apostle Paul expresses great caution when he says:
"Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!" 2Cor 11,1-4
The matter of a mind that is corrupted from being out of the simplicity of the devotion to Christ, is where much of my tossing comes from. The strength and intensity of the tossing between the Lord's mercy and His wrath come from the Godly, mature jealousy of the body of Christ on earth who are (Gal 4,19) suffering through the travail of labour until Christ is formed in us, "because as He is, so are we in this world", as John explains in the passage used earlier. Seeking to bring the gospel to others before being deeply rooted in the Spirit myself and solidly grounded in the Body discipline has been my downfall into much torment and in spite of me, I've been getting rescued and spared by much grace and mercy from our Father's intimate reach, even in the darkest moment, as so many others have said before me. "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?"
All that instability has made me and goes on making me long to enter the constancy of 1Pe 5,10-11
"But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen."
When I mention Body discipline, the main part I see missing, is this capacity to forgive 70 times 7 that Jesus actualy orders in Mt 18, 22 in answer to Peter's question. Interestingly, this order comes right after Jesus speaks of Body discipline saying:
"So it is not the will of your Father who is in the heavens that one of these little ones should perish. But if thy brother sin against thee, go, reprove him between thee and him alone. If he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he do not hear thee, take with thee one or two besides, that every matter may stand upon the word of two witnesses or of three. But if he will not listen to them, tell it to the assembly; and if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer. Verily I say to you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens. For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them." Then comes Peter's question as to how often we are to forgive.
If you or anyone else reading this get driven to pray for us, the letters to which I provide the links below, were recently writen and will give details of the struggles we are in and for which the deep root in the Spirit and the solid grounding in the Body discipline on earth become the only healing to our circustances that we brought on ourselves because of immaturity; ours and the Church in its general state of deceived busyness with structures and formalities. The healing I speak of, is the physical completion of "the translation from out of the domain of darkness and into the Kingdom of God's beloved Son". Col 1,13 (Darby) as described by Paul in Eph 4, 9-16 saying:
(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love." It is very much worth reading the rest of the chapter, for a complete serving.
When I mentioned the Church's general state of deceived busyness with structures and formalities, I was largely refering to the fact that my wife and I have yet to come across any form of Church Authorities who know the experience of "till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ..."
All christian authorities that we have come across so far my wife and I, do not accept that this unity is possible while we are on earth, until the day when Christ-Jesus returns. If that is the case, I've asked over and over, then why does Paul go on with "that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love."
Much torments comes to the children of God because of such instituted ignorance.
So the topic being "Does a loving God assign anyone to endless torment?" my personal expeience is that these endless torments exist and they are to be conquered in our soul and body by the cross, coming with the presence of God and the gift of eternal life in our spirit and our heart. Until such personal discipline is mature, endless torment is certain to be experienced as part of the judgement which begins by the House of the Lord. Now, such rescue from endless torments is for the children of God. These endless torments will go on for the many who will have avoided repentence and rejected the daily discipline of the cross.
Dear God, bless Your journey in our lives and release us in Your completion, in all the simplicity of Your Holiness I pray..amen to Your Yes in us all...
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
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Thanks to all who prayed for us, we now have a roof over our heads.
As I opened up to ask for help, one of the recent member of our forum asked me to write directly to the email address he gave me. I did and it turned out to be someone who insisted in the lawlessness of my condition as opposed to the all suficiency of God's grace in all matters of existance, life and discipline. It was felling very much the way that Job must have felt, when he was being silenced by his righteous friends. I can only pray and hope that this person gets to know God ahead of doctrines before going on with false claim of being in position to help anyone in the name of the One true God.
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
quote:Originally posted by Benoit17: Salut Jeff, .......
.....So the topic being "Does a loving God assign anyone to endless torment?" my personal expeience is that these endless torments exist and they are to be conquered in our soul and body by the cross, coming with the presence of God and the gift of eternal life in our spirit and our heart. Until such personal discipline is mature, endless torment is certain to be experienced as part of the judgement which begins by the House of the Lord. Now, such rescue from endless torments is for the children of God. These endless torments will go on for the many who will have avoided repentence and rejected the daily discipline of the cross.
Dear God, bless Your journey in our lives and release us in Your completion, in all the simplicity of Your Holiness I pray..amen to Your Yes in us all...
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I agree with this quote but let me make a point: God 'condemns' no one to Hell forever. He simply condemns sinners to Hell to be punished for their sins. They choose to go on sinning forever and so God keeps them their forever. Also their greatest suffering however is seeing God on Judgment Day and then living without Him. They become void of all good- even natural human good and take on the character of demons- As Jonathan Edwards rightly said. If God were to let them into Heaven they would still be in Hell by virtue- excuse that word- of their unholy characters. Whatever God chooses to do with them they can never be happy as long a they exist in a rebellious state of perfect spiritual enlightenment (after seeing God) with perfect sin. Cannot you unbelievers in God's Justice see all the wrong is on the side of the sinners? MY GOD HASN'T HAD SO MUCH AS ONE EVIL THOUGHT IN ALL ETERNITY. Add up all the condemnation of the world upon Him- some even from Christians.
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Yes; God is always remains merciful no matter how grave the sin, however He is also just and will not let sins go unpunished if the sinner continues to be stubborn, so "hell" is a righteous judgment and shouldn't be mistaken for an "eternal condemnation" for the sins of a single lifetime, as worldly people often do.
That being so, I would like to add (though this is slightly off topic) I was once asked by an atheist "if God is so merciful why does he give people one chance to repent in this life and then send them to hell for eternity?" This is a foolish and yet popular question for worldly people who want to try and trap Christians to ask, however the atheist obviously had the wrong idea about hell altogether. What I mean to say by posting this is that if anyone here is ever asked a similar question, you now know how to answer the foolish worldly person. There are many other foolish questions like these asked by worldly people to try and trick or trap Christians that can be answered simply by proper study of the Bible. (Thank you for pointing this out, BlackSwan.)
-------------------- Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
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An Atheist is a person who has faith in nothing. This does not mean that they have no faith but rather they do believe that Nothing made everything! - They call it being 'rational' and especially 'scientific'. Contrary to popular beleif the easiest people to confute when witnessing are Atheists. Usually after making a few statements of conclusion before any argument has been put forward- such as 'Science has proved that God doesn't exist'; they then crumble when challenged. There are very few exceptions to the rule. The hardest persons to witness to on the other hand are those who are simply indifferent and non-committal to anything. Atheists, and in particular old Communists, are fond of ranting at God and like to say things like, 'If I had the power I would send God to Hell for all eternity'. They also have a habit of manifesting the greatest degree of hatred to Christ that you will get from people you witness to; often they rage with the veins bursting out on their foreheads. Worldly Christians would assume that this is because you 'Spoke the truth but not in love', or were 'Ramming religion down their throat', but it actually occurs when the Spirit of Christ is manifest in the humility and truthfulness of the witness. Before becoming a Christian myself I was very impressed by a ranting Atheist on the radio and I had to ask myself, 'How can he hate Someone so much Whom he says doesn't exist?' So that Atheist helped me become a Christian! If the Wisdom of God fills you you will never lose an argument with a worldly spirited person because Truth by His very nature is a Fire that consumes their darkness.
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