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It seems to me, that the concept of unity may be greatly misunderstood in the "church" world today. While I do not pretend to have all the answers on this topic, I do feel that it is one that needs to be studied in depth. Basically; Eph. 4:13 states "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God. Unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Is this verse really saying (as some would suggest)that at some point in the future all of christiandom will at one time come into unity.(will all believe the same way.) I would contend that this is not at all what this verse is suggesting, taken in context, Eph. 4:13 appears to be speaking of something that was expected to happen while there were still those saints that had not been perfected.(Eph.4:12) (i.e. come to the unity of the faith.) let's go through this verse by verse (These verses will be paraphrased if you disagree with the paraphrase please let me know why and how.)
Eph.4:11 He gave some to be; Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers. The reason for these gifts is explained in the next verse.
Eph.4:12 for the perfecting of Believers, for ministerial work, for the lifting up and building up of the body of Christ,
Notice: the ministry gifts are, according to eph.4:12 for three basic reasons the first one being; the perfecting of the saints or believers. please allow me to ask an introspective question. Are we that have a portion in the ministry gifts actually interested in accomplishing this mandate. To help bring the saints into the perfection or completion in Christ or to put it another way maturity in Christ. This is why the next verse piggy-backs on eph. 4:12
Eph. 4:13 Until we arrive in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the son of God, unto a perfect, mature or complete man. Until we measure up to the full stature of Christ.
At some point we need to reach a level of maturity in our walk with God. Hopefully sooner rather than later. Really reach our true potential that Christ made possible in his death on the cross.
Eph. 4:14 That from that point forward we will not be immature children the kind that believe everything they hear, just because it sounds so good coming from someone who seems so smart, they cunningly wait to deceive any they can.
It is very easy to have our ears tickled by someone skilled in speaking, however those who are mature check to see what the spirit would say, no matter how good it sounds. They are not controlled by what other people may say about them.
Eph. 4:15 Rather we should speak truth with love, and grow up in him (Christ) in everything. Because now Jesus Christ is the head or Lord of these.
Someone who has matured should be able to speak the mind of God with perfect love and be able to win others to Christ not drive them away.
When Christ is truly the head I believe we tap into this thing called unity It's less about us agreeing on things, and more about us looking to Christ as the ultimate authority in our lives. What if two people are allowing Christ total control and they disagree on some issue? I believe that these two would not become bitter or in any way hostile toward one another but would still have that level of love and fellowship that really personifies the Body of Christ. But while we may disagree on some points the ultimate goal of the kingdom far supersedes our trivial opinions. Or it should. does it in your life? Can you adamantly disagree with someone and still consider them in word and deed your dear brother or sister? Unity does not come from within ourselves, rather it denotes a true connection between you and your head Jesus Christ. When you are connected to the head and your brother is also connected to the head that's where true unity begins.
Please let me know what you think I'm just a young man searching for the deep things of God Aaron
-------------------- Go thy way for he is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name.
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Hi Aaron, i read from your email that you are very passionate about God. God is awesome and the spirit within you radiates a light that is often misunderstood or missed completely. Debate with friends on God's word is awesome if you unconditionally and lovingly agree to disagree to agree, you know what i mean. Genetically we are all vastly different and that's why, i beleive, we have differences of opinion. I often read the same scripture over and over and often find my interpretation of the same scripture different. It depends where you are. Sometimes i read something, get all excited, share my excitement with friends and they look at me stone faced. That word is only for me, so i have learned to share certain stuff differently. Keep God's word simple and avoid being technical, works for me. Unconditional love will always be dominant in your heart, debate on his word is what God wants, everyone's opinion is important so don't be to hard on yourself.
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I am new to this site. Speaking of unity I was curious if there was anyone out there that actually believed the Bible was inspired by God (God breathed) and was God's Word, His instructions to us, his childern. It seems that everywhere I go I hear that this or that verse isn't important or we can be unifed with out believing the same things. My wife and I are not unified unless we agree. How can it be different for Christians? Ephesians 2:5 states that there is "one Lord, one Faith , one baptism". That sounds to me like we all need to believe the same thing, or at least work hard to get to the point were we interpret the Word of God (the Bible) accurately 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20,21 After all if God is real and the Bible really is His Word to us it seems to me we better be careful about saying something isn't important or doesn't matter.
