In another topic the idea surfaced that we suffer on this earth in order to purify us, or pefect us, in preparation to enter heaven. Now I agree that we do suffer and that we must be pure to enter heaven. Just wondering if it is the suffering which perfects us? (I am being very specific here.)
What I am referring to is purgatory, a Catholic doctrine, which teaches we must suffer to purge us of our sins and purify/perfect us before we are allowed to enter heaven. Does scripture really teach this--that we are perfected by our sufferings--or did we borrow this from the Catholic faith?
quote:III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
--Catechism of the Catholic Church - Part 1
There is so much error in this quote I don't know where to begin. But let me say this, that the whole of this teaching is based upon human works--what we do--rather than Divine grace. The very thought of suffering for our own sins suggests that we are partakers with Christ in the atonement process. This is very flattering to the carnal mind but is totally untrue and implies that Christ's sacrifice was not sufficient or efficatious.
How are we purified/perfected?
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Hebrews 10:9-14
Does anyone have any good thoughts on either why they believe we are perfected/purified by our sufferings or how we are perfected/purified?
posted
I don't know if I am an expert to answer this one. My perfection is in Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 5:8,9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salavation unto all them that obey Him.
I have been predestined to be conformed to His image.
That the trying of my faith though tried by fire might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.
Jesus is God's own Son, but still he had to suffer before he could learn what it really means to obey God. Suffering made Jesus perfect, and now he can save forever all who obey him.
The question I have to ask at this point is was it the suffering which made Jesus perfect or was it the obedience in the face of suffering? Is it God's goodness that leads us to repentance, or his wrath?
Suffering and chastisement have their place. When God cursed the earth he said it was for Adam's sake. So God intended mankind to derive a blessing from toil and heartache. But to suffer for our sins is not Biblical in my mind. The wages of sin is death and that is a debt we cannot afford to pay. That is why Jesus paid that debt for us. If we had paid it we would have never risen from the grave because we were guilty and justice would have been served in our death. And the idea that we suffer to be perfected or purified seems to be simply restating a Catholic doctrine.
Now, to suffer for obedience to Christ, now that is profitable. To know and understand the suffering involved and still choose to be obedient to Christ (by a faith that works by love) is definitely profitable. But to merely suffer pain as the consequence of sin seems to be more of a deterent not a detergent. It may well be that suffering places a desire for something better in our hearts. But still, just having a desire for less suffering is not profitable.
I'll stop now cause I seem to be rambling--trying to put my thoughts into right words. Any other thoughts?
quote: The question I have to ask at this point is was it the suffering which made Jesus perfect or was it the obedience in the face of suffering? Is it God's goodness that leads us to repentance, or his wrath?
We know Jesus was perfect after all he is God. He was as a lamb without blemish or spot and without sin.
John 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1 Peter 1:18-19 (KJV) Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; [19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1 John 3:5 (KJV) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Hebrews 4:15 (KJV) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Since Christ was perfect, without sin, what do the verses in Heb. 2:10 and 5:8-9 deal with? I looked up several words. Glory can mean opinion, judgment estimate (good or bad). Captian means leader, prince, example, predecessor, author. Perfect means to complete, finish, bring to an end, proposed goal, accomplish, fulfillment. And finally suffer means to be affected, to feel, experience, undergo.
Thus, Christ brought many to judgment as their prince who went before them to complete or fulfill their salvation thru the things he experienced. He was not perfected but rather accomplished the fulfillment of God’s plan of salvation for mankind.
Hebrews 2:10 (KJV) For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Here in Heb. 5, we see Christ learned obedience or compliance by the things he experienced or underwent. He fulfilled or completed the requirements for salvation for those who obey him. He was not perfected by his obedience for he was already perfect. He was obedient in his perfection. He was an example to us of how to suffer, how to give one’s life for others, how to put aside one’s own feelings for others, how to obey God even unto death.
Hebrews 5:8-9 (KJV) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; [9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
Is it God’s goodness or wrath that leads us to repentance? Well, to hear many hell fire preachers it is his wrath. Better get some fire insurance! However, that is not scriptural.
I don’t remember Jesus harping on wrath. Rather he said he came to save not judge. Although he did honestly tell the people to repent. He loved people and explained the kingdom was come. He did good to them; and he said no one could come to him except the Father draw him. God is longsuffering that none should perish. God so loved us that he gave his only begotten son---not so scared us with his wrath.
