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Hey Rich 1, Also please note that I was not trying to "get JeffL told" on his convictions. I don't expect them to change. I was simply attempting to counter his "sound doctrine" with a totally different "sound doctrine" that others believe. My point? Who says what's sound and what isn't?
However, I do fill that calling something "Antichrist" is very extreme, unless it is in direct conflict with a stated Biblical fact. For example, if someone says that Jesus was "just a good teacher and nothing more," that is in direct conflict with Scripture.
Also, I feel someone can make such a statement (just like the one above) out of simple ignorance. It's not that they have made any decision, they just don't know The Truth. There are so many...
To say or think that "I cannot overcome my sin" is to harbor the spirit of antichrist by denying that Christ came in flesh.
Is it really? Prove it!
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
Scriptural facts: 1) Jesus did not sin. 2) Jesus dwells in our hearts by faith. 3) The Christian dies to self and is born a new creature
Question time. 1) Who lives in the heart? 2) Who controls the heart?
If you answered Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, then can sin also reign there?
What about a house divided? What about serving two masters?
Can a person serve two masters at the same time?
If you answered no, then if Jesus is Lord and Master of your life can the Devil be lord and master at the same time? Jesus did no sin. The Devil sinned from the beginning.
So, do you still think it is impossible for a sinner such as you and I to live without sinning? If you answered Yes, then do you also believe that Christ cannot be Lord and Master of your life?
Don't get confused and think that once you receive Christ you are incapable of sinning. That is not so. James says we are drawn away (from Christ) by our lusts. But while Christ dwells in our hearts we cannot sin for Christ is there and He is Lord and Master. That is why we must fight the fight of faith. We must believe that Christ can be our Lord and Master continually. Only then will our sinful natures be "dead". Remember, the righteous live by faith [not by the works of the law].
The paradox of being made new, and yet having the old nature ready to jump in at a moment's notice is certainly a challenge, isn't it Jeff!
In a truly re-born person, there is a qualitative change. In fact, there are those who consider there to be a "second definite work of grace" where there is a breakthrough in the war against sin - where the war against the flesh gets easier.
I don't preach it as a doctrine, because Jesus didn't. But, as he said, you'll know by the fruit. The change may be subtle, or it may be sudden, but there should be increasing evidence of becoming like Jesus, who didn't just talk the talk but walked the walk of being righteous and being compassionate. As Paul said, "The works of the flesh are obvious..."
The Way of Jesus is "easy, his burden is light"... So, if we have to do high level logic reasoning to come up with a conclusion, we may be "right" but we are "putting burdens on men that even we cannot bear". Jesus himself warned us against that, so we must keep our doctrine PURE that is to say, easily understood, and easily acted on.
I enjoy plumbing the depths of the Word, in terms of word study, theme studies, seeking out symbology, etc. (An example: Did you know that Bathsheba was Ahithophel's daughter? That is, the man who was considered the Wisest Man in Israel - no wonder Bathsheba was the inspiration for the book of Proverbs! Cool, Huh!)
But it is phenomenally critical that that does not lead me away from "the simple obedience of Christ".
A child, or a mentally handicapped person can follow Jesus completely adequately. The more physically mature or the intellectually capable can have fun with more challenges, and should, in order to "Increase in the knowledge of Christ." But we must be careful that it does not become "vain knowledge that puff up".
Jesus quashed Paul, when he began to become proud of his "surpassing revelations". So, again, while we may enjoy speculating about the various deeper meanings, we must never lose sight of the Big Meaning - which is to Know Him personally (not know about him intellectually) and to Declare His Glory Among the Nations.
Our intellectual exercises should drive us to ever greater passion to proclaim Jesus. If it just makes us want to insult and patronize other believers, then that is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
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Hey Laurie Ann, It's no use. I know it is hard to fathom with all of the evidence in The Bible that we still sin, even once saved (the direct statements even) but there are those who truly believe that every time you sin you have [in a way] lost your salvation.
There is always a heavy emphasis on being good, or suffering the consequences. I have even heard folks that believe that if you still sin, you were "never really saved". There are also those who believe that if you die while sinning (even if you are saved) you will go to hell. EACH sin must be confessed in order to be forgiven, period. There are hundreds of variants of this.