Welcome! I am of the same mind as you on this subject. When I read the Bible I can't help but feel that we ought to be studying for the purpose of agreement rather than just to agree to disagree--at least on doctrines and those issues which pertain to our time. And, I believe the WHOLE Bible is relevant today and that ALL of it was inspired by God. I think you will find others here who feel the same way.
One thing I have noticed though, is that sometimes a person will say that they believe the entire Bible is inspired but then when you bring a particular verse to bear on a topic of discussion they have some reason in their mind for not giving the same credence to that verse as opposed to another. Instead of studying to know where their error is which is causing the apparent contradictions in their belief system they choose to cling to cherished beliefs and ignore a portion of scripture. Oh, they won't admit they are ignoring it but if they do not give it the same consideration they are as good as ignoring it or discarding it, aren't they?
Anyway, welcome. Love to hear the reasons behind your post. What experiences have you run into?
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It’s great to know there are others out there who also trying to seek to know the accuracy of God’s Word. Thirty years ago I was part of a ministry that taught that the greatest secret in the world today is that “the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God”. As far as I can see it is still a secret today. That particular group like everyone else had its “blind spots” so eventually my wife and I left. As we visited other churches and denominations we found it was pretty much the same thing. Every one wanted to pick and choose what they wanted to believe and not believe. Recently, however we have run into more and more Christians who feel that it doesn’t really matter what we believe. They say they are unified even when they disagree on major points of scripture. Recently we found a home group where we all did agree on virtually every major point of Biblical doctrine. But they thought it wasn’t important what you believe as long as you love the Lord Jesus Christ. I thought Jesus Christ said that if you love me you will keep my commandments (John 14:15). They would get new people in who didn’t believe in tongues or the other gifts, for example, and tell them it is not big thing if you believe this or you don’t. I have become convinced that one of the main reasons we do not see more of God’s power in operation today is that everyone is compromising with all this false unity. I think we would do better to follow the apostle Paul in Acts19:8,9ff When some were hardened he separated out the disciples (those who believed) and went over to the school of Tyranus. He didn’t keep arguing with those who did not want to believe and he did not claim to be unified with them when he wasn’t. The result is that all Asia heard the Word with in 2 years. I can’t help but think we could see similar results if we adopted a similar approach. At present we have only met one other person in our area that is like minded on this so we are endeavoring to start our own home group. Frankly the lack of concern for the accuracy of God’s Word is discouraging but I am really blessed to hear from you.
Good to hear from you! I hear your concern. You have a good point. However, there are layers of proximity to the coming together of the brethren. This is in regard to doctrine as well. I have found this out through many failed home groups. The once-weekly get together for all the people for instance must be limited, so to speak (if you can call it limited),in purpose to the edification of all; with particular attention to the weakest members among us. This is no place for doctrinal disputes, as it may bring needless offense to the weaker ones. There should be a get-together of men to hash these doctrinal issues out. Again, as people are ready. This could be in a men's prayer breakfast or prayer meeting. Perhaps even a yearly retreat at some lodge or other. Men love this and it brings them together. What is important is that we have layers of depth in the church for future growth.
The church is actually a daily affair. We will never have any depth if we treat our meetings in a religious context. Yet we can't put pressure on people if we only meet once or twice a week. Actually we should never pressure people at all. Instead, we must let the Holy Spirit do the constraining. We are to be examples to the others.
You can't expect everyone to be ready for things at the same time. Rather than losing members to seek out a group that blesses them...we should be patient with all. Love is the key. Patience with those who are slow to understand. We should bear the weaker ones until they are ready. Just a few thoughts.
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I was just re-reading the posts, and I hope it didn't sound like I was disagreeing in any way with the importance of unity based on Christ and not a unity based on expediency. I don't compromise my faith in any way. I also don't believe in dominating or compromising another's faith in any way. What I am adressing is the method and timing of bringing or allowing proper unity to come into existence. We, in the Western world have quite a way to go to achieve true unity, I think. But, I think, the Lord wants us to learn to bear others with patience since we all seem to learn rather slowly. If unity is in the Spirit, then let the spiritual ones bear up with those with issues. It is never easy..rather it's gut wrenching at times. But it's real, and the long-term fruit brings glory to God. This makes all the difference to me.
