posted
Ruth Bell Graham, wife of the renowned evangelist, passed on a few days ago. Her coffin, it was reported, was made of plywood by several inmates at a major prison facility in the South.
Billy Graham prayed then kissed a red rose and placed it atop the coffin.
Perhaps making your own simple "box" may appeal to some of you. It does me. The savings, methinks, would be considerable and such a project might increase one's humility.
posted
So sad for him. He will probably go quickly for missing her.
BTW, when my father-in-law passed two years ago the "pine" box was over $1700.00. We actually found a much nicer one, oak I believe, for $300 less. And the pine box was very plain and rather ugly. I wonder, can you build your own? I suspect that they must meet certain standards set by local ordinances or as required by the funeral home. Does any county still allow a person to be buried on their property as it used to be in rural areas?
What about cremation? Isn't it cheaper? Can Christians be cremated? I don't see why not. Does a body even burn up? If they burn forever in hell-fire, which I presume would be much hotter, can they even be cremated? I've seen ashes presumably from such a cremation so the evidence suggests yes. What about the fire that melts the earth's elements with fervent heat and burns up both the earth and the works that are in it? (2 Peter 3:10). Hmmm, just pondering textually.
posted
I've heard of "green burial" cemetaries, which advocate non-chemical burial in a very simple box, allowing the body to "return to dust", but I've found it very difficult to google it, because so many cemetary names include "Green". The idea is that cemetaries allow a simple pine box burial the old fashioned way.
I know of believers who have done cremation, but I personally associate it with Eastern religions, and scripture places a significance on entombment in many places - it was considered a curse to have your body scattered (i.e. Jezebel) or missing. On the other hand, once I'm in glory, I'm sure I won't care what happens to my body - I'm sure God can reassemble it when the trumpet sounds, no matter how it has been disposed of.
An interesting phemonenon in our time is that people don't visit cemetaries as much as they did in the old days - but then there are all these "roadside shrines" to the memory of people who have died in car crashes. It looks so much like the "shrine under every spreading tree" in Japan, it gives me the creeps!
What's up with that? Is it a reality of animism under our veneer of Western Civilization?
Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
I am puzzled by your remark, "Is it a reality of animism under our veneer of Western Civilization?". I don't know exactly how to interpret it in light of what I think you believe in, if you agree with others here. Animism deals with spirits separated from bodies--something the majority of Christians have come to believe in. Is this a doctrine held by the non-Christian Japanese? What's up with that?
posted
I think I need clarification on your question, Jeff. Certainly, the belief in a spiritual realm is shared by Christians and Animists. But most Christians believe that a person's spirit does not remain inhabiting earth's regions, whereas some animists do not distinguish between angels, demons, and human spirits, believing a human spirit could be living around them.
Bringing Japan into the picture was just for the sake of comparison: there is something eerie in some of their shrines, which have a kind of despair represented ( the ones with baby things are the most depressing - certain shrines are used to try to appease aborted babies and to beg for a child - sun- bleached Micky Mouse dolls, baby shoes and rattles tear your heart out). When I came back from Japan, certain things in America struck me in a different way - roadside shrines are one of them.
Here in OK, I see flowered crosses with bottles of wine and favorite food left under them. Doesn't that seem like "an offering to the Spirit of the Dead"? And don't Christians not do that?
Blessings, LA
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
Yes, most Christians believe that the soul goes to heaven, or hell, rather than remaining earth-bound. But, like the Animist, they also believe in disembodied spirits.
I'm having a difficult time phrasing the question because I don't want to offend you. But I would like to try to understand how you would defend yourself against a visitation from a friendly spirit? I seem to be unable to resolve this question in my mind because I don't fully understand your beliefs.
In my simple understanding I cannot see how just knowing that our departed loved-ones are not to visit earth protects a person from receiving a visit from a very close friend. Especially if that visitant says something like this: "Normally we are not allowed to make contact but God allowed this exception because of the gravity of the situation. He loves you very much and wants you to be with him so he has sent me to give you this special message to warn you. He knows how close we were and knew that you would know that it was me because we shared so many intimate secrets."
How would you defend against this? What would you do or say? Jesus often quoted from Deuteronomy to defend against the Devil. What scripture would you use as your sword? I would start with Ecclesiates 9:5 which says that "the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything." Then I would follow with other verses like Psalm 146, "Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
But if you cannot use these verses then what would you use? To me this is a very scary thought because Revelation 16:14 says that spirits of devils go forth to deceive the world. Anything but the Word of God will prove unsuccessful in defending against such a terrible and aweful attack on our emotions and senses.
