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Keith T, I must ask myself this question. Why have you come here? You openly present yourself as a Reformed Baptist, yet you are here ...on a house church forum.
I ask you, were you raised in some other church? Are you familiar with any other faith? Did you come from another religion altogether? When did you begin this journey of discovery? Did you make all of your discoveries studying within the RB belief system? What do the Reformed Baptist have right as apposed say... the Southern Baptist? Pentecostals? Charismatics? Catholic? Foursquare, etc...
Do you actually believe that you RB folks "hold The Light"? Do you believe that, or were you just generalizing?
You advise me to be cautious reading the Greek Interlinear. Do you know Greek, or are you just posting what you can Google? The truth is, we can Google counter "arguments" until dooms day, and never accomplish anything (as I have countered, and proven).
That being said, here's my story. I'm very interested in yours.
I was born into a "Baptist home." When I was fourish I was supernaturally healed of sever allergies. My mom is an RN with her BSN, and she told the church. We then got "asked to leave" (for the record, my dad was a deacon there).
My mom then began looking for a people that believed that The Lord still healed. We ended up in an Assemblies of God church. I was raised there, but my mother never let any doctrine overshadow The Bible.
About a year ago (after having attended many different churches) I was sitting in an AG church when the pastor made some statements that I thought held the key to more "power" in Christ. He used The Bible, but before I built a personal belief, I did something I had never done before ...I checked The Greek Interlinear. To my horror, I found that the KJV verse was not even in the Greek text any more!
When I asked the pastor about this, he agreed ...then he went on to find even more problems (dealing with this doctrine) He then preached the error as truth! I left.
I have personally experienced; The Catholic church, the Baptist church, the Church of Christ, many Nondenominational churches, an Amillennial church, the United Pentecostal church, the Assemblies of God church, the Foursquare church, the Nazarene church, the FGBMFI, and home fellowship (I refuse to call it church, since we are The Church).
I have come here to express my new-found freedom. Again, why have you come here?
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I find the whole "reformed baptist" thing intriguing... It really seems to be acknowledgment that Calvinists are not quite right, Armininians are not quite right, so we'll just take bits of each and blend them into a new theology, where nobody is quite right...
I like my new theology much better: the Theology of Paradox. Just because we don't understand how to reconcile seemingly contradictory scriptures (such as once-saved-always-saved vs. trampling-on-the-Son) doesn't mean that they are not both fully and equally true.
Because God is outside our little ordered universe.
I'm always glad to have non-house-church people join our little chat group here. It stretches us. However, I do always hope that they might be here out of a desire to understand rather than a desire to correct.
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Keith, if you are still around, I hope you will continue... though perhaps at a slower pace. If I may learn from you, God be thanked. If you from me, likewise.
The reformed baptists have an affinity with the other reformation churches which today include a few methodists and even reformed pentacostals - mostly presbies, though. Did I mention the Lutherans? The only difference between the bapties and the presbies is the subject and mode of baptism issue. Other than that, they are pretty tight.
(Me, I am not real keen on handles like 'reformed' or 'calvinistic' and I also believe that reformed church government could use a tune-up. Truth is, house church people are seriously divided on those matters, too.)
I would not write off the reformed movement as a dead relic of the past. From Christianity Today Magazine:
quote:Young, Restless, Reformed Calvinism is making a comeback—and shaking up the church. by Collin Hansen | posted 09/22/2006 09:30 a.m.
Nothing in her evangelical upbringing prepared Laura Watkins for John Piper.
"I was used to a very conversational preaching style," said Watkins, 21. "And having someone wave his arms and talk really loudly made me a little scared."
Watkins shouldn't be embarrassed. Piper does scare some people. It's probably his unrelenting intensity, demanding discipline, and singular passion—for the glory of God. Those themes resound in Desiring God, Piper's signature book. The pastor for preaching and vision at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis has sold more than 275,000 copies of Desiring God since 1986. Piper has personally taken his message of "Christian hedonism" to audiences around the world, such as the Passion conferences for college-age students. Passion attracted 40,000 students outside Memphis in 2000 and 18,000 to Nashville earlier this year...
40,000 screamin' students. Can you believe that? National house church conferences, by comparison, pull in only a few hundred people of every age, even in major cities.
Hope the health of your life partner is improving, Keith. Visit here when you are able, my brother.
