quote:And that is what this movement is full of: High-sounding talk. You see it in Barna's book "Revolution". You hear it everywhere you go in the 'Out-of-church' movement. Vast claims are being made for those who will simply "come out" - and actually "BE the church without having to GO to church", etc. One would think that "coming out" was the solution to all that ails us. But as I have seen for 20 years now, nothing could be further from the truth.
The facts are plain and simple: If your thinking and behaviour are basically "anti-Body" and "anti-Leader", then don't expect to get anywhere. And don't expect the Body of Christ to get anywhere either. We are not designed to be an "amorphous blob". We are designed to be a unified army with leaders and direction and teamwork - taking the kingdom of darkness using "combined force". United together we are very powerful - for God designed us to be a 'Body'. Split apart into "individualists", we are weak and ineffective...
In closing, I need to say this: Because I can no longer condone the 'Out-of-church' Revolution that I have endorsed for many years, I needed to take my e-book "The OUT-OF-CHURCH Christians" off the main page of our website - http://www.revivalschool.com. This has now been done.
Link:http://65.108.220.179/leavingbehind.html
So says Andrew Strom at the above mentioned and popular website. Some of his points are indeed valid - others not very. Scripture, in fact, does warn us of the modern manifestation of what are known as "church leaders." Not all, of course.
posted
D - Thanks for posting this. I think it's revealing.
Anti-Body: A person who doesn't want encouraging fellowship is the rare exception rather than rule, I think. I belive we all want edifying interaction with the body of Christ. But it sounds like the concerning issues are: WHO'S IN CHARGE (by what authority), HOW MANY, and HOW we assemble.
WHO'S IN CHARGE: Here's an interesting O.T. story about leadership. God chose Moses to lead His people out of Egypt. Then God directed Moses to anoint Joshua to lead the people into the promised land. Who did God tell Joshua to anoint after him? No one. But you'll find that in the days of Joshua, and the ELDERS that outlived Joshua, Israel served God. I think one of the most broken, misunderstood areas of the American church today is that of Elders and Eldership.
HOW MANY: Didn't Jesus say something like, "Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them? I can't seem to find a certian Biblical number that qualifies a church. Can one edify another? You'd think so since many were sent out 2 by 2. On the other side of the picture, how often do some people gather with a hundred others, and two hours later leave that gathering as empty as when they arrived? Often, folks. Often. A lot of us have been there and done that.
HOW: Can we assemble together in a temple or from house to house? The apostles seem to think so. Can the word be preached from a grassy hilltop? Jesus thought it could be. Now let's really push the bounds here, has anyone ever received a word from God from a brother over the phone? Has a sister ever shared encouagement by email? Has one sharpened another's countenance while talking in a car? If the Bible doesn't stipulate that churches MUST meet in a certain place or time, then why do we make such repuirements? We shouldn't be adding to or taking away from the word.
Assembling together is a requirement - no doubt about it. But the how, where, when, and how many (over one other) is up to us. Stable elders should be taking the oversight (not as lords, but) like older brothers and sisters helping the younger to become stable elders themselves. Church then, more closely resembles a family. And a family is a family at home, in a car, the store, a park or on vacation.
posted
An important point to remember is that we each account to God individually now and at judgement day.
Pat says: "If the Bible doesn't stipulate that churches MUST meet in a certain place or time, then why do we make such repuirements?"
Paul does point out to the first day of the week. But I dont think that it makes a difference, as long as we do not reject the assembling. Sadly, many do not make the difference between assmbling and congregating. The example I use for this is that of a car or an airplane model. If you rattle the box, all the peices are congregated but they are not assempled yet. Only once they are inter-dependent to hold and to be the model together will the "assembling" be completed. This inter-dependency is where I have yet to see the truth of any assembled congregation, apart from strong families who make it from the spiritual division of our DNA to the organic experitence of spiritual unity of God's glory in our midst.
