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R C Cafe » Basic Issues » Worldview » Matthew J. Murray
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Author Matthew J. Murray
Matthew
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Yesterday I got on the net and ran across the YWAM shootings. I have no TV, so yesterday was the first time I had really studied what had happened. I know, I'm in danger of jury duty if the government finds out. [Smile]

The kid that did that (Matthew J. Murray) was home schooled, raised in an upstanding christian family, and killed five people {including himself}. He had a lot of "interesting" things to say. NOTE: The blanks were how his letter appeared on the internet. I could only find the quote that his letter was "laced with profanities and vulgarities" I do not know what they were.

quote:
To God:

What have I done so wrong? What is wrong with me anyways? Am I really such a bad person? You stupid ____. I didn't even ask to be born. Jesus, where are you? Do you even care these days? You ________ ________. Why didn't you ever answer my cries for help!! Why do I have to be hurt by so many Christians? Where or how can I find you anyways? The more I read your stupid book, the more I pray. The more I reach out to Christians for help, the more hurt and abused I get. Why couldn't you write you damn book more clearly> Which version(s) are the "right" ones anyways? Sorry for not being perfect enough for you, you stupid ____. Is tongues and prophecy still for today? What kind of prophecy? Honestly, I do sometimes worry about hell. How do I avoid hell? It seems everyone in Christianity these days is confused. Are all those Christians going to be in hell for not following and/or believing in you the "right way"? What if they speak in tongues or use the wrong Bible version? Or what if they're the wrong denomination? WHAT IS THE TRUTH?! Where or how can I find it? Where can I find the "real Christians? Who are the "real Christians"? How can I be right with you? Are you too _______ off at me to even care about me or to hear my cries for help? Am I too wicked to have Salvation? Are you plotting to hurt me more? I'm sorry God, I wish I knew a better answer than the religion I am now. I've heard good things about what Jesus can do, yet everywhere I go in Christianity, all the Christians I see or meet are miserable, angry, selfish, hypocritical, proud, power hungry, abusive, uncaring, confused, lustful, greedy, unsure of their doctrine, meanspritied.

I am much a nicer person with integity (sic) and I am more sincere and caring for people. Why hasn't Jesus really truly improved the Christians behaviours (sic) attitudes, or lives? The younger people who "have" Jesus are often times controlled by lust. I'm not. I have integrity in that area. Can and will Jesus help me? Jesus, if you are alive, could you please reveal yourself to me. Or show me the "True Way"? I want to be free from this lifelong pain. Why didn't any changes occur or any love or help come when I accepted you as Lord and Saviour? (sic) I wish I knew the truth. Please don't be harsh and flippant towards me. I just wish I knew the "true way". Am I too lost to be saved? My soul cries for deliverance. I'm dieing, praying, bleeding and screaming. Will I be denied???

This is one of the most sobering cases I have ever studied. [Frown]

Matthew

M.P.
      USA


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This is pretty heartbreaking, Matthew.

I'm afraid that he represents a lot of disillusioned people. I know a number of people who could easily have written this.

I'm also afraid that mission agencies' way of doing things can be very hurtful. In YWAM, DTS gets people to really open up their shame and pain, and I wonder sometimes how wise that is, when people are so complex. For a healthy, whole person, it can be wonderfully relieving to unload some junk in preparation for the rigors of overseas life.

But we, as Christians, do well to be careful about plumbing depths of the human psyche. After all, decades of "counseling" and "therapy" in American, and mental illness is on the rise, not diminishing.

I also wonder how wise it is to get people to experience such intense faith experiences with, essentially, strangers, and then send them back to "church". It is really hard to live in the superfluous "churchianity" after experiencing weeks or months of deep fellowship.

That's why God made families.

I should add, that our family has experienced that rejection: "I offered myself, willing to do anything for the gospel. You pleaded with us to be willing to go, and we aren't good enough?" That stings. Finally, God moved us to the mission field without an agency (company transfer), and when we got there, our denomination booted us out of the fellowship because "we were not appointed missionaries". Gee, wonder why we didn't go back?

I don't know what the better way is, but I'm sure there must be one!

