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Sunday,May 4th, is a big day for us. We will urge our spiritual babies(most 50 to 80 years old) to take their first steps- always exciting for proud,loving parents! June and I are preparing a lunch and demo of the Alpha program, at FBC Pawtucket. As the name implies, it is only a starting point in a spiritaul life, but a great way to show the old church what the new church of spirit will look like. We did the program 2 and a half years ago at a nearby Catholic church- and the rest is history!
June said to me "I hope you won't be disappointed, they're Baptists you know?" We are human, we look for results, but how can you really get down when you have the chance to work along with your lord? I think just the excitement of the build up- how many will come? How will it go? (I have 3 jokes to tell) How will they respond? that feeling is a reward in itself. Just for fun I'm also doing the announcements, and the scripture reading-John 10- the good sheppard during the morning service. Always a fine line between let Rich do it, and this is how you too can do it. Rich
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Baby steps - so true. The way is just that - a way... not a sudden arrival.
Very interesting and most unusual, Rich. Give us more info, please, on the Alpha program.
I have a burden to see traditional churches - especially old ones - move to multiple leadership rather than a single pastor. This would make things more interesting, employ more persons with their spiritual giftings, and free up funding for ministry, missions, and evangelism.
Don't get me wrong, I am as keen as ever in desiring to see house churches on every street in every town.
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I too want to see churches in every house, oh perhaps there is a difference.What I ask myself is what can we learn from 2000 years of experience? No matter how many times we hear about what Jesus wants us to do, we still don't want to do it,so we try to do a little and hope that's enough. So we miss out on earning valuable reward points. Even if we were to begin to focus the message on how valuable these reward points are, its still a tough sell.
What I am saying is I do not see any foundational change in message which can alter the bell shaped curve which represents the population's practice of/investment in Christian faith. If true, then how best to reach them?
How much better then, if our gifted radicals develop and help guide churches of several hundred? Meeting BOTH in private clusters, and public assembly. I can only assume, given the bell curve, that for every hero of the N.T. we read about there were hundreds maybe thousands in hiding! Yes, we need living heros today,always a minority. Alpha details next time. Rich
quote:Originally posted by Rich 1: I too want to see churches in every house, oh perhaps there is a difference.What I ask myself is what can we learn from 2000 years of experience? Rich
Rich, I hate to disagree, but in general I have to say that I haven't responded to a lot of your posts because I disagree with your premise: that there is something redeemable in Church-as we-know-it.
Believe me, I've pondered long and hard to come to this conclusion, because I "loved" church. Always. Had no bad experiences, was the Girl Friday for a dozen wonderful pastors from coast to coast.
But what we have learned from 2000 years of "church" history (and what I learned from 40 years of trying to follow Jesus the church way) is "This is not the Kingdom, and this is not what will win the nations and this is not going to bring the King back."
A person who calls themselves a Christian but does not do the things Jesus commanded is deceiving themselves. You cannot do the things Jesus commanded us to do inside a church facility, or even in "regular weekly meetings" at least not to the level of integrity He demands. When we hire professional clergy to do these things, we are plainly disobeying Jesus' command to ALL his disciples to minister, as he laid out in his words, for example, Matthew 25 (the "sheep and goats" story).
Can we have a soup kitchen in a church? Yes. But is that, "Loving my neighbor" to the same degree as having someone in my home? No way. Come on, canned spaghetti on folding chairs in the basement? I don't feel loved there, why would anyone else? Can I visit the sick, raise the dead, or even preach the gospel to the truly lost inside the compound? I can't.
Every family IS a spiritual entity, in the sense God intended. They may be the Kingdom of God or they may be a Synagogue of Satan, but it is our responsibility to invite them into the Kingdom of God, and to help them welcome the Kingdom of God into their home.
I'm concerned that you would be advocating Alpha course at this site. This is the ultimate Program of Programs, geared to make us rely on others for our spiritual life. Is it still done as a "talking head on video" series?
You seem to be sowing seeds of "going back to Egypt" here. What's up with that?
I'm assuming you are well intentioned, but remember we are total strangers. If I were to put the most suspicious possible cast on some things you are saying, I would read you Paul's riot act about the Judaizers.
But, I won't. I will only say, "Consider, my brother, what you have been liberated from! Don't go back there!"
Blessings to you, Glory to Jesus!
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
quote:Originally posted by Laurie Ann: Rich, I hate to disagree, but in general I have to say that I haven't responded to a lot of your posts because I disagree with your premise: that there is something redeemable in Church-as we-know-it.
Okay Laurie Ann, if it's okay for me to jump in here ...I was just wondering why you have given up hope that the traditional church can be salvaged. I guess I still want to make it work because I had wonderful times there. I also have "children" that I mentored that are
The truth is, I do think that everything has to be changed, but maybe it can. There are just so many people...
