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Hi Hi, Isn't it dangerous to look for one in a house? It's safer to start one with the family and relatives or other Christian friends who are willing to study the Bible. I hope the big brothers and sisters can provide more help here.
I agree, Chubbena. I had been "homechurching" for maybe 15-16 years before actually hearing of the homechurch movement. While I was thrilled to see others had come out of the denominations, I also saw that some were just small versions of the same thing. Some set up their own small systems and set one man over them or maybe a small group of men over them. Many seemed to have much of the baggage from the denominations that they left. I was suprised how many felt they had to meet with others inorder to be part of the church, even though they had left. I came to understand that two or three is all that needs to meet. That makes for a family, doesn't it? I'm sure even one person can fellowship with the Lord, as those exiled or imprisioned.
We should let our lights shine, witness the Lord whenever and where ever we can. If God wants to bring others into fellowship with you, he will. But don't make fellowshiping the goal. Be the church. Enjoy fellowship where ever. We've had opportunities to travel and meet others of like mind for brief momments that were much more memorable and spirit filled that trying to find or start a group.
Once a lady called me and ask if I homechurched in response to something I had written as a witness for the Lord. This person had come out of a denomination. But her husband and her had tried to start a church and it flopped. They were now looking for a group. I suggested that maybe they should just study scriptures together and wait for the Lord to bring others if that was his will. I did not invite them to meet with us for I felt it was not the Lord's will. He needed them in the wilderness to set them strait and get rid of their desire to start something themselves.
I think Chubbena is correct. Start with your own family. You can learn so much when you don't have so many different distractions. Then if you have friends who are interested, talk to them. It doesn't need to be a formal meeting time or place. I think much of the hurt and failure of those who try to start church groups comes from the fact they think one must do certain things like meet at a certain time, place, and have certain things planned to do. Then it becomes the goal. Just talk to folks like you talk to your neighbors. If they are interested, you might begin to socialize a bit with them to discuss scriptures and maybe things will grow from there.
The goal is for you to fellowship with God and his word and share with others regardless of the outcome. (Most will reject the word.) It's too easy to get into the rut of going to instead of being the church. So get that Bible out, get some Bible helps like an online concordance and get busy so you'll have something to share when the opportunity arises.
Sanceria, May God bless and lead you and your family, Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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You might want to consider that perhaps Sanceria does not have a family, or may have an antagonistic family. All Christians do not have a nice Christian family with whom they can meet and study.
It is easy to say to leave them in the wilderness to see what God wants them to learn, but very often we need people around us to help us learn.
I'm certainly familar with antagonistic family. While I do have some who are not, most are and I might add very antagonistic. My point is not to leave anyone out in the wilderness; but rather God will deal with everyone and gather them together if he wishes. In the example I gave, I was sure that God did not want me to invite these to join me. His spirit was very clear on that. There are certain lessons that can only be learned alone in the wilderness with God.
My advice to Sanceria was meant to encourage that a believer is the church and doesn't need to go out looking for the church.
I didn't always have ones who understood either. While alone with God, I listened to him only. Then, when listening to others I could tell if they were of the same spirit or not for I could hear him in their speech. However, had I fellowshiped with others before, I would have listened to and been swayed by them. What a disaster if they were not of his spirit.
When I first became a Christian, I thought I had to meet in a building called a church with people who proclaimed to be Christian. However, I found church , as such, to be very dangerous, as Chubbena mentioned. There are several dangers. Do you know who they really are? Could they be dangerous people? Most danger I have seen was in actual public churches full of wolves. Spiritual danger! Who is to say if the wolves aren't now entering the homechurch scene since it is growing. Sometimes it is hard to tell between a homechurch and a cell church which is a dangerous system. Thus, we must not let our desire to meet with others cloud our common sense.
So what is happening to the home churches today with so many thinking they must meet in larger groups and tie all groups together, etc.? What happened to the 2 or 3 cry? Why the sudden interest in growth? Sounds a lot like the regular denominations churches to me. Growth, power, money. All our little 2 or 3's or 5 or 10's are infact networked together---not by men; but by the holy spirit. Do we really need to fix that?