JeffL truly believes that he doesn't sin when he is truly walking with The Lord. This is in spite of the fact that we are not all knowing, do not have The Holy Spirit without measure, and are not perfected (yet).
The truth is, this is a great bondage that forces many very religious to live a life of great condemnation, constantly tormented because they still sin. JeffL should read his own words: "We are unable to open our minds to ponder another view because we are in the laodicean mindset. We have become content to be mediocre, nondescript, indistinguishable, and non-confrontational. And so we just ebb and flow.
Be blessed, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
It is hard living in a Greek-bent world with a Hebrew mindset, but we have to try.
Greek mindset says, It is this way or it is that way. Hence, the Gnostic heresy. The biblical mindset says, We live in Paradox. God never changes his mind, yet he repents. God is sovereign, yet we have free will. We are perfect in Christ, yet "I die daily".
That's one reason why so-called doctrine is so deceptive... The premise is that we can know, finally, who will go to heaven. We want a criteria that lets us off the hook of total obedience and total reliance on Jesus.
"God is not willing that any should perish..." God is not standing at the gates of heaven hoping to keep us out, but Jesus is standing at the throne ushering us in. Those who are cast into outer darkness will be there IN SPITE OF GOD'S DESPERATE MEASURES to save them, not because of him being impossible to please.
It is a wrong perspective of God's goodness to see him as holding a microscope over us looking for the flaw.
No, Jesus blood flows and flows and flows to cover over the multitude of sins!
"Come, you who are thirsty..." Having accepted His invitation, I consider myself "In Like Flynn" unless I change my mind and choose Satan's way instead.
The way is narrow that leads to life... but I've passed through the gate, and I know I am on it! I don't fear a bit of a trip, or a moment of trial. No "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." It is he who lives in me.
Blessings, LA
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
quote:Originally posted by Laurie Ann: That's one reason why so-called doctrine is so deceptive... The premise is that we can know, finally, who will go to heaven. We want a criteria that lets us off the hook of total obedience and total reliance on Jesus.
Away with The Relationship! Give me religion! This is why it is clearly taught in The Bible that we should preach The Word, and live out our convictions. Religion tells us to take our convictions and make them fit with The Word... then force feed what we believe to be "the truth" on everyone we see. This should never be!!!
This is a great problem with the traditional church. Anything can be preached from the pulpit, (from "the learned master up there") and there is no open challenge. This is a great error, and it causes great harm!
Be blessed, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
I really enjoyed your post. Yes, yes, yes! Jesus is trying to save us in spite of ourselves. He is abundantly willing and able to pardon. He is not critical of our effort to please him but extends multitudinous grace more abundantly--if that even makes sense, but I am trying to overly emphasize how much effort Jesus puts forth to save us.
Sometimes when I fail and come to realize it I can end up with feelings as Matthew expressed. It can seem so difficult for us to follow closely after God. But we are constantly reminded that while we ARE sinners we are under grace. Whenever the subject of "not sinning" comes up I believe people are tempted to look at themselves and judge themselves by their failings rather than having faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice, His grace, and His willingness to pardon.
The idea that I am trying to convey in my posts is that Christ dwells in our hearts by faith. We should not allow our feelings to control us. If we do we will fail. We must put our feelings aside and believe the naked promises of God found in the Bible. We are well acquainted with our sinful natures and we know our weaknesses. But God tells us that we are to "reckon ourselves dead to sin, but alive unto God." This is God working in us. He is telling us that we are His children, not Satan's, and we should live a life of believing the truth and not the lie, a life of faith.
My final point being that if Christ cannot sin and it is "not I, but Christ" living in me then I cannot sin. We should then strive to remain in such a pure state, connected with Christ.
Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
And remember, Christ is not looking for reasons to destroy us but rather for any possible way to save us and convince us to join Him. After all, He did not give His life for our condemnation, but so that He might forgive us.
Romans 8:33-34
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
The battle is for the mind, isn't it. I mean, our lives are shaped by what we believe. It is difficult for us to overcome our thoughts and imaginations. Children were taught at an early age that...
"he's making a list and checking it twice gonna found out whose naught or nice"
Don't you think that little jingle helped to instill in us the idea that God is scrutinizing our lives looking for reasons to deny us the gift we desire? That and the Greek mythology movies which depict the gods toying with man.