John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65 (KJV) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
With that in mind, I wondered why people suffer? Why is there sickness, troubles, etc.? I especially wondered why God would invent or at least allow cancer? I especially wondered why he would allow cancer to affect one of his own? It seemed reasonable to have such affect a non believer; but why his own children? What was the point in their suffering? I wrestled with this while taking care of my dying mother. I was really mad at God for allowing such. In the midst of my anger, he spoke to my heart. I remembered how Jesus suffered on the cross for me. I remembered how God, the Father must have suffered as he watched Jesus on the cross. The Father loved me so much he gave his only begotten son. Thus, through my own suffering and Mom’s suffering, I saw just how much the Lord really loved me. I matured and was no longer mad, but realized God’s ways are much higher than my own.
And now the question that started this discussion to begin with. Are we perfected by suffering and does that perfecting relate to our salvation? I believe from my own experience above, you can see I was a believer. Jesus had already paid the price for my salvation. My suffering did nothing to earn my salvation; but gave me more understanding and appreciation of God’s love for me.
Does suffering which perfects relate to salvation? No Jesus paid for our salvation---he alone was the propitiation for our sins--- so what does suffering do?
1 John 2:1-6 (KJV) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Heb. 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Jesus perfected or completed those dedicated to God. The disciples warned and taught that men might be perfect or complete and mature in Christ.
Col. 1:28 (KJV) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
John 17:23 (KJV) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
We are not perfected or completed by flesh . That would include our works. What we do in the flesh doesn’t complete us; but rather as we mature our works show evidence of our growth through mature works.
Galatians 3:3 (KJV) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
The Lord makes us perfect working in us doing his will.
Hebrews 13:20-21 (KJV) Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, [21] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
So those trials are not our works; but rather they work in us to complete us. Notice patience has a perfect work. These trials are tools used by God to mature us.
James 1:2-4 (KJV) My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; [3] Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. [4] But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
1 Peter 5:6-10 (KJV) Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: [7] Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. [8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: [9] Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. [10] But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
Remember Job and the many afflictions he had. Lost family, money, property, health and his wife and friends turned against him. God used these trials to test his faith.
Sometimes God uses trials to call us to him. Often we have to be at the very bottom, flat on our back before we can look up and see him.
Sometimes we reap what we sow and thus bring trials and sorrows on our selves.
Sometimes God chastens us to bring us back inline with his will.
Sometimes our trial is so we can comfort others going through the same type of trials.
Whatever the reason for our trial and sufferings, we know God uses all things to our good if we believe in him.
So let us be like Paul and continue in the race, continue in the faith and glory in our trials for they shall strengthen us and mature us that we may be more Christ like.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
As always, I appreciate your comments. I think you have presented a fairly well-rounded picture of suffering. I just wanted to stress a few points which you only touched upon.
While Jesus is truly God and he is the word made flesh, he did come as the second Adam. He depended upon his Heavenly Father for strength and guidance. What I mean is that while Jesus was Divine, his Divinity was clothed in humanity. He did not rely upon his own Divinity to sustain him. Some of Christ's greatest temptations were to prove his Divinity. But Jesus' mission was to succeed where the first Adam failed.
While Jesus was perfect and never sinned he still had to experience the ever increasing temptations and trials of weak humanity. Jesus did not start his life-walk at the cross. The cross was the final event. And his humanity struggled with drinking the cup. But each step of the way leading up to the cross Jesus pressed onward and upward and never faultered. Thus, the verse says he was perfected by the trials he experienced--the things he suffered. In like manner, we grow by our experiences and, yes, even our mistakes--if we learn a lesson from them.
I just wanted to attempt to show that while Jesus was perfect he was also human and was tempted just as we are and yet he was faithful and never sinned. The fact that he never sinned does make him perfect but perhaps the verse is implying that until he faced death that perfection was not demonstrated. But while we talk of Christ's perfect life of obedience we must never assume that there was no possibility for him to fall to temptation. While Jesus had no propensity toward sin he was tempted just as we are today. Because he knows our struggles he can be our merciful High Priest and succor us to himself by the knowledge that he suffered as we do yet overcame on all points.