If the Lord wants others to meet with you, I think he will make a way to get aquainted without hanging a sign on the door welcoming all, even wolves.
There is a song that speaks about those who are dying in their comfortable pews. I think we should learn a lesson from what has happened in the organized churches. We should not spend our time trying to connect and organize home churches; lest they get too comfortable in their fellowshipping and neglect to go out and speak for the Lord.
For those totally alone, there are many sites on the net in which one can discuss and learn from the scriptures without having to find folks near to meet with. Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Do you think it is wrong for House Churches to be listed in a directory such as the one provided by Housechurch.org? Is that hanging a sign out?
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Yes, it is like hanging a sign out for it is a public invite to all who see it. I won't say it is wrong; but it could be dangerous. You see all who profess to be Christian aren't. The wolves gather anywhere they can get their foot in the door.
There must be some criteria besides looking for a "homechurch" in order to have meaningful fellowship. Seems like many to day shop for a church, be it organized or home meetings. There are just as many flavors of homechurch as there are IC's. Thus, the need to be careful.
As far as I remember in scripture it was the Lord who added to the church and somehow got them together. There was no open door or closed door policy but the Lord brought them together. Often it started small with one or two who then witnessed to family or friends and it grew from there.
As for the idea that some need others to learn, I believe God is quite capable of teaching his own. Remember his sheep know him and hear him. He sent the Holy Ghost to teach us.
John 10:26-27 (KJV) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
1 John 2:27 (KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Hebrews 8:11 (KJV) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
As for expecting much growth today, in the last days many will fall away. Men wax worse and worse, thus, few believe. Narrow it the way. Men will refuse to repent. Thus, there is to be no huge revival with masses coming to the Lord. I don't see scriptures to state that we must organize and network or gather together the various small groups either. Rather when the Lord returns he will gather them from the ends of the earth.
2 Thes. 2:3 (KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
I think we must be wary of those gathering bundles together today. Notice who are bundled together first.
Matthew 13:30 (KJV) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
I also find it interesting that his children are mentioned as being scattered abroad and that he will gather them.
John 11:52 (KJV) And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Acts 8:1-4 (KJV) And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. [2] And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. [3] As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. [4] Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
1 Peter 1:1 (KJV) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Only God can see into the hearts of men and thus gather his sheep into his fold. Men tend to bungle it every time.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
In this world crawling with deceitful people I can understand one not wanting to "have a sign." Thus I have never advised anyone to put their name in a listing of house churches who had reservations about it.
However, I happen to notice that Paul addressed many people by their names and towns and noted that they were gathering in homes. Whether someone's cover was about to be blown seemed to be of little concern. He directed that his letters be circulated, too. Personally, I think he would have been delighted if unbelievers came across copies of them and studied their noble contents. Imo.
Jesus warned us that if we were ashamed of Him he would respond in kind before his Father. He also preached that a city on a hill couldn't be hid.
Two of the families with which we meet each week found us via our occasional summer meetings at a local park. The strange thing was that more than a year went by before they contacted us.
In actuality, we don't know who we are extending hospitality to. Some, you recall, entertained angels, unaware. But we are to extend it which implies to me that our faith cannot be an underground thing. Exactly how those hospitality exhortations relate to our home meetings I don't exactly know.
Faith, I enjoy your posts much. They are always well thought out.
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Paul did address many in various places. How did he get to know them in the first place? The church started in one location and spread through neighborhoods. Often one family member, then friends & aquaintances etc. Remember towns were smaller and everybody knew everybody. I remember at least one letter where a disciple was sent to another group and introduced by another disciple. I forget who. They weren’t strangers but had mutual acquaintances. I also remember some didn’t want to accept Paul, who had been their persecutor, until others vouched for him.
I also remember of the disciples wanting to stop some from casting out demons because they weren’t in their fellowship group. Christ told them not to. Thus, all groups were not linked together by men but by Christ.
They were getting into denominationalism as: I follow Paul, I follow John, etc. They were not to make a big deal if some weren’t in their group for they were all to follow Christ. Some one else mentioned how hard it would be to get all homechurchers together for they have many different beliefs.