But sin DOES separate us from God, so we should avoid it. Not because we can, but because God has made provisions for us to overcome temptation. Isaiah confirms that sin separates us from God. One pastor expressed it this way. When we sin we wound our conscience and in our guilt withdraw from God like Adam and Eve after their sin. Or like Peter who exlaimed, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man." Yet all the while God reaches out to meet us. Even Jesus eluded to this same idea when he said, "My Father hath not left me alone, for I do always those things which please him." But I think the idea is, when taken in context with all the other teachings about God's grace, that when we sin we feel guilty and that sense of guilt is magnified in the presence of a Holy God.
Scripture confirms this, by the way.
John 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
1John 3:21
Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God.
But, there is also the element of disobedience. I don't believe God will give the Holy Spirit to a person bent on using it for evil. But God gives the Holy Spirit so that we might have power to obey.
Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Yes, the battle is for the mind. Our faith shapes our lives. We act on what we believe to be truth. Think about it.
2Cor 10:4-5
(For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Now, here we are, battling against these things, these ideas, these teachings, which exhalt themselves against a true knowledge of God with the end that we might cast them down to the ground as useless and bring every thought into captivity to God's Word--The Truth.
While we strengthen our faith by experience, we begin our walk through hearing. It must begin with faith and faith comes by hearing, not doing.
Thank you for being a turtle and sticking your neck out.
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[KJV] Romans 7:24 - 8:2 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For The Law of The Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from The Law of sin and death.
[Interlinear] Romans 7:24 I, weight calloused human. Any shall be rescuing me out of the body of this, The Death? 25 Grace to The God yet through Anointed Jesus, The Master of us! Then consequently, to the same mind indeed am I slaving to the Law of God? Yet, (or) to the flesh, The Law of missing (it). 8:1 Now consequently not yet one condemnation to the ones in Anointed Jesus. 2 For The Law of The Spirit of The Life in Anointed Jesus frees you from The Law of the missing (it), and of The Death.
I love this!!! We are free from The Law of missing it. We are under grace!
The Word is liberty, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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Gosh- I don't want you all to think I am not here- I just don't have time to sit in front of the computer today, but much is running through my mind and spirit and I will post soon!
Glad to see you are still enjoying your ISA program.
Just wanted to test my understanding here. These statements reflect my beliefs.
We are under grace because we failed at keeping the law of God. And if not for God's grace the law would demand our death. It still demands the death of those who sin, so that law remains. Therefore, we are freed from its condemnation by God's amazing grace. If that law did not exist we would not need God's grace. There would be nothing to condemn sin, nothing to demand our death.
There are two laws in this passage.
1. The law of sin and death 2. The law of the spirit of life
The law of sin and death says that those who sin will die.
The law of the spirit of life says that those who are in Christ will live.
The law of the spirit of life is unselfish love. Love for God and neighbor. When we walk in this spirit then there is no condemnation from the law because "Love is the fulfilling of the law."
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus". What is it that condemns but the law. Therefore, the law must remain if this promise is going to have any value at all.
We are free from the law of sin and death if we are in Christ, or rather, Christ is in us. We are not free, nor do we want to be free, from the law of the spirit of life. To be free from this law puts us back under the law of sin and death.
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I think Laurie said it best, in the above: its all about paradox(it is said an eye for eye,but...) I just wouldn't give the Hebrews much credit for understanding. With Jesus, it is all new, all bets are off. Its anybody's race. Because Jesus paid our bail, we are free from SLAVERY TO SIN, clearly not free from sin itself. Now we are in a condition to have been reunited with our God, yet clearly not filled with our God's Spirit. NOW,we have a real choice, we are not free from the demands of the flesh,as long as we are in this life, but we do have THE MEANS to resist. If we are wise, each day we will try to become just a little more like Christ, in hope that we may be ready in case the real test of our faith should come: in case we have the chance to cheerfully, peacefully, willingly die for our God's plan for the world.
So ,in the mean time,I am very happy to talk about our training exercices,but maybe we should not get too full of ourselves just let. Rich
Blessings to you. (and I do love my ISA) I like to say it this way, please see what you think.
What Jesus did for us released us from The Old Law. Totally. Our judgment will be a judgment that will bring forth righousness, NOT condemnation. Since we are sons and daughters of The Lord, there is NO more condemnation on us. He took all of that on the cross when He became sin for us.
