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Over the last two weeks I have read extensively upon this site about a variety of topics and truth. This has been somewhat encouraging although some questions just won't leave me. The primary one remains, "What are we doing as the body of Christ to be about Our Fathers business." The key word of course is "body". I was born again through a para-church group called "The Navigators". As such I learned to fellowship on a daily basis. This fellowship included almost every aspect of Biblical Christian ministry. In very few other junctures in my Christian life and service has my life been so solid and powerful as those times. Note that even in the beginning with very limited and often misunderstood doctrine and zeal without knowledge God still used me. There is a lesson to be learned in this. On this site we talk and share from The Bible and our hearts what God is teaching us and this is good as far as that goes. But as a body, house church or not, what are we doing? If we are merely encouraging each other to seek Him great. If we are being taught one to another, great. But does this not pale with the truth that God can do exceedingly abundantly above and beyond all we ask or think[Ephesians 3:20]. And lest I forget....according to the power that works mightily within us. If you do not personally believe God will do this in and through you your reading this is likely in vain. This is for those who believe that they will be filled with all the fulness of God, even unto the stature that belongs to Jesus Christ. By the way the latter is a command. I agree wholeheartedly that who we are becoming is more important at least initially than what we attempt to do for God. We cannot impart to others what we ourselves do not possess. We cannot bring life unto others unless an undoing and dying daily is taking place. I was somewhat surprised to find two topics upon this site that were strangely lacking. One was no articles on prayer and not even a page on the cross of Christ. One righteous man's prayers will accomplish more than all of our conversing together will(witness the power of the prophets prayers)and the cross of Christ is the bedrock doctrine that without leaves us severely lacking in all things which encompass our salvation, not to mention the latter being the focal point of all of history! A while back I mentioned in an article that I am working upon a project and I asked for your wisdom and advice. Many of you I knew would balk at another ministrty as if that is what we need. I tell you the truth, whether mine or someone elses this is exactly what we need. Not just another though, but one that is true to the new testament direction for churches. This is my aim. I want to refute the premise that starting new house churches here and there will ever become a witness to the world and why. I am not so naive to think The Spirit is not working among you , nor am I against these unique house church fellowships. I am with you although I think I see a bigger picture than many of you presently do. We have talked about many things upon this site. In some ways many of us are on the same page, as those who believe in house churchs we all are. There is one thing we are lacking though- a unity of purpose, a wineskin that brings a degree of structure and organization that is necessary because- 1)An individual house church only has so much exposure and therefore cannot have the necessary ability to draw more than a few people into it's midst. Furthermore, there is no way to adequately warn those ensnared in ICC fellowships of what is coming as a result of such small units. There are many ICC'S which are breaking off into numerous cell groups that are actively promoting their humanistic and new age agendas from within and without. Due to Rick Warrens "Purpose Driven Life" and "Purpose Driven Church" books millions of people are already deceived and the plague is spreading rapidly. Welcome the worldwide universal church presently called "The Apostolic Reformation" among other things. See the many articles about this disease at: Church Growth Movement.com. The trends and false doctrine promoted by those in these churches? are the greatest threat the present real church has ever faced. In the end there will be very little left of the church as we have known it. There will be two kinds of house assemblies though- one real and one false. With their organization and sheer numbers and capital we will be easy prey as our divided house church bodies will be powerless to stop them! I am not afraid to suffer, I have gone through more serious difficulties in the last year than all of my 41 previously. That isn't the issue. The issue is how will we contend for the faith as a fractured body when the world's church is on the march with real passion and intensity. 2)A wineskin is also necessary to safeguard the precious truths of God's Word. We all know some house churches are reverting to old ways and distorting the truth. And those who are forced out of their ICC'S (See Rick Warren and Saddleback Church again) will not know where or who to turn to. It is our responsibility to either find these brothers and sisters or provide a way for them to find us. 3)A wineskin is necessary for expansion. Many who would choose to go to a house church have none near them. If a basic outline of house church fellowships(guidelines not rules)were accessible many would participate or even begin one themselves. They need guidance that only those involved in house church can give them(YOU). 4)A wineskin is necessary to keep the world's influence out of the church. The spirit of worldliness that prevails in the assemblies is due to those unequally yolked folks. 