quote: I am confused as to what point you are trying to make. Just what are you saying happens when the unwise virgins go to buy oil? Do they succeed? How do we know? I don't believe it is a valid deduction that there is oil to be had simply because the wise tell them to go and buy for themselves.
Hi Jeff,
I guess what I need to know from you is if you believe that He who has authored it will finish it?
The second question- I assume you have been around for awhile, if you have than you may have noticed in any body of believers only a small percentage actually seem to show much real growth. Many are really not much different from any decent unbeliever. So if you agree that there are very few pursuers of Christ in reality than what happens to all those who are not pursuing? Is it "puff" they attend the big mock judgement or perhaps it's you were a bad boy, weep , weep, I'm sorry-okay your in? You said at some point I was assuming what you believe so please enlighten me?
This is a very difficult format I wish we could just sit down together and have a continuous time of sharing. Unfortunately I live in Northern California. If your ever passing through let me extend an invitation to you and any brither or sister to take hospitality from my wife and myself.
Oh by the way if I say this is mine go get your owm it does mean that i and the person I am talking to know there is more. Even if they have to go to the store and "buy" it. later al
Hi Al,
Yes, I do believe that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.
Regarding your second question... We will be rewarded with what we pursue. If we pursue the world instead of Jesus then the love of the Father is not in us and we must perish with the world.
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Hi Jeff, So can I conclude that you believe believers truly born again can loose their birthright? Or, are you saying that a person who confesses Christ but has the fruit of the flesh in them is not really born again?
That a person may not be born again in reality is certainly a possibility, but what I think you just said is that a person who is truly a born again son of God can be rejected and suffer the lose of eternal life. Is that what you are saying?
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Well, Al, that depends. I don't think a truly born again son of God will be rejected. But, scripture does allude to those who, knowing God's grace, turn again to the mire or the vomit.
But, I need something from you first before I finish my answer. I would like for you to give me a brief description of a born again person so I can tell if we are on the same page. Then I will give appropriate scripture to substantiate my proposition.
Do you believe in the doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved?" A doctrine that teaches profession and belief is everything?
Which of the following persons would you consider a truly born-again son of God?
1) A person who talks about God, or a person who is like God? 2) A person who professes to know God, or a person who obeys God? 3) A person who professes to love God, or a person who loves his fellow man? 4) A person who hears the word of God, or a person who does the word of God? 5) A person who boasts they are saved, or a person who daily trusts in the merits of Jesus for salvation? 6) A person who died once and claims to be saved, or a person who dies daily?
Well, you get the idea. Can you give me a little word picture of such a person?
Actually the answer is in the reality of what it means to be born and what it means to be a son.
I do not know if you have any children but if you do what makes them your children?
A) If you have a son and he says he is not your son does that nullify him being your son?
b) If you should caste your son out of the house to suffer the consequences of his foolishness in order to discipline him does that make him your son.
C) And if he continues in disobiediance does that make him not your son?
I am not being coy or obtuse in how I answer this. I don't enjoy massive "word serch" initiated evidences but I will paraphase a few "We are partakers of the Divine nature Peter "Don't you know that the Holy Spirit indwells you" Paul "I and my Father are one and you and I are one" Lord Jesus I am the Life and I came to give you Life "unless you are born from above ...
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And how are you born again? Believing is not being born again- the devils believe and tremble. Signing a believers card is not being born again. Getting baptized just gets some folks wet. It takes death to self will 1st. Then what do yo do with a dead body? You bury it. We are buried with christ in baptism. We are born again of the Spirit with the baptism of the spirit, which scripturally can be strongly argued will produce an obvious physical manifestation. See Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. Of blood water and spirit. I believe the one baptism is 3 fold. Blood- applied at repentence, Water by immersion in Jesus name, and Immersion in teh Spirit of God (Christ) with the infilling of the Holy Ghost, scripturally evidenced by teh accompanying manifestation of speaking in other tongues. (See above references)
-------------------- Acts 2:38-The Seal of Salvation
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Yet, the purpose for the speaking in tongues is for the edification of the saints. The evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the life. As Paul says, "The carnal mind is enmity against God and is not subject to his law; neither, indeed, can be." Something must happen--the new birth--to remove the enmity and bring us into obedience to God's law. The old man must die and a new creature born. All things become new.
Yet, from the evidence of scripture it would appear that even a son of God can be rejected. Rebellion broke out among perfect angelic beings in heaven and they were cast out. Rebellion happened with two perfect human beings in the Edenic paradise and they were cast out of their home.
Now, they remained children of God but they could not be allowed to eat of the Tree of Life for fear that sin would be perpetuated for all time. From that time forward all humans have needed to die and be reborn. But does this mean that in their second state of righteousness they are less prone to sin than they were in the first state of perfection? Only as they remain in Christ by faith.
We are told in Nahum 1:9 that sin will not arise a second time. That is after it has been destoyed in the later part of Revelation--the lake of fire. But Hebrews speaks about a person who has tasted salvation and slipped away. It says there remains nothing to draw them back.
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
I believe the doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" can be very dangerous. Not that I believe that a person cannot have an abiding assurance of their salvation. No, no, that is not what I am saying. I am saying, we all know the dangers of teaching that someone has attained the object. They sit down and feel very comfortable where they are at. And, when a person is not growing, they are dying. We are told to admonish and be watchful to the end.
So I hope we have answered Al's question about "Once Saved." If so, we can get back to our Ten Virgin discussion. I've mostly forgotten why we started this topic. Can someone remind me?
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The parable of the 10 Virgins is a lesson on Spirit and truth in my mind. Notice these are virgins- representing the church. Unspotted, pure. They have lamps representing teh tru Word of God. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. And they all had possession of oil, representing the Holy Ghost. Old Testament annointing was done by oil. New Testament annointing is done with the Spirit and still represented by oil- elders to the sick. The lesson to me is that even the true bride having Spirit and truth can lose out by not staying filled with the Spirit of God. Titus 3:5 says that we are not saved byworks of righteousness which we have done, but by the washing of regeneration (read-baptism) and the RENEWING of the Holy Ghost. It requires more than a casual walk-it requires a committed walk.
-------------------- Acts 2:38-The Seal of Salvation
I believe your post sums up the essence of the parable. We must wage a continual battle against self and a willingness to be molded by God. Yet, this is not a human struggle but a loving faith in Jesus.
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
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