Be blessed, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
At the very least the people in the churches are redeemable. My guess is that includes even the pastors. I might even go so far as to say they have some wonderful outreach programs. What they lack is convicting, intelligent truths for our time. Christianity has undergone a "dumbing down." There is no goal to attain, no striving to be like Christ. The doctrines are as bland and palatable as chicken soup. Nearly all the churches have become non-denominational in many respects. We are all becoming "spiritually correct." We are afraid to bring up doctrines and we find we cannot intelligently discuss them. We are unable to open our minds to ponder another view because we are in the laodicean mindset. We have become content to be mediocre, nondescript, indistinguishable, and non-confrontational. And so we just ebb and flow.
This prophecy has been fulfilled...
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
Jesus said the first command was "thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy HEART, and with all thy SOUL, and with all thy MIND."
Yes, not only are we to love the Lord with our heart and soul but also with our MIND. This involves study and comprehension. So if God expects us to comprehend Him through His word and He has given us "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John," then why do we think it cannot be understood or that it is unimportant?
Can anyone explain this to me? Jesus warns us not to receive the mark of the beast because it carries the most awful consequences. Yet many believe that it cannot be understood and thus they fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah I quoted above. Why?
There is a time for baby steps and milk and then there is a time for solid food and running the race. Many of us have been "in The Way" for such a long time we should be weaned from milk and beyond baby steps. We should now be able to teach. Teach what? Sound doctrines, right?
Here's the thing: ALL the things that are "good" about the IC are where it is able to "copy" the real thing -families that care for themselves and their neighbors.
It's the same with public school. In the beginning there was the family. The family taught its children to read, to work, to sing, to pray. Some families failed to do so. Well-meaning people decided to intervene, and make a pseudo-family that would "make" the children learn what the do-gooders thought was important. Gradually, more and more families gave their children over to public school, and the schools usurped the rightful place of the family to raise their children in their own tribal identity. Finally now, "school" is normal and "family training" can get you thrown into jail.
As far as the Kingdom of God, "He sets the lonely in families". To the degree that "church" imitates "real family" it can be better than nothing. But we should never lose sight of the fact that Jesus went to the synagogue to recruit OUT of the synagogue INTO the Kingdom of God. He never said, "my" synagogue our "our" synagogue. He always said, "your" synagogue" and "their" synagogue. He went to it as a place where lost people could be contacted - just like he went into the homes of "publicans and sinners" - not to join them, but to give them a chance to get saved. The synagogue was created out of a time of fear and desperation, when Israel was taken captive and the people were scattered. They needed to help one another, because few intact families were left, and they were a persecuted minority in a strange land. Unfortunately, when God restored them to "The Land" they didn't let go of the Institutional Gathering. The Priests and Doctors of the Law lorded it over the people instead of serving them.
My son looks forward to the day he has the release from God "go to church" to preach the Kingdom of God. Not to stand in the pulpit but to stand in the foyer to shout, "The Kingdom of God is Not in This Church or in That Church, but In Spirit and in Truth!"
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
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I know you are right, and this really helps. The "hope" is fading. NO, I'll call it what it really is. The "delusion" is fading. A bad foundation equals a bad building. Over in "Big Spender" you made the point that doing something all of the time is bad, even if it's the Thanksgiving holiday.
I agree. The thing is, the church thinks they are like The Lord (never changing) but the truth is, God is unlimited in His variety, while the church is so predictable that it's nauseating! Sing. Extort tithe. Sing one more song. Listen to lecture. Have alter call while singing. Feel better because you have done your time. Go home. Ahhhhh....
How terribly sad.
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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Well! Matthew, I thought for a minute Laurie was going to use the magic word we wrote about. Anyway, what I am going to propose on 28th is that we use Alpha express, that's the condensed version 20 to 25 minutes on each sinister topic such as Who is Jesus? Why did Jesus die?How can I be sure of my faith? How and why should I read the bible? How can I resist evil? Does God heal today?(a hard one for me)and some 9 equally horrible subjects. As far as I can tell Nicky and Peppa are real people, just not appearing in person, but thank you for asking.
I just can't seem to be too hard on our old churches. Far as I can see none of us were raised in housechurch, but you all seem to get it anyway. Yes, there must be a better way. God has shown us that much by bringing the old ways to the virge of collapse. I mean no offense, but almost anything would work better.All I can go by is my own experience: on the "Advance"day (I will no longer"retreat")that is devoted to study of the Holy Spirit, (that part of Christlife we least understand, and that includes a lot of confusion!) they ask a question: what are you going to do with the rest of your life? My friends, you have my answer-as for my house we will serve the Lord, anywhere,and everywhere.
I AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE CONVERTS- maybe just spice things up a bit. Rich
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The "magic word we wrote about?" Um.. what is the "Alpha express" and who are Nicky and Peppa? I really think you must be talking to someone else and thinking it was me.