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
posted
I saw explained once that the word "assemble" used in regard to God's people was the same "assemble" used in the riot in Ephesus. If we used church buildings the way the Romans used Mars Hill, the way the Jews used the Temple, Spaniards use their piazzas, or the way the synagogues used to be (I guess that they used to be open all the time, and men would gather to discuss the Torah with whoever else happened to have a few minutes to snatch at what they considered the most important duty of a Jew) things would be very different. How did church buildings come to be empty mausoleums instead of active gathering places?
I'm saddened to see the number of misunderstandings and misrepresentations contained in Strom's words.
My goodness! Has he listened to the self-congratulatory nonsense, blanket condemnations, and empty promises emitting from most pulpits every Sunday?
As I have told so many, "Doing house church, we may not do any better than what the Institutional Church is doing. But I'm giving my life for the hope that we can't do much worse!"
Blessings to you, Glory to him, Servanthood to me,
Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
quote:The example I use for this is that of a car or an airplane model. If you rattle the box, all the peices are congregated but they are not assempled yet. Only once they are inter-dependent to hold and to be the model together will the "assembling" be completed.
I had never thought of it in this way but it is a very apt picture of typical church--though the imagery was first planted in my mind by Christ who talked about unity in terms of being "one", and Paul who talked about the church being knit together.
I do take exception to your remark about the day of worship not mattering. I think God has been very specific here regarding the day he blessed. But, perhaps it matters not what day we worship on until we get the "assembling" part right.
(Arghh! What did I just say? How can we perfect the assembling together if we are not first obedient to Christ who is the head? There has to be our willing submission to God's perfect will if we are ever going to achieve the unity Christ prayed for. Otherwise, there is no radical conversion--as depicted by being "born again"--but rather a gradual improvement of self which is nothing less than putting new wine in old wineskins or patching an old garment with new material. I realize that merely the keeping of a particular day does not guarantee success. But certainly going against God's expressed will won't achieve it either--maybe ostensibly but not in fact.)
Andrew Strom does make some valid arguments. However, what I said in the foregoing paragraph still applies. Seems our revival is too focused on us improving ourselves rather than submission to God's perfect will to be obedient on all fronts--body, mind, spirit. Since God is the Creator then to keep his commandments involves personal hygiene and a temperate lifestyle. Since we are made in his image we cannot keep his commandments if we do not keep our minds from wandering to forbidden subjects which are not true, honest, pure, lovely, virtuous, and of good report. And, without a sound body one cannot have a sound mind and with a demented mind it is difficult, if not impossible, to appreciate the Truth (try reasoning with someone out of their right mind).
There is a lot involved here but it starts with our willing submission to let Christ be our Master, to willingly and lovingly obey his every command, and to learn to live within the confines of his love and blessings. And this cannot occur unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood by the receiving and assimilating of his word so that it becomes a part of our life. Even our faith comes by hearing God's word speaking to us personally and making it part of our life.
It should be a well established fact of our faith that our assemblies can have no profitability without Christ at the head. Hopefully, Mr. Strom realizes this basic Christian principle.
quote:Originally posted by jqlogan: I do take exception to your remark about the day of worship not mattering. I think God has been very specific here regarding the day he blessed. But, perhaps it matters not what day we worship on until we get the "assembling" part right... ...There has to be our willing submission to God's perfect will if we are ever going to achieve the unity Christ prayed for.
The point that I failed to make regarding the day of worship is that in the New-Testament, the Temple of God is our body. Therefore the Sabbath is at all time(s) and places, as long as the worship goes on in truth and in spirit. Gathering for the sake of assembling was once that the Church were "persevering daily in the teaching of the apostles, in fellowship, in the breaking of bread and in prayers" and the people who were being added to the Church by God daily, answered the inner calling by spontaniously selling all that they possesed so that they could have their entire lives translated from out of darkness and into the Kingdom of God's beloved Son. The context grew into the heavenly State in which no one claimed any possession to be their own, because God clearly had clear title upon all matters of being and living.
The word I wish to address in the second sentence being quoted above is "achieve" put in context with unity. The best way to adress this is by aking:
"How do we manifacture God's glory, since unity of the Church comes from God giving us His glory in answer to Jesus's prayer in Jn 17?"