Matthew
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The really strange thing is, my wife and I went to YWAM "Nashville" to check it out ...which, by the way, is NOT even in Nashville! How funny! It is in Adams TN, a 45 minute drive from Nashville (even their name is a lie)!

What was I talking about? Oh! When we got there, we began asking some serious questions. We found out that they would charge us $10,000 each, and then also make us both work (for free). What was the benefit? They said we would get an opportunity to draw closer to God, and would be "networked" with other YWAMers and be able to say we were YWAMers... and that was all!!!

Needless to say, we left there (not quite laughing but) still shaking our heads after they couldn't tell us where our $20,000 would disappear off to! I just found this site, http://www.apologeticsindex.org/y05.html that had some very balanced perspective to offer.

quote:
God moved us to the mission field without an agency (company transfer), and when we got there, our denomination booted us out of the fellowship because "we were not appointed missionaries".

Okay, that's nuts!!! Was that some kind of control issue or something? That is possibly the strangest thing I have ever heard! Was there any explanation as to why they did that!?! What was their justification!?!

Well, I started this topic with Matthew J. Murray's letter. I also found out that he was home schooled using a "very strict" home school style you kinda warned me about (Gothard's curriculum). I find that very interesting as well.

My mom was over the top in some areas. I'm trying to correct that with mine. (It's kinda strange, but she took us to Gothard's seminars when we were children.) He really pushed what I would call "intellectual success" to put it mildly.

Well, as they always say (whoever they are [Smile] ) ...There but for The Grace of God, go I!

Matthew

M.P.
      USA


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quote:
Originally posted by Matthew:
The really strange thing is, my wife and I went to YWAM "Nashville" to check it out ...which, by the way, is NOT even in Nashville! How funny!


Well, certainly owning the label of one of the largest missions forces in the world, isn't nothing. And the $10,000 goes to "bed and board" for 5 months, and would have included an overseas experience.

I don't want to go slamming YWAM, because it isn't "them" it is, once again, the broken model.

What was their justification!?! Well, it was to keep people from interfering with the trained missionaries in the field, which really does happen. If Jack Pastor hops on a plane, lands in Japan, hangs out a shingle, circumventing all the training of Joe Missionary and totally screws up, it can undo the work of decades in a few weeks. This happens all the time... for the price of a plane ticket, a Christian can totally sabotage a missionary's life work by handing out insensitive literature, giving out money, doing something "American" that is totally offensive to the locals and a hundred other things that cause misunderstanding.

So, I understood that. The frustrating thing, is that we checked in with Headquarters before we left, told them what we were up to, and the underling we talked to said, "fine". I feel we should have been called in, evaluated, given instruction and some guidelines about cooperating. The organization is cutting off a real resource by not letting us plug in to the local work. They have nothing in place to take advantage of the all the "Global Nomad Christians" who are eager to be involved as so-called lay people. In our case, we had applied for “real Status” in the past, but my dh wasn't a preacher, so they thought we would not be able to “raise our support”. So, we went back to them: Hey, support isn't a problem – an American corporation will foot the bill... they had no way to deal with that.

In the event, we associated with a different fellowship, that got to know us, gave us bits of work to do to prove ourselves, and eventually took us on as full staff and offered us ordination. We added a lot of people to their church, gave them a great deal of visibility, won back several backslidden Christians. And all in four years, the typical "missionary term" - a lot of "trained missionaries" don't even last that long.

Not to be prideful, but it just shows that it is very hard for a human organization to predict success, and a bit of flexibility would have gone a long way in our case, which was as believers who had a proven record, both in the church and in the workplace.


As you said, this started with Matthew J. Murray's letter. I'd say "academic idolatry" is a hallmark of that group. It is very American, not biblical.

Well, as they always say (whoever they are [Smile] ) ...There but for The Grace of God, go I!

AMEN and AMEN!
Laurie Ann

Matthew
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quote:
Laurie Ann said:
Well, certainly owning the label of one of the largest missions forces in the world, isn't nothing. And the $10,000 goes to "bed and board" for 5 months, and would have included an overseas experience.

Actually, we owned a motor home, and they were going to charge us to "camp" there while we went to "school" (and still make us work for free). It was a cut rate from dorm cost (which were extra), but there was still a charge. They never mentioned any "overseas experience" ...maybe we didn't stick around long enough! [Smile] As far as their name goes, I had already gone with Teen Missions (three times), and they welcomed me the last time by paying all of my expenses! [Smile]

quote:
it isn't "them" it is, once again, the broken model.