(If those Portugese children had known the truth they could have defended themselves against the apparitions of the Virgin Mary with the Word of God. But, even the Christian Pope believed in that visitation. How much closer to Animism can one get without actually being called an Animist? We may have the trappings of Christianity but we embrace the creeds of paganism. How do our doctrines differ from the Ancient Egyptians' teachings?)
posted
We are missing each other here, jq. I have no clue what you are talking about.
My experience with angels or family spirits is that they do not identify themselves as such, and it is not until after they are gone that I realize it was some kind of visitation. They never seek to manipulate.
So, if something identified itself as, "I'm your old buddy Esmerelda, and I'm here to tell you what to do" that I would say, "I rebuke you in the name of Jesus. Depart." Then I would go on with my life. I don't dialog with demons. That way lies destruction (See Genesis 3).
Why did you say, "IF you cannot use these verses..." Who do you think I am? Your accusations against me on this forum get more and more bizarre as time goes on. How can you not know what I believe? I'm a perfectly orthodox Christian in every way. I believe what any Bible-believing regenerate authentic Christian believes.
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
Please don't think I am accusing you. I am not questioning your faith in God or your walk with Him. We are merely looking at differences in how we interpret scripture. There are no accusations involved. But I do believe that what we believe can either be a hinderance or help in times of temptation. Each of us wants to be a lover of truth so that we don't receive strong delusions and fall away from God through deception. For these reasons I want to examine what a "Bible-believing regenerate authentic Christian believes."
When I say "if you cannot use these verses" I am refering to the fact that most Christians today don't believe what these verses say--that the dead know nothing and their thoughts perish when they die. They virtually reject them because they believe something contrary--that the dead know more than they did prior to death because they are in heaven with Jesus at this very time.
So my question is, if you believe the departed are with Jesus in heaven and know more than they did before, then what scripture would you use to defend yourself against visitations from spirits? In other words, how would you descern between a good spirit and an evil one if both have access to you?
BTW, it seems you are implying that you have already been visited by angels and family spirits. If so, how did you know they were angels? How did you know they were family? You say that in your experience with them "they do not identify themselves as such."
Again, we are not questioning your walk with the Lord. We are simply looking at scriptures which seem to say something contrary to what the vast majority of Christians believe.
Ecclesiastes: For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
I would be VERY careful, Jeff, of making a doctrine from ONE scripture in the "Testimony of a Backslider" which is what the book of Ecclesiastes is. Yes, that book contains some worldly-wise words, but there is NO other scripture to support this. Anything that is a belief we should adhere to and act on is REPEATED throughout scripture, not mentioned just once.
The "vast majority of Christians" believe based on the whole counsel of scripture rather than proof texts with little supporting scripture.
Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
What can I say? I have met other people who reject one book of the Bible after another for various reasons--as though ALL of scripture was not inspired and it is up to the individual to determine for him/herself which books are inspired and which are not. They claim to be guided by a higher spiritual force that has authority over them above the Bible. Yet, this guide teaches them to disregard scripture, the very Word of God, Jesus Christ, which became flesh and dwelled among men.
Nevertheless, in defense of scripture I will provide additional verse which demonstrate the consistancy of the inspired Word and show that this theme runs throughout the Bible.
Man returns to the dust from which he was taken:
Gen 3:19 for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ps 104:29 thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Ec 12:7 the dust return to the earth...spirit return unto God.
Man sleeps in the grave until the resurrection:
Ps 17:15 I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
Job 14:13 hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Is 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.
Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
When man dies his thoughts stop:
Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Now, this is odd--that you say "there is NO other scripture to support this." I had only begun to list the scriptures. But time does not allow me to list all of them. We haven't taken a look at the NT yet! See Acts 2 where Peter proclaims under the Holy Spirit that David is not in heaven but is buried.
We should be concerned lest we be like Jehudi and take our penknife and cut out scriptures we don't like and cast them into the fire.
BTW, I don't believe you can produce a single scripture which says a person goes to heaven or hell when they die, or that says man has immortality now, or that the soul cannot die.
posted
Ecclesiastes is ABSOLUTELY the inspired word of God. It is an inspired record. Scripture isn't a "how to manual", although it does tell us how to live. It records the good, the bad and the ugly, showing consequences. We must take note that the Teacher says he is On Purpose doing wicked things to see what will happen. To then use what he says about the afterlife, when it contradicts what Jesus says would be questionable.
