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That was meant to catch your attention. But the truth to the subject line for me is that I find most HC websites to be unattractive or to use a phrase that may or may not be understood by some, "cheesy". That's my flesh talking. I obviously love the heart of these sites and are bringing me to a place in my walk with Christ that is a long time coming. That is a very good place for which I am grateful.
Part of what the institutional church has going for them is they get to do the cool stuff. Stuff I enjoy but not enough to stay there. Does that make sense? I like the cutting edge style and approach to ministry that they can offer as an institution.
The HC is where God is leading my wife and I and we're a very excited about it. I just had to vent that "not so spiritual" side of me that likes those things and the HC websites seemed unattractive to me in that regard.
Hope someone understands what I mean and that I sincerely want Jesus more than anything in our gatherings (not all that stuff). Part of me also thinks however about how much the world needs "that stuff" so that they don't get distracted when meeting the real thing - Jesus.
Boy, do I understand! Our family was always involved with churches trying to do the "latest hottest stuff!" Hillsong worship (our family IS a worship band). Youth meetings with the Newest Word Videos. Launching VBS - in a remote Japanese city. Slick websites... Blah. Blah. Blah.
It does require a different mindset now -seeing our neighbors actually coming over for a cookout as a "strategic breakthrough"! Shutting down "useless quarrels" between other believers as being more long-term fruitful than teaching teen Sunday School. Being excited because the men talked about child-rearing while doing auto repair.
Most of all, realizing that Figuring Out What God Wants is more criticial than any other who-what-when-where-how-or-why question. Who cares if I'm "doing it in Japan" if I'm doing the wrong thing? What different does it make if 250 non-believers show up if they aren't changed? Why should we do the most thrilling VBS if we are actually weaning the kids AWAY from the Kingdom of God?
We have to constantly remind each other of what God is doing, because it is incredibly exciting - it just doesn't have slick posters, hot speakers or bells and whistles to stimulate us.
May God bless you as you make the adjustment.
Laurie Ann
My home a beach-head for the advance of the Kingdom of God My family a resistance movement against the Kingdom of Darkness
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
During a great spiritual conversation with my teenage son, I was reminded about one of the biggest differences I've seen between the early, Book of Acts church and the modern day church: power.
Without banners, the internet, radio campaigns or TV, the early church experienced moves of the Holy Ghost that drew crowds by the thousands. America has witnessed similar events where hungry souls wanting God gathered in tents, humble houses and even horse stables to experience God early in the twentieth century and during other times.
I know what your saying, DPoag. The activites, events, camps, retreats with bells and whistles are attractive. They're fun. But in many ways, don't they draw the folks looking for the "fun" or as Jesus pointed out, the loaves and fishes?
In my opinion, I think many of these activities are things designed by church leaders to keep people busy, or "plugged in" or to fill the need to "be doing something for God".
I think if we, anyone, HC, IC, XYZ, sought God and walked in the Spirit, we would experience a depth and power in God that would make these "things" seem like cheap, dime-store trinkets. And herein lies the paradox: Is God so pleased with us putting on a huge 3-Day conferences/concerts/festivals as He is with the effectual, fervant prayers of a single, righteous man? But then where's the "fun" in that for us? Where are the banners, glossy posters, and neat t-shirts that go with it? There aren't any. But glitter and glory aren't the same thing.
Brother, if we truly understood how much our simple, consistant family fellowship means to our Heavenly Father, we'd gather together in His name with greater passion. What you are doing by meeting together in your home, may very well have more eternal impact than any "City Crusade for God", complete with a dedicated, interactive website ever has.
Be encouraged! Great things happen without fanfare.
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Thanks Laurie Ann and Pat. I agree. I wrote that email as a reaction after visiting a whole bunch of HC sites that left me with a "boring" feeling. That's not always how I feel of course. As we prepare to open our home God has been teaching us a lot about a lot of things. Discovering sites like this one has been very good.
Laurie Ann - I would consider it a break through to have a "cook out" with our neighbors too (although we would call it a bar-b-que...those Californians". Cook out sounds a little more fun though for some reason). I read Randy Frazee's book called "Connecting Church" and he has a lot of examples like yours in there. He connects that with a larger IC but the principles of community are fantastic. We are looking forward to and praying for those things to happen in our neighborhood.
