posted
I am asking this because I do not see much difference between the organic church and any established church. I am only going to list a few items. It will be interesting to read any responses.
IC: Creed and traditions - How we operate - How we are known HC: Metrics and rules - How we operate - How we are known
IC: Open criticism of other denominations. HC: Open criticism of the IC.
IC: Attempts to centralize thinking and authority. HC: Websites, conferences and books attempting to centralize thinking and authority.
IC: Obvious when the church is operating in the flesh. HC: Obvious on forums and books, etc. when the HC is operating in the flesh.
IC: Says all that is needed is "Christ alone" yet relies on works, programs and pragmatic methods. Christ's absence is obvious. HC: Says it is Christ alone yet there is an underlying bitterness seen in various forums, books, etc. that does not speak of Christ's presence.
Allow me to ask this question. Is it really Christ alone you are seeking?
Thanks - I look forward to any responses.
Tarheel
-------------------- Tarheel I am a Warrior I am a Child
My earliest memories were of Montreat, near Asheville, NC. Glad you stopped by.
Sin dogs all of us till death and clouds the mind, so I suppose we're all the same in many respects. I, for one, have never held that house churchers are superior.
Jesus frequently associated himself with a whole body of information about every area of life. He stated that if we loved him we would obey a certain set of commandments summarized by love. He even endorsed the Old Testament, which he fulfilled.
So, there are plenty of things to disagree about but disagreements should not divide us. Even if we just look at the person, ministry, and words of Christ alone, few if any perfectly agree on all the details. Obviously, as in the case of many Jews then and many religious people today, a person can grasp many of the details and miss Him.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me AND my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
John 7:16-17 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
His commission was to preach Him AND convey all the things he had taught, not merely his name or even his personal story. Granted, he is the sum of all and the highest good - God incarnate. Granted, we need more of Him each hour, each minute. Granted, he alone, can justify us by his grace alone. He alone is the source of all spiritual power.
Jesus, the Christ, is to have the preeminence IN all things but he does not replace all things. All human actions are to be done unto his glory. Therefore all things - all thoughts, ideas, actions, institutions, atoms, molecules are under his Lordship and ownership and therefore all things in the universe have significance.
What is your response, tarheel? You have given this question much thought, I see. How might you practice "Christ alone?" Who is doing it right since IC and HC have seemingly failed?
I've heard the phrase a lot but never read it in the Bible though I have the drift of how it's used today and what is meant and am OK with it. Please enlarge on this topic whenever you are able.
I will try to address your comments on Practicing Christ Alone. And, keep it as short as possible.
Practicing Christ Alone is not a way of life or actually a practice. But for lack of a better expression I do use Practicing Christ Alone. It is not a belief or conversion to a set of ideas, religion or theology. It is not the seeking of experiences or spiritual highs. It is certainly not what we do for Him or think that we do. It is not trying to be like Him though that is a God given goal.
For brevity I am going to make a numbered list.
1. It of course begins with true salvation. After this we must realize that Christ left the cross and moved on to a more glorious existence taking His rightful place. It is gaining the understanding that our salvation comes as a result of the cross but we cannot stay at the cross living in the basic foundation of being a Christian. We also must move on with Christ. Remember what He said, “Follow Me”
2. It is the realization that Christ offers us more than salvation. As the savior He saves. As the Son, He sets us free. He saves us from our sins then sets us free from sin. Sadly far too many Christians only see Him as salvation and do not understand the freedom and liberty He has to offer and continue to live under a religious spirit. Total victory is obtained by faith just as salvation is. “Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.”
3. It is being crucified with Christ. This is a point worth very deep thought and prayer. “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.”
I believe only God can envelop anyone with a full understanding of what these words mean. Those who have been crucified with Christ having nothing left to fear. We have been slain not redirected as Tozer say’s it.
4. It is sharing in His suffering and realizing why. The Just One suffered for all mankind and we the unjust refuse suffering. If we do suffer for righteousness sake we think it is on His behalf rather than with Him. If Christ is indeed in you, you will suffer.
5. It is the personal realization granted by God that Christ indeed indwells us.
This is a reply to the first part of your response to me (the first part.)
I agree with much you say. But I know the answer is really simple. We fail when we live in the flesh. We compete, criticize, and practice religion. No matter what spiritual level we stand on or if we are HC or IC, living in the flesh creates problems.
But how can we live in the flesh if we have died with Christ? That is the mystery we must understand. When that understanding is gained a new life of thought and behavior begins.
