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This is my first post. I am stepping one foot out cautiously because I am sincerely asking for wisdom that can only came through the Body and I am having an increasingly difficult time finding the Body. I know it's out there.
I used to find wisdom from Believers in a local denominational church. That has faded over time until I barely recognize the church anymore. I have become a "church hopper," hoping and praying that the next church I go to will be a healthy believing church.
My question: what is going on? I am doing my best to be obedient to church authority, but my soul is repulsed by much of what I see. I try to sit in the pews, but everything inside me cries against where I hear and see. I don't want to abandon the local church without extensive and careful consideration.
Please don't throw lots of Bible verses at me, rather one or two that I can carefully consider. I am not alone. There are others who are seriously disturbed by what the church looks like today.
I've been a minister in a full-time, paid capacity for over a decade. When our family moved from Oregon to Colorado, we resigned our positions but we didn't feel to "start" another church. We honestly felt that we would find a body that we would be able to blend in with and be a part of. What I discovered is that the few churches we went to were really platform centered, sit and listen, and go along with the current plan oriented. I felt they honored the denominational headquarters as much or more than the Word, and Jesus Christ. I couldn't just sit there and "go along".
I personally believe that most of modern "Christianity" resembles the pharisee system of Jesus' day. And when God's people, place great emphasis on the system, organization or denomination, then we are serving the creation more than the Creator.
There is a place for all of us in the Body of Christ. Many of us here throughout the forums have sought God on where we are to be. I'm reminded of the men that followed David before he was set as king of Israel. They weren't the elite - they were the discontented, outcasts and indebt. It's possible you are part of the discontent who are in the heart-felt search of your King. Don't be dismayed! If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all me librally and upbraideth not! We will find Him when we search for Him with all our hearts. Finally, He will not leave you comfortless, He will come to you! I will join with you in prayer for you to know the plans that He has for you!
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Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
I come to realize that Babylon the Great is not Roman Catholics, but the instituted church as a whole - who is marked by compromises made with the world.
The faithfuls are scattered and walking a lonesome road and the only comfort is His Word.
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Thank you both for your wisdom and encouragement. I recognize the truth of what you both say. I guess I am afraid to act on what my heart knows (hence the name Piglet). Other people who I accept as believers have chosen to stick it out. When I think/pray about this, deep in my heart I hear "You, follow Me." I can see nothing in front of me, though and, realistically may not for a time. Thank you for your prayers - it is a lonesome road.
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Abram didn't know what he would be heading when the Lord commanded him to leave the comfort zone. Those you know chose to stick it out. Those we came out with chose to go back -either to IC or to the world. Our group of more than 20 is reduced to 6 and shrinking. Count the cost. I'm not going to ask you to seek His will first like I used to ask the others who were in the same situation. The sooner one leaves the better - before getting brain-washed by the corrupted system. In quietness read His Word and ask the Holy Spirit to guide - He Himself, not through someone in the pulpit, Sunday school nor seminary, will lead you to the truth and the truth will set you free. Sounds scary. It is.
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Hi Piglet, greetings to you and may the God Who Really Is lead you to like-minded souls. Sometimes, things will break whenever circumstances seem to be the darkest. All of us can pray for you, friend.
Don't look for something perfect on this earth - He already came and went.
Here's where it gets difficult for me. Folks keep telling me that we - those outside of traditional Christianity - aren't actually in the minority anymore.
I also have problems with the phrase "insititutional church." Technically, churches without clergy and the other trappings of man, are the true institutional church as instituted or ordered by Christ and the apostles.
I also have trouble making the distinction which chubenna does above because the non-institutional church is also marked by extensive "compromises with the world." A recent example of compromise on a large scale? Yes, just give me a day or two...
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I am reading and re-reading the replies. I am grateful you take the time to help me think this through. My main concern is . . . can I keep the integrity of holiness in my life if I am walking solo or in a small band of believers? I am not proficient in Greek or Hebrew. I am not a scholar. I love the Lord with everything that I know that I am, but is that enough? I read, I pray, I listen, but is that enough?
The best I can offer is a deep heart's desire to be obedient and as I said, I am increasingly unable to be still in the church. However, I don't want to get off into the brambles and become a shooting target from the enemy.
Did you struggle with this? If so, when did your turning points come? Do you have to be more diligent to avoid becoming apathetic toward your devotions? Iron sharpens iron - without the accountability to the church is there a tendency to become dull? I know this seems to be a lot of questions, but this is not an easy decision for me. I don't want to become gnostic in my thinking and say to myself that I know better than pastors or elders or deacons who have been appointed to their positions by God.
