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With the death of my uncle recently and our neighbor--the one I asked prayers for because she couldn't breath-- I have been faced with another question. My neighbor was raised Catholic and converted to Judaism to marry. She professed she didn't beleive in Jesus but prayed to God. She told a story about a Protestant minister who explained to her that if she did not accept Christ she would go to hell. She reasoned that she was a good person and she did not believe God would do that to her. Then someone reminded me that there will be people in heaven who have never heard of Christ let alone read a Bible.
So my question is, in light of the verse which says "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved," (Act 4:12) how can this be? Does it come down to this... that those who never heard but do will be saved and those who heard but never did will not? I'm reminded of Romans, chapter 1 and 2.
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Hey Jeff L, This is a huge point of contention [read, speculations everywhere] within the church community. There are probably thousands of variants!
Here are just some of the things I have heard folks speculate about: Is hell a place at all, or just the grave? Will sinners be eternally punished, or just nirvana out? Is hell eternal? Are there "levels of torment"? (Some believe there are different "places" in hell. These vary in severity of punishment from short term "simple" separation from The Lord's presence, all the way to eternal fire and brimstone torment.)
I can only tell you that I personally believe (from looking at what evidence there is) [speculation warning] that hell is an eternal spiritual and physical place.
I can also tell you that I once experienced The Lord's presence to a degree that I understood that it would be more "comfortable" to be eternally separated from Him (no matter the circumstances) than to be in His presence for eternity in a sinful state.
I understand this sounds NUTS ...and I do not deny that I have since questioned that experience... but I do fill I understand (to some degree) the necessities of hell.
Oh, and one more thing. I have never studied this out in The Interlinear. My head (at least) would love to hear an "easier" truth about this whole topic... so I am certainly open to hear proof to the contrary.
I guess my first logical question is; If hell is not really all that bad, or doesn't even exist at all, then why did Jesus suffer so much... to save those who come to Him from so little (or nothing at all)?
Jeff- Are you wondering about the person who has never heard about Christ- wheher they can be saved, and if so, how? Or is it more along the lines of what is the nature of heaven and hell?
If it is the first- the best answer I have ever heard to that is if we believe in the revealed character of God- mainly that He is perfectly loving and perfectly just- than we don't have to worry about the answer. He will act towards each individual with perfect love and justice. Of course this answer doesn't always curb the curiosity of the human mind, so I would also speculate acording to Romans 1 and 2 (as Jeff brought up) that God judges the heart- whether or not it has responded in belief to the amount of revelation that it has recieved. I just read a biography of Hudson Taylors life. It told of a story of a devout Budhist that Hudson met in China that had come to him because Budism didn't answer the problem of sin, and how to reach God in light of this sin. This man had never heard of Jesus, and the minute that he heard the gospel he responded in belief imediately. Later, he asked Hudson how long Great Britan had known this good news. When he found out it had been for hundreds of years he began to weep, saying that just as he had, his father before him had always been searching for the truth. He wished that someone had come earlier so his father could have heard. So was the response of this mans father to the limited revelation he had enough? If he believed in faith the revelation that he had I think that it probably was (believed there was a creator who was holy. Belived he himself was unholy and was searching for an answer to this problem). Of course this all has to do with belief and faith vs. good works. Your neighbor seems to be relying on her own good works- which of course would not save her even if she really had never heard the gospel.
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Truely, the saddest us against them position which casts so much discredit on the traditional church organizations. For what it is worth: My savior is not a failure- He came to save the people of the world from the eternal penalty of our "sins" (disobeying Him) Since nothing could stop Him, that is exactly what He did, unconditionally, like it, admit it, welcome it or not. Our reaction makes no difference to what He already did. But He can now offer us much, much more- a close partnership both in this life and the next- all of that remains at our option. It is very sad that many feel the O.T. threats are needed to keep people in line. Love responding to love is the far better portion. Don't let the controllers fool you. Rich
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Fascinating. Then one must wonder why Jesus was recorded to have said this, in Matthew 7:13-23? (This is from The Greek Interlinear.)
Into come you through the cramped gate. That broad the gate and spacious the way the one leading from life into the destruction, and many are the ones coming into through her. What? Cramped the gate and having been constricted The Way, the one leading from the destruction into the life, and few are the ones finding her.
Be you heeding from the false prophets who any are coming toward you in apparel of sheep. Inside, yet they are snatching wolves! From the fruits of them you shall be knowing them. No any they are culling.
