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The passage below is from a feature article at patriarch.com bearing the name in the subject line above. I suppose it was written by Phil Lancaster, the site manager.
quote: So what about the three families meeting in a living room on Sunday morning? While a family would be far better off in that living room than in a church that has become a synagogue of Satan, that does not make the home meeting a biblical church. This group lacks a plurality of qualified elders to guard doctrine, oversee the sacraments, and exercise church discipline -- and that is a very serious lack indeed. Also, due to its small size, it lacks the rich diversity of spiritual gifts that a church needs to be healthy. Again, far better to be in such an informal group than under wicked elders, but we must not pretend that fathers are church officers or that two or three families gathered constitutes the church of Christ.
We need to be careful here. The family is indeed a building block of the church, fathers do serve a priestly function in their families, and two or three families gathered can truly enjoy the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the reality of true fellowship in Christ. Further, a true church can in fact exist before it has elders in place as is evidenced by Acts 14:23, where Paul and Barnabas returned to churches they had previously organized, and it reports: "So when they had appointed elders in every church..." (cf. Tit. 1:5). There were churches before there were elders. On the other hand, these churches were very much under apostolic authority from their inception, having been planted by an apostle! So they never existed apart from the oversight of God-ordained authority.
We conclude then that the home meeting may indeed be the seed of a new church, but it does not yet constitute a biblical church because God-ordained authority is an essential ingredient of the church, and since the time of the apostles this means the oversight of a plurality of qualified elders. (In an ideal world such small groups would be daughter churches under the oversight of elders from an established congregation, the new group being, in effect, a part of the original church until the new work meets the standards of an apostolic church on its own.
DanG
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What Phil writes establishes one man's understanding and structure. This is where I get in trouble with most people. I have a real tendancy to reject all established ways. I may return to established ways once examined and established in something that is immutable - but outright, I tend to reject men's understanding. Once examined and given proper immutable backing, I can accept the ways men desire to live by, but this way that Phil writes is merely establishing what has been the church way for millenia, period. Are there ever any open thinkers in these matters any more? I am not casting off all organisation or established ways, merely asking if the ways have been thoroughly established in immutable ways - i.e. the Bible. Understanding of the Bible can be "off" for millenia, can't it? Perhaps the way of God has always been, but not in recorded history? Has God's church only been within the confines of what we know as church today and in history? Have there been home meetings throughout millenia of history since Jesus' ascension into heaven? DanG ChicagoArea
I'm glad to see your responses to the original post!
Re. priesthood, as you have noted, it has to do NOT with fathers but with believers, just as baptism has nothing to do with adults but rather with believers! A saved father is priest on the very same level as every other saved member of his family. He is no more a priest than the youngest saved child!
As has also been pointed out, the father's ability to tend and care for his own household (as a shepherd) is one prerequisite for him to be acknowledged as an overseer in a church. (I Tim.3)
Re. recognized elders being a prerequisite to the establishment of a church, I think the inspired record in the Book of Acts dispels this erroneous thinking as well. Paul and Barnabas saw churches established in many places (i.e. Iconium, Lystra, Derbe and Antioch) and left them on their own for extended periods of time with no elders at all! Then they returned and simply pointed out to the saints the men who had proven themselves! There were churches BEFORE there were elders! See Acts 14
Let us continue to test and prove whether the teaching of any man is true to the scriptural standard. (Acts 17:11)
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why does the IC want to see 'church authority' as such a difficult and complicated process (isn't Jesus their authority head)?
c'mon, there only has to be a true relationship with Jesus Christ as a born again believer for a 'fellowship' of the church to be established.
once this relationship with Jesus is intact and He is given His rightful place as the only legitimate "Head" of authority over all of the church, healthy fellowship will develop correct relationships, identify legitimate giftings, and in turn, church ministry will develop.
from these ministry relationships, team leaders will naturally (or supernaturally) fall into their place. it takes time, but time very well spent... this worked well in the beginning and it still works today (again... IF JESUS IS TRULY THE HEAD).