True Christ said we should not be ashamed of him. However, to have a quiet private place to retreat to is not being ashamed of him. Even Christ left not only the masses; but his disciples to pray and spend time with the Lord. We need a place to get away from the world. The whole purpose of man is to worship God and do his commands. Thus, we live our lives walking in the spirit, our light will shine to whoever is near when we are out there.
If you have ever experienced persecution from the worldly, especially the religious world, you would understand. What of the early church which met in catacombs? Why were they not hanging signs on the door? Soon you will see much of this in our own country.
True the light is not hid. However, many more can see the light if it is shared in a public media. How many folks would see a sign at my house compared to how many read this letter? The internet is a wonderful tool and there are many boards to let his light shine. Not everyone who reads is a Christian. Thus, we discuss with brothers and sisters and we speak to non believers too. There are other media and opportunities to get the word out in the public. The light is to shine to the dark lost world. Can’t we take the light to more away from our own home?
I’ve always noticed those who attend regular meeting, at least in the IC, do not have time to share their light outside the church walls. There are no letters to pass around to others. There are no discussions during the week with non-believers for they get their fill of spiritual talk at church. And there is no personal study and discovery of truth; but they tend to tow the party line of the group. There is no personal witness; rather they extend an invitation to visit the church walls.
I once told a pen pal by snail mail if I had to attend a church several times a week, I wouldn’t have time to study with her by mail. Neither would I have time to write and study with folks via the net. I’m sure more see my letters here than the ones that go by snail mail. But that is all in the Lord’s hands.
BTW, I don’t know what you meant about circulation of letters, what does not hanging a sign on the door have to do with that? One can write letters or articles on the net, by mail, in magazines and papers, etc. without a sign on the door. One can hand out flyers in town, well at least you used to be able to. Sometimes there are ordinances against it. It is not important who writes it or where they are, it is the message that counts.
As for hospitality, the good Samaritan was an example I think. He reached out to a person he happened upon. While he didn’t take him to his own home, he did extend much hospitality to the person letting Christ like goodness shine forth. We’ve entertained strangers who turned out to be devils rather than angels. Thus, how does hospitality play into the home church?
Seems Jesus went into others homes. Don’t remember any of the disciples taking him home with them; they usually got together in public. Then they went out and into others homes. Wasn’t it usually by invite by those who wanted to know more? We are to be ready to give answer to those who ask. Problem is few ask. Then there was Aquilla and Pricilla who took Apollos in for teaching and then he went out. However, they didn’t have a sign for all the world to see. Nor did they have a big meeting. I think the idea was to teach others the truth so they could go out their selves to others. The meeting was not the goal but rather a tool toward the goal of sending others out to share the gospel.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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It appears that this issue of visibility is perhaps partly one of whether the leaders of an individual hc feel that they are sufficiently well versed in scripture to risk interviewing the stranger that comes to the door. Perhaps some internet or telephone screening would be a good idea.
I am not confident that I could properly debate with a JW or Mormon, and so I avoid them. On the other hand, my grandfather, who knew scripture very well, did not hesitate to take on anyone who came to my parent's door, to the point that it was not long before those who were proselitizing in the neighbourhood were told by their superiors to stay away (My mother saw an older gentlemen of one of those groups pointing out our house to 2 young men, who then proceeded to knock at every door, except ours.)
The issue of referrals is all well and good, but it reminds of a rather legalistic group very similar to the denomination in which I was raised, who only recognized as brothers worthy of fellowship those who came with a letter of introduction from another group with whom the first group "had fellowship" (were on speaking terms). Otherwise, one had to sit at the back for a year or so, while they were observed, to determine if you were a suitable person with whom "to have fellowship". (demonstrated dedication and holiness by silently attending every service.) Not exactly welcoming to the new convert!
Somehow, each person has to determine where the line between safe and risky lies, and then move over it, just a little, take a little risk, and so prove our faith by reaching out to the lost. Our leadership holds primary responsibility for safeguarding the flock -- isolation is not the answer, as Satan is about, seeking those he may destroy, and he will find some, regardless of visiblity.