Pat - I'll take power over fanfare like you. Not that I'm "power" hungry but I'm definitely hungry for the real God that is often quenched by the additives we bring to the church. I believe God knows our needs and understands how we tick too. He knows that I'm attracted to certain styles and I don't think He's opposed to styles necessarily but it all has to be put in proper order underneath the more important things, the things that you and Laurie Ann are talking about and that the spirit of the HC.
I would have responded sooner but I did not get an email reply that you both replied to me. I'll have to figure out what setting I need to change to have that feature. Thanks again.
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David: click on the "edit post" button and check the box at the bottom of your posting to send yourself an email notification when someone replies.
I'm with you, David, church fellowship should be fun, exciting and very participatory. BBQ's, trips together, all night prayer times, changing locations, the works! The latitude given in the scriptures is really amazing! So long as the things that should happen when we come together (I Cor. 14:26 and others) do happen, then man, let's have fun, spice it up, enjoy the Lord and each other as much as possible. My original point was that these secondary things shouldn't become the focus (like what I've seen in so many ICs) but ways to promote the first things.
I think we all go through times and seasons, when certain elements (repentance, moderation, focused prayer, ) should happen and be emphasized. That's how and why we need to follow the leading the Spirit (not the monthly organizational manual) and why the role of elders is so important in any church.
And because I can be clear as mud sometimes, let me point out what I mean by power: Dan.11:32, Mark 16:17-18, John 14:12-14, Acts 1:8... If we as the people God walked in this power, according to his design and purpose, and for His glory, I believe that these other things we're discussing would fall into their proper place (the old "business before pleasure" idea).
One last thing about websites: a lot of people have the "Ready...Fire...Aim" aproach about a website. They don't really think it though as to the purpose of a site and who's going to handle it because it's going to take work! A website without a strong purpose and regular updating is a waste of time and money. Counting the cost before we build is very smart!
I will look at the scripture references you gave pertaining to "power".
Your post made me think of a church we visited this past weekend. We have been out of the IC environment for a few months now and my wife is thinking we should hang out at a good IC until we "start" a church in our home. I can't seem to get up the desire to do that and would rather just sit down at our table with my wife, read scripture, talk, pray, sing - and somehow get our kids in that, hmmm, how to do that (we have 3 under 5 years old)... You know what I mean. Good friends, like the one's who invited us to the church I mentioned above, have been encourageing us to "stay in fellowship" like they're worried about us "falling out of fellowship". I'm trying not to be rebellious and I don't believe I'm being rebellious but again it's like I don't want to go back to church in that realm.
What I was going to mention about that church, the IC we visited, was that it had a refreshing combination of the fun stuff I mentioned with a strong focus on evangelism. It was amazing to see all the newly saved people that stood up that represented two thirds of the congregation. It is a new church so it was great to see that it's people were not the transfer growth you normally see when a church starts.
I know I'm going out of the HC realm now so I'd rather bring it back to that. My point is that I agree with your post about having Christ's power fueling what we do together with the fun stuff He knows we enjoy. Thank you sir.
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Hi DPoag, I thoroughly appreciate your posts! And I hear you when you say that you'd prefer to be at home with your family in the Word and prayer together instead of going the IC route. When we were going through the early stages of our IC-HC transition, assembling together and staying in fellowship was/is very important. But in seeking the Lord about all this, He made it clear to me, that He doesn't require us to go through a man-made church ritual in order to obey the command to assemble together. If we aren't functioning as the church when we come together (I Cor. 14:26), then are we really assembling together? Is sitting and watching others "perform" really fellowship?
Our transition wasn't a quick or easy jump. It took time, baby steps, and continuous seeking the Lord for His will. But what He told me directly was this:
1) "Pat, you want to be able to show someone book, chapter and verse why you're doing what you're doing. So I'm not just going to hand you the answers. Look it up for yourself. Know how to read the map so you can show others how with confidence. Study to show yourself approved unto God...(II Tim.2:15)" I'm grateful for those who are concerned about us staying in fellowship. Great! So...let's talk about fellowship according to the scriptures...
2) HC isn't for everybody. For many, it is so counter to what they can see or understand, it will never be "church" for them. Having gone through a number of difficult changes over the years, I'm now okay with these kinds of transitions taking YEARS to develop.
Let's stay in touch and keep each other encouraged! One thing is for sure, if we do our part, God will do His part! And in the end, we will have godly fruit in our lives that no one can argue with.
Your post was timely since you have addressed where we are at in our transition. I'm glad you said that the transition could take years. Not that I'm the kind of person that wants anything to take a long time but again it confirms my feeling of not being rushed into change and letting God do it in us as we step out into new waters.