the IC continues to hand off the traditionally developed leadership structure (as if in a baton race?), ignoring the need for a continuously refreshed 'leadership by relationship' structure. Whereas the 'relationship' structure (joyfully) seems to be the only methodology available to the HC... and i hope and pray that our little HC never changes that focus and trust in Jesus and in... 'Christ in us'.
alex
-------------------- ~a good compass is fine, but true north is finite~
It is good to hear from you and to be directed back to the central focus of the church of Jesus Christ which is NOT elders but HIMSELF!
To go back to the original post I would like us to consider a challenge to the common view in many Reformed congregations that is expressed there i.e. that elders are necessary (1) to guard doctrine, (2) to oversee the sacraments, and (3) to exercise church discipline.
(1)Where in scripture do we see that doctrine has to be guarded?? Is it not SHEEP that need to be guarded from wolves who introduce false doctrine? Is not sound doctrine (the Word of God) the sword of the Spirit the weapon that is used in the hand of those who are to guard the sheep??? If elders "guarding doctrine" is not a scriptural idea or principle, where did it come from??
(2)What examples in scripture do we find of elders "overseeing the sacraments"?? BTW I never even find "sacraments" in the Bible!!! What are they? If they are practices that are commanded by the Lord Jesus there are about 50 of them found in the Gospels which He commanded His disciples to observe! If they are physical practices which are given spiritual or symbolic meaning and importance, there are three of them: -baptism of believers in water portraying the death, burial and resurrection of the believer with Christ.(THE DEAD AND THE LIVING.) -the Lord's Supper... partaking of meals and eating and drinking bread and the cup portraying the body and blood of the Lord Jesus that was given for us. (THE BREAD AND THE CUP.) -the demonstration of headship (God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of the man and man is the head of the woman) Honor to the Head is portrayed by the uncovered head of the man and the covered head of the women whenever each is praying or prophesying. Glory is portrayed by the man keeping his hair from growing long and by the woman allowing her hair to grow long. (THE HEAD AND THE HAIR.) Are elders ever assigned the responsibility to "guard" any such practices??? Do we have any examples in scripture of elders guarding such things?? If not where does this idea originate from???
(3)What writer of scripture ever says that church discipline is the responsibility of elders??? Matt.18:15-20 certainly doesn't! Nor does I Cor.5, Gal.6, II Thess.3, I Tim.3, II Tim.2,3,4 , Titus 1 or Titus 3! So where has this idea come from??
Any idea or teaching which is commonly entrenched in religious systems of men which has not originated in the scriptures has been imported by relgious men seeking religious control over the people of God!
Any such control that is usurped from Christ the Head of the church is treason and mutiny which brings the Lord's people into bondage and slavery rather than liberty and freedom!
Am I "out to lunch" or has the writer of the opening post simply parrotted religious notions without searching the scriptures to see whether these things are so (Acts 17:11)??
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I hope I find time to respond to this post in the very near future to address each and every concern raised earlier. The very reason we need a body of believers is to keep balance among us. Sometimes you get a very strong personality which advocates a singular viewpoint with strong conviction. It is at this point that someone needs to stand up and speak out so as to balance the discussion.
While I admit that many church leaders have misguided the body and taken unto themselves purogatives that belong to Christ alone it is not healthy for us to be so strongly weighted with negative opinions and generalizations about all churches or all church leaders.
It is true that Christ is the head of the church. But his desired organization of the church does place faithful men in key positions and he has gifted them accordingly to his calling and purpose for his body. Being that Jesus is the head of the body, even the church, it is his purogative to place men in positions of leadership and authority to carry out his will on earth. In fact, the purpose of these gift is to bring unity among the believers. How can you have unity or build upon unity if you practice and preach disunity and the tearing of all things apart?
For an example of how Christ established the early church follow the link below to the UNITY topic and read the post.
