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I'd like to get a serious thread going about what you all think about those coming out of the churches. What has been your experiences? Have you been able to find fellowship? Why can't we agree on doctrine? What do you think God is doing?
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I can't speak for others, but I can tell you what I have seen, heard, and been a part of. Over the last year and a half, or so... the Lord has been re-working in my husband and I some foundational Truths. He's been re-wiring, correcting, and challenging our belief systems and how we've walked out church. During this process we found ourselves repenting greatly for all the comprimise that we had allowed in our lives through what we called "church".
We are "ex-pastors", and have been highly involved in ministry for many years. Yet, now we have "left our church" in the pursuit of truly being the church as the Word of God has laid out. There were just too many Scriptures that we had "shoved aside" because they didn't fit within the church structure we had found ourselves in. This is where we were highly challenged. If we are putting aside scripture in this way we were obeying an institutional organization and not God. We by no means are seeing ourselves seperated from the Body of Christ. Actually... it's just the opposite. We are walking with about 50 others and are experiencing continual growth. Although it is NEVER our goal to buy a building, "hire" a "pastor" and build a mega church. Our goal is to grow "sideways" and truly allow the hand of the Spirit to organically dwell among us as followers of Christ, walking together, in profound, accountable, vital relationships with every "member" being joined together. The Lord is leading into revelation knowledge about His role as the Head of the Body, His Bride, the Church. We have discovered other groups of people around the world that have 'left churches' just like us, in order to pursue a more "radical" pursuit of Truth. it is NOT in rebellion, and it is NOT outside of TRUE authority. I've never walked in more truth with my brothers and sisters in Christ. What we have left was some non-scriptural "service" that wrongly led people into believing that through this ritual they are accomplishing what it means to be a Christ follower. In this organization, we barely knew anyone... let alone had real relationship where we could walk out (in reality) all the scriptures demand we walk out IN RELATIONSHIP.
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We are not angry, or judgemental towards organized religion. We are on a personal pursuit. And I firmly believe it's a move of God. It's been referred to "the third reformation" for a reason. I think the Lord's hand is reforming His Body. And I think it's a good thing.
We've got to be careful to not judge the hand of God too quickly.
Evaluate... from all angels... with the Word in Hand. Be like the Bereans and ask God the hard questions. The traditions of men nullify the Word. We've got to be willing to take a look at our present situation and bring it before God and allow Him to purify us in any way He sees fit.
Just some long-winded thoughts from a "church leaver". .... and a "church finder".
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People come into the HC from so many different systems, denominations, flavors, doctrines, etc. When the spirit shows us we must come out of all the false things, we don't suddenly know everything correctly. Rather each of us begins to see some of the wrong things we believed from where ever we heard it. Some of us are new Christians, some older, some never in IC, some in IC many years before awake. Even if we had all started together as new Christians, some would mature faster than others just like children develop differently. God doesn't always teach each of us the same thing at the same time either.
So we have some with this baggage, one with that baggage, and so on. It is like some in kindergarten and some in junior high and others in high school. Is it any wonder that there is still disagreement? Remember the tower of Babel where the false religions started. God gave them all different languages so there was much confusion. Now we must come out of all that confusion, all the different religions, denominations, doctrines of men, etc. Our suitcases had many different things in them. Thus, to see the baggage is one thing and to get rid of all the many items in that bag is something that takes a while.
God speaks of gathering the tares first, then his own into the barn. While we are in the world, we are not of the world. He separates us. We are spoken of as the small flock, remnant, called out ones.-----------never the bunched together ones, big bundles, etc.
I believe he has separated us from the world and yet his timing in teaching us all to know all the same things at the same time seems to keep us separated still. I suspect we each must go through the shifting of the tares from the wheat in our own lives. The tares being our wrong ideas and baggage. I don’t believe any of us will ever know completely all truth or understand all scripture perfectly because we are still in our flesh. We can’t trust our hearts for our hearts are human. Rather we trust him in our heart to lead us in his word. We are being perfected. Positionally we are perfect by Christ and able to enter into the kingdom thru him. Once changed into our incorruptible man, we will be able to grasp all truth.
So when we disagree, we should be careful lest it is us who is wrong. It is good to not judge another man’s heart but rather his fruits and that by the word of God. No matter how much we learn, there is still something else we could learn. To say we are always right is dangerous thinking and seems to be what those in power over others always say.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
I have to agree with you wholeheartedly with all that you said. We are all convinced each one of us is right and then, especially if I find myself wrong (which I have already) it makes me so sad. Not only for the fact I was in error but also that I had thought I was so right.
