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The phrase "walk in the spirit" is thrown around a lot by Christians. But what is the Biblical picture of this experience?
To start, it may be appropriate to gather a small picture of who we are by nature. I think it will serve us well to contrast who we were without Christ with who we should be in Christ.
(In light of our recent discussions I am including many different translations. I think they are all good. Choose your favorite. Or, better yet, read them all for a well rounded perspective.)
Romans 8:7 says it most concisely:
KJV "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
NIV "the sinful mind[a] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."
AMP "[That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God's Law; indeed it cannot."
CEV "Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws."
WE "People who think about the things of this life are God's enemies. They do not obey God's law. They cannot obey it."
NLV "The mind that thinks only of ways to please the sinful old self is fighting against God. It is not able to obey God's Laws. It never can."
Now, if this is a picture of walking in the flesh, then if conversion is a turn-around in a new direction, what is the picture of walking in the spirit?
You don't have to give a complete answer but if you would contribute at least one verse that would help. So pick wisely!
Good topic. I would say that walking in the Spirit is walking in the power of the Spirit. Paul talks a lot about the demonstration of power. The kingdom of God is not in words but in power. The power to live in the holiness of God. Putting on the whole armour of God or the armour of light is akin to that. We can't make our own spiritual armour. We have need of God's grace and His provision. A person who walks in the Spirit can't sin since he is not operating in human power. His body and soul have become tools of the Holy Spirit. We become "enslaved" to God in this way. I believe that this kind of depth is rare in our days because our faith is weaker than ever. Also our doctrine is against Spirit control. We are against such a full surrender. We want to add God to our lives for the most part and not lose our lives to take on a new spiritual mantle. We wouldn't recognize ourselves nor would our friends. We would no longer fit in. I get hung up here at times. Some don't trust because they fear if we let go we will become possessed by a wrong spirit.
I see walking in the Spirit like the power of a fridge magnet that holds up a certain thickness of papers. When the papers are too thick, ie. when our flesh or our souls dominate, we fall to the ground and walk as any man. However, when we are "thinned out" and made weak through the Cross of Christ, the power of the magnet keeps us above the ground and we walk as saints on the Earth. We are kept in a heavenly place by the Spirit. The power is "bought" by faith.
I personally have been in and out of this state for the past 28 years. Sadly, mostly out! I find it extremely difficult to reckon myself as dead to this world at all times. I go through personal revivals and I'm back in for a while. Then I fade away slowly as I let the grace leak out. When I am in the Spirit my vision (sight) is altered. I have at times walked in light...with light shimmering through my sight. Like a helmet of light. I'm not speaking metaphorically here. As this power diminishes through eartly distractions, I am still left with an amazing peace. As a young believer, I would panic and lose even the peace! However, with time, I have learned to be happy with whatever level of grace I was presently experiencing. Happy with but not satisfied!
Most believers I know don't believe they have such a powerful life support system built in to them at the new birth; a system that kicks in when we let go of our lives to Christ. So then what I'm saying may not make much sense to them. We are called to that level in the Bible, however. Surrender and fervency. Strength and honour. Death and resurrection life.
When the Son of Man returns will He find faith on the Earth?
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John- I loved your answer to this- it is beautiful- and I agree! It is all about surrender! Offering ourselves as a living sacrifice! Dying to ourselves! Picking up our cross daily and following Him!
What results? A powerfuly changed life!!! These changes are spoken of in more detail many times in the New Testament- Rom 13:12-15; Col 3:5-15; Gal 5:1-26; 1 Pet 1:13-2:3. They use terms like: put on in the Spirit...vs take off...., or put to death...; the fruit of the Spirit is... vs if you follow the desires of the flesh...; and now...vs get rid of...
I have personaly watched God change me in many of the ways that these passages talk about, as I have learned to surrender myself to Him! When I came to Christ in college my life was an absolute mess- I exhibited many of the neg qualities mentioned in the above passages. But God has changed so many of these issues in my life through the years, and continues to today! These past 2 years of house church has oppened my eyes to some of the selfish ambition and pride that I struggle with, as well as putting fear of people over the fear of God. It is difficult to admit these things to God and surrender myself anew to Him, but what a thrill to experience Him at work in these areas of my life- and to see myself becoming more like Him!
This is basicaly speaking- what I see as "living by the Spirit".
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"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." Gal. 5:25 I believe this means that if we are alive in the Spirit let us also remain in the Spirit: that if we have been made alive in the spiritual nature then let us draw continually from that nature. I liken walking in the Spirit to breathing through gills as opposed to lungs. As new creatures we can now breathe in "water" or the Spirit. If we have been given gills then let us walk in water (Spirit). Only the flesh is drowned when we walk in water (Spirit).
