posted
I am writing today on behalf of a friend whose small church is being battered. It seems that one of the couples thought to have been married is actually living together with no plans of 'tying the knot.' They claim to be married in God's eyes. Fortunately no children are involved. It is beginning to look as if the group is going to be polarized and God forbid shaken to the foundations. Any wisdom on how to deal with a situation as this? Jan
Is this couple you mentioned claiming to be Christians? If so the bible provides the guidance on how to handle wayward Christians in our assembly.
If the church (I am assuming you mean an incorporated church) is split over calling sin a sin in its midst then there are other issues there in my humble opinion.
-------------------- Tarheel I am a Warrior I am a Child
I'd concur with Tarheel about "other issues". Years ago we experienced a similar situation. A few of us realized something needed to be done. I felt to openly share some scriptures that spoke directly to fornication. Soon after they were married.
Ultimately, if a church will not act like the church, teaching and encouraging righteousness, then God will start correcting that church. Every one of us impacts the whole. Remember Achan and how that one man's actions affected the whole nation of Israel. I read just this morning in Ezekiel, that if he (Ezekiel) failed to warn the wicked of their ways, and they die in their sins, God would surely require their blood at his hand.
Conflict is never easy, yet it is a basic fact of life. Personally, I've found great comfort in following Matt. 18:15-17 in situations like this. Going to them humbly and discreetly, praying for peaceful resolve and showing them some scriptures about this sin (I'm sure you already have them, but in case it helps at all I'll include some here): I Cor. 5, 6:18-20, 7:1-2, 10:8, Eph.5:1-17, Col.3:1-7, I Thes.4:1-5, Heb.12:14-16. And may I recommend reading these out of the KJV?
If they won't hear you, try it again with another elder or two, then on to the whole church. If they won't hear the church, then it's time to part company. That's hard, but that's what the Bible says. And if they have a problem with that, then understand that they don't have a problem with you - they have a problem with God.
Jan, I believe there's a reason you are getting pricked in your heart about this. This is a matter that cannot be pushed under the rug or brushed aside. This maybe as much of a test for you as it is for the couple in sin. And perhaps you have been chosen to be the light they need at this time. Jude:21-23.
Our first question has to be, what is GOD doing in the lives of this couple? Are they growing in other areas? Is this sin the one God cares the most about? Remember, our lives are FULL of sin, and we tread dangerously when we decide that a certain, pre-existing sin in someone else's life is the first one that needs to be dealt with.
Realize that fornication is a totally acceptable sin in our culture, and it requires an ABSOLUTE act of God to open someone's eyes to God's view. If you are harsh with a couple that is showing MORE commitment than many, many Christians (they are living together while Christians separate and divorce "legally") you may be undermining a relationship that God cares about. Also, remember that the biblical view of marriage is that it takes place when a man and woman sleep together.
Confrontation is scripturally mandated when a believer is "going in the WRONG direction" - away from grace, rather than towards.
These two are COMING to the group!!! They are moving in the right direction! I would ask the Lord to show ME what their greatest need is, which is probably not to do paperwork.
Please reconsider, and DON'T single them out by reading pointed scriptures. You will humiliate them, and they will go back to the cesspit, most likely.
The fact that no one KNEW this means that NO ONE has earned the trust of this couple to the level where they can speak to this issue.
At least, just based on the posted facts, that's my assessment.
Oh, and as far as being divided, it might be a good idea to have a missionally minded leader type meet with people to talk about what it means to live in a "mission field" culture. Ours is a post-Christian nation. We must deal with people, assuming that their values are the devil's values, not expecting them to already know right from wrong. Then, split the church into those who want God's will for this couple, and those who want EXTERNAL conformity in people's lives. Let the Pharisees start their own church, and move on!
posted
Hello M.P., I don't think anyone is speaking of being harsh with them. You don't have to approach it in that way. You can gently help them see what is right and what is wrong. Why not teach them to be obedient because they want to be obedient. Not because they are simply trying to earn heaven but because they have fallen in love with Christ and His righteousness.
We tend to think that only our modern society involved written marriage covenants. Yet, in speaking of divorce, Jesus mentioned a "writing of divorcement" with reference to Moses' time. (cf., Matt 19:7). And, speaking of commitment, what kind of commitment is involved in sleeping with someone while all the while you understand you have no legal commitment to this person should you decide to break it off? It is like coming to church to experience all the benefits without ever making a public commitment through baptism.