Another fault we are guilty of is we pursue religion rather than righteousness. We pursue answers for this life and world rather than His kingdom. We look for miracles when the greatest miracle is Christ alive. And sadly many of us don't know how to pursue righteousness or His kingdom. But God can open our eyes and ears to the simplicity of the goals He has for us.
Thanks,
-------------------- Tarheel I am a Warrior I am a Child
WOW! You have put words to some basic spiritual principles that I have been learning, but have had a harder time putting in writting. Thank you!
I agree with you! This is the life that God yearns for us- to live as you put it "practicing Christ alone", or as I have said "living by the Spirit". We go astray when we "live by the flesh", which I think can take the form of either giving into fleshly desires, or trying to overcome them ourselves (which is a type of legalism, and is often what religion teaches us to do). This I think is the main message of rom. 7. Ch. 8 then going into the freedom that can be ours by "living by the spirit".
Anyway, this doesn't answer your origional questions. To answer I would say that I believe that for me anyway, God has lead me to house/simple church because it is the type of church community that fosters my understanding and living out of these principles that you spoke of. I have watched others in our community come to a closer walk with God in this way as well- especially new believers. I have been amazed at the rapid growth in "practicing Christ alone" amoung new believers that we have been involved with. Have we done everything right? I can say most deffinately not, but meeting together in this more relational and fluid way I think helps to keep us turning to and trusting Him for guidance rather than trusting in a standard way of doing things, which can subtly train us to trust in man. This life that you spoke of is one of learning to trust Him who now indwells us- it is a relational way of approaching life. Shouldn't the way that we meet together as indwealt ones also reflect this way of living?
quote:You have put words to some basic spiritual principles that I have been learning but have had a harder time putting in writting.
It is good to write and I glad to see you do it. God teaches us most by words. His goal is for us to realize truth. When we posses truth no one can take it away and our faith can never be shattered.
quote:I agree with you! This is the life that God yearns for us- to live as you put it "practicing Christ alone", or as I have said "living by the Spirit".
I have had questions about "Walking in the Spirit." At times walking was intense and fruitful and at other times it was a concept hard to grasp. But I have learned that the Spirit is all about Christ and nothing else. When we are also about Christ the Spirit inspires and does His work. It's kind of like talking to a mechanic who loves his work. When you talk about cars, he talks and gives his best. When you talk about politics, he is silent.
The intra-Trinitarian love of God is the greatest of His loves and it is reserved for Himself, Christ and the Holy Spirit. If you love Christ then of course the Father beams on you. It's a pretty simple concept.
quote:God has lead me to house/simple church because it is the type of church community that fosters my understanding
I would say this is great. If God's Spirit testifies with your spirit that this is the place to be then consider yourself in His will. Please remember to not be distraught when your testing comes as a result of being in His will.
quote:Shouldn't the way that we meet together as indwelt ones also reflect this way of living?
I totally agree. Nothing is greater than to smell the fragrance of Christ on others. It is a blessing and restoration to be around those we are connected with through Christ. The way we meet is not as important as being one.
quote:This life that you spoke of is one of learning to trust Him who now indwells us- it is a relational way of approaching life.
On this I have a slight disagreement. I do not think we learn to trust Christ. If we are saved we trust Him. Doubt is cured by simply affirming our belief when other thoughts come in and realizing the power of sin to produce sin in us.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
You sound like a thinking person and that is great to see.
I love the way you phrase things- yes, this life of Christ that God calls us to is so simple, yet at the same time can be hard to wrap our minds around . I see trusting Christ as key to salvation- key to what it means to have faith, but I guess I don't see this as a one time event, but something that we must do daily "take up your cross daily and follow me". The first time we do this it results in salvation, and then we continue to do this each day in an ongoing sanctification. I think that we can fall back into trusting in ourselves so very easily- which is what I believe rom 7:20 is speaking about. I think we must trust God continually, and as we do we can marvel at the trasformation the Spirit, Christ, and the Father work within us. This is what I meant by learning to trust in Christ. Maybe you see things a little differently.
I would love to know what you think about your origonal question. I said before that although you can stray from seeking Christ alone no matter what way you meet, meeting in the organic/house style is more conducive to this "Christ alone" lifestyle. This is my opinion anyway. What is yours? Also, it seemed from other threads that you were looking into checking out a group that seemed to be meeting more in this organic way- how is that going?
[q]yes, this life of Christ that God calls us to is so simple, yet at the same time can be hard to wrap our minds around [/q]
So true, all it takes is belief. The gift of a victorious life and Christ living through us is only a belief away.
