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Let's be honest! A person who says they love Christ but cherishes a harsh, unforgiving spirit does not love Christ but their own flesh. When someone hurts them they want to hurt back. They find it difficult to forgive. But Christ gave his life for those who "hurt" him and we are to lay down our life as well.
In fact, to love Christ means to love all that he represents--all right-doing. The spirit of God is "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." They that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If you harbor an evil spirit then you do not love Christ but rather yourself. The works of the flesh are "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like." They which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
If we are led about by a seducing spirit then we do not in truth love Christ.
"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"
In order to love our brother we must have the love of God in us. How are we to love God? By dwelling on his redemptive act on the cross. When we realize the enormity of the debt we owed, a debt which warranted the death of the Son of God on the cross at Calvary, and we look to Jesus hanging between heaven and earth to save us then our hearts are warmed and opened to receive him as our Lord and Saviour.
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Forgiveness is necessary for the Christian; but it is often a misunderstood subject. Most teach to forgive an un-numbered amount of times or seventy times seven. This is scriptural.
Matthew 18:21-22 (KJV) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? [22] Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
The problem is most teach that forgiveness always includes reconciliation. They ignore the other clear teaching in the scriptures that states, “if he repent, forgive him.”
Luke 17:3-4 (KJV) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. [4] And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
For our own well being, we must forgive those who hurt us from our heart. We can’t desire to get even or retaliate against those who hurt us, lest we become like them. We would be guilty of breaking God’s law to love even our enemies if we harbor ill desires toward such a person.
Often overlooked is the fact: to be reconciled to such a person, without their sincere repentance, harms both parties. You might ask how could reconciliation hurt others and yourself. First, we are told to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves (Matt.10:16), to love our enemies and to do good to those who despitefully use us.
Matthew 5:43-44 (KJV) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
This is true; but what exactly is doing good? Sometimes it means helping others. Other times it means not helping them. We must have “tough love”. (I don’t endorse the author of “tough love”; but the term is very appropriate.)
Sometimes love doesn’t mean doing something for another person; but means not doing something for another.
Romans 13:10 (KJV) Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
For the continually abusive person, to forgive and forget will enable him to continue to abuse! The same principle applies to an alcoholic. If you make excuses for him or give him money to buy more drink, you are not helping him. Rather you actually hurt him by enabling him to continue in his destructive way.
For the one who is hurt, to forget the hurt and return for more of the same treatment from the unrepentant person is to continually be abused over and over. Thus, the abused becomes bitter, resentful and angry.
Another example, if you reach out to pet a wolf and are bitten, your first course of action is to nurse the wound. You don’t hate the wolf. You certainly will not put your hand out to be bitten again. You realize the nature of the wolf is to bite. Thus, you keep your distance from the wolve’s mouth. You may feed him (do good); but keep a healthy distance from him. You don’t try to pet him again (reconcile).
Most today feel if you don’t accept other people’s abusive actions, sins, false doctrines, etc. ; but rather reprove such, that you are filled with hate and judgmental. They fail to see what true love is. True love is wise. True love points to Christ. Most forget the first part of the gospel message is to repent! Without true repentance, there can be neither reconciliation to God or to men.
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Yes, what you say about forgiveness is true, yet, this is not the point of this topic. I failed to make that clear. The point of this topic is honesty with ones self with an emphasis on professing to love Christ while hating that which he stands for. I guess it is for this reason that Christ said, "If you love ME, keep MY commandments." Because the carnal mind is enmity against God and is not subject to his law (Romans 8:7), it is necessary for us to experience a new birth. Without which we can never love God or keep his commandments. With which we will naturally love God and be subject to his law. (Opposite of Romans 8:7). Thus, it is not of works, but of faith.
If my reasoning is sound, those who can't forgive lack the faith to believe they are forgiven.
I have to disagree with you that my post is off topic. You see for someone to really search their soul, they have to understand what forgiveness really is and how it ties into reconciliation.