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I hear what you are saying here, John. The More I study the more my eyes are oppened to how differently the early church functioned, vs. the way the modern one (the way we all have ingrained in our heads) does. I think that the early church achieved unity in messy ways, as there was plurality of leadership, and all meetings were participatory. But if all inolved have an active relationship with the Lord than the Spirit has a way of using one another as checks an balances so to speak, and the truth tends to rise to the top and true unity results.
The way we are used to is hierarchical- some guy, or group of them, at the top decide what is truth and write it out and tell the rest what they need to believe to be in unity. If some disagree, they leave, and set up their own group, with their own brand of truth. Thus, the many denominations and sub- denminations that we have today.
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Hi, a quick welcome to Bill, glad to see you jump right in. One of the first things we can practice here is not being passive as in the traditional church. We are not meant to be the audience. Hope I do not offend any bible fans by "doing work" (this keyboard) on a holy day. How many thousands of minor details should we seek to find agreement on? Would there be any time left to actually DO IT? Or maybe that is the real point of this very traditional practice. I suggest One point of AGREEMENT. I believe Joshua siad it best. AS for me and my household- we WILL SERVE THE LORD. As a Christian allow the SPIRIT of Jesus and our Father to fill in the details as we go along. I pray all may find this uplifting on this glorious Easter celebration day.(thats any Sunday, or it can be) God bless, Rich 1
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Rich - While in one sense I can see where you are comming from I can't agree that the only criteria should be "serving the Lord". In the middle ages the Roman Catholics thought they were "serving the Lord" by persecuting the protestants. John Calvin thought he was "serving the Lord" by persecuting anabaptists(he had Micheal Servetus burned at the stake!). Today's Baptists say they are "serving the Lord" by denouncing pentecostals for speaking in tongues. While it may be messy it is necessary to try to come together in unity of doctrine and practice. The Bible is the only way we know whether we are really "serving the Lord" or inadverntantly serving satan. Walking by the spirit is the only way to really understand the Bible.
As to the question of how many things can we seek to be unified on. I can suggest a couple of simple solutions. First if it is not specifically addressed in the Bible don't debate the issue. Second is Matthew 22:37-40. Love God and love your neighboor. Keep the clear commandments that you DO understand today. Luke 12:47-48 indicates we will be held accountable for what we know. I am always amazed at how quickly Christians blow off important issues. Does Christ come before the tribulation and "rapture out his saints" as some teach or does He come back for us at the end of the tribulation. It makes a HUGE difference. If the first view is true I can relax and ignore end times prophecy. If the second is true I had better study the prophecy and be ready to die if necesary. People say this is no big deal!!??? Like wise with speaking in tongues. If this is a gift from God every one should least WANT to do it. If it is not from God (no longer available) then people like myself are pocessed and we speak in tongues by demon power, or we make it up. Either way we should be cast out of any Christian fellowship if we refuse to "repent" and stop speaking in tongues in our private prayer lives. I can't see a middle ground here. Something is true or it isn't. It is ok to say "I am not sure", but then we should do as it is suggested in 2 Timothy 2:15 and study until we know. As I see it in John 8:32 it is the TRUTH that makes us free not unity. So while unity is important it is the truth that will bring deliverance not compromise on the truth. Working this out can be messy at times but it must be done. I am not sure what is meant by dominating another's faith but several verses caution us on associating with those pushing wrong doctrine and thus causing divisions such as Romans 16:17 and Titus 3:10. In a hierarchal Chruch we have basically no chance at agreeing on the truth. Here at least we have a chance as we don't have to worry about how much money we will lose if we take a certain position which we believe to be Biblical.
Good posting. I would like to hear your position on some of the other threads.
We, who have come out of the system can agree on many points.
We have abandoned the clergy/laity split. (Yet I still see a ministry mindset that we have carried over) We have ceased to support needless buildings that are mostly empty and have stoppped paying mercenaries to administer sermons on us. (Yet where is the outreach and the liberating of labourers in the vineyard that is now possible due to the re-allocating of these funds?)