Speaking of external conformity-- not only talking the talk but walking the walk. In another post in another topic you said, "Read the Book and see how God wants us to live. Begin with that, and be obedient to the basics of what Jesus commanded."(a) Yet, in this post you end with "Then, split the church into those who want God's will for this couple, and those who want EXTERNAL conformity in people's lives. Let the Pharisees start their own church, and move on!" (a) cf., "New Here", http://housechurch.org/cgi-bin/bbcgi_hc/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/24/78#000010
Doesn't reading the book to see how God wants us to live and being obedient to the basics of what Jesus commands us to do result in external conformity? Doesn't the changing of the heart also result in external manifestations? I must assume here you are making a distinction between those who desire external conformity to the word of God through a heart change and those who merely want external conformity to their ideology.
But how are we going to know where each person stands in order to divide them? We can't read the heart. So the only way to know would be to ask, "Who wants this couple to do what is right just because it is right", and, "who wants this couple to do what is right because they love God." Would that be the proper question to ask? Who is going to admit to the first condition? And, why should we even attempt to divide the church? Isn't this approach harsh? Help me understand where you are coming from.
We had a scenario just like this in our church. I prayed for words and then I spoke to the gentleman. He was VERY receptive and immediately moved her into her own place and arranged for the marriage. Society had influenced them for evil and they needed someone to instruct them in the ways of righteousness. There were no harsh words exchanged and they seemed much happier to know that they were doing the Lord's will.
You bring up some good points of consideration. Unfortunately, these forums can only convey text; they lack tone, inflection and heart. What could be taken as "fire and brimstone" may be quite far from what is meant.
If you read my post, I'm bringing out scripturally much of what you're suggesting. Matt. 18 is a blueprint for handling numerous conflicts and even "missionary-esq" situations. Going to them on their turf, in love, led by the spirit, seeking to understand where they're coming from is a sound way of meeting these folks where they are. I've seen these kinds of meetings lead to Bible studies, prayer and the truth making people free. On the other hand, I've also seen these meetings mark the point of separation because they saw the scriptures and refused them. In all this, my point is that I'm not suggesting a humilitating confrontation. But this church is experiencing a matter that God may be allowing to surface now to be dealt with now.
I do take issue with a couple of things you brought up however. I disagree with the idea that we are a "post-Christian" nation. I believe this is a phrase that carries an agenda to promote a "post-Christian" nation. I don't know the exact stats, but roughly 70% of Americans believe in God and or gather in churches. Saying anything enough times (true of false) and people will begin to believe it and act accordingly.
I also believe that most people who live in sin know full well they are doing so. Some live in daily condemnation, others don't know what else to do or stopped caring. These folks need our compassion, our prayers and the truth. By walking in the Spirit, we will know how to be the examples we need to be so they will be saved. Let's keep in mind these folks are meeting together with a church. A church meeting has certain expectations. This is not a knitting club.
posted
I agree, that some people use "post Christian" as a means of discussing what "should be" to manipulate people in giving over this nation to godlessness. Others use it, for exammple the so-called emerging church to "fix Christianity" by taking its cues from the world.
I'm using it meaning "what is"... which is that the relevance of the Christian faith on the daily life of the average American is zero to slim...
"Devils believe and tremble". I be not the least impressed with the "number of Americans who claim to believe in God, or in Jesus, or in creation, or call themselves Christians" or any other thing. Like the Israelites before us, we've had some good things, but let's face it that the reason creeping socialism is taking over is because the People of God have failed to win our culture war.
I do not do business with anyone who has an ichthus on their car or business card. I do not expect to meet people in church who give a flying flip about the lost. I am ashamed, not of the gospel, but I am ashamed of being lumped in with most of the people who go by the name "Christian".
We had an opportunity to serve with the most strategic ministry in the world, and we are not there because, as the old saw goes, "Never make the mistake of thinking that the person you are presenting your ministry to cares more about you or the lost than they care about the next Seinfeld re-run."
Are we sending out more missionaries than any nation in the world? Yes, for yet awhile longer. Are most of those missionaries propagating a failed model of church that results in a church that is a mile wide and an inch deep? Yes, we are.
Of course, my suggestion for that pastor, with the church being battered is to accept reality: Jesus doesn't go there any more, and neither should he.
But there is plenty of discussion about that elsewhere on this forum.
I'm part of a knitting club, that is doing WAY more for the Kingdom and for the nation than any church I ever attended. When we obey the injunction to "work with our own hands" and to "stay home and mind our business" and "to teach the younger women to love their husbands," we are being the people of God more than when we gather to peck at one another.
quote: If you are harsh with a couple that is showing MORE commitment than many, many Christians
We really don't know if their commitment to each other is real. But it is apparent they have willfully decided to disobey God and are not committed to Him. They have simply placed themselves above His law. It's not that deep of an issue. Either we do His will or we don't. Post modern explanations of human behavior will always look for "deep issues" or personal reasons. But molly coddling sin is just that. No one said to be harsh to them. A simple conversation about the truth offered in love would be the first step. Forgiveness is available for them and for those who are hard in heart toward this couple.
quote:Then, split the church into those who want God's will for this couple, and those who want EXTERNAL conformity in people's lives.