[Do you get] grapes from thorns, or figs from star-thistles? Thus, every good tree is doing ideal fruits, the yet rotten tree is doing wicked fruits. A good tree is not able to be doing wicked fruits, not yet rotten tree to be doing ideal fruits. Every tree not doing ideal fruit, is being out stricken and cast into fire.
Consequently, surely from their fruits you shall know them. Not every one the saying to me, "Master, Master!" shall be coming into The Kingdom of The Heavens, but the one doing The Will of The Father of Me, the which is in The Heavens. Many shall be declaring to Me in that day, "Master, Master! Did not to the Your Name we prophecy, and to the Your Name we did cast out demons, and to the Your Name we do many powerful deeds!?!"
And then I shall be avowing to them, "I never knew you. Be you departing from Me the ones acting the lawlessness."
quote: Jeff- Are you wondering about the person who has never heard about Christ- whether they can be saved, and if so, how? Or is it more along the lines of what is the nature of heaven and hell?
The first, Jeanne, but with some qualifications. I know that people living before Christ could express faith in the coming Christ (The Anointed One, The Messiah) but could not have faith in Jesus the Christ as we know him from scripture. So the question really narrows down to two things:
1) Can a person be saved without knowing Jesus Christ but knowing there is a God 2) Is a person saved by doing or hearing (in other words, will those who never heard but have 'fruits' be saved while those who heard but haven't 'fruits' not be saved. The 'fruits' are those of the spirit of God.)
Jeanne, maybe you could simplify your answer. Matthew cited a good passage but didn't explain. And David got close too. I guess I am just looking for a simple opinion from your studies of scripture. We can get into the texts later if they are not apparent to me.
It looks like we all agree that the doing is most important. But what about saved by grace not works? How would that fit into our theology?
Can a person believe in God through the witness of nature even though they don't know him by name nor ever read the Bible? That would really shoot the JW in the Achilles heel.
quote:Jeff L said: Matthew cited a good passage but didn't explain.
Sorry Jeff L, I will explain. There is nowhere in The Bible that flatly states, "If you don't ask Jesus into your heart, by name, this or that exact way, then you are going to hell to burn in the fires thereof, forever." The converse is also true.
Therefore, it would be a speculation (at best) to make any claim. (My speculations are; It isn't so easy to just fall into heaven. The converse is not true.) However, we really have nothing but some evidence, (and vastly differing opinions from that evidence) ...and trust in The loving (and yet just) Creator. I think we simply make our opinion of what a loving God must be like, fit the way we think He should react (since we obviously know). Scary!
So, having said that... good luck!
Matthew
Oh, and one more thing... I think we can pretty much say to ourselves, "If I were God, then I would ____ _____ _______ ___ _____" (fill in the blanks) ...and then understand that He doesn't do thing the way we think He should. Thank God!
Hi Jeff! Re-reading my post I realize it is not that clear- ( am not the best typist for sure!)- but it actually does answer most of your questions. Re-read it and you may be able to straighten out my poorly written sentence structure . Here is a basic recap:
God is perfectly loving and just and will deal with us each accordingly.
We are saved by faith, not works.
As Mathew pointed out, we are not perfectly loving or just and so can only do our best at speculating in any further detail (although scripture certainly helps us in our speculation, our human limitations remain, well, limited).
As the foolish human that I am I will go ahead and speculate further based on the romans 1 and 2 passage that you brought up and say that perhaps God only holds us responsible for the revelation that we have been given and how we respond to it (whether in faith and belief or not). Thus my example of the chinese mans father in Hudson taylors biography and my speculation that he possibly could have been saved, though never having heard the name of Jesus.
I was finishing another topic so I jumped on this one to give you a quick reply.
I think there is scriptural backing for your speculation in your last paragraph. Paul told the idol worshippers that God winks at our ignorance. In another place it says that if we know to do it and we don't then it is sin to us. And, again, without faith it is impossible to please God and anything not done in faith is sin. And faith comes by hearing. All of these together would seem to affirm your speculation that God holds us accountable for what we know and not what we do not know.
However, just like they say that ignorance is no defense when it comes to civil laws, so too if we have the Bible available and do not bother to find out the will of God then we can't plead ignorance either.
BTW, I know what you mean by "We are saved by faith, not works." But doesn't it actually go like this: We are saved by grace through faith? The other way around tends to give merit to faith when it is only by God's grace. Just a little tickler.