To "achieve" means "to produce results out of our own effort", unity being the results we wish for.
So what I mean to say is that unity cannot be "achieved"; it can only be given by God to each one and received personally and maintained amongst us by the bond of peace, which comes from the justice offered by the Risen Christ-Jesus of God; righthouesnous which produces the peace needed for the bond of unity and from such peace comes the joy of God within each one's inner most being by the Spirit; This is called the Kingdom of God:
"Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men." Rm 14, 16-18
"I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ep 3,1-6
The best teaching that I've come across to find release from the tyranny of performance and achievement came from "Watchman Nee's Sit, walk and stand". He sheds the light upon the epistle to the Ephesians. He demonstrate how becoming a child of God begins with God sitting us together in Christ-Jesus in the heavenly places.
"God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Ep 2, 4-10
"Sit" is our position given by God, "walk" is our conduct and "stand" is our place in the Church's movement through time against the gates of hades and in the conflict versus the flesh, the world and satan.
The genuine "having been seated together in the heavenly places" is where unity is rooted. Any two or three of God's children who are gathered in the awareness of such reality, are where God is found and where the fulness of Christ is as present to manifest the divine nature, as when Jesus walked in our midst.
As I was looking in my New American Standard concordance for the quotes I just pasted above, I was, I am and will be flabergasted by the fact that unity is only used once in the Old Testament and only four times in the New!!!???...
I look forward to sit by the Lord's feet in my closet and to find out from Him, His version of why that is so???... I can already sense the pillars of His spiritual architecture taking shape upon my imagination screen, closed to self-production and fantasy, so as to remain wide open to receive the perpetual revelation from our Eternal Husband to be, feeding myself with all of His leading words and affection until we physically meet at His return... Unity, holiness, true fellowship of God's glory are rooted in the constant sacrifice of worship, thanksgiving and praise, which we are given to share in and to use so that we keep one another healthy in making sure that none of us lacks grace from the Lord.
"Dear Lord, bring us all to learn how to rest upon God's work of glory in our life, where You have seated us together, so that we may shine forth individually and communally here and now as You mean Your Church and individual children to be...amen to Your YES in us all..."
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
You stated "To 'achieve' means 'to produce results out of our own effort', unity being the results we wish for." That is certainly perhaps the primary definition. However, consider this statement and tell me if it is valid English: "They planned to fail and so achieved their goal by doing absolutely nothing." There certainly is no effort involved here. Or is there?
Which is true?
1) "They" had a choice but they did not exercise it or 2) "They" had a choice and they did exercise it
Well, frankly, both. We also have a choice by virtue of the free moral agency that God graciously bestowed upon us. If our goal is to be lost we can achieve that goal simply by doing nothing. If our goal is to be saved we can achieve our goal by receiving Jesus Christ into our life. We make choices every day either for or against Christ.
But how do we recieve Christ? Is there human action required or are some forced to recieve him? Since God created us with free moral agency (the freedom to choose) I believe our part has to do with the will. We can't become Christians by our own efforts, but we can choose to be Christians.
When we intelligently comprehend and appreciate the character of God and subsequently choose to serve him and we set our will to obey--regardless of our ability to follow through on it--then God gives us the desire of our hearts which is Christ. Then we recieve the power to become children of God. God will not give the power of the Holy Spirit to the disobedient. Acts 5:32.
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When you say Jeff; "I believe our part has to do with the will." I've been living with the understanding that Romans chapters 7 and 8 are a description of how defeated the will is: "Oh wretched man that I am", cries out Paul at the end of chapter 7, "who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" No matter how much I make up my mind to obey, this body of death manages to defeat my will powered obediance and its fruit.
And then, he also specifies to the Philipians: "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Ph 2, 12-13
"Be transformed by the renewing of your mind". My will is what I use to make up my mind and that is what I am being set free from by the Holy Spirit's renewal of my mind so that I may discern the will of God, that which is good, perfect and agreeable.