Case in point: A person is offended or abused over and over until they finally stay away from the offender. Many times people around them will prompt them to go back to the abuse for the sake of peace in the family, church, etc. However, if we really look at the problem, if one is constantly offending and another constantly being offended, there is no peace, only a façade of forced peace. The injured party has no peace. The offender is certainly not peaceable.
Often the injured party feels they are at fault for being hurt. They feel they should not be offended and blame is often shifted to them. Thus, the cycle continues. By a false understanding of what true forgiveness is, there can be no true peace. Thus the offended can’t search their soul and find contentment. Neither can the offender repent and find peace.
In order to truly search our own hearts, we must realize it is appropriate to be angry at times. People do things to us that give us ample cause to be angry. It is OK to be angry! We don’t let our anger give way to sin; nor do we give place to the devil by letting the hurt that made us angry continue.
Ephes. 4:25-27 (KJV) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. [26] Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: [27] Neither give place to the devil.
I believe we are looking at the topic from two different points of view. You seem to be emphasizing the need for the offending type of person to search their soul. (Often the offender has been hurt in the past, making it necessary for them to be in control and offensive.) I have pointed out that often the offended person also has trouble searching their soul.
quote: If my reasoning is sound, those who can't forgive lack the faith to believe they are forgiven.
It is possible those who can’t forgive don’t believe they need to be forgiven.
Mike,
Romans 8:6-9 (KJV) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The next verse explains those” in the flesh cannot please God.”
As Jeff stated earlier:
quote: The works of the flesh are "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like." They which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
These works of the flesh do not please Go, nor do they follow the laws or commands of God. Jesus said his sheep hear and follow him and do his commandments. John 10:27; John 14:15; John 14:23
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
You make some very good points but still the focus was not intended to be on forgiveness but rather the life not being in harmony with the profession.
We should talk about another example. If a person says they love Christ but are dishonest in their dealings with others--trying to always get the advantage--then their life demonstrates that they do not love Christ or his ways.
The person who claims to love Christ and yet does not love righteousness is fooling themself. They believe they are walking in the spirit as born-again new creatures but the carnal mind appears to rule their actions. This ties in with Romans 8:7. (Remember, temptation is not sin! Yeilding is sin but does not produce sin. It merely manifests the sin already in the heart.)
I agree the person always trying to get advantage over others would not show Christ's love. There is nothing wrong with a good deal; but it is how you go about getting it that is important. If someone offers you good measure that's great. You should also offer good measure when it's your turn to offer. You should never cheat to get that extra measure though.
If you want I can move the posts about forgiveness.
In your first post under the heading “Let’s be honest with our own soul”, you begin with the subject of forgiveness. Then you mention loving Christ, doing right and finally loving others.
In order to truthfully examine our own soul and motives and how they line up with Christ, we must first understand what forgiveness is, what love is, what sin is, what is right, and so on. If we don’t understand what Christ really taught; but accept only what others popularly say about each issue, we can not examine our soul. Your topic, “life not being in harmony with the profession”, is not a simple issue but covers many subtopics that have to be fully understood before a person can know if they are really in harmony with what they profess.
Often a person is told they are not in harmony with Christ when actually they are. On the other hand, often a person is told they are in harmony with Christ when they are not. Sometimes others tell us this and sometimes we tell ourselves these things.
It takes much study, discernment and many years to be like Christ. I don’t think any of us ever attain complete perfection in our life time. Our perfect position in the kingdom is the gift of Christ. It is not our complete harmony with Christ; for as long as we live in our fleshly bodies, there is a war going on. Even though we may have the best of intentions, sometimes we say or do the wrong thing. Human traits have a way of just popping out when we least want it to. And that is exactly why we need Jesus so much!