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Piglet, thank God for your concerns! I made an interesting discovery in Bible School: it's one of the easiest places to backslide! Why? Just because you're surrounded by programs and studies doesn't mean it's getting INTO you! How easy it is to "go through the motions" of church, performing out of duty rather than devotion. If I were a betting man, I'll bet your daily prayer life has gotten deeper and you're more attentive to the Word since you left the organization then while you were involved. True? Mine has. I've been taking my DAILY relationship more seriously, placing more value on it than on the once-a-week gathering.
This last Sunday, our family - all three of us, met together as a church again in our house. We prayed together, sang together, read the word together, shared the Lord's supper together. No it's not perfect, but were the services of the past perfect? Hardly. But we deliberately gathered together in the name of the Lord as a family, as a church. And yes the Lord was present!
Piglet, if you are walking more circumspectly right now, then a short time ago, isn't that an indication that you're walking closer to Him? If you're digging into the Word more now, to know the way and making sure you're walking in it, isn't that a good thing?
Salvation isn't a trophy obtained; it's The Way we walk in. He that endures to the end shall be saved not the one who obeys for a day/week/or the whole month. This journey we are on is difficult (and won't be getting easier). In patience posses ye your soul. Run this race with patience...all..the..way.. to..the..end. And if you have to run it alone for a time...run it alone. Paul had to do it in prison. Out of everyone who left Egypt for the promise land, only two (2) actually made it (Joshua and Caleb). Of all the Isarelite captives, only three (3) wouldn't bow to the idol statue and of course were miraculously saved from the burning furnace! And Daniel, to his own peril, kept on praying (alone) to his God three times a day like before it was against the law to do so. Narrow is this way, Piglet, and few there be that find it. Be the FEW!
If you find our responses encouraging, then you should also know that you are encouraging to us! You/we are not alone. The web isn't perfect fellowship but if it's all you've got use it to its full advantage! Epistles in the early church were very powerful. Keep writing!
It's a little tough for me to relate to the problems you are seeing in the churches with Pastors lording over the laymen and greed and all the things you've talked about. I attend what you would call an IC but while I know the temptations are there it just hasn't taken hold in my church.
But still I haven't heard any sound Biblical reasons to leave a church simply because it aint HC. If this thing is supposed to be organic then why all the synthetic fertilizer?
There is one source of truth and we should be looking to Him for all our needs. It is knowledge of Jesus that will convert the soul. It is by his grace we have been given these precious promises that we may be partakers of His nature while ours dies daily. (2 Peter 1). If there is any power in the gospel of Jesus then preach that rather than talking about all the negativism you see in the churches. The kind of "good news" you are preaching is nothing but human works. We are not saved by our works so there is nothing for us to boast about. So stop it!
Piglet, do you live to please men or God? Do you answer to men or God? If God then seek His will and give no consideration at all to what men may say or how they may attempt to manipulate your reasoning and conscience. Do what the Word of God tells you to do. If you cannot in good conscience remain where you are at then it may be time to separate. But don't do it because someone told you that you must! Do it because you would rather die than compromise your relationship with Jesus. Any other reason is not of faith but is of works and will profit you nothing.
You said you were timid. Now is the time to be strong. Lean on Jesus with all your weight. You cannot let the conscience of someone else be your conscience. Search for the truth in God's word and dare to stand by it. Don't let others live your life vicariously. They have their reasons and must answer for themselves. You must answer for yourself. Make sure your reasons are based on your love for Jesus who is Truth.
If you still want a body of believers to assemble with then ask God to lead you to His body. But if you aren't willing to listen then don't ask. It's mockery to pretend with God. But if you ask in truth and are willing to go where He leads then do ask and watch for His reply. Compare what you find to scripture for many false spirits have gone out into the world. Don't accept a substitute. The devil knows you are looking as well. So beware!
If God is your Father then ask as a child. He will NOT fail you if you truly want to know the truth. Seek with ALL your heart!! For many do not cultivate a love for the truth and God has prepared for them strong delusions that they should believe a lie.
At this time in your experience I think it would be wise for you to seek God's will apart from men's advice. Maybe you need a period of fasting and prayer with your spouse to seek God's will.
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The church is to allow and encourage participation of ALL the saints as they exercise their unique gifts for the good of the whole body. A church marked by the ministry of a single person, by any name or description, is unknown to the scriptures. I am sure.