Thanks for your reply. Can you put any verses to these thoughts?
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You are right, I do much prefer the wording "saved by (Gods) grace, through (our) faith." It puts the emphasis on Gods initiation followed up by our response.
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Hey JeanneH, I have found it is "saved by God's grace, through our faith in Christ through the power of The Holy Spirit." This puts the emphasis on God's initiation followed up by The Power of The Holy Spirit to lead us into all things in Christ.
Having come from a knowledge of the "faith message," this is a Biblical answer to why The Lord doesn't always do as we think He should (my wife's miscarriage for example). Our faith has to be in Him, not in our faith. Is that understandable?
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I agree, Mathew. Our faith must be in God. Faith in faith itself is pretty silly, but I know there are "christians" who misunderstand faith in this way. But I think that there is still a response required by us. Maybe it even gives us too much power to say we must say yes to God. Maybe we just have to not say no .
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"Faith in faith" pretty much sums up the way I have heard "faith" preached.
If I could ask you a question? (Since you see this as "silly," [speculation warning] which I think is a good thing.)
How do you view faith when we never really know what The Lord is going to do? I have heard a lot of the "name it and claim it" and "blab it and grab it" preachers (to my own hurt, in some cases) and I know the balance seems to be faith in God... But how do you have faith in Someone who is so unpredictable!?!
Hmmm, Good questions. I think that having faith in faith means that we think that we are at least partialy in charge of our circumstances here on earth. "If I just have enough faith than this or that will happen" type thinking.
Hebrews says that faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. So I think the key is understanding what it is we can hope for with complete assurance- or what are the promises of God. Faith, then, is about holding tight to those things that we know that God has promised us, even when it doesn't seem to us that our circumstances are lining up with those promises. A good example from the Bible is Joseph, who suffered for years in horrible circumstances which he in no way deserved. Later, all the years of suffering culminate in God using him to save his family (who becomes the nation of Israel), as well as many others. God was working all things together for good to those who love Him (paraphrase of rom. 8:28). When Joseh was thrown into jail after doing what was right he probably felt that that God was unpredictable, but really it all made perfect sense. The same went for Abraham when he was asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. The promise was that his offspring would become a mighty nation. His faith came in when he continued to believe God for that promise even in the midst of being asked to do something tat would seemingly hider that promise from being fulfilled.
This I think applies to the original topic of this thread in that if God promises that He is perfectly loving and perfecty just, then I can have faith that He will treat each individual in light of this. It also applies in that it is faith (believing God and acting on that belief) that is a part of salvation, not any form of good works.
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I would concur with Jeanne's assessment. I think she said it very clearly. Everything must be placed on God's shoulders if we are going to have anything reliable and sure at all. He must become responsible for everything. As Jeanne said earlier, our part is just not to say no.
Remember the verse, the trial of your faith works patience. God sometimes lets us wait which works to increase our faith because we learn to go longer periods of time trusting he will be faithful to his promises. At other times he says, No, because the thing we ask for is not for our best good.
What you and I need to remember is that this is not eternal life that we are living now. We are on trial. We should not expect everything now. But when we are proven to be loyal subjects and heaven becomes our home then we will have everything!
quote:Jeanne H. said: I think that having faith in faith means that we think that we are at least partially in charge of our circumstances here on earth. "If I just have enough faith then this or that will happen" type thinking.
Yes! That's the beast!!! Get the ax!!! I'm not used to having it defined so clearly, but I think that pretty much sums up years of teaching in one sentence. How totally wonderful!
quote:God promises that He is perfectly loving and perfectly just, then I can have faith that He will treat each individual in light of this.
I didn't just ask this question... I really pondered it, and I think it's just that simple. I have never really nailed it down quite so well, but that pretty much sums it up again. Now if I can just let go and trust that Love again...
The name-it-and-claim-it concept is based on real promises and that is what makes it so sticky. It is truth that has been perverted. Someone has said that lies need some truth to prop them up. Just as good food becomes a vehicle for delivering poison to unsuspecting victims, so too, truth becomes the vehicle for almost imperceptibly introducing falsehood. When we ask God for something we are to believe we receive it by faith. That is how God has chosen to answer our requests.