5)A wineskin is necessary for the proclamation of the gospel to go forth with power. In individual house churches there may be worship, there may be prayer, breaking of bread and The Word. There needs to be more. There needs to be a basic outline of for all city and house churches to follow as a means to retain a practical unity among each other and before the world. Beyond that those bodies can function in whatever manner they Spirit leads them. 6)A wineskin [the city and house church assemblies]are necessary for God created them Himself. God wants order- He plainly says so. He also wants us to plan for the plans of the diligent lead surely to advantage. We can and do sometimes criticize ICC's and not without good reason. But when I truly embrace Christs cross I see a much greater problem, and that problem is me. It's that attitude that says I'm doing something better than them. It's that bitter and resenful spirit that says they should have been there for me or given me an opportunity. It's that tendency to forget about them now that I'm gone, not bothering to whisper a prayer for those people or past friendships. It's that false belief that somehow I'm different than them when in reality my life is just as segregated with those who think and act just like me. It makes my life so much easier. I can't speak for you, though I am responsible for those people I left. Those who once looked up to me or hated me without cause. If there still in bondage it's because I have failed to persevere in leading them to the truth. I gave up on them but God spared me. My friends. Think of the joy and power of that new testament church. Think how much you desire to be used in that fashion. Think of the witness and power God gave those simple fragile men and women. Then ask yourself this question, "Do I really believe God can and WILL DO exceedingly abundantly beyond ALL I(or we)ask or think? If you do, be assured that will not happen by accident.It will not spontaneously come to fruition. It will take action by those who know the need of the hour(US). In those times of real devotion and faithfulness in my past several things were evident. 1)I had a passionate daily devotional life. 2)I studied God's Word regularly- to know and to know Him. 3)I prayed daily with others, often hours at a time. 4)Our fellowship had a plan and everything we chose to do in life was according to what we believed was God's specific direction for us. 5)We had a specific outreach each week. The above is not a formula. It is simple obedience to what God declares for us. When you rise up...when you lay down etc... Sound familiar? When and if we decide to act be assured that those actions will not go unnoticed. I do not think our adversary is too concerned about our radical chats any more than he is about organized religion. He is very concerned about anyone or any ministry that emphasizes the very practical dying to self which breeds resurrection life in us and others. That message he will not tolerate without a war. In Christ we are dead to sin and the law. In Christ the old nature and flesh was crucified. In Christ we now have our being, recreated to walk in the train of Christs triumphs. There are over 400 registered people on this site that are supposedly "radical" for Jesus. Many of you are more knowledgable than I. I'm looking for at least two of you. The two I have prayed for over the years. The two that really believe God can and will use you. I do not expect you to adopt or accept my entire proposal in implementing the church that I believe God desires once again. I do want honest feedback from those who are willing to do whatever it takes to launch this on a worldwide scale. Over the internet for starters. If you are so bold or inclined to attempt to change the world consider the cost. Know that if you choose to walk such a road several things will you find in me- 1)An absolute willingness to be subject to those who choose to help in this pursuit. 2)A willingness to discuss my material and alter where necessary what we believe God has shown us thus far. 3)An absolute refusal to claim the ministry as my own despite being it's founder. 4)A daily laying down of my life before my frinds regardless of what we do or do not agree upon. 5)A willingness to see this matter through no matter how long it takes to formulate what we together believe is God's will in this matter. 6)A minimum of one hour per day in prayer for you as individuals researching this matter. If after a minimum of thirty days in prayer regarding this pursuit you believe God has led you to pursue the matter further I will need from you- ~A home address or P.O. Box where I can send a church manual to you. ~A thorough appraisel of my materials in whole or in part over time. Please note exactly which sections you are referencing. ~A specific prayer listing for yourself, family etc. ~To pray for me on occasion as I have little faithful encouragement. In closing out this matter...
"I am grateful Father for the abundant grace you have extended toward those You call Your children. In these days of shallow religion, constant compromise and false profession we ask that You glorify Your name once again throughout the earth. What you have accomplished in Christ on our behalf is too awesome to behold and yet you chose to act in this fashion. You left us His example, Your promises and The Holy Spirit for the work You now call us to do. May we see as we have yet to see the promise that our future holds, not for wealth, not for self, nor any experience do we seek. We seek one thing only Lord, the result of believing in what you have accomplished in a finished work, the opportunity we have that in dying we might walk in newness of life. Quicken Father the seed that Thou has sown, may mighty faith conquer the impossible and living hope be our anchor as we go. May we always remember Your Yes and Amen and fully realize Your potential and not our own. Amen."
Thank You for those I have found in this place, through trial upon trial I read of determined face, The few, not the many to them they have seen, The beginning of Your purpose, a home church for the redeemed,
And looking yet further, may they find in Your heart, A strong willing Master Your grace to impart, For the future is not a mere safeguard for me, But to all that You call, those chosen to be free,
Let us then go and discover Your way, A plan into action in time to relay, To those who are waiting and crying for those, Their brothers and sisters who also You chose.
You ask for some honest input. Here’s mine. I hope you understand that all growth and ministry is the Lord’s and not our own to decide how to “organize” it.
quote: I was born again through a para-church group called "The Navigators". As such I learned to fellowship on a daily basis. This fellowship included almost every aspect of Biblical Christian ministry. In very few other junctures in my Christian life and service has my life been so solid and powerful as those times.