Of course, what constitutes a Biblical church is not the forms of worship but Whom we worship. Yet, while we strive to make ourselves appear in every detail a replica of the early church lets not forget the unity that existed then and which is not man-made (contrived) but comes with the presence of the Holy Spirit. This would be one characteristic, that is generally missing today, that would be a great witness to the world that Christ is indeed our Head, our Master, our Leader, our Savior. The key seems to lie in our attitudes. Attitudes that cannot be submissive one to another as long as we are carnally minded.
So since we are well schooled in disunity it would be well for us to practice unity and submissiveness to each other. And what if we don't agree with our leaders? Doesn't the scripture also say, " Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward." Does this refer to our workplace only? Or, are we to be Christians everyday, everywhere?
I do not disagree at all with what you have written in the previous post or in the other article! Certainly God establishes Godly servant leaders among His people. Sheep need shepherds and God appoints such people in His little flocks.
But that does not at all address the questions I posted earlier!
Where does scripture teach that shepherds among God's people are to "guard doctrine"? "oversee the sacraments"? "exercise church discipline"?
Scripture does teach that they are: -to be as the younger and as he that doth serve Luke 22:26 -to take heed to themselves and to all the flock over the which the Holy Ghost has made them overseers and to feed (i.e. tend as shepherds)the church of God, which he hath purchased with His own blood. Acts 20:28 BTW Shepherds never "feed" sheep! They cannot produce grass or milk! But most "pastors" today are ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED TO FEED (i.e. prepare food and bottle feed or spoon feed) their "flock" because the sheep simply do not know how to feed themselves!!!! The true effectiveness of shepherds is clearly demonstrated by the eating habits of the sheep in their care! -to watch for grievous wolves who would enter in among them not sparing the flock, even to watch out for those among the shepherds who would arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them. Acts 20:29,30 -to labor with their own hands to support the weak and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, "it is more blessed to give than to receive." Acts 20:34,35 -to be recognized by the scriptural qualifications found in I Tim.3:1-7, and Titus 1:6-11. (These qualifications have to do with a man's character, his domestic behaviour and his reputation in the community around. They have nothing to do with "training", "credentials" issued by men or religious organizations, nor do they have to do with lists of abilities! The only ability that is required is the ability to teach.) -to tend the flock of God which is among them, taking the oversight NOT FOR FILTHY LUCRE, BUT OF A READY MIND I Peter 5:2 -NOT to be as lords over God's heritage (God's CLERGY!) but are rather to be examples to the flock. In other words the people of the flock are to DO AS THEY DO (not as they say!) I Peter 5:3
I know many congregations where the unscriptural dogmas that elders are to guard doctrine, oversee the sacraments and exercise church discipline are taught but the scriptural "job descriptions" of elders (noted above) are never mentioned! Are such congregations Biblical churches??? But more importantly ARE MEN WHO ARE CREDENTIALLED BY MAN'S RELIGIOUS SYSTEMS, WHO "GUARD DOCTRINE", "OVERSEE THE SACRAMENTS" AND "EXERCISE CHURCH DISCIPLINE" really elders when they do not meet scriptural qualifications of elders???
quote:Doesn't the scripture also say, " Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward." Does this refer to our workplace only? Or, are we to be Christians everyday, everywhere?
I believe this verse in 1 Peter 2:18 do refer to everywhere except the church. Otherwise 1. it would be redundant for Peter to say the same again in 1 Peter Chapter 5. 2. he was allowing the “froward” type of behaviour at the church – which contradicted to Jesus teachings.
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Bruce... as I write a hurricane is bearing down on me. but I rest in the assurance that Jesus is my protector. amen!
I rarely agree with anyone about anything 100%... but on all points I agree with your rebuttal and confirm that your stand is one of a man who knows the Lord and is lead by His Spirit. No you are not out to lunch and the person who wrote the original article is a very insecure or a seminary indoctrinated person (e.g. by some specific denomination)?