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Seems I’ve given the impression we never invite folks into our home or never speak out in public (visibly). However, that isn’t the case. We just don’t feel the need to play church by announcing a certain time each week that the world can come into our home. We don’t feel the need to go somewhere to have someone over us, nor do we feel the need to be over someone. (This is what the lady I screened on the phone wanted. She had many questions about how we churched; but none about what we believed.) BTW, she found me by reading an article I wrote in a public paper. Others have also found me in that manner, liking what I said; but content to stay in the IC.
A meeting of the church is to be private for brothers and sisters to encourage each other. While some may do that, others tend to get into the playing church syndrome by having clergy/laiety systems similar to the IC. We don’t worry about “how to” or who’s in charge, we just incorporate Christ and our beliefs into our everyday lives. He takes care of the whos, whats and whens.
We've had the JW in our house a few times. We were dumbfounded at first at what they said. Thus, we looked up scriptures in between times and confronted them the next. They refused to listen so we didn't invite them back. Later they showed up again and I was home without my husband; so I didn't invite the two men in. From the front porch, I confronted them head on about some of their beliefs and what scripture really said. They were running back to their car.
That is not the intent of home church; but something you, as a part of the church, have to deal with occasionally. It doesn't hurt to read a bit about the main teachings of such groups so you can deal with them. Take mental notes when talking with them the first time and be ready with an answer the next. I hunted some tracts about JW and made one of my own explaining how Jesus is God not satan's brother as they teach. However, they are content to stay away in their error.
Bruce, you are right that some denominations use cultish power to screen out folks. Even so, I think we aren't to hang a sign on the door welcoming all to our house. The house meetings in the scriptures were for believers---not the unbelievers. Unbelievers were usually confronted out in the world in public. However, we can invite those who show up on the door to discuss the scriptures and go from there. Had the JW been receptive to truth, we would have invited them back for more study.
I remember years ago a young man had car trouble near my folks home. They brought him in and fixed his car, fed him, let him spend several nights in the spare room, and witnessed to him. He had never heard the gospel before and was interested. Then he went on his way for he lived several states away and was traveling home. That could have been dangerous; but somehow they knew it was OK. Did he find the Lord? Well who knows, however the seed was planted.
Here are a few thing we can do without the help big church backing. Witness to neighbors who are interested in the scriptures. Don’t invite the folks for a specific Bible study at first. Rather speak of the Lord as the spirit nudges during a regular conversation. Give bibles, concordances, tracts etc. to those interested. Invite the receptive to come over and discuss scriptures. Most are not really interested or want a church with all the entertainment and programs. The word is not enough. Witness to family even if they think your nuts. Witness to folks met on the road. Give tracts and talk to folks in public squares during vacations and business trips. Talk to atheists you know and try to get them to see the churchanity that turned them off has nothing to do with the true God. Get specific tracts exposing Masonry, JW, etc. for use when the occasion arises. Leave tracts on cars with Masonic symbols or put in their donation cans. Publish articles in various media, newspapers, magazines, internet, etc. with the intent of getting people to really think about what they are doing and who they are serving.
If you’re afraid to study with others or don’t know what to say when they ask, what does the Bible say about __________ or what does it mean by __________? Don’t be afraid. Be honest. If you don’t have any idea, say so; but offer to sit down with a Bible and a good concordance and see what the Bible says about it. I've studied with several by mail, some off and on for years. My goal is always to point them to Christ not to me or any other as their teacher. I just love to explain how to get study helps like a concordance, Bible dictionary, etc. so they can examine any subject in scriptures for their selves. And to show them scriptures that explain the Holy Ghost is our teacher. Amazing that many don't know how to study or who is the teacher.
Somehow I think of the wise virgins with the spirit telling the foolish to go get the spirit for themselves. Each person will stand before God for his own life. Thus, isn't it good to get them started, share the way; but they have to travel the road, run the race their selves. Which is better, to give a man a fish or to show him how to fish? We must help others find the Lord and how to feed themselves rather than always spoon feed as in the IC.
quote:Our leadership holds primary responsibility for safeguarding the flock --
And now I must ask just who in home church are the leaders and who are the flock? We don't have apostles as the early church did, who were appointed by Christ to be the main speakers. One of the main reasons so many have come out to home church is they see the clergy/leader over the laity/flock as unscriptural and abusive!