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There are not contradicting verses in the Bible. For the answer to once saved, pleased read A Right Conception of Sin by Richard S. Taylor. 128 pages that is really a must read! Also, I agree that looking at Scripture in the original Greek is 'eye-opening'. You don't get quite the meaning (and power) from KJV certainly, or even NKJV.
40,000 screamin' students. Can you believe that? National house church conferences, by comparison, pull in only a few hundred people of every age, even in major cities.
D., aren't home churchers very private by nature? They are disenchanted with their roots in the established church and are probably less likely to be trusting of anything new-- in spiritual lines. I would prefer to think this than to suppose they are suffering from an holier-than-though attitude which would tend to make them see anyone else as inferior, unclean, and unworthy of their association.
To sum it up! I wouldn't expect to see them turn out in large numbers to an organized event. Plus, how do you get the word out? Besides, they may be trying to sort it all out between them and God before they 'join' anything else.
If you are still around, I am sorry if I came accross as adversarial in our exchanges on elders. It is just a subject that I am working through in my studies and in my head, and I enjoyed the oppertunity to work out my thoughts with someone on the forum. I do continue to pray for your wife, and hope to hear from you again here soon .
Hi Jeff- and everyone!
I think you can get a view of house churchers that is a bit skewed by just interacting with those in the western world. I recently read a book that I would wholeheartedly recommend, it is called "Church Planting Movements- How God is Redeeming a Lost World" by David Garrison.
The first half of it is stories of what is happening throughout the world in house church movements. I think you would be surprised by the enormity of what is happening in some countries! I know that here in the states you will find many house churches of disenchanted christians, but in many other regions you will find house churches full of recent converts who are quite rapidly maturing into healthy, reproducing believers, resulting in new house churches being formed every day! These christians do turn out in large numbers on occasion, though their regular meetings are small. Their regular meetigs are small (not because they are disenchanted) but because this is the pattern that was set for us in the new testament, and is the pattern that fits with the principles of kingdom and personal growth given us by Jesus, as well as throughout the Bible! I don't do church the way I do because of disenchantment, but because of scriptural conviction!
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Sorry for my absence everyone. I was a bit overwhelmed with ministry and health issues (with both my wife and myself), but I checked back in yesterday after D Anderson sent me another gracious reminder. I will try to write some more responses today.
First, I really came to this forum because of Zane Anderson, who I believe represents some of the best things I have seen about the House Church Movement. In fact, he commented on a few posts at my own blog, and I posted an article there about his solid review of Pagan Christianity. His comments also contained a link to the the House Church Network site, and that is how I found this forum. As I recall, I then sent a message telling him who I was and asking if he thought my joining in here would be alright. I think I also made it clear that I didn't want to me a troublemaker.
I didn't come here just to argue or to cause problems or with the idea of trying to correct everyone all the time (although I am not naive enough to think such things would never happen). I have been encountering more and more people at the church I am a part of who have been in house churches, and I have been addressing some issues that have arisen in this connection, and I wanted to have a more balanced understanding of the various groups within the larger movement. After encountering Zane (is he also David?) Anderson, I was intrigued by his views and wanted to find out more about where he and those like him were coming from.
Second, as for the label "Reformed Baptist," it definitely refers to Baptists who hold to Reformed theology in terms of both Calvinism and a Baptist understanding of Covenant Theology. These kinds of Baptists used to be called Particular Baptists historically. We consider some of our best early theologians and pastors men like John Bunyan, John Gill, and Charles Spurgeon. Many Reformed Baptists hold to the Baptist Confession of 1689 (or Second London Confession), but some also hold to the earlier 1644 Confession (or First London Confession). As a matter of fact, one group among the House Church Movement, represented by Steve Atkerson and the New Testament Reformation Foundation, calls the 1644 Baptist Confession their “favorite statement of faith.” So, they are essentially Reformed Baptists as well, at least for the most part, although I think they would not want to use that label.
I also want to say that I agree that we should always maintain the idea of mystery -- what you refer to as "paradox" -- at the center of our theology.
quote: Keith, if you are still around, I hope you will continue... though perhaps at a slower pace. If I may learn from you, God be thanked. If you from me, likewise.
Well, brother, I too hope that we may be mutually edified.
quote:The only difference between the bapties and the presbies is the subject and mode of baptism issue. Other than that, they are pretty tight.