1) Guard doctrine... what poo poo is this? We have a zillion brands of Christianity in the world because of "guarding" doctrine. in effect "guarding" doctrine becomes justification to not fellowship with those other miss-guided Christians (tongue in cheek). What has been so refreshing in our HC is that we have only one point of doctrine... Jesus and him crucified as a gift of Grace for the remission of our sins. All else is worthy topics for prayer and revelation as we begin to truly "assemble together" our gifts as one body.
2) Elders overseeing sacraments… the author fails to understand the simplicity of elder qualifications which was the point of my first post. the IC has turned eldership into an “office”, which requires hierarchal approval of attainment in lieu of real life experiences and a Christ centered life… very simple, if you stick to the Word. And as far as what he means by sacraments… I wouldn’t even try to second-guess the author’s meaning? But I am sure I’d have issues with him once I knew what he was referring to.
3) Church discipline… this is code word for control and legalism. Christians who are drawing close to God have no choice but to be disciplined, the Spirit led person has no other choice… no man (elder or other) can drive that home quite like the real living God, who dwells in you, can. I am sure that God meant it to be that way and is exactly why He tore 'the curtain' in two (from top to bottom)… eh? I say… lets just catch the fish, love on them, and let Jesus clean them up. in our HC this is the only method allowable (thank God!).
my only other comment that might seem to disagree with your post is that... we are all sheep and we all have a shepard (a pastor). i do not equate a 'pastor' as a 'shepard' per Jesus' several teachings on 'sheep/shepherd'. many of those teachings far exceed a pastors authority and are clearly at Jesus' level of authority. however, i am not without a pastor (as the Lord has certainly provided our fellowship with every gift as He promised he would)... and we all submit to the pastoral gift within our church fellowship.
I am teachable. Jesus in Lord... be blessed accordingly, Alex
quote:Originally posted by Bruce Woodford: Alex and Linda,
It is good to hear from you and to be directed back to the central focus of the church of Jesus Christ which is NOT elders but HIMSELF!
To go back to the original post I would like us to consider a challenge to the common view in many Reformed congregations that is expressed there i.e. that elders are necessary (1) to guard doctrine, (2) to oversee the sacraments, and (3) to exercise church discipline.
(1)Where in scripture do we see that doctrine has to be guarded?? Is it not SHEEP that need to be guarded from wolves who introduce false doctrine? Is not sound doctrine (the Word of God) the sword of the Spirit the weapon that is used in the hand of those who are to guard the sheep??? If elders "guarding doctrine" is not a scriptural idea or principle, where did it come from??
(2)What examples in scripture do we find of elders "overseeing the sacraments"?? BTW I never even find "sacraments" in the Bible!!! What are they? If they are practices that are commanded by the Lord Jesus there are about 50 of them found in the Gospels which He commanded His disciples to observe! If they are physical practices which are given spiritual or symbolic meaning and importance, there are three of them: -baptism of believers in water portraying the death, burial and resurrection of the believer with Christ.(THE DEAD AND THE LIVING.) -the Lord's Supper... partaking of meals and eating and drinking bread and the cup portraying the body and blood of the Lord Jesus that was given for us. (THE BREAD AND THE CUP.) -the demonstration of headship (God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of the man and man is the head of the woman) Honor to the Head is portrayed by the uncovered head of the man and the covered head of the women whenever each is praying or prophesying. Glory is portrayed by the man keeping his hair from growing long and by the woman allowing her hair to grow long. (THE HEAD AND THE HAIR.) Are elders ever assigned the responsibility to "guard" any such practices??? Do we have any examples in scripture of elders guarding such things?? If not where does this idea originate from???
(3)What writer of scripture ever says that church discipline is the responsibility of elders??? Matt.18:15-20 certainly doesn't! Nor does I Cor.5, Gal.6, II Thess.3, I Tim.3, II Tim.2,3,4 , Titus 1 or Titus 3! So where has this idea come from??