Where does that leave those who are not under this grace? It leaves them to be judged by The Law, and no man can measure up to that. We deserve hell. Something about dung and filthy rags comes to mind for some reason.
I know this sounds really simple...
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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Dear Laurie Ann, I really did come here to the RCC to share Biblical freedom with those that shared that same freedom. I had just begun to dabble with the Greek Interlinear, and was finding to my horror, relief, sadness, anger, relief, and great surprise that all Scripture advocated freedom in Christ ...instead of bondage to the traditional church. JeffL really helped with that, when he put me onto the (free to download) "Interlinear Scripture Analyzer".
I don't know if I have helped anyone here much, but I am still learning and growing in my newfound freedom. As you said, there is no way I'm going back!!!
Thanks for being such a blessing RCC, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
You wrote: "I like to say it this way, please see what you think. What Jesus did for us released us from The Old Law. Totally."
In a sense, what you say it true for those who walk after the spirit but can never be true of those who walk after the flesh. When God writes his law in our hearts we then have the fruits of the spirit against which there is no law. There is a law against stealing, lying, adultery, covetousness's and the like but there is no law against love, joy, peace, long-suffering, etc. So it is a nice expression to say we are totally released from the law as long as we understand that our release comes at an infinite price and is only true if we no longer walk after the flesh-- a lifestyle condemned by the law.
I believe that Jesus freed us from the law but I don't believe he did so by abolishing the law. I believe he accomplished this by his death at Calvary. The grand goodness of his condescension and glorious expression of his love for me draws me to him. As I admire his character and attempt to comprehend his love for me my heart is prepared to receive him as my Lord and Savior. I have a will to follow him but I cannot control myself and must depend on him. As I strive in my strength to receive him Jesus grants to me faith to help me believe and in this pliable state he is able to mold me into a new creature. This act of grace frees me from the law in that I no longer live in the flesh but by faith in Jesus. Even when I do fall he lifts me up and pardons me and encourages me to continue. What I don't need is a rebellious spirit which fights against his working in my life. The one thing I can do for myself is be humble enough to ask for his help and meek enough to realize I need it. In this sense Jesus has totally freed me from the law.
(Just to substantiate and clarify...)
We are admonished to be holy because He is holy. For this reason I believe we should be changing our habits. Habits are things we do almost unconsciously, at times. We need to form right habits and that is done by repetition. Reject those habits which are not worthwhile and start building habits which are according to God's righteousness and have virtue. I will leave it to you to define your walk but will add that Laura has some good advice in this area, especially with teaching children good habits at an early age.
Remember, we are now children of God but we have a long way to go. It may not be so easy at first because old habits die hard and it takes time to form new ones. But just remember what Jesus has done for you and the task will be made that much easier.
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Lots of good thoughts!!! (this includes you Jeff- my comment on the other thread doesn't mean I think you are all wrong- any more than I think anyone here is all right or all wrong- only that your thinking might be somewhat skewed by a reliance on human interpretation of scripture).
That being said, I would add that I agree that the rightous requirements of the law are not abolished, but are met in us, only because of Christ's perfect sacrifice. Yes, Rich- we are no longer slaves to sin, but having been made holy, we are now free to follow a new master which ushers us into the process of being made holy.
Thank you again Mathew for posting that passage in Romans in the Greek Interlinear- LOVED it! I think what Paul is trying to get accross to us at the end of chapter 7 is that there is more than one way to slip back under allowing sin to be our master. Of course one way is to simply ignore the Spirits presence in our lives and do what we want (liscence). But a more subtle way is to try to follow the law and change ourselves on our own strength, rather than to rely on the the Holy Spirit that is now within us (legalism). We may be sucsessful to a point, and for a time, but as this passage points out- we will fail! Whats the answer? This passage says- what else? JESUS! He makes us positionaly holy, and takes us along the path of becoming more and more practicaly holy as well.
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Hey JeffL, Again, may The Lord bless you. I don't really think agreement is necessary. You have your convictions (you seem fully convinced) and I have mine, of which I can assure you, I am fully convinced.
I feel my position gives me "the freedom to do what is righteous," while you [seem] to feel following portions (or all) of The Law helps you to live a righteous life. (You know the faith without works stuff and all of that). Holy living is good, but only Jesus makes us holy, The Law just convicts us (lets us know when we are missing it).