You also wrote: "We can't become Christians by our own efforts, but we can choose to be Christians."
Jesus is quite clear on that: "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another. Jn15, 16-17
You wrote: "But how do we recieve Christ? Is there human action required or are some forced to recieve him?"
Paul answers with a quote from Ishia: "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me."Rm 10,20
You end with: "God will not give the power of the Holy Spirit to the disobedient."
The Holy Spirit is given to us to empower us with the obediance of Christ-Jesus, the son of man who became High Priest forever and can sempatize with all of our sufferings becomes He's been through it all by taking on the last Adam, absorbing during His life time on earth, all of humananity's fallen condition and experience.
Obediance to God is the supply of the Holy Spirit Who sets us free from our will power. That is why Paul uses terms like prisoner and slave of the Lord. He says: "yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship. What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel." 1Cor 9, 16-18
Choosing begins with God's will, not ours. Once we've tasted of His will, the choice becomes a no-brainer as it is said in English since He supplies the empowerment of His pleasure in us.
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
You make it sound as if God forces us to serve and love him. If God is love then doesn't that require that he invites us to love him and allows us to choose to serve him? "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2 Cor 3:17) Why the demonstration of his love to humanity if we have no choice? (Romans 5:8, John 3:16). Isn't our love reciprocal? (1 John 4:19). Isn't it the expression of His love for us, in giving himself for our sins, that draws us to him and compels us to please him? (2 Cor 5:14).
The Holy Spirit also directed Paul to write the following which clearly speaks of choice.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
While we cannot of our own power keep our promises and our will is weak (Romans 5 & 7) we still have the power to choose. We choose to receive him or reject him (John 1:11-12). What you seem to be talking about in your post is the drawing to God. But once drawn we are faced with a decision. Do we accept (receive) Him or reject Him? Admittedly, his pure love is an almost irresistible force. Yet, since not everyone receives him we know some will resist even that nearly irresistible drawing power of God's love.
The verses found in Phil 2:12-13 are talking about God working in a person who has yielded their will to his. It cannot be talking about God forcing his will upon someone. Since God is love and love involves freedom to choose then wouldn't it be a denial of himself for God to force our wills? You see, God is all-knowing which means he knew Adam and Eve would sin. In fact, scripture says that the plan for Jesus to die on the cross was set before the foundation of the world. (1 Peter 1:19-20). Yet, God still decided to create them as free moral agents. They were able to choose and Satan stole their choice by deceit.
You also wrote:
quote:Choosing begins with God's will, not ours. Once we've tasted of His will, the choice becomes a no-brainer as it is said in English since He supplies the empowerment of His pleasure in us.
It is true that everything starts with God's will. But being Christian is as far from being a "no-brainer" as East is from West. Pauls said, "I die daily." This was a daily choice Paul made to surrender his will to God and allow himself to be guided by the will of God. He said, "It is Christ that liveth in me." He lived this life by faith in Jesus. He believed the promises of God and they became his hope and strength.
Don't ever think that being Christian is a "no-brainer." If we live a "no-brainer" life then our flesh will rule over our higher intelligence rather than bringing the flesh into obedience to the mind. Paul understood this. "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (1 Corinthians 9:27).
Every day we encounter choices. If we are still guided by our old habits then we will be making bad choices. Yet, we cannot lie down at night and pray, "Lord, change me while I sleep so that when I awake I will be perfect." No, in order for our character to be changed into his likeness we must participate in the process. Our part is to learn to be submissive to God's will and to trust and obey him. This is our sanctification.
There are many desiring to be Christian. Trouble is they do not choose to be Christian. They let the body rule and have its way rather than firmly telling it, "No!"
Reminds me of the prayer of the little boy who said, "Lord, make the bad people good and the good people nice." Why are there so many unconverted "Christians" today? They are indistinguishable from worldlings except by profession. They have just enough religion to quiet their consciences but there is no real godly power controlling them because they have not chosen to surrender self to God.