So, how do we fix the broken model? Is it broken because there is so much "christian" real estate that needs to be paid for? I guess I'm looking for the balance. You say you understand your former church being exclusive because damage can be done. What checks and balances do you feel there needs to be? It sounds like the fellowship you found overseas was balanced. What was their method? ...Do we even need a method?

What if Matthew J. Murray would have just been consequenced (or just stopped) from playing that song (the one YWAM kicked him out for) do you think maybe he would have been a missionary today? [Frown]

As JeffL is so fond of asking, do we shun those who are different?

Be blessed,
Matthew

Clip clop, clip clop, clip clop, ignore, ignore, ignore... *** Amish drive by shunning. *** [Big Grin]

M.P.
      USA


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Hmmmm Well... YWAM has had hundreds of thousands of people go through their training and programs... This is the first time anybody went postal, so I think it is just a statistical numbers game. Someone capable of snapping like that wouldn't have done so good on a pioneer mission field.

If someone flips out, it is never because of whatever the last thing is before it happens. Obviously, there was something in him that couldn't cope. Yes, homeschooling Christian families have a certain number of mentally ill people in them, just like any other family.

A for the model... I think we need to try the Jesus model again, and just see what happens. Why not?

His model was somewhat:
Develop a strong spiritual life
Move to a new community
Meet people
Pray for their needs. Expect miracles.
Teach them about the Kingdom of God
Identify those who most clearly embrace the message
Focus on leading THEM to ...
Develop a strong spiritual life
Move to a new community...
Etc.

Meanwhile, the parallel movement of households in-gathering believers is going on, to serve as a base of operations for those traveling evangelists. There is an emphasis on building community here and reaching the next community there.

Am I missing anything?

Matthew
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Hey Laurie Ann,
I think you pretty much covered it. [Smile] I'm probably not gonna be around here for a while... but I'll be back (The Lord willing). [Frown]

Again, thanks for praying. [Frown]

Matthew

D Anderson
      Bristol, TN USA


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Enjoy your time off from the Cafe and continue to be a blessing to others wherever you are in space or cyberspace.

May the Lord direct your steps, brother, and cover you daily. We look forward to your return!

Matthew
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Nutball, psycho, kook! I bet that's what must have entered some of your minds when I started such a strange topic, and then vanished. Well, before the FBI show up on my doorstep, [Smile] I will explain.

About two months ago my wife found out she was pregnant. Yesterday, we found out for 100% sure (I still really like facts) that she was having a miscarriage. I am working through the grieving process. [Frown] That's what's going on... and it's really hard. [Frown]

I understand that I will see my child some day, but it is still hard. [Frown] Thanks for just listening...

Well, that's what's going on. I haven't been AK 47 shopping or anything, so y`all can stop watching the news! [Smile]

Be blessed,
Matthew

P.S. And D. Anderson, thanks for the kind words.

D Anderson
      Bristol, TN USA


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Brother, Carolynn and I have been down that road as well. I wish we had been better trained to understand what was happening.

Think of the additional joys in that land beyond the clouds when we are re-united to the unborn and often forgotten ones... now in the eternal arms of the Saviour - made perfect at last.

Praise his wonderful name!

Matthew
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Then I am sorry for your great loss as well. [Frown] Thanks for the kind words. The day we finally realized what was probably happening, I was so stricken with shock and grief I didn't know what to do. I cried a lot, then I simply turn to the only facts I know: 1. Our child died. 2. Our child is in heaven with The Lord. 3. If I don't really mess things up, I will see the child in heaven when I get there. 4. I have another child here with me, that needs me, so I must wait.

Thanks for being a blessing,
Matthew

JeanneH
      Superior Colorado


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Hi Mathew!

I wish I knew what to say that would help you- but I don't. Know that I am praying for you both though!

--------------------
Jeanne

Matthew
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Hey JeanneH,
I'm glad you don't... I wouldn't wish this on anyone... [Frown] And thanks for the prayers, we both need them.

Thanks again,
Matthew

   

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