I agree that a house church setting is a superior enviroment for growth. The danger is looking to others to have our own carnal needs met. It depends what we're after. We can seek to feed the wrong part of us. That is a problem we take with us everywhere if we have it. It is just not as likely to be exposed elsewhere but in an intimate setting. I think a year in house-church is worth 7 in an IC church in the subject of growth. Especially if there are discerning brethren among us.
Here is a verse(s): 2 Cor. 10:2-5 Paul here was bold to declare the difference between walking according to the flesh and according to the Spirit. The difference; power!
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What? Your Bible doesn't have Rom 13:15? Just kidding- mine doesn't either - my bad!
Yes- John- Gal 5:25 is also one of my favorites! And I love the illus you shared along with it! I figure that this means we are to live in the same mysterious way we first came to Christ! Keeping us focused on God's power and not on what we can do.
It is interesting you brought up 2 cor 10- we actually just talked about that passage in church- a similar cross ref to it is 1 cor 2:1-5. It is like Paul strove to make sure his own gifts did not interfere with Gods powerful message in any way. He saw clearly that Gods power was more easily demonstrated through his own weekness. He is certainly a good example of living by the Spirit.
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My 2 cents: It is possible to allow expressions like this to be vague in our minds, whereas I think God's purpose is for us to focus on very concrete issues. Recently I've talked to people who believe they are "walking in the Spirit" when it sounds to me like they are blathering symbolism so that I have no idea what they are talking about!
I think "To Walk In The Spirit" may mean to have the ability to do what God says, when it contradicts what the World, The Flesh and The Devil are trying to persuade you to do,
"Walk in the spirit and you will not obey the lusts of the flesh" is the heart, as has been said.
God said through Moses, "I set before you life and death... Choose Life", and then he listed exact behaviors that would give life or give death. We know that most of them failied - they didn't have the Spirit resident inside them, as we can! But, from time to time someone would have the Spirit, and have the power to do much more than they would without him!
Another thing I have noticed through the years is that true believers get "Sweeter as the Days Go By" just like Jesus, and carnal people get more and more sour as the days go by! To me, that is the greatest evidence of the Spirit!
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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You know, as I read some of the scriptures presented there appear to be a lot of action verbs calling us to do things or not do other things. Can we get a proper understanding of our part in the plan of salvation? Otherwise, if we come to rely on our efforts we fall under the conviction of Col. 2:23, quoted here from the ESV version.
Col 2:20-23
"20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh."
That is the key, isn't it? "Stopping the indulgence of the flesh." How do we accomplish this?
But Laurie is right when she said, "It is possible to allow expressions like this to be vague in our minds, whereas I think God's purpose is for us to focus on very concrete issues." That is why I asked this question. We banter this expression around so casually that sometimes I think we forget what it truly means.
While reading your verses I came across some I like. Again, in the ESV version. This seems to complement Romans 8:7 nicely because it talks about how we, as God's enemies, have been reconciled to Him through Jesus.
Col. 1:21-23
"21(AZ) And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind,(BA) doing evil deeds, 22he has now reconciled(BB) in his body of flesh by his death,(BC) in order to present you holy and blameless and(BD) above reproach before him, 23(BE) if indeed you continue in the faith,(BF) stable and steadfast, not shifting from(BG) the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed(BH) in all creation[g] under heaven,(BI) and of which I, Paul, became a minister."
Again, Laurie wrote,
quote: "Another thing I have noticed through the years is that true believers get "Sweeter as the Days Go By" just like Jesus, and carnal people get more and more sour as the days go by! To me, that is the greatest evidence of the Spirit!"
How true! Scripture says that it is pride which causes contention. (Prov 13:10). When self is all-alive then we find contention and strife and conflict and disagreement and impatience. I should have just listed Galatians 5.
I think it is essential that self die in order to walk in the spirit. What does death of self look like?
You said- I think it is essential that self die in order to walk in the spirit. What does death of self look like?-
If I may try to put my thoughts into this... I think the idea of effort obviously requires us to do something. Death to self begins rather with a willingness to BE something. We can never become spiritual by mere effort. Instead we must prove to God that we are serious about letting our old life go. This is rather a circular way of putting it since even the will to do this comes from God. So then, I would say we must prove our WILLINGNESS to surrender to God's will. He will never take us further than we wish to go. Not my will be done but Yours. There is also the aspect of trusting in God. Then, God will break us. This is a spiritual operation that only God can do. A person who has felt the weight of the Cross is a person who is broken according to the flesh. Such a person no longer trusts himself, but submits all to God. Such a one is no longer whole without God. He has been spoiled for this world. The lure of the world has gone dim. He has been "weaned" of his previous life force. I think this happens in degrees, to the point where one has totally lost hope in anything but Christ. I think suicidal people feel somewhat this way, but without the life source that is by faith. So then it is quite impossible to see just the dead to self part without seeing the new life part as well. Unless you are looking at a suicidal person.