[q]I see trusting Christ as key to salvation- key to what it means to have faith, but I guess I don't see this as a one time event, but something that we must do daily "take up your cross daily and follow me".[/q]
As I see it, after salvation we do take up our cross. Our cross is the daily duty set before us with willingness to be disgraced or suffer for Christ and continued obedience to God's will as we know it. Our daily duty may be boring and mundane. Yes God knows we live in a work a day world with real life activity and problems.
[q]I would love to know what you think about your original question. I said before that although you can stray from seeking Christ alone no matter what way you meet, meeting in the organic/house style is more conducive to this "Christ alone" lifestyle.[/q]
I would like to give you a whiz bang answer here about the pluses of any type of assembly and which might be best to live righteously. But my personal experience is to "be alone with God". During being alone with God the mind changes and realizations take place and our life is different. My burden is for God's people in any setting.
This is an exciting journey we are all on, hu? . Keep asking your questions! And PLEASE- keep us up to date on how the Lord is answering them for you !!!
I can only give you the books I have come to respect because of the "straight shooting" presented about Christ and living spiritually in a practical world..
Books: Lifetime Guarantee by Dr. Bill Gillham Reaching for the Invisible God by Philip Yancey They Found the Secret by Victor Raymond Edman Flying Closer to the Flame by Chuck Swindol Victory in Christ by Charles G. Trumbull The Matthew Henry Commentary
I have learned to be careful of what I read or listen to. Christ said a "little leaven leavens the whole loaf." And I try to see the influences of the writer. Is it Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, etc? I prefer non-influenced authors whose goal is one I can see.
What books or authors have any of you found to be of worth in your journey. Tell us why.
The Indwelling Life of Christ- All of Him in All of Me by W. Ian Thomas is a great little devotional book on what I think of this topic on "Christ alone". I have also read Victory in Christ, which I really liked as well.
There was a little book I read in 1995 that totally changed my life in a really huge way! I mean huge!! You may have read some of my testimony elsewhere but I will share a little here to give you a sense of the power of this little book.
My life was turned around almost completely in one weeks time. My wife went to visit her folks in Virginia (we lived in Calif at the time) and was gone for 10 days. We she returned she asked me, "Where is my husband?" I replied, "I am your husband." She said, "No, my husband died."
You know what? She was right. The old me had died. Suddenly I wanted to give my entire life over to Christ. Everything I saw, heard, tasted, thought, and where I went... everything! The rock music changed to hymns. The Sci-Fi movies changed to mostly reading of the Bible and Christian authors--almost zero TV except perhaps the weather and a little news. No movies, no magazines. For a time I even wouldn't look at a woman but I soon realized that made me seem rude. (I liked women so I felt that was a trial for me.)
I had been trying to stop smoking and cut way down on my drinking but after reading this little book I stopped both in an instant and haven't had one desire for either in 13 years. That is a miracle from God. I even stopped eating prime rib (bloody) and eventually stopped eating meats altogether along with other things I felt weren't the very best for my health. Anything that would cause me to be a poor representative of God, or that would affect my ability to think clearly, or distract from the beauty of Christ I willingly gave up. I even tried to stop using things with vinegar in them because vinegar is similar to alcohol esp. on the liver. (You know how our health effects our witness. If we aren't in the best health then we can't give our all to Christ. We will be taking care of ourselves instead of others.)
Anyway, it was a dramatic change and although I didn't think I needed anything in my life (I thought I was pretty happy) I was glad for the changes and I thank God over and over for the power to get out from under the slavery to things.
Well, I hope this wasn't too much. I haven't even mentioned how my health changed and how my insurance company doubled my life insurance policy benefit without changing my premiums. Of course I had to have a thorough physical exam which showed that I was in the top 2% of the nation as far as health. Oh, my blood pressure dropped from 135/85 to 105/65 and my heart rate went from 85 bpm to 60 bpm. And I lost about 40 lbs-- perhaps the negative part.
Anyway, that was a real change and it has lasted these 13 years and I attribute the opening of my eyes and the drawing to the Lord to this little book. Oh, the little book? "Steps to Christ", by Ellen G. White. I know you wanted 'non-influenced' authors but isn't that nearly impossible? This is a powerful, well-written, small book worth your read. The funny thing is that the book really didn't dictate what to do but rather just spoke of how Christ loves us, the infinite price He paid to redeem us, the power of prayer, what to do with doubt, and how to know you are consecrated to Christ.