So what is so wrong with the name-it-and-claim-it game? The problem is that we are using it to feed our selfish nature. But a selfish nature is not of God but is of the works of the devil. And Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. Therefore, true faith must necessarily starve this defect in our human nature and feed our spiritual nature. True faith, therefore, cannot consist of anything that will feed our selfish natures. It must be totally void of any bragging rights and power. And, it cannot be for the purpose of gratifying that selfish nature, or vengeance, or any such thing that is contrary to God's will. God wants us to live full, happy, lives. But He is careful not to bestow upon us things that will cause our ruin. He gives the right measure of talent to those who are capable of using it wisely. And, in His wisdom, He bestows little on those who cannot benefit from more.
Faith is the key to unlock heavens storehouse of treasures that God holds for our pleasure. But we must ask believing. Prayer is the method of bringing our petitions to God. So faith becomes the key in the hand of prayer that unlocks that storehouse. So often we fail to receive because we do not ask. Why don't we ask? Maybe we don't believe? Maybe we don't trust God? Maybe we are simply ignorant of the blessings that await us? Maybe we place too much importance on our faith and we feel it is too weak to move anything-- even the hand of a loving God who is waiting to answer our petitions. A God that scripture tells us didn't even withhold His only begotten Son but freely gave Him so that we might have all things necessary for life and happiness. This is where I believe the operation of faith comes into play.
(If you stop and think about it, the name-it-and-claim-it game is mostly about getting more stuff, more worldly goods. The whole world is surely God's possession, He made it. But should we be focused on this life? Perhaps the greatest gift we could ask for would be the gift of contentment. We should pray that God gives us a will that is in harmony with His will. Then no matter where we find ourselves we will be happy.)
I think God has chosen faith to combat doubt and mistrust. I believe this stems from the experience of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The serpent led them to distrust God by inserting the single word "not" into God's words. "You shall NOT surely die." And, you know what? When they ate they didn't die-- at least not immediately. This only served to embolden them in their disobedience and caused them to have further doubt about God's intentions concerning them. The fruit tasted good, they didn't die, and after eating it Eve could imagine that she was experiencing a higher plane of existence, just as the serpent who spoke to her so eloquently had claimed to experience by eating of the tree.
But what happened when the voice of God was heard calling to them in the garden? They were afraid. Now they had gone so far in their departure from God that they experienced fear in His presence-- as though He intended to harm them. Perhaps they feared He had come to destroy them because they had "become like gods." Perhaps the serpent was right and eating of the fruit had opened their eyes to God's true motive in restricting them from eating of the tree. But what had they forgotten? They had forgotten that it was God who created them, gave them life, and then created all these things for their pleasure. They had imagined that the serpent was their liberator and benefactor-- that he had come to free them from God's tyranny and bestow upon them a higher existence than God was willing to give.
So what was God to do? Was He to get into a dispute with the serpent or Adam and Eve? Kind of a, 'Did not,' 'Did so' argument of mere words. And this is a huge question for some people... Why did God allow sin? Why didn't He just destroy Adam and Eve and start over? Better yet, why didn't He just destroy Lucifer when he disobeyed? The law of God was perfectly clear that anyone who disobeyed would be killed. So why did God allow Lucifer to live and worse, come to earth, so that he could tempt the pair into sinning against God and by so doing bring all this woe upon mankind? Well, the answer is really simple and I think it helps explain why God chose faith (belief and trust + action) to battle the deception.
There is a plausible answer which is based on what we know of the character of God. Do you know the answer?
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One quotable quote on the so-called faith movement. Dan Betzer said, "God is not your errand boy!"
It gives me the horrors to hear people pray as if they are the King and God is the servant. Or even if they "rebuke Satan" as if he were a naughty child, rather than with awareness that they can in no way take him on, unless they have right reverence toward God.
One thing about "signs and wonders", which is a big facet of "faith", is to remember that "a wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign". Believers should not be seeking miracles for themselves, but for "bread for the lost". The faith movement encourages believers to seek for false signs and satanic wonders by their wrong attitudes and selfish motives. We pray for our daily bread for ourselves, but to pray for the lost "In the name of Jesus Christ, stand up and walk!"
It shouldn't seem extraordinary that God often heals the sinner while allowing the saint to suffer. We "suffer with Christ" and "wait with hope" but "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance".