Faith, if I might share this with you and I am really serious. I go all over the internet looking and searching for people who know the truth about the churches. Today I learned that you can go into msn, yahoo, and aol group discussions and do a search for home church and bring up all the groups under that topic. I didn't know that you could do this before. I've found quite a few new groups just today alone. But one thing that is very discouraging is that most of the groups I am finding is saying that they support home church but doing that with the institutional churches together and making all just one body in Christ. You know, Faith, that is nothing more than the devil just wanting his people that he lost, back. People like you and I need to stick together somehow through thick and thin of it all. Just make a commitment to do it. Because if we don't Satan is going to just take everything back. Thank goodness for that promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church!!!!!
Baggage, one of the suitcases some people have is that we have to do this with the institutional churches. Wrong!!! How wrong! Very wrong!
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I guess Jesus, himself, would be accussed of trying to unify all the saints. His dying prayer, I recall, was that his people would be one. See John 17.
It is one thing to seek unity among all believers and quite another to attempt to join all the "churches" together.
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Joh 17:11...that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
In John 17, was the Lord really calling for unity among believers when He prayed that they all may be one? Or was He calling for something else? The only thing that can produce unity among believers: "...as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us..."
Eph 4:1 I beseech you therefore, I, the prisoner in the Lord, to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, bearing one another in Love, 3 Being diligent to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace:
Eph 4:13 Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
One source we can walk in produces division. The other source has it's fruit or expression between brothers too. This expression between brothers is: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, etc. But, it's not our fruit. We are just the branches which bare it. This One is the only one who can produce true unity between brothers and build up the body in Love.
So how then or by who were we called? Because we need to walk worthily of The Calling with which we were called.
Beautiful words you have brought our way as have others, too. Ahhhhhh...
And just think how much is involved in that little word UNTIL in Eph 4:13 UNTIL we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
It implies to me a process, an ongoing work, and the need for patience with others - even ourselves.
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John 17:14-26 (KJV) I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. [19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. [20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; [21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: [23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. [24] Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. [25] O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. [26] And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
What a beautiful passage. So what does it mean to be one as Christ is in the Father and the Father in him
Does this passage speak of unity of people to one another or unity of one group to another group? No. It specifically addresses Christians are to have the love of the Father in them and Christ in them. This refers to abiding in Christ and he is us. We are to have the same mind as Christ. We believe him, we give our loyalty to him, we follow him, do what he teaches, become so filled with him that we think as he thinks. We get to know him so much, we become like him. We die to self so much that he lives in us and our thoughts and actions reflect him.
Years ago I was discussing what was the problem in the majority of churches today with a friend. Why didn’t either of us feel comfortable in these places? Why did we feel that Christ was not in these places? Why was he not reflected by the members? Why did we feel rejected as Christ did by his own people? Love. There was no Christian love coming from the people in these meetings. Christ was not in their hearts. Everyone seemed interested in their own selfs.
Money, things, entertainment, etc. seemed to be motivating everyone. We could find no Christian fellowship because no one was interested in anyone else. All the groups seemed interested in what you had that could benefit them. Did you have lots of money to give to keep up the building? Did you have lots of time to give to their many activities? Did you have a skill you could give them? Did you have a special gift you could entertain them with? Were you willing to sit quietly and ignore blatant sin in those deemed to be valuable to the group? Did you follow all their doctrines regardless of if they actually were scriptural or not? Did you fit in? To fit in you had to join the herd and follow the leader of the group.
Is herd mentality unity? Is that what Christ meant by being one with the Father. Is that what he meant by being in him and him in us? Does abiding in him have anything to do at all with the herd? Did Christ ever teach to gather men together to be in unity with him? Did Christ teach taking cities for him? Or didn’t he teach salvation for the individual, a personal relationship between Christ and the Christian?
I remember the story of the tower of Babel. The people decided to build a tower to heaven. This is the same old desire of Satan from the start, to be God. To unify mankind, to build something big that he could rule over. Big churches, lots of little churches networked to the big one and even little house cell churches networked to the others. So there would be one big huge network. But what are they doing? Are they the real thing? Is the love of Christ in them? Are they his disciples or the disciples of the network? Is this true religion or false religion?