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Entering into the new life is not a struggle, but a rest from struggle, right? I mean, if we rely upon our will power to bring our life into harmony with Jesus then we are certainly in for a lifetime of struggle with no productive results. However, if we enter into the rest that Jesus promised then our life is transformed into a new creation which is in harmony with Christ without the human watchfulness associated with being good enough. It isn't the outward behavior that needs fixing, it's the heart that needs renewing.
When Christ lives in our lives we will be in harmony with him--not just some of the time but the entire time he lives within us. We only fail when we are drawn away from Christ by our own lusts: impatience, intemperance, etc. That is why we must live continually by faith in Jesus if we are to remain in Christ and resist temptation. It is not an act of the will power but a loving surrender of the will to Christ--a desire to obey motivated by love.
By looking at the life of Christ and comparing our life to his we can know whether we are resting in Christ or working alone. The life will tell what words hide with guile. There is a growing line of demarcation between the obedient and the disobedient. But no one sits on the fence in the end. They are on one side or the other. Knowledge is good, but the purpose of knowledge is to educate our minds to a true knowledge of God and so we are not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Knowing Christ will help us stand when all around us are being washed away in the flood of false teaching.
quote: When Christ lives in our lives we will be in harmony with him--not just some of the time but the entire time he lives within us. We only fail when we are drawn away from Christ by our own lusts: impatience, intemperance, etc.
Do you think Paul was in harmony with Christ? Looking at his outward appearance, sometimes he was not for he did serve the law of sin with his flesh. However, with his mind he served the law of God. And later, he stated that he had run the race and fought a good fight and kept the faith. Thus, even with strong faith, we sometimes outwardly sin; but it is not from the heart. And how can sin dwell in a believer?
Romans 7:19-25 (KJV) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
2 Tim. 4:7 (KJV) I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
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The body cannot go off and do something apart from the brain. The head seems to be what rules the entire body. Our reasoning powers, if not enfeebled by sin, allow us to choose or refuse. We always have a choice. We are tempted to do things we should not but no one forces us--unless we are unwilling participants such as in the case of rape. We are weakened by unbelief in the promises of God. We are painfully aware of our shortcomings but dwell too much in our inabilities rather than on the side of faith in Christ's ability. Thus, we find no strength to overcome when Christ has made a way of escape.
Paul cried to be free from his body of death. He found the answer in Jesus Christ. In chapter 7 he talks about his struggle trying to keep the law. He wanted to do what was required but found no power within himself to combat his sinful nature. In chapter eight he writes that what the law couldn't do--that is, it could not make him righteous--God accomplished through Jesus Christ by sending his Son in the likeness of our sinful flesh to overcome sin and condemn it. And, the whole purpose was so that the righteousness of the law could be fulfilled in us. Therefore, he concludes, that what legalism could not acheive faith in Christ can for, "the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus [set him] free from the law of sin and death." Thus, Jesus freed Paul from that body of death and gave him a new life walking in the spirit. And Paul proclaims that he has been faithful since that time until his time of imminent departure.
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[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
This is the point in question. How can he serve God with his mind or inward man but serve sin with his flesh? This doesn't make sense. If he has been converted and his inward man loves God, how can his flesh still serve sin? (And he must have been converted inorder for his inward man to love God.)
It seems that eventhough our salvation depends on Christ, there is still a struggle in man to continue in the faith, to overcome, to fight the good fight, to resist the devil. Sometimes we don't win the battle; but we know the war is won in Christ.
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Quote: "This is the point in question. How can he serve God with his mind or inward man but serve sin with his flesh? This doesn't make sense. If he has been converted and his inward man loves God, how can his flesh still serve sin? (And he must have been converted in order for his inward man to love God.)"
This is a start when we say "This doesn't make sense." That's why I think it would be helpful to start defining what the terms are that Paul is using. That's why I ask you what is the "law of God" spoken of in Rom 8:7?