We hold that church is people not a building.
We hold that the Body is relational and not organizational...etc
This is a good and necessary start. Yet we are remain vastly different in areas of doctrine, as you point out.
We are stuck in a perpetual infant state, it would seem, as we haven't yet grasped the church as the ground and pillar of the truth. We tend to be petty. I agree we should be one in doctrine and practice. We are of one Spirit are we not? The problem lies in how mature we are...in truth! I say not very. We love to disagree with others, it seems. We are small-minded. Not too faithful or full of faith. The flesh dies hard. So really the spiritual purpose is lost as the flesh in one battles the flesh in the other.
But, we must fight the good fight of faith. We mustn't get tired when the situation isn't improving at the rate that we would like. We must be united together through love, seeking to understand what the Lord has put in the brethren around us. Which is why this forum can be a tool to be used for that very purpose. I hope we can discuss the difficult issues without recourse to the flesh. That is my hope.
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Good job guys. You both make excellent points which Joe average christian never even stops to think about. Why are they excellent points? Both posts refer to actual, verifiable,shared EXPERIENCES of the post biblical era church.Here is the area we can learn from, if we so choose. Or each generation can continue to try and reinvent the wheel, each time starting over from scatch. Tradition was added to church operations to stop us from seeking reform. I am saying the method WE WERE TAUGHT how to use the Holy Books- yes, I do believe they are (for very logical reasons) has not shown me very good results these past 500 tears. See what I wrote? I meant to write years. Or, did I? The problem in knowing how to use the Holy Books is the lack of any stories of early christians doing so. Maybe that lack could tell us something. Nah. Thank you Bill for showing what "thought" did. Each example "righteously" with armed themselves with a collection of passages selected for THEIR purpose. Talk about purpose driven life! Hey guys, if nothing else, our lack of academic unity-(do you want to use THEIR word,DOCTRINE?)will limit how much real evil we can do. God bless your efforts to sift 2000 years of garbage. God LOVE you, Rich 1
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When I think about "unity" I keep in mind that Paul could "Rebuke Peter to his face" and still have unity, that David could disapprove of Saul's backslidden condition and yet please the Lord by his "love covering a multitude of sins".
Our American mindset tends to equate "unity" with "niceness". We must guard against this.
I think we should feel free to challenge one another on whether our choices come from a biblical mindset, or whether it is a cultural mindset. "Justify yourself" shouldn't be considered rude or judgmental, it should be considered love in action.
For example, I have studied what God says about home and family and decided on this as a precept, "Anything that tends to push people towards Institutional solutions instead of taking care of their own family is a bad thing."
I don't have a proof text for that, rather a comprehensive study of God's plan for humanity from Genesis 1 "He made them male and female" to Revelation's "Some from every tribe, language, people and nation".
I'm not going to say that anyone who turns to a hospital, politician, or clergy member is sinning. But I am going to say, "If you have not examined this issue, then you need to!" And as I apply this to my own life, I find that there are many, many ways I can build up the unity of my family and community by rejecting our culture's "let the professional do it" attitude.
I get mad when I'm challenged. But then, I try to think, is there something I should consider here? I may decide that the other person and I are simply led differently by the Lord. But I may realize that he has put his finger on a dark area that has not been examined in the light of the Word. I find that the more someone else is literally willing to do things God's way, no matter what the cost, the more we have in common!
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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I'm really trying to cool it, but I am so impressed by your post. I see a good heart guiding your thoughts. There are many passages which have helped you to form this understanding, even if you can't recall them at will. How about the instruction on widows- we are to take care of those in our families, so the church may be able to meet the needs of the ones who have no one. Also what Jesus says about care of elderly parents before religious "obligations." Better than verse memorization you have absorbed the overall SPIRIT of the Holy Books. Could this be what is meant by Spirit Unity? Rich 1
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Let"s try to move this topic along. Jeff, glad to see you join in on the bitterness thread. In regard to so called religion/ritual we have a great need for bitterness, what else could motivate us to take a leap of faith to try to make things better? AS Matthew points out, if we cut away 2000 years of customs, rituals, traditions, and habit of both the thought(doctrine) and physical form, all you have left is a very simple original faith. IN terms of spirit unity, would such a simple faith lead us more toward original unity?