We are at the place that I'm sure you and many other people on this forum have been where people are asking you "where do you go to church?". My response is we are preparing to open our home for the church. I spoke with someone last night and he was encouraging but also made it a point to say "don't wait too long". Like others that are taken back by our idea to have church in our home (which really it goes much beyond that - I hope - but that's the easiest way to describe it) they of course act happy and enthusiastic but I think some in the back of their mind are thinking we're slipping away or something.
There is a side of me that says what's there to prepare for but at the same time I feel like I'm still learning a lot new stuff right now about the church and His kingdom that I feel to open up our doors formerly may be premature. Based on what you are saying and what I'm feeling these days "the church" never has a start anymore, it is. So we are the church when we gather. I just have to say to others we are starting a church to get them off my back (that sounds bad but it's partly true). I know that we will officially "start" something because God is obviously pro-organization in a sense but I'm not sure how soon it will be. It's mainly the logistics of focusing on our kids, having something for our neighbor’s kids when we gather, how to incorporate them, and also the simple fact that we want to have our neighbors in our home and those relationships are yet to evolve.
Right now we do church with our kids on Sunday morning. We pick a bible story, sing some songs, and do a craft. I think we just need to keep plugging away as a family in fellowship and continue to develop God inspired relationships to add our number.
I know this all sounds familiar to a lot of people that might be reading this. It's fresh to us. Thanks again Pat.
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Acts 2:46-47Mark 3:20; 7:17;9:28,3310:10. There is nothing wrong with having a home church and also at times attending an IC. MOst develop their longing for more than a Sunday service at the Sunday service. You may help others to have the courage to discover a way to a deeper relationship with Christ. Some will never understand that 'church' can be 'done' outside of a building that says ......church on the front of it. ALso, some churches do some things right. There are some outreach ministries of a IC that are good and also fun. There is no reason why you can not participate in that program while not being a member of that IC, and still have your home church. If the IC doesn't want you participating with them, well that will also happen. Don't be shocked. I have seen two churches both containing friends of ours not be able to get together to share a project because basically they didn't want the other to get more credit than themselves. Sad.
Start your home church. Don't think the first home church did it 'right'. There was no set way of 'doing' church then, and none now. Start. Work it out as you go along. Peter took the step out of the boat. After walking on water he started to sink. Did he fail? He went to Jesus. This is our goal.....to come to Jesus. We can't be afraid that we may sink a little along the way. Reach out to Him and He will lift you up. He will lift up your home church also.
-------------------- And everything, whatever you do in word or in work, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus,
I feel like God has been challenging us the same way in regard to our relationship with the IC. We have many friends in different IC's that we have great relationships with and some of them are trying to get us to park at their church. It has actually been refreshing to go and be a part of it not having to feel like we have to commit to a church home as I have always understood and been taught. Honestly for the first 15 years of my life in Christiandom I always questioned people like myself (now) as to why they were so "non-commital". I look at it differently now and realize how much Christianity can have a narrow focus in some respects. We have people now saying to us - come visit us some Sunday and let us pray for you or just come a be a part of it - coming from the people who before I would have labelled as the people who won't commit to "a" church. Anyway I think your comment about there not being a set way of doing church is right. I would like to think that I'm on the road to the set way but it's just not the right spirit and God can't really be figured out and his church just can't be calculated like we often wish it could be - speaking from my perspective. Thanks for your reply.
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Thank you for letting me think out loud. I also find that sometimes the fun thing the IC does is ok if it builds fellowship. However, often the 'fun' things are simply just feeding the IC. Is an outreach to connect others to Christ, or is just to fill the pews? Another example, a 'fun festival' type outreach is exciting. It's big. it's seen and afterwards people have had fun and feel like they have done something, because they are tired. They have worked hard. The question is does the community need a fun festival type outreach? Would the community benefit more from a food pantry? It is summer and so many places have 'festivals' ( strawberry, carnival and the like). But it's summer. Man children eat breakfast and lunch at school. Now that school is out, these children need to eat breakfast and lunch at home. That could be a real burden to a family of little means. Yet the food pantry is much more boring than a festival. Sometimes the work of God isn't bright lights, so to speak. Sometimes the web sites of real church work won't be as fun and as 'bright', but the attraction isto be to Christ, not the church. Thanks.
-------------------- And everything, whatever you do in word or in work, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus,
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