Something interesting about sin. It is not the tempation that develops the sin in us. Our hearts are wicked beyond knowing. Temptation merely reveals what already lies within our hearts. Because Jesus did not have an affinity for sin his heart was pure and temptation (the devil) found nothing in him--there was no response to temptation in the heart of Jesus. For this reason, we can surrender our wills to him and thereby invite his spirit into our hearts so that we can live his life rather than ours. The more completely we surrender our desires to the will of God the more completely our lives will immitate that of Christ's. When we do sin, that is, yield to temptation, it reveals that in that area of our lives we are not in harmony with God's will. It does not mean that we are not Christian, nor that we are destined for hell, it simply means that here is an area where we need more Divine grace. We must not view these failures as total losses but we should realize that God has revealed to us an area under construction and we should pray for heavenly workers to come and repair the breach in the wall. "Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against Thee."
So I said all that to remind us that while Jesus walked this earth he veiled his divinity in humanity and was indeed tempted and was susceptible to sin. But temptation touched no resounding chord in the heart strings of Jesus. He was kept by his Heavenly Father.
When he was young he grew in grace and favor. His whole life he met with ever increasing trials. But he was faithful to the end, even unto death. Jesus humbled himself in total obedience to his Father. Therefore, God has exalted him above all.
In your first post above, you wrote:"Now I agree that we do suffer and that we must be pure to enter heaven."
My questions here are these:
-What purity is required to enter heaven?
-When do Christians "go to heaven"?
Is there any believer anywhere in scripture who "went to heaven" while their physical body was dead?? In other words, is it really and scripturally true that "Christians go to heaven when they die?"
As far as I can tell from scripture, EVERY person who ever went to heaven WENT THERE WHILE THEIR PHYSICAL BODY WAS ALIVE!
Is it possible that we have been taught a very erroneous doctrine when we were taught that "Christians go to heaven when they die"???
When did Enoch, Elijah, the Lord Jesus, the apostle Paul go to heaven?
In Ephesians 2:4-6 we find answers to the questions:
WHAT has God done? "he loved us", "he quickened us together with Christ", "he hath raised up together", "he hath made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
In what TENSE are all these actions accomplished? "he loved...he quickened...he hath made us sit" are all PAST TENSE.
But the doctyrine that Christians will go to heaven when they die is FUTURE TENSE.
Yes, future tense. But I do not believe that we go either to heaven or hell when we die. Hell is this world. The Bible tells us that the Lord rains fire upon the wicked while upon the breadth of the earth. See Where Is Hell?
The answers to your questions are found in Eph 2:5,10. These verses tell us that it is God that does this work in us. Therefore, it is a perfect work.
The references in past tense are in the same class with such scripture as "The Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth." In other words, it's an expression regarding the faithfulness of the word of God. If God says it, you can bank on it. It is as good as done. Though the actual fulfillment may come at a later time. Just as Christ, the Lamb of God, was slain when the fulness of time came, so we too will actual sit in heaven with Jesus when the fulness of time comes.
On what basis do you determine when (past present or future) the following actions in Ephesians 2 are accomplished? If language means anything at all, how can you honestly say that the tenses in verses 1-5 and 7-10 are literal but that verse 6 is to be understood in a totally different manner? What features of the text would provide you with objective signals that such a manner of interpretation is correct??
1 ¶ And you HATH HE QUICKENED, who WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein IN TIME PAST YE WALKED according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that NOW WORKETH in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also WE ALL HAD OUR CONVERSATION IN TIME PAST in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and WERE BY NATURE THE CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others. 4 ¶ But God, who IS RICH IN MERCY, for his great love wherewith HE LOVED US, 5 Even WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, HATH QUICKENED US together with Christ, (by grace YE ARE SAVED;) 6 And HATH RAISED US UP together, and MADE US SIT together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That IN THE AGES TO COME he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace ARE YE SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves: it IS the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS unto good works, which God HATH BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them.
If verse 6 really is future, what scripture would tell you when this actually takes place??
Now I'll be the first to acknowledge that our 5 senses certainly do not testify to the truth of verse 6! But neither do they bear any testimony to the truths of verses 1-10! Are believers in Jesus Christ forgiven, justified, washed cleansed, indwelt by the Spirit of God etc RIGHT NOW? Our 5 senses certainly do not tell us these things, and yet they are real FACTS!