The rest of your post is just strange. To say our bodies become dust isn't at all the same as saying we cease to exist when our bodies die.
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
What do you think Jesus meant by this, Jeff? Is it a leap to say this has something to do with death?
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
posted
I don't believe it is a leap. It has somewhat to do with death but death is not the main point Jesus is making. What I believe Jesus is saying is that no matter what men do to us they cannot effect our eternal life. They might destroy our reputation, take away everything we have, and even take our life. But there is nothing they can do to destroy our soul, our eternal life. But let's not forget that God can destroy both the body and the soul.
I believe our main contention is whether the soul is conscience at death or whether it sleeps waiting for the resurrection. All through the OT the expression is used, "And [he] slept with his fathers." Jesus always referred to death as sleep. When Lazarus died he told his disciples that he slept. When the daughter of Jairus died Jesus said, "Don't weep; She is not dead, but sleepeth." Even Paul writes about those who sleep in Jesus. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." He doesn't talk about them as being conscious but asleep. They sleep in their dusty beds waiting for God to call them forth unto life eternal. (Job 7:21; Dan. 12:2).
Why didn't Jesus say they were in heaven? Why did he simply say they were sleeping? Why did Jesus refer to death as sleep? I believe it was as if Jesus was telling us, "You don't know death. This is not death." The book of Revelation talks about a first resurrection and a second death. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power." I believe this second death is that which Jesus referred to when he said, "Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." The second death involves the lake of fire. Those who take part of the second resurrection will be cast into the lake of fire and experience what scripture calls "the second death." Men are appointed to die once, and then the judgment (Heb 9:27). But men are not appointed to die twice. Jesus has died this second death for those who accept his death as their own. But all those who do not receive his forgiveness will indeed die the second death.
Now I am not saying that when our mortal body dies we cease to exist. Because I believe we "live on" in God's memory. After all, I do believe in the resurrection. God is able to bring us back to life. But he is neither dependent upon a physical body nor an immortal soul. God can bring us to life from nothing and in just the state we were in at death or in glorified bodies. Neither is beyond his ability. But what I am saying is that scripture speaks of this first death as a sleep while waiting for the resurrection. In sleep we are not aware of what is happening around us. We fall asleep and the next thing we know we awake.
The soul is not independent of the physical body. The physical body provides the external interface to the surrounding environment. Without a body we would have none of our senses. No nose to smell, no eyes to see, no mouth to taste, no skin to feel, no ear to hear, no mind in which to store data with which to reason. Scripture speaks of the soul in this manner. God created man from the dust of the earth. He breathed into this lifeless form the breath of life. Then and only then did man become a living soul. (Gen 2:7)
Was man then a dead soul before Jesus gave him life? Is there any such thing as a dead soul? I don't think so. The formula is dust + breath of life = living soul. If you remove the breath of life wouldn't the body cease to be a living soul? Psalm 146 and verse 4 gives the equation in reverse. "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." In other words, he is no longer a living soul. You say the soul is conscience and is aware of what is happening around it. I say the soul is sleeping and is not aware of what is going on anywhere. I am not saying we can search out these sleeping souls. I believe the soul of a deceased man can only "live" in the memory of God; in his books of remembrance.
When God calls us forth from the grave then we receive glorified bodies. We are never meant to float around without bodies. How could we even think without a data bank? How would we interface with the outside world? If you think this would be acceptable to you just ask someone like Stephen Hawkins or Christopher Reeve what it like to be conscience and not have a working body. What you are talking about is like have a software program floating around outside of a computer. Sure, it's an accurate record of what the computer could and did do but it is not able to function without the interfaces, memories, power, and logic chips. I think this more accurately describes what you call our soul. It is an accurate record of who we are but without the "hardware" it cannot function.
Sleep, or death as we know it-- Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Now, I have given at least two verses in scripture which say very plainly that when a man dies this thoughts cease. (See Ecc 9:5, Ps 146:4). And many others which plainly says that a man sleep in death which is closer to an unconscious state rather than a conscious one. And you still believe otherwise. Yet, you have yet to give me a scripture which says that a man's thoughts continue after death. Could you please provide the multitude of your evidence since one proof text does not a doctrine make?
Email this page to someone.