As I understand the scriptures, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ with none above the other. Christ is the head of the church and of each individual Christian. Only the husband is given the role of head over his wife and family. No one else is named head of anyone that I know of in the Bible. Scriptures explain that there is one shepherd and his sheep hear him and he will gather them into one flock. Thus, why the need for us to try to gather others under us, as in leader over a flock? When Christ returns, he will gather all his wheat; but not until then. Until then they grow in the world with the tares. It is the tares that are gathered first in to bundles----could be groups, denominations, etc.?
What is the purpose of the home church? I think just like the church is made up of the people of God, the home church is made of the people of the home. It is a small family who believe in Christ and maybe a few like-minded acquaintances. They are in essence part of the whole church but Christ hasn't gathered them all together yet. Their purpose isn't to gather more into their fold; but to point others to Christ's fold and those then go on to show others
Just because you don’t hang a sign and hold a service every week, doesn’t mean you are in isolation. In fact, just as those in the IC tend to be very isolated only talking of God at church, it would be very easy to get in the same kind of isolation in a home church. The main goal is to live for God and to share him with the world, by word, by deed, etc. We are to be ready with an answer for those who ask. Not all can go out and stand in public and cry out the truth; but there are ways we can reach out to the lost. I’ve given just a few examples. How about others sharing their ideas of reaching out.
Our main purpose in life is not holding meetings as such but:
Eccles. 12:13 (KJV) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
James 1:27 (KJV) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
John 8:31-32 (KJV) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Teaching the nations doesn’t mean gathering them into a fold, but pointing them to Christ.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
In the lists of gifts, there is the gift of pastor (not to be confused with the IC office of pastor). The gift is to be a pastor, a shepherd, a caregiver, a guard. To guard the local flock, that person must know scripture and be able to use it and apply it to identify dangers to less mature Christians. Also, Paul appointed elders. The characteristics of elders are listed. In any group of Christians, some are going to be more knowledgeable than others, some are going to be more mature than others, some are going to be better able to confront the agents of the enemy.
Most persons are going to listen to and follow the person who they see as closer to the ideal than themself. Hence leaders. A leader is not an authoritarian "my way or the highway" person, but rather a person who sets a good example -- Paul instructed Timothy to be a good example.
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In examining Ephes. 4:11-12, it is necessary to look back a few passages to see what is being said and to whom. Paul is speaking to the Gentiles. Paul received the mystery of the Gospel directly from the Lord. Men didn’t teach him.
Ephes. 3:1-3 (KJV) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, [2] If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: [3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Note the mystery was not made know in the past ages, OT era, but now is revealed to the apostles and prophets by the spirit. Does that mean there are apostles and prophets in our day or didn’t the word “now” refer to Paul’s time? Others besides Paul were receiving revelations. How about the apostle John who received the book of revelations?
Ephes. 3:4-6 (KJV) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) [5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Paul didn’t decide to be a minister. Other men didn’t appoint Paul to be a minister. God’s grace made him a minister.
Ephes. 3:7-9 (KJV) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. [8] Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; [9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Christ is the ultimate gift we have received.
Ephes. 4:4-7 (KJV) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Men do receive other gifts.
Ephes. 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
The Holy Ghost is given to all saints to comfort and teach them.
Acts 2:38 (KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:45 (KJV) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Eternal life is given to the saints.
Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Some gifts mentioned are prophecy which is the testimony of Christ, ministry which is helping and serving others, teaching, and exhortation or encouraging others.
Romans 12:6-8 (KJV) Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; [7] Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; [8] Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
1 Cor. 12:1 (KJV) Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
I found it interesting that 1 Cor. 12:4-6 explains that there are not only different gifts but different administrations and different operations. Thus, we can see why we don’t all do things the same way even though we are of the same spirit and belong to the same Lord.