If we can accept the testimony of scripture relative to these other truths (as present realities) why can we not accept the truth of verse 6 in exactly the same way??
As for hell, I am quite happy to accept the testimony of the Lord Jesus,Himself, concerning the reality of the wicked being consciously in hell AFTER DEATH. Luke 16. To those who claim that "hell is on earth", I ask: "When did you have your last drink of water or your last shower?" Their answer is positive proof that they are not yet in hell!
I need to test my understanding of what you are saying before we go further.
Are you saying that verse 6 means that even though my senses tell me I am still living in a sinful world I am actually sitting in heaven with Jesus? Or, does verse 6 means that I can by faith sit in heaven because Jesus is sitting there now?
The verse says we sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Because He is there we are there in Him (by faith, which is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for).
Please tell me if you are arguing that we are physically in heaven right now or we are there by faith in Christ and will realize the physical fulfillment when the Lord comes to take us home.
Regarding hell and the parable in Luke 16; there has been many who have accepted the parable as fact but have ignored the witness of every other scripture dealing with the state of the dead. I'll give one scripture here, Psalm 104, and direct you to the topic in this cafe called Where Is Hell. Click --> Where Is Hell?
Let me answer your questions relative to Eph.2:6 by also referring to Ephesians 1:3-14.
This passage states a number of FACTS that are true for every believer in Jesus Christ (from the youngest believer just saved today, to the oldest who has been in the family for many years.) Each of these facts I have placed in bold type:
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, WHO HATH BLESSED US WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST: 4 According as HE HATH CHOSEN US IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 HAVING PREDESTINATED US UNTO THE ADOPTION OF CHILDREN by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein HE HATH MADE US ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED. 7 In whom WE HAVE REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD,THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS , according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein HED HATH ABOUNDED TOWARD US IN ALL WISDOM AND PRUDENCE; 9 HAVING MADE KNOWN UNTO US THE MYSTERY OF HIS WILL, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION, unto the praise of his glory.
All of these facts are true for every child of God whether they are aware of them, whether they believe them or NOT! They do NOT become true because the are believed! Rather, they only become ENJOYED when they are believed!
None of these truths have to do with PHYSICAL BODIES, nor does Eph.2:6 have to do with PHYSICAL BODIES! In fact it is our physical bodies which really stand in the way of our full appreciation of all of these facts! Our physical bodies only process information available to our 5 senses. But these truths of scripture transcend those senses!
Our bodies cannot verify the facts of forgiveness, justification, the sealing of the Holy Spirit, etc etc. But they are very real, very personal facts! BUT, no one can ENJOY the reality of those facts who does not KNOW and BELIEVE them!
The very same is true of all the FACTS stated in Ephesians chapters 2 and 3!
I hope that you quickly make your point and explain how this pertains to the topic of Purgatory.
I will answer your post with a question. A beggar sits beside a busy roadway hoping for a morsel of food. He is unaware that his uncle died leaving him an inheritance of millions. He in turn dies without ever finding out about his wealth. Does the beggar benefit from the facts? Why not?
Christ has predestined us to be his children but not everyone will take hold of it by faith. Some haven't heard yet, some will not believe, some cannot believe, some will refuse. So who benefits from the facts? Only those who hear them and believe.
While it is true that our belief does not establish God's truth it is not OUR truth until we believe it. It is not a matter of enjoyment, it is more a matter of impartation. We do not become partakers of the inheritance until we have believed by faith. So even though God has children who will inherit eternal life, we are not a child of his until we act on our faith.
In contrast to your beggar by the highway, every child of God HAS BEEN RAISED, and HAS BEEN SEATED WITH CHRIST IN THE HEAVENLIES. That is right where our inheritance has been reserved for us! (I Peter 1:4) The sad fact is that many believers have read these things in scripture, have been taught them, but refuse to believe them to be actual facts! Their unbelief does NOT remove them from the place where Christ has seated them, but it certainly does keep them from enjoying that near place and that relationship with Him that could be theirs!
It also keeps them from enjoying their inheritance RIGHT NOW! Many such saints of God live poverty stricken lives beacuse they refuse to believe that they HAVE BEEN BLESSED WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS IN HEAVELY PLACES IN CHRIST!
You asked a good question: How does this relate to the topic of "purgatory"?