Think about it. Many claim to know God. But what says scripture? "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4). And Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Don't you think that it is easier for someone to obey another if they really love that person? Doesn't the service of love make what could be a burden very light? Is this why those who love God find that his commandments are not grievous and his burden is light? "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:3).
How is it that God writes his laws in our hearts and minds? Isn't it by way of the Son of God? Don't we receive the law into our heart when we receive Jesus Christ, the Sinless One, and the Law Giver? (Romans 3:19-22). When self is subdued in Christ, then love will spring forth spontaneously. Yet, without the love of God there will be no desire to choose his service. It is the operation of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts that brings forth the desire to choose Christ. We cannot choose to serve him unless he has first chosen to reveal himself to us.
You make it sound as if God forces us to serve and love him...
...Yet, without the love of God there will be no desire to choose his service. It is the operation of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts that brings forth the desire to choose Christ. We cannot choose to serve him unless he has first chosen to reveal himself to us.
The quote I kept is of the first and last lines of your post. I agree with you and yet by God's love we get compelled with the force that forces itself upon my choosing and if need be, all the way to:
“ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. 12, 5-11
To help our choosing, we are told that the beginning of wisdom and understanding is the fear of the Lord.
We are told to fear the one Wh can bring death to our body and soul.
We are told to work out our salvation with trembling and fear.
Then we are told that perfect love casts out all fears.
What I mean to say with the expression "no-bainer" is what amounts to the simplicity of our devotion to Christ-Jesus. In this case of the free will to choose God or not once we are a child of God, it is that between the fear/trembling factor, the understanding-wisdom's personal and communal growth and the spanking of God along the way of getting to know obediance to His loving will and the peace that surpasses all understanding or being left in the hell of disobediance, there is a "no brainer" choice to be made, unless one is bent on purposely hurting themselves, which would bring in doubt the very fact that such person is born again and if so, in great need of deliverance. Once born again, the margin of manouvering one's life within the choice to remain in disobediance gets to be handled in the supremacy of He Who is the One Who is and Who knows how to spank efficiently. In my case, 3 months after coming into my life at 16 years old, the Lord had to take me to where no humans could help me out of the darkness where I found myself into because of my lack of knowledge, of vision and of mature leadership from the Church. The descent went on for 2 years into a steady decline, until the last weekend of my 17 years old, when the Lord allowed formy free fall into hades. The Lord had me cornered with inner and outer circumstances such, that He had to rescue me by a nomade type of young christians who were passing in my city at the time, and who took me with them from the street and put a New-Testament in my hands. After waking up screaming in the middle of the first night from the darkness I was into, someone yelled, grab your New-Testament! Once I opened the New-Testament and without even reading anything, there was instant peace from the hell that occupied my nervous system and body. As soon as I closed the "book" I was instantly re-invaded by the raging hum from hell through out my brain and body, until I hurriedly re-opened the "book" and again, there was instant peace. I sat there looking at the pages, too dull to read. I tried closing the "book" slowly a few times, but the hum from hell was following the closing movement and going away as I opened widely. After a few minutes of that bouncing from heaven to hell and back, I started to surrender and I stopped trying to escape what was happening to me. I kept my eyes in the "book" without reading until inside of me, a gentle stream of thoughts that I have come to know as the sheppard's voice Who calls his sheep by name, and the streams carried the message to my mind and body, saying:
"What happened to you 2 years ago and that was so good for 3 months, that was Me, Jesus; not any other name. Now, here is, with this book and these people, where and how you are going to get to know me. Be patient, I am with you."
If Jesus had not been born in our midst as a human and if he had not absorbed all the mortality of Adam, right up from being the last Adam to becoming the life-gining Spirit, by having died, raised from the dead, ascended to heaven and being exulted at the right hand of the Father, and if They had not sent the Spirit to draw all flesh to God, well then, I would simply not be alive today, and if alive, I would certainly not a be witness of the Spirit of all prophecies, carrying the testimony of Jesus-Christ in my body. My choice is between accepting to be a prisoner and a slave to the will and pleasure of my beloved Sheppard or staying within the curse of rejection that the old man is made of; I know the cost first hand, that's attached to refusing the yoke of the Lord.