Well, that's my short version of my conversion and the little book which sparked the fire which grew into a flame of desire to know Christ better and began my journey searching the scripture to learn more and still more. I am so thankful to Jesus for what He has done for me. All the things He provides to me that improve my life, my health, my relationship with Him. Oh, how my heart yearned for him in those early days. Oh how I wish for a revival of that kind!
It was sure true in those days that if my eye offended it was cut out. I felt that everything offensive to God I wanted to get rid of. Everything that would separate me from God had to go! I still believe that is true today. May God point out things in my life which are offensive to Him and them give me to power to let them go.
I had to praise God after hearing your story. It never ceases to amaze me how He teaches us and makes an impact in our life with simple words.
[q]Oh, how my heart yearned for him in those early days. Oh how I wish for a revival of that kind![/q]
After those "early" days it sometimes seems God has disappeared. He hasn't. He wants us to live by faith and not by sight. There is so much He wants us to learn in preparation for eternity. The way I see it we are in school here on earth getting ready for His work after our physical death.
-------------------- Tarheel I am a Warrior I am a Child
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Tarheel, good post. Just one point, it is hard to get our head around- because it is active,so dynamic,so complex in practice, filling every nook and cranny in each life, in every corner of the world,now and for all time. WOW!
One issue I have with some house church focus(not locked into its DNA) is much like the issue I have with contemporary spiritual direction practice.
My passion is the MISSION or CO-Mission of The Body of Christ, the church, the people of God.
This Sat. we host the annual gathering and cookout for CCRI. Its like church, good Christian fellowship, but I do not consider it "doing church" because our focus is not on the mission,or purpose of being "church." First time I have expressed it that way, what do you think?
[q] Just one point, it is hard to get our head around- because it is active,so dynamic,so complex in practice, filling every nook and cranny in each life, in every corner of the world,now and for all time. [/q]
Would you elaborate?
-------------------- Tarheel I am a Warrior I am a Child
posted
Hello new friend. Of course I agree Christ changes everything- the alpha and omega you minght say. In Him all things are united.
What I see is some who take Christ internally, but settle for that inward focus and do not grasp that the purpose for the infilling is so that it may overflow, immerse if you will, all who come in contact with it. So, either we have something so overwhelmingly powerful that we Must share it, and as noted elsewhere, share it continually, as per His example, as the very core of our daily lives, or we are really not there yet.
The internal experience is nice, and needed for the full experience, but we really need to urge people to prepare to take that out- to all nations. What do you think of that?
To answer your question: [q]The internal experience is nice, and needed for the full experience, but we really need to urge people to prepare to take that out- to all nations. What do you think of that? [/q}
I answered you early this am but the post did not show up. I will try again to get it to take.
Regarding going to all nations: Jesus meant non-jewish, gentiles, heathen and pagans or another race. I disagree with sending people all over the world when our own homes, families and local people are dying in their sins. We have different races, pagans and heathens around us aplenty. I also disagree with sending people out who have not "tarried" for the coming of the Holy Spirit in their own life, those who have the desire but not the Spirit working in them.
We should plant the mustard seed around us and it will grow onto a big tree that many birds (people)can rest in, rather than trying to plant the whole tree ourself.
-------------------- Tarheel I am a Warrior I am a Child
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Trying not to hog the topics, but wanted to respond. I think it is a real shame that in this day and age we can have an honest, concerned debate over how this is actually intended to work- because we have not yet seen it done.
Yes, "the nations" come to us. I think pentecost is a good example.
I agree world wide mission should not be an escape from our obligations in our own Jerusalems. First things first. That saying would also apply if it were true that His Spirit must be fully absorbed before being "certified" as worthy to do ministry.
I see the example in gospels and letters as the opposite, more trial and error,learn as you go, report for further instruction. "Graduation" may be seen as the filling of The Spirit. If this is the case,( test ALL spirits for truth)then His works, no matter how immature, must go side by side with growth in The Spirit.
If that is true, it may follow that not only does the Spirit propel the work, but the work may propel the ongoing process of Spirit maturity. Reasonable?
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. I see trusting Christ as key to salvation- key to what it means to have faith, but I guess I don't see this as a one time event, but something that we must do daily "take up your cross daily and follow me". The first time we do this it results in salvation, and then we continue to do this each day in an ongoing sanctification. I think that we can fall back into trusting in ourselves so very easily- which is what I believe rom 7:20 is speaking about. I think we must trust God continually, and as we do we can marvel at the trasformation the Spirit, Christ, and the Father work within us. This is what I meant by learning to trust in Christ. Maybe you see things a little differently.