In just this way: Scripture teaches that that Lord Jesus, WHEN HE HAD PURGED OUR SINS SAT DOWN! Heb.1:3 He did the purging, NOT US! It is all finished and to testify to that fact, he sat down! Now, we too are seated with Him in tyhe heavenlies and canenjoy relationship with Him who purged our sins. There is no more "purgatory" for us!
Does that answer the question?
Yours in Christ and seated with Him ion the heavenlies, Bruce
Christ has purged our sins. I am glad you came to that conclusion. I wasn't sure where we were going.
Here is a quote I posted on another board regarding Purgatory:
quote:The reason that the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is considered so objectionable by Protestant churches is that it belittles the sacrifice of Jesus. This can be easily seen if one compares the definition of purgatory to the strong, historic, statements of Protestantism regarding Justification by Faith, not by works, [lest any man should boast].
Def: Purgatory, from the American Heritage Dictionary 1. Roman Catholic Church. A state in which the souls of those who have died in grace must expiate their sins. 2. A place or condition of suffering, expiation, or remorse: a purgatory of drug abuse.
It is the word expiate that really stands out. From the same source we find that expiate means: To make amends or reparation for; atone: expiate one's sins by acts of penance.
Nothing we could do, even if given an eternity of penance, could add one morsel to the enormity of the condescension, humility, and sacrifice of Jesus in coming to this world in human flesh for the suffering of death upon a cross. Don't dare say, don't even think it! Such ideas are offensive to man. Imagine how offensive they are to God.
Regarding the past/present/future discussion... maybe we could start a new topic to discuss that further. I would like to hear how you defend your position that unbelievers (no faith) still share in the inheritence in light of the doctrine of Justification by Faith, not works. How can they be the children of promise if they don't believe in the promise?
You wrote:"I would like to hear how you defend your position that unbelievers (no faith) still share in the inheritence in light of the doctrine of Justification by Faith, not works. How can they be the children of promise if they don't believe in the promise?"
Wow! How did we get to this point??? What has lead to your conclusion that my position is "that unbelievers (no faith) still share in the inheritence in light of the doctrine of Justification by Faith, not works"???????????????
What have I said that has lead you to this conclusion???
A few posts back you wrote, "All of these facts are true for every child of God whether they are aware of them, whether they believe them or NOT! They do NOT become true because the are believed! Rather, they only become ENJOYED when they are believed!"
It was the fact that you stated "All of these facts are true... whether they believe them or NOT!" Did I misunderstand what you said?
I think this led me to believe you were saying that unbelievers in the promises of God could still partake of them. Your statement seems to overlook the fact that God has ordained that we become children of promise by a simple act of faith. Is this not what you intended to say?
Please notice that I said these things concerning "every child of God", not of the unconverted!
Yes, it is certainly true that people becomwe childrenof God BY FAITH in Christ.
However, there are many facts that are true for every child of God from the moment of conversion onward. These facts are true regardless of whether they know those facts or not. Even if they are aware of what scripture says but do not believe what scripture says about who they are in Christ,or where they are seated...the facts are facts!
But the only Christians who actually enjoy those realities are those who actually believe them and rest upon them!
Okay, I see what you are saying now. I realize it is not possible to always explain in great detail exactly what one is trying to say. Some understandings must necessarily be assumed. Otherwise, one has to write an entire treatise just to make a simple point. But sometimes that is necessary because the other person involved in the discussion may not have knowledge of the very thing we are assuming they know.
When you made your statement I thought you were including basic foundational truths such as the forgiveness of sins. It was listed as one of the items you cited. But now I see you were simply making a point that even if we don't know everything God has promised to us many are still ours by virture of the fact that we have placed our faith in Jesus as our Lord and Savior. I must admit it was a little confusing when you used "child of God" and "don't believe" his promises in one sentence. There was an apparent contradiction I could not resolve in my mind.
Let's see. Where do we go now? I have to review where we were before we took that little sidebar to clarify things.
I guess if we have pretty much concluded that we do not need to atone for our own sins and certainly do not go through purgatory to purify us then we can move on to the two questions you posed. I would like to pursue those a bit further. Maybe we should start two new topics.
Here are the questions you asked:
-What purity is required to enter heaven?
-When do Christians "go to heaven"?
I can start the first topic if you would like to start the second.
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