If this was such a great time in your life, I have to wonder why you are interested in starting a new group?
quote: I was somewhat surprised to find two topics upon this site that were strangely lacking. One was no articles on prayer and not even a page on the cross of Christ.
Matthew 6:5-7 (KJV) And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. [6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. [7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Maybe it is because prayer is a very private, special and intimate time with God. Maybe it is because prayer is something we do; instead of talking about how to do. Maybe it is because everyone agrees we should pray. Topics often lean toward discussing differing views or hard passages. Maybe you should start a topic on prayer.
quote: Many of you I knew would balk at another ministrty as if that is what we need. I tell you the truth, whether mine or someone elses this is exactly what we need. Not just another though, but one that is true to the new testament direction for churches. This is my aim. I want to refute the premise that starting new house churches here and there will ever become a witness to the world and why. I am not so naive to think The Spirit is not working among you , nor am I against these unique house church fellowships. I am with you although I think I see a bigger picture than many of you presently do.
I certainly don’t mean to balk but it seems it is your ministry you are birthing as in “my aim” and “I see a bigger picture”.
Acts 8:4 (KJV) Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
And how could you see a bigger picture than that? The disciples did preach every where. Many are waiting for the gospel to go to all the world for the end. However, the gospel went to all the world during the disciples lifetimes. The end times started with Christ first advent and it is the Lord’s longsuffering, waiting for the last soul to be saved that prevents the end.
quote: There is one thing we are lacking though- a unity of purpose, a wineskin that brings a degree of structure and organization that is necessary because- 1)An individual house church only has so much exposure and therefore cannot have the necessary ability to draw more than a few people into it's midst.
We are never told to unify through organization. Nor are we told we will draw a multitude of people or claim the “world” for Christ. Few find the narrow way. The world hates us and Christ. They can’t come unless God draws them---we don’t.
Matthew 7:14 (KJV) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
John 15:18-19 (KJV) If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. [19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:32 (KJV) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
AS for the size of home church, If you would take a look at the pyramid type growth, you would see one tells 2 and they each tell 2 who each tell 2 and so on. It is possible for growth to escalate from a small number. Thus, throughout a person’s lifetime, how many people could they have witnessed to? How many could those who actually believed from that group witness to? Your logic is worldly. Big isn’t better.
quote: There will be two kinds of house assemblies though- one real and one false. With their organization and sheer numbers and capital we will be easy prey as our divided house church bodies will be powerless to stop them!
I do agree there are two types of house church, real and false. Thus, we must beware of who we join with for fellowship. As for stopping them,
Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
John 16:33 (KJV) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Where does scripture teach we are to stop the world? Rather the world will not prevail against the church for Christ has overcome the world.
Galatians 3:28 (KJV) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
The body of Christ is not a divided house but we are “ one in Christ Jesus.”
Luke 13:27 (KJV) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Notice it is Christ who will handle the false churches regardless of size or denomination, etc. as he tells them to depart into the lake of fire on judgment.
quote: And those who are forced out of their ICC'S (See Rick Warren and Saddleback Church again) will not know where or who to turn to. It is our responsibility to either find these brothers and sisters or provide a way for them to find us.
Where does scripture state we are to find them or they us? The Lord is the Shepherd and he finds his lost sheep and brings them to his fold.
John 10:14-16 (KJV) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
quote: They need guidance that only those involved in house church can give them(YOU).
Where does scripture state they need guidance by men
1 John 2:27 (KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
You might want to check out all the passages regarding pastors and such. They are not portrayed in very good light. There are to even be few teachers; but rather brothers and sisters in Christ.
quote: I do want honest feedback from those who are willing to do whatever it takes to launch this on a worldwide scale.
quote: If you are so bold or inclined to attempt to change the world consider the cost.
Again I must say, the Lord has already launched his church in the world and the world refuses to be a part of it.
quote:2)A willingness to discuss my material and alter where necessary what we believe God has shown us thus far. ~A home address or P.O. Box where I can send a church manual to you.
Again you refer to your ministry as in, “my material”. As for “a church manual”,
Luke 4:4 (KJV) And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
The word of God is the only “manual” needed. The soul purpose for man’s life is to “fear God, and keep his commandments.” Our lives’ purpose is not to change the world; but rather to come out of the world and live for God.
Eccles. 12:13 (KJV) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
As for evangelizing the world, we are to be lights not organizers.