Dear sister you also said "...how can his flesh still serve sin?" In Rom 6:6 it says "...that henceforth we should not serve sin." However, "serve sin" is in a different context here. In Rom 7:25 "...So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." it does not say what you implied by asking "how can his flesh still serve sin?" It said "...but with the flesh (I serve) the law of sin." There is a difference here not just "sin", but the "law of sin". So we need to define or understand what these terms mean, we need to define the terms Paul is using to understand what Paul is saying. We need to define what is the "law of God" in Rom 8:7, what is the "law of sin", because "law of sin" is more or different then just saying "sin". Also, we need to define "inward man or inner man". You said "How can he serve God with his mind or inward man...?" Paul did not say the two terms were the same as your question implies. Paul in one verse uses the term "mind" and in another the term "inward man" he did not say "mind" but "inward man". He could of said if in Rom 7:22 "For I delight in the law of God after the mind", but he didn't he said "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man". It would help you to understand or except just as a possibility, even though you have had "enough" of this conversation, that there is a distinction between human spirit and human soul. We also need to see that there is an "old man" spoken of by Paul and a "new man", an "old covenant" and a "new covenant", an "old law of God" and a "new law of God" both written by the "finger of God" (the Holy Spirit), but one written on tablets of stone and the other on tablets of flesh or the heart. In each verse in Romans when Paul speaks of the "law" we tend to assume he is speaking of the law written on tablets of stone, but there is more then one law and which one Paul is speaking of in any given verse needs to be discerned along with these other terms mentioned above to understand what Paul is saying. I would encourage us to start defining these terms in each verse as we site a verse. Paul also did not say as you stated "...his inward man loves God...", or his mind loves God, instead Paul has said "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" and "the inward man is renewed day by day" and in another place "be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man". Start my defining "sin". We know that sin is lawlessness. Anyway, I got to take off for a meeting with the brothers and sisters. Love you all in the Lord.
The law of sin and death simply stated is that disobedience to God's law must finally be paid with death--body and soul. The law of life in Christ Jesus is obedience to the law of God through faith in Christ.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
This is the same word we heard from Moses in Deut 30 where he tells the people they will die if they are disobedient, but they will live if they obey.
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
"That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life."
Faith, you asked,
quote:This is the point in question. How can he serve God with his mind or inward man but serve sin with his flesh? This doesn't make sense. If he has been converted and his inward man loves God, how can his flesh still serve sin? (And he must have been converted inorder for his inward man to love God.)
Remember that Paul (Saul) was a Pharisee and considered himself blameless in keeping the law. (Phil 3:4-6). But in Romans he says that he would not have known lust except the law said "Thou shalt not covet." He had been taught all his life that blessings attend those who do the things written in the law and curses if not. What would you expect his rational man (inner man/mind) to believe? He wanted to keep the law, YOU BET!! But he found he could not. Everytime he tried to do right he found himself doing wrong. Remember, Paul also said, "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." There was no way he being carnal (Romans 7:14) could keep the law which is spiritual (Romans 7:14, last part).
Realizing he is a sinner by looking into the perfect law he feels condemned to death by his own body. He does not find freedom from the curse of the law until Romans 8:1 where he shouts "There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus!" He goes on to explain that what the law could not do--that is, make him righteous--God did by sending his son Jesus to condemn sin in the flesh--to live righteously and show that it is possible for man to keep God's law and God is not unjust for requiring obedience to his law.
But one clincher is verse 2 in chapter 8. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Elsewhere he writes, Reckon yourself to be dead to sin but alive unto God. When we abide in Christ then our life is hid in his and it is no longer we who live but Christ is living in us.
Therefore, John writes, "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not."
quote:It seems that eventhough our salvation depends on Christ, there is still a struggle in man to continue in the faith, to overcome, to fight the good fight, to resist the devil. Sometimes we don't win the battle; but we know the war is won in Christ.