Having said that, I am still a brother to every other brother and sister in Christ in every place. Where Christians meet, all other Christians should be welcome.
Jeff, I love you in Jesus, our mutual friend in high places.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 Cor. 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
quote:It's a little tough for me to relate to the problems you are seeing in the churches with Pastors lording over the laymen and greed and all the things you've talked about. I attend what you would call an IC but while I know the temptations are there it just hasn't taken hold in my church.
Jeff, maybe if you ask your preacher or church about things you have learned from your own study that disagrees with what they have taught, you would see what happens. Surely they are not 100% right for no one is.
quote:There is one source of truth and we should be looking to Him for all our needs. It is knowledge of Jesus that will convert the soul. It is by his grace we have been given these precious promises that we may be partakers of His natures while ours dies daily. (2 Peter 1).
Amen!
quote:If there is any power in the gospel of Jesus then preach that rather than talking about all the negativism you see in the churches. The kind of "good news" you are preaching is nothing but human works. We are not saved by our works so there is nothing for us to boast about. So stop it!
I agree, we should not focus on the hurt we have seen. However, especially those who have just been hurt and come out, they need a place to vent the pain. It helps to know of others who have been through the same type of thing. You can’t understand until you have experienced it for yourself.
Coming out is not a work. It is a command. Come out from the world, including false “Christian” religions. Come out of Babylon, read as false religion. So to speak of coming out of the system is not boasting but rather exhortation to claim the victory in Christ who has freed the captives.
IMO, Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
quote:The church is to allow and encourage participation of ALL the saints as they exercise their unique gifts for the good of the whole body. A church marked by the ministry of a single person, by any name or description, is unknown to the scriptures. I am sure.
Amen! I have yet to see a IC that allows each person to participate. Those few who do have to get the approval of the preacher and have it all planned and written out as to what to say and do. What happened to the prompting of the spirit? The clergy/layperson system is based on the RC system, not on the Bible.
Christ taught us to worship in spirit and truth not at a certain place or in a certain ceremonial way. The only place I have found it possible to be free to worship in spirit and truth is in Christ: at home, at town, on a mountain, in a valley; but never in a church building. They have too many customs, rules and doctrines of men and devils!
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
You and I both know which faith I am associated with but I do not mention it here because I want people to find truth for themselves. With regard to that you had written:
quote: Jeff, maybe if you ask your preacher or church about things you have learned from your own study that disagrees with what they have taught, you would see what happens. Surely they are not 100% right for no one is.
To which I reply: It is my fortune to associate with like-minded individuals. Sure, there has to be some disagreement among a large group of individuals. But we focus more on what unites us than what divides us. I did not find my church and then adopt their beliefs. I studied scripture and found a church that I believe hold more firmly to the scriptures than any other church or body of believers the world over.
If I was looking for "the true church" then I would have joined the Catholics for they believe that you are saved by your association with the church. And, it is for this very reason that I want this cafe to shun anything which appears to promote a similar sentiment about home churching. I don't want anyone to intimate that by home churching we consider ourselves above all other believers. Nor do I want us to put on pious airs and portray ourselves as though we esteem ourselves better than others.
It may appear at times that I am the enemy of HC. But as David can attest I have been with you for many, many years. Even before 2000. I realize there are problems in the churches and I empathize with those seeking something better. I wish for them to leave those churches if simply to get away from the indoctrination of falsehoods which can be very hard to overcome at a later time. But I would never want to make that choice for them and speak to them in place of God.
The message will be heard to "come out". It has been prophesied. Yet, simply telling people to "come out" is not much of a faith issue but more of a works issue. If we have the truth then it will expose the falsehoods and the Holy Spirit will convict people to come out. But we must be careful how we present the truth we have.
And, we must not sit idle and be content with what we currently hold as truth. We must always be progressing. If we sit idle we do two things: first, we smugly say we are in need of nothing, and second, the Lord will move on and we will not follow. It is then that we stagnate and become foul even in the Lord's nostrils.
Now there are many "good" churches full of good people but there is one test which divides those who have the Light from those walking in darkness.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
If they teach contrary to the word of God then they truly have no light in them.
Someone in this cafe has said that the entire IC world is Babylon. I am inclinded to agree. If the universal church is the Mother of Harlots then the daughter churches are truly the harlots. Any church which is unfaithful to Jesus, the Word of God, is unfaithful in her marriage vows, is therefore an harlot.