Simply put JESUS THE CHRIST, IS MY SUPERIOR (lord) AND PROTECTOR.(savior)
I only have one issue- What am I going to do about it?
(all imput greatly appreciated, but as Matthew points out here, ITs STILL MY CALL.) Rich
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I do believe that such a case must be the logical outcome of freedom of faith. In the physical world there are certain constants which can guide us. Many refer to this knowledge as common sense. For example,we can say it is never a good idea to stick your hand into a fire. It seems to me that humans do not have enough experience in the spiritual universe- God's world, to form such one size fits all solutions to the challenges of spiritual life. I do believe there is always ONE BEST CHOICE, but too many variables and not enough data to make up some sort of list of correct answers. I always thought this was the main point Jesus made about what the Jews were doing wrong. That, and the idea that people could actually keep track of such a list! Sadly, His message did not prevent the "new Judaism" (Eramus's term) Here, you call it institutional church.
It is important that we offer a better method. WHAT MIGHT THAT LOOK LIKE? Rich
I think you could probably take the way the world thinks and operates (which, sadly, looks much like the way the religous Jewish community operated in Jesus' time, and the way the christian religous comunity operates now), and just think and act oppositely.
quote:JeanneH said: I think you could probably take the way *snip* the Christian religious community operates now, and just think and act oppositely.
I love this!!! You people are awesome! If I have told my wife one thing over and over again, it has been... "The Lord seems to be sending us to [churches] to learn exactly how NOT to do something!!! I wish He would just tell us!"
Yes! That's the one there! He did it! Arrest him!!! If we could just... oh wait, never mind. You think maybe The Lord has them right where they are?
To steal Rich 1's example, I'm sure glad I've been in that part of the maze ...and I hope I won't forget and go back in there!
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What I like here is that we have some agreement on one core point. From there we are able to see various slants, viewpoints and conclusions. To me this is the ideal of what church was meant to be. Not the rigid uniformity it degenerated into. Freedom to say what you think and to think what you believe you understand. Yes a new/older structure and process CAN HELP us to do this. The old certainly hinders it. AS Jeff said Mother Teresa managed to overcome the medieval system. Certainly my hero, Fr. Maximilion Kolbe did.(you can read his story in Being The Body by Charles Colson)
The 10 points of Jeff's list can help us guard against putting old wine thought patterns into our new wine skin gatherings.
The irony is that if all of us had not been indoctrinated in traditional western religion methods, it MIGHT not naturally become a problem among us.Let me give you an illustration from real life. Here Red Sox and Yankee fans have hated,passionate debates about our prefered positions, but we can continue to enjoy the interaction,the flow of information, the energy of conflict without ever thinking that we need some final, take it or leave it resolution. Where's the fun in that? Rich
quote:Rich 1 said: The irony is that if all of us had not been indoctrinated in traditional western religion methods, it MIGHT not naturally become a problem among us.
Hey Rich 1, this brings up another problem. For the most part missionaries have come from America, so we have spread the problems (we got from Europe) all over the world. I have been in six countries besides the USA, and they all did church the traditional "our way." Oh what a tangled web we weave...
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Well, one thing that is kind of uniform is that everyone needs food, clothes, shelter, and the "abiding love that passeth understanding".
That is pretty much enough to fill the day... if you make the effort to have "clean" food, modest and durable clothes, shelter that allows for true hospitality, and the kind of relationship with God that invades your space.
If you then think about which vocations will provide for all of the above, with God's help, and narrow down the vocational choices to "careers that honor God and do not defraud your neighbor or undermine God's plan for families" the list gets very short indeed.
Finally, if you consider which leisure time activities honor God and edify the individual, an awful lot of hobbies and activities have to be crossed off the list.
So... there you are. Our days begin looking kind of similar, if we are using the Bible as our yardstick and obedience to the Spirit as a modifying influence.
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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Whew, you got that right! I just spent the day over at my friend's house working on the last of the insulation (that needed to be installed before the drywall goes up). I'm beat, but I'm also blessed!