As far as your second paragraph, I don't despise them (yet) but I really think I'm getting there. I guess the more I confronted with Biblical facts, the less delusions I have about traditional church. Tradition of men applied to Jesus in stead of The Law of Moses.
As far as being raised in home church, we had "prayer meeting" in our home for years, and we went to traditional church too. I was to young for it to "matter" that much, but I really like what I see with the children being raised in home church.
As far as offense goes, don't worry. As far as spice goes ...I hope you like Naga Jolokia chili peppers. It can get really hot around here sometimes!
Be blessed you baptist you, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
quote:Originally posted by Rich 1: I just can't seem to be too hard on our old churches. Far as I can see none of us were raised in housechurch,
That's a pretty common sentiment, Rich. But here's the thing: People who serve God for the Long Haul, people who Get It, people who understand the difference between the Kingdom and the Church are almost always people who had an "outside church experience" with believers that made the difference, what might be called a "koininia fellowship". (The other thing that is critical is an early-in-the-walk experience with studying the Old Testament there's more on that discussion elsewhere at the RCC.)
Examples are: People who lived with a Christian family saved who reached out to them. People who got saved in the military and had the Kingdom modeled in the barracks through daily life. People who were led to Christ in the workplace and became part of an accountability relationship there. People who had a mentor relationship with a Christian at a critical time. My own experience was that I appeared to be "saved at VBS" because I walked the aisle, but in fact it was the life I saw in my school teacher (who was also my VBS teacher) and the man that brought me to VBS that made the difference. HIS kids aren't saved! but I, who just passed through his house and saw a difference between my own family and his -- I get it!
Anyone who was raised to think that church is what it is about: well, you can tell by looking at them. They have a dead countenance when you try to talk to them of spiritual things.
This is important: THIS is why most families do not make it to having Christians in the third generation!!!!
People who come to Christ as adults, know for themselves what salvation is about. Their children don't really "Get it" but go to church because they were raised to, and their parents' testimony influences them. Their grandchildren see nothing but dead religion, and quit the minute they can walk out the door for themselves.
I WILL NOT SETTLE FOR THAT! I will feel that I am a total failure as a believer if my grandchildren aren't more knock-down-drag-out-the-Jesus-way-or-death believers than I am.
So, my goal is that they will never darken the door of a church, except to evangelize the saints by telling them to escape while they can!
Not for weddings. Not for funerals. Not for VBS. Not for anything!
I consider a church in the same light as a shrine in Japan. You might meet open people there, but you wouldn't expect them to be saved by going there!
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
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Dear Laurie Ann, I am enjoying my freedom. I have been released from the shame of the traditional churches religiousness (to some degree anyway). I don't yet share your total disdain for the traditional church, so I suspect there is even more freedom! To be honest, I really enjoy seeing your passion!!!
When I was born, my parents were baptist. However, I was born with sever allergies. When we moved to Arkansas as a family, my mom came across Scriptures in The Bible that lead her to believe that The Lord could heal me. She shaired those Scriptures with my dad, and they agreed together, prayed for me, and went to bed.
After more than three hours had passed, my mom (who is an RN with her BSN) became concerned that I had died (I never slept more than three hours, and I was four years old). Dad refused to believe that, and told her not to check on me ...and they went back to sleep. The Lord had healed me.
My mom, being a nurse, decided she should tell everyone. She told my doctor (who said I was in "remission" and that I'd be back). I never saw him again. She told our baptist church (where my dad was a deacon). We received the "left foot of fellowship".
My mom then began to look for like-minded believers. She found just one (at first) from the family we were renting a small house from. They were United Pentecostals (often called UPC). My mom somehow realized that all of the "holiness" was just religion, so she kept looking.
We ended up in an intercity Assemblies of God church, simply because they believed in The Infilling of The Holy Spirit. At the age of 14, I began working with the children in children's church. A few months later, I began working with the five and six year olds (they used to be called Strait Arrows) in Royal Rangers.
This is how I grew up. I was always active in church. I was busy Sunday morning with children's church, Sunday night running the sound booth (as I grew up) and Wednesday night working with boys.
I really liked church, especially the children... and they all liked me. I thought that life was great. Then I went on the mission field. I actually had an encounter with The Lord there that shook my whole religious background. I eventually admitted that I didn't know how to have a relationship with "God" (what I called Him at the time). I looked for Him, and found Him, and He became my Lord, my Life, and my Love.
He taught me how to truly love, and I actually finally got it right. I didn't just like working with the children, I loved them! Then in 1997 The Lord sent me to work with children no one else would. During this time I experienced the Church of Christ, Catholic, Four Square, Nazarene, and Nondenominational churches.