Any idea or teaching which is commonly entrenched in religious systems of men which has not originated in the scriptures has been imported by relgious men seeking religious control over the people of God!
Any such control that is usurped from Christ the Head of the church is treason and mutiny which brings the Lord's people into bondage and slavery rather than liberty and freedom!
Am I "out to lunch" or has the writer of the opening post simply parrotted religious notions without searching the scriptures to see whether these things are so (Acts 17:11)??
Your brother in Christ, Bruce Woodford
-------------------- ~a good compass is fine, but true north is finite~
AS you are able, please let us know how you fared through the hurricane!
I'm glad to hear that you don't think I'm "out to lunch"! And it's encouraging to hear that others agree with what scripture teaches on this great subject!
Re. "pastors" and "shepherds"...it's interesting to note that in the Hebrew of the OT and the Greek of the NT there is no difference in the words. Strong's Concordance Hebrew word #07462 translates "Shepherd(s)", "pastors)", "herdmen", "feed "or "tend" sheep or herds etc
The Greek word #4166 is translated as "Shepherd(s)" and "pastors". But what is really interesting in the NT is that every time the word is used in the singular it is used of Christ. But whenever it is used in the plural, it always refers to mortal men (i.e. shepherds of smelly sheep in Luke 2 or pastors of smellly Christians in Eph.4!) Not once do we ever read of the word "shepherd" or "pastor" in the NT as designating ONE MAN OVER OR LEADING A CHURCH IN A PARTICULAR PLACE!
True pastors are NOT known by credentials, titles, signs on their office doors, or by personalized license plates on their cars! Pastors ARE shepherds and shepherds spend a lot of time with sheep! The best book I ever read about pastors was called, "They Smell Like Sheep"!
True shepherds are not known for their "pulpiteering", but by their "pasturing"! The former separates them from the sheep, but the latter puts them AMONG the sheep!
One of the sheep in the pasture of the very Best of Shepherds, Bruce
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Power went out about 1 hour after my last post (the 14th) and we did not get power back until 8pm Friday (the 16th)... 50 hours. But that is not uncommon for these parts of NC and we have been without power for nearly 5 days in past hurricanes. Thankfully we have a generator... but after 2 days, I'd like a bigger one (ha!). I am on cable modem and we did not get that back until late Saturday.
ohhh... Ophelia.
We worked in the yard all week-end and tonight and hauled out five 14' trailer loads of debris. We still have a few loads left to go. We were fortunate... not too much damage. We suffered a broken window from a tree limb, and some slight roof damage. Let me tell you, it will scare the (you know what) out of you sitting in your house with 80mph sustained winds outside (with higher gusts) and a tree limb blows out a window in your house... it sounds like a very compact tactical explosion (with glass everywhere)!!!
And of course, Jesus watched over us as always... Amen.
-------------------- ~a good compass is fine, but true north is finite~
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Sorry Bruce, I haven't had the time to answer your question.
You asked... Where does scripture teach that shepherds among God's people are to "guard doctrine"? "oversee the sacraments"? "exercise church discipline"?
Well, I think sacraments are for the Catholic church only so we needed discuss that part of the question. So let's focus on the other two.
Guard Doctrine
Jesus commanded Peter to "Feed the sheep?" Feed them what? Pablum? No, "sound doctrine." How do you keep doctrine sound? You need watchmen to keep an eye out for the wolves.
Isaiah 56:10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
Isaiah 62:6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
Exercise Church Discipline
I think you are saying that one man should not decide but rather it should be the church body who decides if someone should be put out. I agree with that teaching. But honestly, some church members are asleep and wouldn't know if a wolf entered into the fold. Paul experienced this with the church at Corinth as shown in this passage.
"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you."
I guess the point you are making is that there should not be one man over the flock unless that man is Jesus Christ. I agree. The pastors have a purpose but they are not the Lord over the body of Christ.
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