Now, for those of us called out of these daughter churches by an acute sense of the Truth of Jesus, there is an obligation imposed upon us to reinvestigate the doctrines we brought out of those churches and to freely dispose of them when they disagree with the Word. Otherwise, if we come out and still cling to their teachings have we really come out? Have we really left them?
Is it locality that unites us or is it spirit and truth? Must we be in close proximity to one another to comprise the body of Christ or are we all one in spirit and truth? Does scripture say, there is one baptism, one spirit, one house church? No, we are one by virtue of like faith. Therefore, even if you left the presence of the IC to meet in houses yet you cling to their doctrines then you are still part and parcel with them in their faith--a faith you profess to denounce.
Now my faith differs from the typical IC. And, it is for this very reason that there is such a stir when I post. Because the majority of folks here come from similar backgrounds their is a kindred fellowship in former doctrines. I bring something new. A way to be free of those former teachings. All I ask is that you study things in a new light to see whether or not those things are true. Don't go to the scripture to prove your faith is right, but go asking God to teach you afresh. Open your heart to hear new things and be cleansed of the old doctrines you learned while in the IC. Yes, it's difficult. But that is true humility.
Who was it that said the way was narrow and few find it? Well, look at your beliefs and see if they are in the majority. Maybe it's time to study again?
Sure, all churches make mistakes because they are filled with men who tend to err. But let's focus on Christ as the Head and consider that when men error God will correct them. The reason so many erring humans remain in high positions is that they are not in God's churches. Else, God would clear the clutter.
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Jeff, Great that you are with likeminded folks if they are like minded to Christ.
quote:And, it is for this very reason that I want this cafe to shun anything which appears to promote a similar sentiment about home churching. I don't want anyone to intimate that by home churching we consider ourselves above all other believers. Nor do I want us to put on pious airs and portray ourselves as though we esteem ourselves better than others.
I’m not sure why you said this. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone implying one must be home churched to be saved. HC is often harder because of the diversity of backgrounds and the baggage each carries. I think there will be saved people in both hc and ic; but they are saved in spite of being in either. I do wonder why those in IC stay. How can they continue to put themselves under men if they are under Christ as head?
quote:If I was looking for "the true church" then I would have joined the Catholics for they believe that you are saved by your association with the church.
That’s odd reasoning to me. BTW, there are many churches out there who think they are the only one and scare folks into staying there.
quote:It may appear at times that I am the enemy of HC.
Sometimes I wonder why you still go to church or at least hold to their doctrine; but I consider you a friend in Christ. We just don’t agree on all things in this life.
quote:But I would never want to make that choice for them and speak to them in place of God.
I must have missed something in this conversation. Why would you say that? Who has done that at this café? It seems to me that this is just what the preachers in the ic’s do. This is one of the big reasons folks come out to hc: they see Christ is their mediator not some guy behind a pulpit.
quote:Yet, simply telling people to "come out" is not much of a faith issue but more of a works issue.
How so? It takes a lot of faith to leave the herd and walk alone with God into the unknown.
quote:If we have the truth then it will expose the falsehoods and the Holy Spirit will convict people to come out. But we must be careful how we present the truth we have.
True. We are only human and don’t always express what we should. Today I had the opportunity to witness to the JW, but didn’t have the physical strength to deal with them. The entire week has been rough and I was dead tired and didn’t feel like talking. I was so sleepy, I gave them the brush off. Alas, like Paul I didn’t do what I should ;but did what I shouldn’t.
quote:And, we must not sit idle and be content with what we currently hold as truth. We must always be progressing.
True. I have found I could not do that in an IC for their doctrines are set in cement. Also I have found that I have times of growing and progressing and times of little growth. Very similar to a child who grows a foot in a couple of months and then levels out for a year until the next spurt of growth.
quote:Now, for those of us called out of these daughter churches by an acute sense of the Truth of Jesus, there is an obligation imposed upon us to reinvestigate the doctrines we brought out of those churches and to freely dispose of them when they disagree with the Word. Otherwise, if we come out and still cling to their teachings have we really come out? Have we really left them?
True. Also the reason there is much disagreement with in the hc community. Each has their own doctrines like little denominations.
quote:Open your heart to hear new things and be cleansed of the old doctrines you learned while in the IC. Yes, it's difficult. But that is true humility.