There is a watchfulness for the Christian but it is not a watchfulness in the work of obedience to the law. It is a watchfulness with prayer that we remain in Christ wholly dependent upon him for our strength and righteousness. This faith and continual abiding in Jesus will produce the fruit of righteousness and the life will spontaneously produce works of faith. There is a need to deny self that Christ may enter into the heart. Jesus began his ministry with 40 days of fasting. There is a lesson there for us not to indulge appetite and overtax our minds. I believe over-eating is similar to drunkenness. It benumbs the sensibilities.
"Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
Apparently there is some euphoric feeling that attends a well satisfied body. I am reminded of the warning God gave Israel not to forget him when they entered into the Land of Milk and Honey and were satisfied and in need of nothing. Also, the experience of the Laodiceans comes to mind who said they were rich and in need of nothing. Therefore, they did not seek God earnestly and became luke warm.
I am positive there has been much more pleading with God when food is scarce rather than the giving of thanks when it is plentiful.
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Mike, I do not see the difference you do between the inward man and mind in Paul’s statements. He delights in the law of God after the inward man. What is this law of God that his inward man delights in or we could say loves? Is this law of God the same law of his mind that his fleshly members are warring against? I believe so because in verse 25 he states with his mind he serves the law of God but with flesh the law of sin. It is very clear that the inward man and the mind both delight and serve the law of God and the fleshy members war against this law serving instead the opposite law of sin.
Is there really a difference in the law of sin and sin? Since both terms would be the opposite of the law of God, they are very similar. I agree with Jeff that the law of sin means death to the sinner. Thus, the sinner will reap the consequences of the law of sin unless he repents and follows God’s laws.
[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:5-10 (KJV) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
We see in Rom. 8:7 that the carnal mind or fleshly mind is against God and not subject to his law. It can’t be. However, Paul specified his mind served the law of God and his inward man delighted in the law of God in the previous passages in Rom. 7. He showed that even after the mind becomes spiritually converted, there is still a war between the new man and the old man.
I see conversion as a process in regards to man and his beliefs and actions. Belief in Christ saves; but the habits of sin and the way of looking at things through different eyes takes time. The moment we believe, we are positionally counted perfect in Christ for our salvation. His perfectness is counted for us. Our carnal, fleshly nature must continually be put to death though. For we still war with carnal desires. We don’t forget everything we ever thought or believed at the moment of conversion to be totally lined up with the perfect knowledge of God. Isn’t that the reason we study the word of God? His disciples witness and teach us all things Christ taught because we don’t instantly obtain that knowledge upon conversion.
Here in Col. 3 they are told to mortify or put to death various sins. It appears that the moment we are saved, we are not suddenly perfect in our flesh; but have to put these things to death. Thus, the war that Paul speaks of.
Col. 3:5-10 (KJV) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: [6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: [7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. [8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. [9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; [10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Again in Ephes. 4 The Christians are told to put off the old man and his fleshly desires.
Ephes. 4:22-32 (KJV) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; [23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; [24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. [25] Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. [26] Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: [27] Neither give place to the devil. [28] Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. [29] Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. [30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. [31] Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: [32] And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
I believe this is the race that Paul spoke of, to continually put to death whatever we see in our lives that is against God’s law. As one matures and grows in Christ, the battles should become less often as our flesh nature dies and we become more Christ-like. On the other hand, as we become more Christ like, we may just see more and more that need to be put to death. We must always remember it is Christ in us that actually puts these things to death, not ourselves.
Jeff, Yes, Paul had been a Pharisee with a carnal mind which can not serve God. However, the passage in question in Romans is after his conversion for his inward man and mind are serving God----something he never did as a Pharisee. ( He claimed to; but Christ said they actually served their father the devil.)
quote:Jeff, Yes, Paul had been a Pharisee with a carnal mind which can not serve God. However, the passage in question in Romans is after his conversion for his inward man and mind are serving God----something he never did as a Pharisee. ( He claimed to; but Christ said they actually served their father the devil.)