"Dear Lord, I pray that You make Your obediance complete in me and save me and Your love ones in my life from all the times that I refuse the yoke, until the day when You make of me and of us, Your overcomers against the flesh, the world and satan."
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
quote:Originally posted by jqlogan: When we intelligently comprehend and appreciate the character of God and subsequently choose to serve him and we set our will to obey--regardless of our ability to follow through on it--then God gives us the desire of our hearts which is Christ. Then we recieve the power to become children of God. God will not give the power of the Holy Spirit to the disobedient. Acts 5:32.
I wonder what Mr. Strom believes in this regard? [/QB]
Hello jqlogan;
I am Relic and have read some of your posts in this conversation. You’re right to say that God gave us a choice to love and serve Him or not, and that if our goal is to be lost we can simply do nothing. I also agree on some of the other points you made, but I would like to point out that humans can not "intelligently comprehend the character of God" so please don't say that they can do so. Also, it is not beyond our ability to obey- ever. God has never, nor will ever, present any Christian with any task that is beyond their ability to do. That is partly what trusting God is about. If we truly have the desire of Christ then obeying Him is not beyond our ability.
I believe that a human can even become perfect *before* ascending into Heaven, as Jesus said to His apostles “Ask Me for anything in My Name and I will grant it to you.”
-------------------- Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
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Everyone, as for the main topic about Andrew Stroms’ points:
Throughout such a long time the strength of Christians and Churches has fallen terribly–their closeness to God- has weakened and I, for one, am ashamed of it. It’s no wonder there are no prophets alive today, no wonder Christians are so often made fun of, no wonder that when once God walked among man, now He has left, repulsed by the uncleanness of the earth.
It’s true that Christians should unite in Christ, but there are so few Christians left that are willing to give up their own ideals for God, so few that are willing to be humble and actually *listen* that there’s no point in going to most Churches at all. In such cases, the individual believer must combat darkness with God and is forced through terrible suffering.
However, we can make a difference to all of this, if we truly want to; a righteous prayer with Faith in God is powerful. A revival of the Church is needed and to do this, there must be a broad acceptance of Christ Jesus. For this to take place, we as Christians must pray for it in Righteousness and Faith in Christ, as well as against the evils of this world- otherwise things will only get worse.
Surely everyone’s noticed that for a long time things have been changing; Christians are losing more and more rights, but few stand up for themselves or for God. For an example, while groups like the homosexual movement have festivals in which they perform grotesque acts in public and get praised for it, if a Christian tries to spread the Word of God he’s accused of being a lunatic, a disturber of peace, etc.
If this continues, I have no doubt that in years to come there will be an open killing of Christians, as prophesied in Revelations; with the way things are going, something like the murder described in that prophecy may be much closer than we think.
In order to support what I say, I provide examples of the lukewarmness –even corruption- in the Churches and Christians of today, and also of some of the evils of today’s world:
V for Vendetta, a movie that portrays and praises the killing of Christians has been praised *by* many Christians!
In important English courses, necessary for entrance into University, students are taught about homosexual rights, how it is okay to be homosexual (and even how homosexuals should be praised for “suffering prejudice and standing up to the rest of society, challenging widely-believed stereotypes” etc.) These things are biased and whether the student believes such things or not is important to graduate; in other words, students are robbed of proper education and often only those who have their minds poisoned with strange and twisted beliefs are allowed entrance into Uni, while those that might be intelligent but disagree with homosexuality are stamped down.
Most important are Bible verses, many of which clearly state that the world is dark and wicked, that teach about how the earth is Satan's kingdom and conquering the world, a few of which I have brought up before.
There are so many other examples of the world’s corruption, and the corruption of so-called “Christians”, but I won’t make any more here as they are too numerous and my post is exceedingly long all ready; what I have said is of course less than a mere speck of the horrors and lies that Satan created and are taking place *now*.
This, then, is my opinion on the words of Andrew Strom, and these have been the examples I have given to support my claims- and there are also Bible verses that support these claims.