This is pretty close, since we share their affinity for Calvinistic soteriology and for Covenant Theology, albeit with a Baptist spin that denies infant baptism, as you have alluded to. And, yes, we differ on the mode as well, preferring immersion as the proper Biblical mode of baptism.
But we also differ when it comes to church polity. A Baptist distinctive historically, as well as today, is to hold to local church autonomy. We do not agree with the Presbyterian view that has presbyteries and a general assembly that can exert authority over local churches at times. So this is another pretty strong area of disagreement. I am glad, however, that we have been able to work together on things like the Together For the Gospel Conference.
I was also blessed to attend a Presbyterian seminary, where I was treated with much love and respect.
quote:(Me, I am not real keen on handles like 'reformed' or 'calvinistic' and I also believe that reformed church government could use a tune-up. Truth is, house church people are seriously divided on those matters, too.)
As I have already indicated, we Reformed Baptists also have some issues with the Reformed view of church government. As for the labels, I have a kind of love-hate relationship with them. They can be very helpful, but then they can also lead to a lot of division and misunderstanding at times. But for the most part they are helpful, I think, so long as we explain what we mean by them. This is why these posts are good. It is helping to clear up some of the muddy water.
quote:40,000 screamin' students. Can you believe that? National house church conferences, by comparison, pull in only a few hundred people of every age, even in major cities.
I just finished reading Young, Restless, and Reformed, and it did a good job of documenting what I have been seeing as well, a resurgence of Reformed soteriology among many evangelicals, especially among the younger generation and in campus ministries. In fact, I am beginning to see this trend on the campus where I have been doing some teaching lately, and I hope it continues. Perhaps the most influential voices -- in terms of literature -- have been John Piper and R.C. Sproul. Their books -- especially John's -- have had a tremendous impact.
quote:Hope the health of your life partner is improving, Keith. Visit here when you are able, my brother.
Thanks for your continued concern for my wife, Kim. She has finished all six cycles of chemotherapy and has been doing very well.
Thanks to all the forum members here who may have prayed for her!
If you are still around, I am sorry if I came across as adversarial in our exchanges on elders. It is just a subject that I am working through in my studies and in my head, and I enjoyed the oppertunity to work out my thoughts with someone on the forum. I do continue to pray for your wife, and hope to hear from you again here soon.
Jeanne,
You really didn't strike me as "adversarial" in our exchanges. As I recall, we both just stated what our views were and gave reasons for them. I really don't mind a passionate exchange of ideas. The way I see it, if a person isn't passionate about what he/she believes, then maybe they should believe something else. At any rate, we should always be passionate about the truth and seeking the truth in God's Word. Don't ever worry about offending me by demonstrating such a passion. I admire it and wish more people had it!
The main thing is to be passionate, direct, and respectful, which is a tone I think most on this forum carry off pretty well. And, by the way, I don't think it is disrespectful at all to be direct and plainly state disagreements or offer correction if necessary.
Anyway, you haven't offended me in the slightest, and I hope I haven't offended you either.
Thanks also for praying for my wife. We are hopeful that her battle with ovarian cancer is over, but we still pray that every blood test and CAT-scan will be a good one.
So glad to hear things are going better with your wifes health! Thanks for getting back! I am glad I didn't strike you as "adversarial"- it is just so hard to tell when communicating online. You did not offend me either- I enjoyed the exchange!
Kieth, it sounds as if you are a pastor. I was curious if you read the article that Lahry referenced recently, and wondered what you thought of the idea of bringing open participatory practices back into church? The thead the article is on is....well I'll try to find the title and edit it back in here - It is called "Bottom line on home church's..."
I just saw you last post. Yes, I am one of three elders in my church. And, no, I haven't yet read the article you mentioned. Perhaps I will find time to take a look at it soon.
No, that is not the article I am refering to. The article is called "The Concept of Open Ministry". Do you remember what thread that came from Lahry? You must have posted it in mid to late January.
I asked if you read it Kieth because I am curious how the idea sounds to someone in traditional church leadership- I found the article very interesting and wondered about the possibility of bringing in more open ministry concepts and practices into the traditional church meeting. I respect your opinions and can see that you have a heart for both the church, and the lost- I really do hope you find and read this article because I would love to hear your take on it.
Email this page to someone.
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