I just believe what I say is true totally, not just "in a sense". I also believe it gives me more freedom to enjoy God's creation (especially food ). I don't think the law was "abolished" (if that is a to harsh of a word for you) I just think it was "overpowered" with something [read Someone] much more powerful ...for those who ask Christ into their hearts and lives.
How about this... let's say that The Law is gravity. Let's also say that Grace is The Rocket that has overcome The Law! Step outside of The Rocket, and you WILL splat ...according to The Law.
I just say we should live in the freedom of The Rocket!!!
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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I like it! How about from now on I call you Rocketman? May I add Yes, you have all convinced me- the artificial word "church " is beyond redemption. It just carries with it so much garbage- doctrine and practice if you will. Think I'll start using Christlife center. That will allow us to promote the new/oldest vision of what a Christlife center is. More details on that when you are ready for it. Rich
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I think Rocketman suits Matthew really well
Here's a critical point: The Law of Love has HIGHER requirements than the Law of Moses.
The Spirit of Christ makes it POSSIBLE to actually obey the Law of Love.
That's one reason why I opposed legalistic groups that try to enumerate what we should wear, or how we should spend our Sabbath, or what the minimum is to give to God. I dress appropriately to honor Christ and be a "winsome emissary" according to who I'm with. I love God with all my heart 24/7. And I give as generously as I can without neglecting the care of my family and the stewardship of all that God has given me.
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
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YES!!!!! Grace- the life of living by the Spirit meets the requirements of the law....PLUS!!!
And I would add that not only is it now possible to do these "works", but should be easy, and nourishing as well!!!
I recently read the story of Jesus with the Samaritan woman at the well. After he spoke with her and then met his disciples who had gone to get some grub, he told them that he had bread that they didn't know about. He was speaking of the way he had brought the kingdom to this woman and the people who knew her. Allowing the Father to work in and through him this way was nourishing for Jesus! So why do we find so many church workers so burned out???? They are relying on themselves rather than on Jesus to work in and through them!
I recently talked with a friend about wanting our kids to find our family faith "delicious" rather than burdensome.
I think that's what you are pointing up here -- Jesus found Kingdom work so delicious and satisfying that he could need time before he could return to the "ordinary things" like being hungry and thirsty.
And it is seeing a breakthrough that gives that satisfaction. A lot of my burn-out with church work was that there was so little fruit for so much work. On the other hand, to see one or two people have some kind of transformative breakthrough or insight was so satisfying it would carry me for a long time.
Perhaps one thing about doing the simple model is accepting the real significance of the 80/20 rule."The 80/20 principle — also known as the Pareto principle — is the well-verified observation that in business, economics, and life generally, about 80 percent of all results flow from a mere 20 percent of our efforts." So, if we do more of the 20% we'll be more productive. I now spend much more time in one-on-one ministry that gives me the opportunity to speak into a person's real life and situation, with the result that I have many more opportunities to see that transformational moment when someone "gets it". Nothing beats that!
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
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Rocketman huh? More like bottle-rocket man! ...or maybe blabber-mouth man.
That being said, I guess looking back, I can't name one person I influenced in the church that in any way bore any apparent fruit ...unless I spent one-on-one time with them outside the church doors.
That statement includes my being busy in the church from the time I was 14 until I was 36. Twenty two years, and no apparent "learners" [disciples] EXCEPT for the children I was able to do simple things with, like take out to pizza after church, or bring home and allow them to play on my computers. Personal interaction...
I have racked my brain, and I can think of NO EXCEPTIONS!!! I would formally have said this is really sad, but having come here (and having learned so much) I now understand that this is the way it truly is supposed to be! How wonderful!
Matthew
And one more thing... as I type this, I'm also playing with my three year old. You should see the smiles!
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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Just a quick one before a chicken dinner with all the fixings- can you smell it? My compliments to Jeanne and Laurie for the way you describe a very rare experience. Well said, you have been blessed,hope you will do whatever it takes to hold onto that high. It is powerful.
Now for my standard contrary comment( so you won't worry that I'm not myself} What if 80/20 is a representation of the human bell curve? At any time, in any generation only a small percent of people will get a small percentage of the message. We can never know who, or how or when, so we can not shift the odds by shifting our attention! It is what it is. Have fun Rich
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Well, yes, Rich, you are a contrary cuss! Thanks for your kind words, though.