Amen.
quote:Who was it that said the way was narrow and few find it? Well, look at your beliefs and see if they are in the majority. Maybe it's time to study again?j
God did in the scriptures! We should all continue to study and seek the Lord’s ways for we all see dimly through a dark glass now. However, the way is not our having all correct doctrine ; but Jesus and the gospel. That seems simple enough. However, men add too many false doctrines to create a different Jesus and a different gospel.
quote:The reason so many erring humans remain in high positions is that they are not in God's churches. Else, God would clear the clutter.
I think we should get our eyes off the worldy high positions and cluttered kingdoms and get focused on our King and his heavenly kingdom.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
quote:I also have trouble making the distinction which chubenna does above because the non-institutional church is also marked by extensive "compromises with the world." A recent example of compromise on a large scale? Yes, just give me a day or two...
It won't be easy, for non-ICs are so scattered and diversified that one just couldn't find the core. I see a lot of bitterness in OOCers, including myself, but "compromises with the world"? I don't know...
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Just a thought here...In looking at the exchange above, I'm not exactly sure where everyone is going. Piglet is seeking out where she is supposed to be in Christ. If the Lord is leading her away from where she's been, great! If He's leading her to stay, great! In either case she is the one who must do so with fear and trembling (just like the rest of us). It sounds like she has made a choice to follow the Word and the Spirit as best she can. I think we all applaud her for that.
Piglet, stay the course you have been set on. Sometimes we learn to hear His voice most clearly when it's the only one we hear. His Spirit will never go against His Word - Never! That's how we can know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
quote:Piglet, stay the course you have been set on. Sometimes we learn to hear His voice most clearly when it's the only one we hear. His Spirit will never go against His Word - Never! That's how we can know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Amen. He is the one to listen to.
Sorry everyone, I do think the topic got off the track. I think Jeff’s comment is the heart of this sidetrack.
quote:But still I haven't heard any sound Biblical reasons to leave a church simply because it aint HC. If this thing is supposed to be organic then why all the synthetic fertilizer?
Maybe we should have a new topic. However, Jeff, have you studied the church in scriptures and noted how many times the church met in homes, houses, etc. versus the times they went to church? Remember the times of teaching or preaching before large groups in open fields or even at the temples were not gatherings of the church, but rather witnessing to the masses of unbelievers. Isn’t there a topic here covering this subject already? Or am I thinking of another site?
Jeff, can you give Biblical reasons to go to a church versus being the church? Also a new topic.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Hi Piglet I want to let you know that you may feel alone BUT YOU ARE NOT ALONE. My husband and I have left the IC after being in it for over 30 years. We love the Lord with all of our hearts. IT IS TOUGH but I want to encourage you that God loves you and He sees, knows and cares about where you are. Please my fellow believer, keep seeking the God you love. You asked in one post if loving the Lord is enough. Yes it is. His Spirit will lead you and guide you into all truth. I have written a book which will be published in November. It is entitled: Bewitched in the Local Church...The Responsibility of the Believer. One thought that I live my life by is this: One day I, ALONE will have to stand before God and give an account for all thatI have said and done in MY body. There will be no place for excuses, blaming the pastors, the apostles, the IC, the HC, etc. I won't have to answer for what someone else has or has not done. I live my life so that when I close my eyes on this side, I will see my Father's face in peace. There are some who don't agree that we have decided to fellowship with a HC (who cares). We have some very close friends, whom are brothers and sisters in Christ who attend church buildings. I say may God bless us all. We are all on a journey. NO ONE IS PERFECT, NO ONE GROUP HAS IT RIGHT. Because of the Cross, C. Lynn
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Piglet. Thank you for sharing a little about yourself. You are not alone!! God is calling out His people to Himself and not to an organization or religious club. Keep on listening to His voice and take heed. We are very lonely also but I know that there are many who have not bowed down to.... I am encouraged to see so many of God's lively stones being fit and framed together. Maranatha! SEMPER FIDELIS! ben \o/
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Thanks for helping me think this out. I guess I really know what I need to do - this decision is solo and I just don't want to make the mistake of not seeking godly advice.
What I appreciate most about these replies is the Christian concern - that is sometimes missing with all the busy-ness of an IC. And the freedom to walk a different path and still be ok.
I also have to laugh at myself because every sentence I start to post begins with "I am afraid . . ." My backspace button is getting a workout!
Email this page to someone.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
However, Jeff, have you studied the church in scriptures and noted how many times the church met in homes, houses, etc. versus the times they went to church? Remember the times of teaching or preaching before large groups in open fields or even at the temples were not gatherings of the church, but rather witnessing to the masses of unbelievers. Isn’t there a topic here covering this subject already? Or am I thinking of another site? 