My friend was there, a Christian plumber was there, and I was there. The Lord was mixed all through our conversation (the plumber told me his testimony) and we had a wonderful time of no-issue fellowship. There was no singing, there was no offering, there was no sermon ...but we had a wonderful time in The Lord (as equals), just working together and helping someone that needed (and appreciated) the help. Now that's The Real Church in action!!! Loving and doing, it's that simple.
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Hey Laurie Ann, The really nice thing was, we then decided to go to Mammoth Cave KY on a spur-of-the-moment whim. We left Sunday afternoon, and just called the fellow (I just helped with his house) and let him know that we were leaving town for a mini-vacation. There was no guilt or shame, and we had a very relaxing time seeing one of "the seven wonders of the new world."
While I always wish we could do more, more more for so many, the fact that all motivation comes from within or from the Spirit instead of from men building their own kingdom is such a relief!
I looked at an old calendar recently, and saw, "Nursery" on it. Wow, what a downer:( Brings back all these guilt feelings of trying to "people please", trying to manipulate people into showing up, juggling 4 different ministries on a Sunday morning and the bitterness at people who either had the attitude, They're not MY kids MY days are done" on the one hand and those who said, They are my kids, and I need a break on the other.
Thank you, Lord, for delivering me to take care of my own first, and others according to true righteousness, instead of irksome duty!
It is so wonderful to know now, deeply know, that God wants us to enjoy Him, His creation, and the family he gave us from time to time - without having to make arrangements for others to cover for us - and without having to answer the question, "Where were you on Sunday?"
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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Wow, sounds like refugees from the famous Roman Catholic specialty. They laid it on so heavy, that I hear some saints worked themselves to death, pushed themselves to complete exhaustion. Not sure if they were considered role models or not.
My most recent experience was frustration. I felt I was so close to finding yet another "missing link" But I was stuck. Is it this, or is it that? I was going crazy back and forth between the 2. Finally, I got this understanding: relax. the Spirit will give you what you need, when the time is right. Not a new understanding, I hold onto that a lot when I am going to do a presentation.(Sunday they loved what turned out to be "ITS FUN") But for me this was a new use of that old standby. It also seemed to free up the block I had, allowed things to flow. Clearly, thinking "I could do this 12 hours a day, or more,"is not the same as thinking "I should." Rich
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I admit I still have guilt at times--feeling I am not doing enough. But aren't we allowed to say, "No"? I think we often feel we must do it all--as if no one else is qualified. But isn't that simply pride? In my own case I tell myself I am being helpful. That I shouldn't refuse to help if I am asked. But if I can't do it joyfully then would it be better to say, "No"? We do have limits.
Yet, even if we are pushed hard we don't have to feel burdened. Isn't it a joy to labor for someone you love? Sometimes I grumble about something my wife asks me to do. But then I remember it is for her and I love her. That makes it easier, and it turns to joy.
Sometimes I sing a little song about the Sabbath when I work. It goes like this... "Six day we have for work or play, the Seventh is for Jesus." It's a child's song but I sing it to cheer me up when I feel too tired to work. It helps me get through my chores when I know that Jesus wants me to be busy six days and rest with Him on the 7th.
That's one way I cope. It makes the burden lighter. Jesus did promise His yoke was easy and His burden was light. This is exactly what I think He meant. Have you found this to be true in your case?
Whenever we feel weary we should consider Jesus and His labor of love. He toiled all day with the sick and weary, taught his disciples, encountered resistance and hostility wherever he went, often lacked food and often deprived of sleep--spending all night in prayer. Yet he toiled ceaslessly going about doing his work that the Father had given him to do, all without a hint of complaining. We have it easy by comparison.
Though I don't agree with their doctrines I do admire certain groups for their unceasing labor for souls: the Mormon's, the JW's, and even the Catholics. We could learn some discipline from them, me thinks!
However, I looked up the word unity in scripture and it seems to only appear in Ephesians. There it seems to speak more in terms of being in agreement in doctrine. Do we just ignore that for the sake of unity?
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So this takes me where? I don't really know. I have decided that I'm not quite ready to give up on the traditional church just yet, because (as I stated before) some of my best memories are there. If I could find one where I was free, then I'd go back.