Lastly I request, as a fellow brother in Christ, prayer against these evils and against what the world is becoming and has become; a prayer for the revival of the Church and of Christianity, a prayer that God’s Name be glorified and Jesus’ Name be honoured and the Holy Spirit be widely accepted into people’s hearts. Amen.
Relic.
-------------------- Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
I apologize if I made anything unclear by my terseness. You have corrected me.
I applaud your boldness in the Lord regarding your reply to my earlier post. There seem to be few who claim the promises of God as assuredly as you have proclaimed. I am so refreshed and encouraged by your child-like faith and trust.
quote: I believe that a human can even become perfect *before* ascending into Heaven, as Jesus said to His apostles “Ask Me for anything in My Name and I will grant it to you.”
Oh, if only more Christians claimed this promise what a swell of reformation would result. And why should we doubt it? We profess to have Jesus, the Perfect One, living in us and working out his will in our lives. And, he will, if we will lay down our lives and surrender our will to him.
quote: Also, it is not beyond our ability to obey- ever. God has never, nor will ever, present any Christian with any task that is beyond their ability to do. That is partly what trusting God is about. If we truly have the desire of Christ then obeying Him is not beyond our ability.
Quite right. In fact, if God says it, power attends the command--for there is power in his word to fulfill his will. I meant to say that we cannot obey IN OUR OWN STRENGTH. But you are quite right that we can ask God for anything.
Jesus became the second (or last Adam) so he could redeem mankind by perfect obedience in human flesh. It's a mistake to think that Jesus overcame because he was Divine. His difficult task in our flesh was to conceal self (his Divinity) and to do and say only that which the Father instructed him. The same task we have at hand only ours is to die to our sinfull nature.
quote: You’re right to say that God gave us a choice to love and serve Him or not, and that if our goal is to be lost we can simply do nothing. I also agree on some of the other points you made, but I would like to point out that humans can not "intelligently comprehend the character of God" so please don't say that they can do so.
Agreed! We cannot fully comprehend the character of God but God has revealed very specific qualities of his character for our admiration and to commend his love to us and draw us to him. These virtues Jesus made manifest in his life on earth. Read these verses in this regard. I believe they all call us to think about, contemplate, or attempt to comprehend the love of God for us.
quote: 1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
I wish we could start a topic just on this subject and talk about it 'til kingdom come. It is so refreshing...
Thank you for the encouragement, but I don't deserve any "applause for speaking boldly in the Lord"; all I really did was write about what I felt God wanted me to. A servant doesn't deserve any kind of praise simply for doing what his Master tells him to; what I said, therefore, was obedience that's to be expected, not rewarded.
I only hope that some Christians will rise up and defend the honour of Christ's Name; a Name that should under no circumstance be disrespected but that idiotic people trample into the earth constantly. I'm praying against this- I ask that you please pray as well, and encourage other Christians to do the same. I believe that at the moment prayer (i.e. Trust in Christ,) is the best move for us as Christians, before God rises up more strong followers to do His Will.
You said that we have the same task as Jesus had at hand only ours is to "die according to our sinful nature". I agree with this, but maybe it would be more positive to say that all people die, but that kind of death is merely the passing of the spirit from the body to go where it will- Heaven or Hell. But true death only belongs to sinners- Christians are never "dead", but are given the gift of true life via Christ.
Thanks for the post. God bless. Relic.
-------------------- Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Scripture says that it is appointed that all should die once. (Hebrews 9:27). But some Christians will never taste death. (1 Thess 4:17). Yet, every true Christian will die to self. (Romans 6:4). And, the wicked will die twice. (Rev 21:8). Everyone who dies once (the first death) will rise again. (John 5:28,29). But I find no evidence that anyone escapes from the second death.
I believe the death I was speaking of was that of being buried with Christ in baptism. Christ died the death that the law demanded of me a sinner. By faith in Christ's death and resurrection I partake in his death as my own so that I can escape the sure death of all transgressors of God's law. My baptism is my outward witness that I accept his death in my stead. Does this help you understand what I was trying to say earlier about death to our sinful nature?