We are having a family being drawn into our community of families by seeing other families having hope and joy after the death of a child (which they have also experienced). Not false cheer, but "peace that pases understanding". They are literally asking "what is different about you?" and open to the answer!
quote:We are having a family being drawn into our community of families by seeing other families having hope and joy after the death of a child (which they have also experienced). Not false cheer, but "peace that pases understanding". They are literally asking "what is different about you?" and open to the answer!
Hey Laurie Ann, I would qualify this under the, "What satan intends for evil, The Lord will turn to good. Then, once you have been healed, you can help others." Is this pretty much what you are saying?
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Hey Jeff L, Yes... I think. I was once spending time with The Lord, and I felt He revealed the answer to me. I have never looked this up, and I have seldom shared it. This is only what I felt The Lord told me, so please feel totally free to take it, or leave it!
I believe the answer is found in what Lucifer did. He lived in the very glory of God, but became puffed up with pride because he was beautiful, etc. By allowing sin to continue, The Lord insured that we can exist for all eternity and never do what Lucifer did. For all eternity we will know that we are only in heaven because of The Lord's grace.
It is His perfection and grace, not ours, that "makes us into the likeness" of Him. We will never forget this fact. That is what I feel He showed me. I know this is not the orthodox answer...
quote:The name-it-and-claim-it concept is based on real promises and that is what makes it so sticky.
I could not agree with you more. I guess my question is then, what "promises" then should we claim? Good health? Prosperity? Long life?
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Yes, Matthew, the ability of God to take what is evil and use it for good is probably the hallmark of His kingdom, and the most difficult thing for us to comprehend.
As for the "claim it" thing... I can find no proof text for that. We are to "PROclaim the kingdom". "All authority I have given" should result in us asking God "what should I do here?" rather than telling Him what to do. A search for "claim" in the NT is actually pretty negative!
His promises are ours. It doesn't involve brainwashing ourselves to believe things that are nonsensical, but rather knowing what God says and being prepared to pray for the miraculous. Jesus looked for the face in the crowd that seemed to be highlighted by the Holy Spirit, and asked questions to ascertain God's will for that person right then. Very little is said about the time that Jesus "could only heal a few people" because of unbelief, but we shouldn't be thrown by how few miracles there are, but rather proclaim his kingdom all the more earnestly.
The promises of God are "big picture" promises, not a to-do list. As a people, if we live his way and seek his face our lives as a Holy Nation will look very different from our neighbor. But that doesn't mean bad things will NEVER happen to individuals, or that every illness will be healed or every prayer answered.
quote:Laurie Ann Said: A search for "claim" in the NT is actually pretty negative!
His promises are ours. It doesn't involve brainwashing ourselves to believe things that are nonsensical, but rather knowing what God says and being prepared to pray for the miraculous.
*snip*
But that doesn't mean bad things will NEVER happen to individuals, or that every illness will be healed or every prayer answered.
Okay, so having said that, where do I go from here? These things seem to contradict one another. Why not just trust that The Lord loves you, take a stand when you can, and then trust that it'll all work out some day?
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Hey Jeff L, I was raised in this. I listened to Kenneth Hagin almost every day growing up. He died in a coma due to a heart arrhythmia . I found one statement in Wikipedia I have never heard about Hagin. "Peters further traces the movement's deviation from traditional Christian doctrine to Hagin's most controversial tenet of faith: If scripture cannot be found to justify a particular teaching, claim divine inspiration from a {vision/dream/other manifestation} of {God/Jesus/other heavenly figure}." In all my years studying under his teachings, I never heard him say that, and I never heard him teach it, but I don't doubt it.
Anyway, here is the faith healing history URL.["http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith
Also, I think you will find this interesting. "In 1983, two students at Oral Roberts University alleged that the bulk of Hagin's theological teachings were lifted verbatim from the writings of other authors. D.R. McConnell, who wrote his Master's thesis about the Word of Faith movement, alleged that Hagin had plagiarized the writings of evangelist E.W. Kenyon, teaching not only the ideas of Kenyon but also lifting text word-for-word from many of Kenyon's eighteen published works.
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It was more how The Scriptures were put together (to build his case) that was called into question. He was known as "Pap Hagin" for kinda building the Faith Message from Scriptures he "got" from The Bible. Apparently, he got them (his conclusions) from another fellows writings.
Email this page to someone.
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...and I do not deny that I have since questioned that experience... but I do fill I understand (to some degree) the necessities of hell.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Why not just trust that The Lord loves you, take a stand when you can, and then trust that it'll all work out some day?