Philip. 2:15 (KJV) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Matthew 5:14-16 (KJV) Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. [15] Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. [16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
I get the impression that you are wanting to lead a big evangelical revival or something, taking the world for Christ. However, if we look at the scriptures, we see that near the end, just before Christ comes, there is a great apostasy or falling away from the faith. I believe we are in that time now and more and more are falling away. They continue to refuse to repent. There will be only a remnant at Christ return as the world continues silencing the word of God throughout the world. I do not see any scripture that states the church will become more visible or bigger or greater in the world. Rather we keep our eyes on things above that we may remain faithful in this evil world.
As for what the body of Christ is doing?
Matthew 6:1-4 (KJV) Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. [2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. [3] But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: [4] That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
There are many ways in which we can let our light shine by our actions in loving our fellow men. However, because we are small our deeds aren’t seen of masses of people on TV, etc.. Rather the light is seen by those who receive it’s warmth. Those to who the alms are given; those to who a kind word is said; those to who a good deed is done; those see what the body of Christ is doing as they see Christ in the lives of his believers. Another reason you may not see what the church is doing is that it does not toot it’s own horn; but rather does good deeds in Christ -------not my deed, our deed, etc., but his deeds.
Many years ago I was a new Christian hunting for God’s people via a visible church body I could meet with. I found many pretenders. Finally, I was shown that the church is made up of many small groups or families. Two or three here, five there, 10 or 15 there, maybe even 50 somewhere. All these little families are growing in Christ, shining their lights to the world in which they live. They live everywhere; but aren’t visible to the world. They aren’t visible to us either unless we realize it is not an organization like man creates. They are all tied together by Christ in them. What better organization that the leading of the Holy Spirit? Sometimes our paths will cross and we’ll fellowship.
I believe the scattering in the world is done for a purpose. We are not only light, but also salt. Too much salt in one place is not good. Just a little salt sprinkled everywhere makes for a good seasoning. Remember at the end, the tares are the ones bundled together first, to burn, and the church is then gathered from the ends of the earth from which it is scattered. Thus, let’s quit trying to make bundles and let our lights shine where they are or where God takes us.
I hope you will not think I’m too hard on you; but take this with the spirit of love as intended.
In Christ, Faith
BTW, I hope others will address this issue with their understanding.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
I'm new here and am digesting material on this bulletin board. I have a question about this quote from the initial post in this thread:
"There are many ICC'S which are breaking off into numerous cell groups that are actively promoting their humanistic and new age agendas from within and without. Due to Rick Warrens "Purpose Driven Life" and "Purpose Driven Church" books millions of people are already deceived and the plague is spreading rapidly"
Please help me understand what is wrong in Rick Warren's books/theology. I just recently prayed with a sister to accept Christ (first time I've ever done this - PRAISE GOD!) and I suggested that we go through the 40 days of Purpose book together as a way to disciple her.
I am eager to hear what new age agenda is contained in this book.
-------------------- Blessings, Lea Ann Savage Satellite Beach, FL 321-773-7088 Philippians 4:8
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Hi Agapemom, If you want to know who Rick Warren really is. Please borrow (don't waste money to buy the garbage) and read his "Purpose driven church" in which you will see he promotes Man centred worship. What does he claim in his "Purpose driven life"? You life would change after 40 days? What if it doesn't happen? You have to sign a covenant with who reading that book? Rick Warren? I'd let the bigger brothers & sisters here to explain how he manipulated Bible verses to support what he wanted to say...
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I'm working on researching Rick Warren and have learned a LOT!
Does anyone have a suggestion for a good resource I could use to disciple my friend? We attend a Methodist Church and sad to say but all she'll hear from the pulpit is God's love and Grace (all true) but nothing of man's sin or any message exhorting a believer to deny the self, study the scriptures, persist in prayer... etc.
-------------------- Blessings, Lea Ann Savage Satellite Beach, FL 321-773-7088 Philippians 4:8
I would start by reading the NT with her. As questions arise, get a concordance and look up other scriptures dealing with the questions. If things seem to contradict, use the Hebrew-Greek dictionary in the concordance to see if you actually understand the words. Use the concordance or a topical bible to find other passages dealing with the subject. (I use Strong's Concordance with a KJV Bible) Sometimes I use topical bibles like Nave's or other topical books to locate more on a subject. However, I tend to stay away from commentaries (men's opinions). A Bible Dictionary is also useful at times. If you don't have these, you can find many things on line. crosswalk.com has Bibles, concordances, dictionaries,and other study helps.
You may prefer to start with some word studies to gain understanding of specific issues like sin, dying to self and prayer. Look up all verses and pray for understanding. I think it is important to ask for understanding before study. Remember our teacher is the Holy Spirit.
1 John 2:27 (KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
John 14:26 (KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 16:24 (KJV) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
Remember the Bible is the manual we need. There is no man-made book or course that has it all. Any course type book you use will have errors in it. Use them only as an outline, proving if what they say is true by studing the scriptures daily.
Acts 17:11 (KJV) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
God Bless and lead you, Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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