I'm also not totally ready to do things the home church way either. Taking someones teachings to heart, just because I'm sitting in their house, is quite simpleminded. I'd rather go to a building and be "fed" [gag, barf, barf, barf!] by someone who has at least been "trained," than to listen to Jo Nutball's strange ideas he got from reading the passage "Judas went out and hanged himself."
Oh well, maybe there is some place I can go and just rest for a while...
quote:D Anderson said: Man, this is heavy - to love all the brethren enough to die for them. 1 John 3:16. Yet, I can hardly stomach the IC meetings...
That's why I added the gag-barf stuff, I can't either, D Anderson. The truth is I think I'd probably have to see a vision to go back, but I would if I could find real people there.
quote: He also said: Thank God for a supportive wife and family.
May the Lord direct your steps, Matt. Mine, too, bro.
Is that all "Christian" life has come to? Me, my four, and no more! It seems that way some times. My wife understands, and my daughter is to little to understand (thank The Lord) so that pretty much leaves a few choice friends that understand. How sad. Thank The Lord for folks like you, Laurie Ann, JeanneH, and Rich 1!!!
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In reference to one of John 2's posts (04-13-2008 ) above where he states "Yet we are remain vastly different in areas of doctrine" I would agree that this is true of denominational churches. Over the last several years, however, I have been in contact with a number of independent home churches and I am amazed at how much most of us are in agreement on sound Biblical doctrine. The one problem I have noticed, however, is that many are reluctant to take a stand and say "this is what God's Word says and I am not ashamed" even though what they believe is accurate. Acts 2:42 says "they all contnued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine"(KJV). This I believe is the real key to seing the Word realy move and live. Many in the house church movement like to quote verses 44-47 and those are good verses, very necessary. But in context Acts 2:42 seems to be the key.
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Apostolic doctrine! This is to be our goal. We, in the home churches already agree on many points of basic doctrine. Coming out of the IC and meeting in simplicity has eliminated many of the doctrinal hurdles that face the vast majority in Christendom. But getting the system out of us is proving to be much more difficult. I believe that simplicity is the key. Meetings are for the edification of all, right down to the newest believer. Yet at one point all must be weaned from the milk and get on to a meatier diet. This is quite rare in my experience. There are other issues that are quite daunting. There are hot buttton issues that usually get swept under the carpet for the sake of unity and peace. When exposed, these often shake the foundations of a small church having such a limited history and experience. When we are ready we must not be afraid to tackle any issue. Of course this must always be done in brotherly love. Otherwise we won't be building, but tearing down. We need to have His wisdom. Networking helps in this regard by increasing the experience and gifting base. Actually I find networking to be essential. Mutual submission is key. We need the gray hairs! We need to have elder brethren stand up for an example. We need to see the way forward. Lord, build Your Church!
While we are all painfully aware of how many man made doctrine there are, Consider how few things early spiritual leaders talked about, and how many different ways they found to talk about them.
Would you agree that the main issues of the day were: Is Jesus God? Did he rise from the dead? Does he live? Where? In us? Are we God, or children of God? What should we do about it? (see 7 commands)
Complain as we must, the Big church at least kept the flame of these truths alight for 2000 years. Can we do better? I believe so. Rich
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Along these same lines I would like to pose a question.
Who do we please when we “paper over” serious doctrinal differences? Do we please God or man?
Jesus Christ said: Matthew 16: 7 then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. 11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? 12Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees
Note He did not say just be loving and over look our disagreements with these Pharisees and Sudducees.
Or Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; 11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears
In my view we are there today, very few want to hear sound doctrine.
If 1 Corinthians 14:39 says, "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues"
If I forbid tongues with interpretation or prophesy (as many churches do), I am disobeying God and therefore
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For the most part missionaries have come from America, so we have spread the problems (we got from Europe) all over the world. I have been in six countries besides the USA, and they all did church the traditional "our way." Oh what a tangled web we weave...![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
I have decided that I'm not quite ready to give up on the traditional church just yet, because (as I stated before) some of my best memories are there. If I could find one where I was free, then I'd go back.