Seems our only part is a natural response to the outpouring of God's love for us (Romans 2:4) at a time when we were still His enemies. (Romans 5:8-10). A reciprocal love response, if you please. (Gal 5:5-6). Which, if received, must necessarily turn our hearts from a love of the world to a love of God. (1 John 2:15-17). Perhaps our struggle is against the draw of this world on our flesh--a struggle to maintain faith in Jesus. (Romans 8:5,13; Gal 5:17) To walk according to faith and not by sight. (2 Cor 5:7) To walk trusting that God will reward rather than seeking earthly reward.
I'm glad you said, "WILLINGNESS to surrender to God's will." The notion that we can surrender is erroneous. In fact, perhaps all that we can do is be willing to be MADE WILLING to surrender. This too must be a gift from God, not having it in our mortal bodies, our carnal flesh. One Christian author put it this way. "Lord, take my heart for I cannot give it. Keep it pure for I cannot keep it." It then becomes an act of faith believing that Jesus hears and fulfills our request. Does God answer your request? I think He allows us to fail in our own strength until we reach the point where we see it is all of Him or it is nothing. God resists the proud but honors the humble. (James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5).
I'm not comfortable with the idea that we must prove our willingness unless you mean that we demonstrate that we desire Christ enough to let go of anything else--which is what I think you are saying at second and third reading. Perhaps we "prove" we are not froward or at least malleable to God's working.
There are many people today who feel that to let self die means cowardice or low self-esteem. They feel that their manhood is jeopardized by such a compromise. What they fail to understand is that a true man is mature and can yield his opinion, his will, his way and is not easily provoked nor driven to anger. A true man possess all his emotions and has full control over his body. He does not allow either his body (feelings) or emotions to control the situation. His higher intelligence reigns over his being.
Sadly, many who do realize the merits of maturity are attempting to better themselves through humanistic methods. As Michael Jackson sings, "I'm starting with the man in the mirror. I'm asking him to change his ways." "If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make a change." We know, however, that while human effort may modify the behavior it doesn't change the heart. Only Christ, our Creator, can change the heart. Then from a pure heart will flow pure actions and words. Then, and only then, will we be confident to have the Lord judge us.
Now, can you add a scripture or two to cement our faith in what you have written?
Isaiah 1:18-20 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord, "Though your sins are ike scarlet, They shall be white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.
If you are WILLING and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; Bt if you REFUSE and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
You said: "We know, however, that while human effort may modify the behavior it doesn't change the heart. Only Christ, our Creator, can change the heart. Then from a pure heart will flow pure actions and words. Then, and only then, will we be confident to have the Lord judge us."
Right on! I once shared Deut. 30:6 with a Jewish friend of mine and he thought I'd made a mistake as it stated that it was God doing the circumcising. He was shocked that it didn't relate to something he had to do. This speaks of the New Covenant, of course. I love this verse (I have it written over a door post)
Thanks Jeanne, just the verse I had in mind!
God tries the reins (kidneys) and the heart. God tries us in the fire of affliction. He purges us as silver by removing the dross. We prove to God we are serious as we are proved. Willingness and obedience, as Jeanne has written. Remember Abraham's trial on MT. Moriah when the angel of the Lord said: "for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son from me." Gen. 22:12 Abraham proved his willingness through obedience, and he inherited a great blessing.
Since God knows in advance what we will do, He won't take us farther than we are able. That is His mercy. In Hebrew a trial also represents an elevation. So if we pass we grow further. Would God have us fail and be discouraged? -Not unless there was a lesson to be learned. A lesson of humility. The more mature we are to become the more trials we must face. God's eyes and ears search for those who will listen and understand; those who take God's words to heart.
There is a time to let things go. Even a child who shares a toy with another is deemed more mature than one who won't. He (the child) has proved his willingness by sharing. For Abraham, at the level he was at, it was his only son. God sees all things and he knows us very well indeed. Nothing escapes Him. So we are showing Him our willingness or our lack thereof all day long.