James 1:27 (KJV) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Ah! Pure religion is to visit orphans and widows and keep one’s self unspotted from the world. Nothing is said about joining a group, unifying with other men, etc.
All the greats of the Bible were separated, taken aside by God, taken into the wilderness alone with him to get to know him and him to know them. They walked with God, not with other men. They were for the most part rejected by men but did mighty things for God. Moses, Noah, Lot, Daniel, Job, David, Elijah, John the Baptist, the disciples: none of these men were liked or networked with large groups of people.
During the early church, the disciples did travel to various areas to the various churches but was there actually a network? It certainly wasn’t like today. The disciples went to the churches they started not churches started by the Pharisees or pagans, etc. Today, we have everything trying to claim to be Christian and many believing everything is Christian. The Christian kingdom of men that we see today is not Christian. It is worldly religion. It has no love toward others; it loves the world. That is what we are called to come out of not join ourselves to.
As far as scripture is concerned the only call for any type of unity is to abide in Christ and him in us. That is what unifies and joins together the body of Christ. It is not something men create by networking and unifying into various groups.
Eph. 4 is the only place unity is mentioned and it refers to the unity of the Spirit, forebearing in love. There is one body, one spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father. This is how we are unified. Those with the spirit are unified by that spirit----- Not by joining hands with those who are pretenders and workers of iniquity who deny the power of God as in 2 Tim 3 who worship another Jesus. 2 Cor. 11
Ephes. 4:1-16 (KJV) I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, [2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
2 Tim. 3:1-7 (KJV) This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. [2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, [3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, [4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; [5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. [6] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, [7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Cor. 11:4 (KJV) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
I noticed in Eph. 4 that we are still being perfected “Till we all come in the unity of the faith,…” Thus, we are not perfected nor unified with each other until we all “grow up into him in all things….” Just as God has made the human body which had different parts that mature at different times, his church body is “fitly joined together” as he has seen fit even though we mature at different times.
The Pharisee couldn’t see the kingdom of God though it was right in their midst. They looked for an earthly king and leader they could see with their physical eyes. Still today men desire to join together to build something they think is necessary to unify the kingdom of God. Christ is quiet capable and has already build that kingdom when he came to the earth. It can’t be seen by men because they look with earthly eyes. The kingdom of God is not of this earth; but is spiritual. Though we seem few, scattered and unorganized, we are of the one body and Christ is our head. We abide in him and he in us. That is all the unity needed.
1 John 2:27-28 (KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. [28] And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
In thinking of the body, how can the right hand see what the left hand is doing? The hands don’t have the eyes. The eyes are in the head! Christ has the eyes to see and the mind to coordinate every single move of the body. Thus, let us be willing serving hands or feet, etc. and give way to the Lord’s will. Let’s stop trying to be the head but obey him.
When the trumpet sounds the church shall finally be gathered together from the four winds and from one end of heaven to the other. Thus, they remain scattered, growing in the fields of the world until the end. They are not gathered or unified into a manmade group; but unified in the spirit.
Matthew 24:31 (KJV) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Ephes. 1:10 (KJV) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
I have to say a BIG AMEN to everything you have said.
Hey, if you want to find an interesting website go to www.revivalschool.com it is Andrew Stroms website. Now I don't agree with everything Andrew does and says but there are a lot of called out christians posting on his site and it's great to read their posts.
It seems sometimes when I go to these message boards for home churchers that there is not a lot of traffic and I miss the traffic. Well this is a site with very good traffic and a lot of people are saying a lot of good stuff. Most people are still just trying to figure out what is happening to us, and I feel for them tremendously. I don't condemn those who are trying to just figure it out. But I also don't let any error those kind of people may have effect me.
Remember let us do what the bible tells us to do and let NO man deceive us any NO means and let us sincerely take this to heart and heed it. It doesn't matter who it is, who they are, how big their website is, how well known they are, how many books they've written, what they claim to be, or how much it may sound like they know what they are talking about.
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Where are you house churches of Tulsa? I would like to know. I have been waiting to find a group of people who are not looking for some person to take over and lead them in house church. I would like to find a group of people who just want to be friends and family. I love and embrace the idea of house church but so far all I have found is some who want to take me down the same old road.....give me your tithe so I can reach the world. People still building thier kingdoms just calling it house church. ETC....
Email this page to someone.