The point is that in Romans 7 he is speaking of a time when he wanted to do what was right but was powerless to do so. He is referring to the carnal mind that cannot be subject to the law of God. Whereas the converted heart delights to do God's will.
In the first case, the carnal mind may appreciate the blessings that attend right behavior. This is pure legalism where works are done in exchange for favors. But without Christ it is impossible to bring it into subjection to God's law. Therefore, Paul must be speaking of his experience before faith in Christ. He knew he must do right to receive the blessings but even then he couldn't bring himself to comply. This has to be his experience of walking in the flesh before his conversion.
In the later case, Christ dwells in the converted heart by faith. The flesh may still be tempted but Christ dwelling in the heart controls the lusts of the flesh. It is by faith in Christ, not by our own works.
Denying the flesh of what it lusts after is quite different from not being able to keep oneself from giving the flesh whatever it craves. I would think that scripture is very plain that when we are Christ's it is no longer our life to live but rather he lives in us. The question then becomes one of Christ's ability to control the lusts of the flesh and does not rest in our weakened natures.
"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires." --2 Peter 1:3,4
There are many possible problems here.
we don't know this and therefore can't have faith in something we don't know.
we don't believe this and so we find ourselves without the power that comes by faith.
we don't want to believe this because it requires self denial.
we base our faith on our feelings and since we don't feel righteous we doubt.
we put more stock in the lies of the enemy than we give credence to the promises of God.
Whatever the reason, love of sin lies at the root of the cause.
Does the Bible teach that converted Christians continue their life in the flesh as before while only their mind in brought into submission to God's will? Or, does the Bible teach that while they are tempted by the lusts of the flesh they are not yielding to serve the flesh but are overcomers in Christ.
The real question is, what does it mean when the Bible says that our old man dies and we are buried with Christ? Does it mean our old ways are gone and we become new creations? Or, does it mean that only in desire (mind) do we serve God but our flesh (actions) continues to do those things which are inconvenient and which we do not want to do?
Let's review some scripture since neither you or I can authoritatively answer this question.
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: . . . Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."
This is definitely talking about conversion--a new birth. Notice the next verses describe our past life.
"For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:"
But there is an obvious change in the outward life of a converted Christian.
"Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you."
Again, the topic of excessive eating and drinking is mentioned. Jesus warned that in the last days men would be eating and drinking and carrying on generally as if life would continue but what they didn't realize is that Jesus' coming was at hand and would catch them unprepared as a thief in the night.
Therefore, instead of gratifying our flesh we need to keep it under control and deny ourselves things which tend to control us. We need to practice moderation, temperance, and self-denial rather than living as though there were no tomorrow. The call is to fasting and prayer rather than eating and drinking and partying.
"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."
Surely, Christ has loved us more than we love him. Yet, while we profess to love him with all our hearts we need to become intelligent with regard to every opportunity and privilege that his sacrafice has purchased for our redemption. God's plan for us is to fully redeem us from sin. If we understood the perfection of character which is Christ's then we would understand that any imperfection of character is sin. This is true because it is our privilege to receive the life of Christ into our own bodies. The Holy Spirit teaches us this fact in Titus.
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world."
Don't think within yourself that you can improve yourself or present to God some good work to earn his favor. That is not what Titus is saying. Titus is talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit governing our conscience and guiding our thoughts and motives. This is salvation by faith in Jesus, not salvation by works.
Human works are always imperfect. But God's work is perfect. Nothing is perfect until all that needs to be done has been completed. When God finished his perfect work of creation in six days he said, "It is very good," and so he rested (ended his work) on the seventh day. When Jesus died on the cross he said, "It is finished." He had finished the work that his Father had given him to do. His work was perfect and complete and so he gave up the spirit and, again, rested on the seventh day.
If we truly love Jesus then our life, both inward and outward, will be in harmony with his life. "let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
Profession is easy. Living in Christ requires denial of self. The less of self you retain the more room for Christ. This could be our struggle.
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