John, did you notice the parallel between the life of Abraham and that of Jesus? Each was brought to greater and greater trials until at last came the trial of death. Phil 2:5-8; Hebrews 2.
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Hmm. Although Abraham wasn't being personally sacrificed... I think, if I may say so, that Abraham is being compared to God Himself; as a father who is willing to give up his only son. If God had never found a man who was this willing, would He have sent His only Son? This is, of course, a circular argument as well since God built into us the capacity for obedience. Still, Abraham was proved before being approved on such a high level.
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Yes, John, you are more correct. However, I think Abraham, being 100+ years old, would have given his life to save his son. So the death of his only begotten son was a greater test than giving his own life. But yes, Abraham was like the Father who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.
My point was merely that the greatest trial did not come first but Abraham was lead onward and upward in willing obedience until at last he was willing to give that which was of greatest value to him. He did not falter but made steady progress toward maturity, trust, and faith in God.
(An interesting note here. Abraham was not circumcised and then counted righteous. He was counted righteous because of his faith and "he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised." So circumcision had no meritorious outcome. It was only a sign of what he had already received. Baptism is likewise. There is nothing meritorious about baptism. It is a sign of what we have already received by faith.)
Does walking in the spirit constitute conversion? If conversion is referred to as a "u-turn" then what would Romans 8:7 read like if it were talking about a spiritual person rather than a carnal mind? Is there such a concise description in scripture?
For example:
Romans 8:6-8 states, "For to be carnally minded is death...because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
Does Romans 8:12-14 somehow address my question?
"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
Now I have been accused of stressing the law and perhaps you stress grace. What is the middle ground here? Is that where the truth lies? The carnal mind is not subject to God's law and indeed can't be. But how about the spiritual mind. Does it somehow become "willing" and "able" to obey God's law. Not being under the law but living by principles against which there is no law yet fulfilling (or, not breaking) the law by a godly love for others (Gal 5).
Is this what is meant by the New Covenant when God promises to write his law in our hearts and minds? He doesn't write a bunch of don'ts there but rather a bunch of do's. The do's give us no time to break the don'ts. We make no provision for the flesh because Christ dwells in our hearts by faith and we are constantly walking in the spirit of Christ. It's hard to think about stealing from your neighbor while you are spending your time and energy to advance his cause. It's hard to lie about your neighbor when you esteem him greater than yourself. It is hard to covet your neighbors things when you are seeking to supply all his needs. And so on...
So why did God write out basically Ten Don'ts on tablets of stone? Well, the vastness of good we might do for others is limitless in nature. It would be impossible to write out and even harder to follow. And it would be drudgery and stressful. But Ten basic rules are very easy and can help us know when we are NOT walking after the spirit. Everything else, everything good, does not come under law. If someone should try to write out all the good things we might do it would only limit the scope. Thus, if we are walking in the spirit, in things against which is no law, then we are not under the law. Unfortunately, the converse is not true.
Does God (is He able to) change our carnal hearts and minds such that we delight to do his will rather than being unable to please him? I think so. (See Heb 11:6). He reconciles His enemies to Him by removing their condemnation under the law through Jesus' atoning death. He justifies them while they are still sinners. He counts them righteous by faith and not by their unrighteous works. (See Romans 5). Now if we believe all this then how should we be living our lives? By faith! Yet, if you are like me we are so often led to look at our defeats and harbor doubt in God's ability and power to change our hearts and minds.
What do you think? Can you find a better verse? I am still looking. I know it's there.
If I understand you correctly, you are looking for a missing link between a full-blown grace that keeps one from sin altogether, and the daily process of obedience and struggles that a believer has in trying to do what is right.
First, the full-blown kind of grace is in holiness, so that your actions are not your own. As Paul says It is no longer I who live... This is rare in our day, I think. Instead, what we mainly see is what I call "training wheel" grace. This amounts to a spiritual draw according to righteousness until holiness is achieved. Like a planet that has a gravitational force that pulls in the space traveller towards a new world.
I know you like a verse, so...
"...even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." Romans 6:19b
I believe this means that although one may lack in righteousness as yet, one can yield to the drawing power of Christ until one makes it to the surface of "planet holiness." This is a step by step process that takes us from faith to Faith. Most of us find a comfortable orbit and stay there. We like the draw that proximity to this new world affords yet we also like our own freedom. We seek to avoid crashing into the planet's surface. Yet this is precisely the point of the gravitational pull. If we were truly wise, we would crash and burn up our entry vehicle once and for all, and throw our lot in with this new world. We wouldn't want to maintain a provision for escape if things got too tough. We would trust the Master of this new world with our lives. The carnal mind, however......
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