Being in battle for years (until 2003) finally left me needing rest. For the first time in my life, (at the age of 40) I stopped doing ...and just sat in church. I was horrified! My wife was bored! My daughter stayed sick all of the time! I didn't feel like an "overcomer," I felt horrible!
Then I began reading the Interlinear, and I began to see the problem. The problem is the traditional church! NOTE: I have met in one church building that was an (undercover) home church in a building. They had it right!!! They loved me, and I loved them!
I know you are right on (and way ahead of me) in what you have found. I am seeing it more and more. Please keep offending my upbringing, and chipping away (for my sake, if for no one else's) at my churchness. I really want to be totally free, as you seem to be. I understand your frustration (even admire it) but please understand ...you have blessed me greatly, and I'm learning all I can ...so I can be totally free too!
You are a blessing, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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I do hear what you are saying Laurie Ann and Mathew- and I too see you, Laurie Ann, and others here as role models- as I am much newer to all of this as well. And I also see that those who "get it" had some sort of "kingdom" experience- usually connected with the IC or some parachurch organization. I certainly fall into that catagory as well! But to recruit people out of the IC- or rather into true kingdom living- don't we need to stay connected to some degree- say in helping church-goers to find these kingdom experiences? Is this what Rich is attempting to do?
I would say, though, that in doing this we have to be careful of the mindset that it is more effective to bring our message to hundreds than to a few. I have heard a few illustrations on the power of multiplication- and I couldn't repeat them perfectly (not a detail person:)), but one askes a question something like... would you rather have one penny doubled every day for (some certain # of years- I'll say 10 but someone could do some math for me here:)) or a one time gift of 1 million dollars. Well, it turns ou the one penny multiplied is the much better option. Abraham is a good example here in that he never did see Gods promise of becoming a great nation fulfilled- but of course we know what multiplication accomplished there. So, starting the process of multiplying this kingdom mindset in a few is much more powerful in the end (though we may no see it in our lifetimes) than preaching it superficially to many I think.
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Yes, Jeanne, indeed. I'm banking my life energies right now on the Abraham principle: that it is better to truly invest everything in a handful who are totally transformed than to put on events of 1,000 where people jump, shout, and go home to their ordinary lives.
If I had been Abraham, I would have done what he did - try to hurry, try to multiply faster. But his one son who was lain on the altar to teach him what real commitment is has the offspring who are called by his grandson's nickname to this day. That's powerful!
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
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Ah from the mouths of babes!( don't mean to sound sexist) Ever notice how you can never change someone's mind once they made it up? Let's see how can I find a 20th way of saying this: Jesus came for everybody. yes or no? If we are ever to rebuild the ARMY OF HIS KINGDOM.....shall the individual units remain divided against themselves? Put another way, even the first phase for Rick Warren was ahouse(apartment) operation. I know you'll love that example. I guess if there is one thing The American Baptists remember is that each form of freedom has a price to pay.
Some may see demons where I don't. I may see dangers where you don't. So be it. Speculation is needed for us to each chart our own course. Hope we can talk in 5 years and compare experiences. In the mean time, LETS SHARE WHAT WE CAN. Rich
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My mind is easily changed, I just need the facts to change it, that's all.
Jesus did come for all to have life, and life more abundantly.
We can not remain divided against ourselves but we can remain divided! There is no better way to win a war than to assign different tasks to different divisions. Ever heard of a country with only a navy? The "trick" is really simple. The General has to get all of the devisions fighting the same enemy!
I believe there are "healing divisions," "salvation devisions," "holiness divisions,"Holy Spirit divisions," and so on. They all seem to "harp on" only one topic, but the truth is, many do some or all of the other's primary function some of the time ...but they have a primary function as well. Is this not the hand of God?
NOTE: This is just a speculation.
Be blessed. And that's an order soldier! Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
quote:Originally posted by Rich 1: Put another way, even the first phase for Rick Warren was a house(apartment) operation.
Ah, see! The focus for Rick is still the small group. The problem with his model is it seems to not be reproducible in the US. His "Purpose Driven Life" was the #1 hardback bestseller of all time... Churches by the thousands implemented the 40 days of Purpose... and the numbers on nominalism in America have not budged.
Important point: George Barna's research on churches drove a lot of the "church growth" concepts that Warren implemented.
AND GEORGE BARNA HAS QUIT CHURCH!
That may be the single most significant house church conversion in America.
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
Email this page to someone.
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The "hope" is fading. NO, I'll call it what it really is. The "delusion" is fading. A bad foundation equals a bad building. Over in "Big Spender" you made the point that doing something all of the time is bad, even if it's the Thanksgiving holiday.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
but the truth is, God is unlimited in His variety, while the church is so predictable that it's nauseating! Sing. Extort tithe. Sing one more song. Listen to lecture. Have alter call while singing. Feel better because you have done your time. Go home. Ahhhhh....![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
It can get really hot around here sometimes! 