Here's our example about focusing our efforts: Jesus' balance in ministry changed over time, although he did essentially the same things. He went from broadly scattering to focusing on the most likely candidates to carry on his message. He went from open air meetings to more intimate settings. I think we do well to look at what we are doing and "see what God is blessing".
This raises a question: did Jesus change because he was learning as he went along? Or did he know it all from the beginning and had a strategy? On the other hand, does it matter? Should we not also see what God is doing and focus our energies there?
There is a great story in Richardson's "Eternity in their Hearts" about a missionary who focused his energies on winning the Burmese, and had little to no fruit. Meanwhile, his servant, who was from a different tribe altogether, listened to the message of the missionary around the house, embraced it, preached it at his people's firesides, resulting in a people movement to Christ that carries on to this day in the mountains of Asia.
So, was it God's will for the missionary to ignore this open, receptive people because he had in mind a different people? Or was he missing it? Or, maybe it is just as well - maybe he would have wrecked it if he knew it was going on... Either way, one lesson from the story is this: it is easy for us to miss what God is doing when we have an institutional model in mind -- people don't respond to institutions, strange ideas, or unknown people as much as they do to people they know being transformed by the power of God.
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
About the 80/20- those who don't get it/ those who do: This reminds me of the parable of the soils. One of the 4 soils has the message go in one ear and out the other, but then the next 2 seem to accept the message and believe- only to fall away under pressure. The 4th soil is of course the one where the person believes, truly understands (gets it), takes root, grows, and produces much fruit. I think big church actually caters to the middle 2 soils. "christians" are encouraged to "learn" passively, and little to no preassure is put on them, allowing them to sit in their own bad soil. Churched "christians" often do not ever produce much if any fruit- both in their own character growth (fruit of the spirit) and spiritual multiplication of new believers. The question is.... If big church caters to bad soil, is there a way we can cater to people of good soil? I think that Laurie Ann brings up a key to doing this- pay attention to what God is blessing! I have other thoughts on other keys to doing this- but what do all of you think?
BTW, Although I find Jeff's reasoning about whether we can be sinless or not as rather rigid, I do share his frustration with "christians" who do not change, and can find every excuse under the sun for why they can't. They are just wallowing in their own bad soil! Although I don't see people as either sinless, or sinful, I do know that if our hearts are good soil, our lives can change dramatically! God miraculously heals, and changes sin patters- I have seen it in my own life, as well as in others!
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I think we are in the paradox zone again, or maybe we never leave. The missionary is a perfict example of what we all experience. You just never know. Do we not, serving as the living word, simply scatter seed where we go? Leave it to His Spirit to do the rest. When this is the attitute, faith provides a powerful motivation. Much like wondering in the desert for 40 years on His say so, our walk is NOT RESULT BASED, as is the world's motivation. Instead we ask to go where He leads us, content not knowing the way,or the length, or the ojective. Confident that He has it covered.
I just checked out buildingbrothers.org My next task is reading Spiritual Fathers by Dan Schaffer- know it?- before the next gathering of the dirty dozen on the 31st. Rich
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All I can say is that if there is such a thing as absolute truth then it must be available to know what it is. Other wise we might as well be come agnostic secular humanists.
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Absolute truth? How about "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life." Sounds pretty absolute to me! ...oh, and one more thing, He [Truth] is a person.
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
Jesus did say that he finished the work that his Father gave him to do. He told John the Baptist to baptize him to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus was very familiar with scripture and knew those verses pertaining to Christ-- His life. I believe he did know his work. In another place he said he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Before he ascended he gave his disciples very specific instructions of their work.
A note, Jeanne, about sinlessness and rigidity. I just wanted to make sure I was not misunderstood. I am not saying that we are or can be sinless. I am saying that Christ is sinless and that He can dwell in our hearts by faith. Should I expect to find a divided house? As long as Christ is Master I tend to think we can live without yielding to temptation. So we would be sinners yielded to Christ. Not I, but Christ. A faith challenge.
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Hi Bill, good to hear from you. Have you read those famous words- "its not about us" ? Yes, we would like to know. ( see, Eden,garden) I think God's position was YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH. Happily,we have an alternative- HE KNOWS ALL OF IT. We need to know His Spirit WILL guide us, if we let it. Is that not very different from the a - s- h, you mentioned? Rich
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