1 Cor. 12:4-6 (KJV) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. [5] And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. [6] And there arediversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
A list of the gifts given doesn’t list the position of apostle or prophet, etc. as gifts; but rather I believe those people would use their gift just as we might. An apostle might speak wisdom or knowledge, a teacher speak a prophecy or discern a spirit, etc.
1 Cor. 12:8-10 (KJV) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; [9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; [10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
Does Ephes. 4:11-12 say that some receive the gift of being an apostle or prophet, etc? No, these designations are not the gift themselves. Rather some of the churches had an apostle, some had a prophet, some had pastors and others teachers. These were people who served the saints.
Ephes. 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephes. 4:13-14 (KJV) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Not all churches had an apostle, not all had a pastor and so on. Thus, to say today that all groups need a pastor to keep the flock safe is unscriptural. During Paul’s life some churches had prophets and apostles. Today we have those same apostles and prophets by reading his word. We are told, just as Paul told the Ephesians, to follow God, walk in love and let no man deceive us but to study ourselves and prove what is acceptable to the Lord. While we can have those who use their gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12; those people do not protect us. We are admonished to protect ourselves by staying grounded in the scriptures.
Ephes. 5:1-2 (KJV) Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; [2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Ephes. 5:6 (KJV) Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Ephes. 5:10-11 (KJV) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. [11] And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Then Paul goes on to give us more advice on what to do.
Ephes. 5:17-19 (KJV) Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. [18] And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; [19] Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Ephes. 5:21 (KJV) Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
I notice he states the church is subject to Christ, not to pastors, apostles, and such; because all in the church are only members of his body. He is the head; the one giving the orders and setting the limits. Does the hand tell the foot where to go or what to do? No, the head or brain tells both the hand and the foot what to do. They seemingly do different things; but the head has them work together even though they can’t see it. ( The feet travel to a certain place so the hands can do a certain work at that place.)
Ephes. 5:24 (KJV) Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Ephes. 5:30 (KJV) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
No where in this passage does it tell the sheep that they need a pastor to keep them safe; but for each to “be strong in the Lord” and to put on his armor so you can stand against evil. Each has to stand before God his self.
Ephes. 6:10-13 (KJV) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
IMO, there are no apostles or prophets aside from those recorded in the scriptures. Some of the churches today may still have pastors, teachers and evangelists using their gifts. However, we can’t say all home churchers are to be pastors or to have pastors. We can’t say these pastors are protecting the flocks as it is very plain each Christian is to study the word and prove what God would have them do. They can’t leave their salvation in another’s hands.
As a peculiar nation of kings and priests ruling with Christ, how is it we need a pastor? Aren’t we to be priests for Christ sharing the word ourselves? Granted new Christians may benefit from mentoring by a more mature Christian. However, they do have a whole book full of prophets, apostles, and teachers to teach them of Christ with the spirit’s help. 1 Pet.2:9, Eph. 2:6, John14:26 & 1 John 2:27
Romans 8:38-39 (KJV) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Matthew 28:20 (KJV) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Romans 8:31 (KJV) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
In light of the last three passages above, does it sound like we need protection?
Most who have come out of IC must have at least some discernment and maturity or they would not see the need to HC. The same goes for those who come to Christ seeking him by reading his word rather than joining the closest group. Thus, we can’t say that all need a pastor, a teacher, etc. Some may need certain things and others may not. We must remember not to judge one just because they don’t follow with us or do things the way we do. It is not up to us to judge others.
Mark 9:40 (KJV) For he that is not against us is on our part.
Luke 9:49-50 (KJV) And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. [50] And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Romans 14:3-4 (KJV) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. [4] Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
quote:Most persons are going to listen to and follow the person who they see as closer to the ideal than themself. Hence leaders. A leader is not an authoritarian "my way or the highway" person, but rather a person who sets a good example -- Paul instructed Timothy to be a good example.
That is one reason there should not be a pastor, we are not to follow a person. It is this tendency that creates the authoritarian government of a group. It is certainly good to have good examples. However, we all can be examples at times and no one can be an example all the time or be correct on scripture all the time. Thus, the need to retain individual responsibility for one’s own destiny by relying on the Lord and the Holy Spirit to teach and guide us.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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