It’s true what you said in that it is appointed for man to die once, but not all Christians will taste this death, (such as Enoch) true that the wicked will die twice and that all who die the first death will rise… but you find no evidence that anyone escapes the second death? The second death is Hell- but that can’t be what you’re referring to? Through Christ Christians escape this second death.
The physical death in which the spirit leaves the body isn’t true death, but can be thought of as a gift to Christians. When mankind fell, death came into the world; a judgement on sinners, but many (maybe all) of God’s judgements are in fact blessings in disguise; for instance, in death the good find peace and rest (Proverbs) and through death, a judgement, Christians are actually freed from the evils of this world and made perfect.
It brings to mind the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; God planned to bless Adam and Eve whether or not they ate of the fruit. If they hadn’t eaten of the fruit, they would have been blessed in that Satan would have been defeated and God would have granted them Eternal Happiness; they would have been free of death and of sin before even knowing it. Yet, after they *did* eat of the fruit, mankind was blessed in this way; that through Faith in Jesus sin can be conquered and humans can have victory. Faith- a Gift that He brought out of a judgement. It shows how wise God is- God who can bring good out of evil and happiness out of judgements and true life out of death.
Enjoyed your post. God has so many ways to turn something intended for evil into something to bless. Even when the ground was cursed is was to be a blessing for man.
However, if you would go back and read my post you will see that I said I could not find where anyone who experienced the second death escaped from it. In other words, I find no resurrection from the second death. I did not intend for it to mean that EVERYONE experienced the second death BECAUSE there was no escaping it. Sorry for the confusion. Do you have any comments on the second death after my correction?
Oh, is that what you meant? Understood. Well, one comment I have on the second death is the reason no one can escape from it once they are judged: God condemns no one for eternity, since He is Just, but rather sinners are held in Hell by their own continued evil, and the cycle goes on for ever and ever.
Of course, if it *were* possible for someone in Hell to repent, and if they *did*, God would be more than happy to show them into Heaven.
I made this comment because people (such as atheists) often argue that God is unjust to condemn someone for eternity after one lifetime of sin, not knowing that it is in fact the sinners themselves that keep themselves trapped in Hell.
This is an aspect of God's Mercy; that He is always willing to forgive and would prefer that sinners repent than be judged, no matter how great the sinner, though He won't hesitate to judge if need be. God, Who even at the height of His fury is *never* without mercy- and for that, may glory be His.
Well, you may include me with the atheists for this comment but I also would argue that God is unjust if He condemns someone to an eternity of burning after a brief lifetime of sin.
Now hold on! Don't jump to conclusions. I do believe in hell-fire. I believe that the wicked will burn in hell-fire. I believe God is just to burn them in hell-fire. I just don't believe the Bible teaches a hell-fire that burns sinners eternally. I don't believe God could suffer their continual wailings and not be affected with compassion. I believe humans could derive much pleasure from it but not God.
I believe that when the Bible says "second death" it means just that--death. I believe that sinners will be burned up in hell-fire and become ashes. Hell and death are also cast into the lake of fire and we believe they are destroyed. Why not the sinners?
I think the doctrine of hell-fire as understood by so many derives its origin from the belief that men are immortal like God. So many denoms have taught that the soul cannot die even in light of the gospel where Jesus plainly says that God can destroy both body and soul in hell (Matthew 10:28) and the statement by Paul which says only God hath immortality (1 Tim 6:16). I believe Jesus' teaching aptly depicts hell-fire--God will destroy both body and soul.
Perhaps the confusion came about because we have not fully understood the resurrection and the nature of the first death that is appointed unto all men. Jesus taught two specific things on this subject.
1) Everyone that is in the grave will be resurrected (not just the saints)(John 5:28-29)
2) The first death is like a sleep (I assume because we can "wake up" from it) (John 11:11)
Well, we are straying now from the subject of this topic. How did we get way out here? I guess I started this path by saying "Speaking of death..." We could continue this elsewhere if you like.
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