God's will for this couple is the same for you and me which is obedience and righteousness. When we reject the apparent will of God can we expect Him to offer us anything else?
posted
I'm just trying to address that this is one sin in this couple's life, and if the church is exploding over it, then the church is not acting in love, and is not modeling commitment.
If we pressure this couple to marry, and we are not sure if they are regenerate, then we are encouraging an ungodly marriage. If we pressure them to "break up" then we are encouraging them toward even more promiscuity. If the marriages they see in this church are not impressing this couple with the blessing of marriage, then maybe the married couples in the church have some work to do!
Regenerate people change their behavior, based on what God is doing in their lives and based on His word. Unregenerate people change their behavior to conform to expectations of their chosen peers.
Most Christians do not have a biblical world view, they simply have a list of do's and don'ts.
I would like to mention that we had a similar situation in our faith community, and it was no time flat that the couple got married, after being loved and accepted by us.
The wife is changing daily into God's image, and her statement to my daughter was, "You guys didn't judge me!" We didn't have to tell her that we didn't approve of her lifestyle - she knew. What we did have to prove to her was that we loved her.
We didn't have to "judge them" - the Holy Spirit convicted them. We modeled the Way.
posted
I have been delayed by travel and election fever. We are a military family and our man lost. Still, we will support and pray for our new Commander and Chief.
Yes, this couple do purport to be Christians and the woman is more than willing to be married. We do not have 'membership' and are not sure how to regard them at this point. Expressing disapproval in humility while showing love is not easy but it can and should be done.
I too hold more to the view that we should model more and condemn less in these changing times. How to work this out at times--I am still at a loss. Others in our small group see things in black and white.Thank you for your perspectives and councils. I hope the outcome will be amicable and God honoring. Jan
quote:M.P. wrote - We didn't have to "judge them" - the Holy Spirit convicted them. We modeled the Way.
Of course our lives are the best witness but communication is a very important part of our lives and is very effective in clearing up any misconceptions if the party has a desire to know. By modeling the Christian life we condemn evil and unrighteousness at every point where we uphold good and righteousness. But gentle persuasion with words is not out of place. If we are agents of change, ambassadors of heaven, then in our words and deeds we will condemn sin. And, if we do speak out against sin we don't necessarily have to condemn it in another's life but can instead testify of how the word has cleansed us. The message will come across clearly yet gently.
While we may show someone the errors of their ways we must present them with a solution. That solution is Christ. The law is a schoolmaster to teach the way of righteousness and bring us to Christ. It was never meant to empower us to remove our own sin because our flesh is too weak. Nor was it meant to be used by us to crush our perceived enemies.
quote: Jan wrote - I too hold more to the view that we should model more and condemn less in these changing times. How to work this out at times--I am still at a loss. Others in our small group see things in black and white.
I like the example of Jesus with the woman at the well. He brought her to conviction by simply asking her to bring her husband. He brought no railing accusation against her but truly she was convicted by His holiness. Had another adulterous person inquired about her husband she would have felt no conviction. The power of the Holy Spirit to convict others by our modeling is also strengthened or weakened by our walk.
But on the other hand, John the Baptist was a preacher of righteousness and loudly proclaimed the sins of the people, even risking life to condemn the marriage of Herod to his brother's wife. And, there were times when Jesus rebuked and condemned the Pharisees openly.
Where do we draw the line? If I have the proper understanding I would say that we certainly do not want people living in open sin to stand as representatives of Christ's kingdom. By "open sin" I am referring to sin that is known to be sin and cannot be hidden. Yet, this too can be difficult to judge. For example, sodomy is definitely sin. Yet, a gay person who is not a practicing gay but is living a celibate lifestyle is no more a sinner than the thief who no longer steals. We don't want to condemn a gay person simply for "being gay" if they are not a practicing gay. They need encouragement because they are fighting a difficult struggle. Yet, what we don't want is someone professing to be Christian (like Christ) and modeling the way of death. Theirs is the worst influence for evil and causes many to stumble. It would be better that a millstone be hung around their neck and for them to be thrown into the sea.
quote: How to work this out at times--I am still at a loss.
One approach for this couple might be to explain to them that although they may have pledged their lives to one another before God and consider themselves married in God's eyes, our society may view it differently and we wouldn't want to cause anyone else to stumble by our example. Have them reconsider for the honor of their Father in heaven. Though God may consider them married and they may have sworn their allegiance to each other for life there is in their reluctance to profess their vows before others and have the witness of the state a certain blurring of the distinction between good and evil. It would be hard for many to understand how their situation differs from that of the heathens who live in fornication. I think if you present it to them in this light they will change their minds-- unless they really don't want to have a full commitment. And, there are scriptural passage to help them understand this reasoning. (cf., Romans 14; 1Cor 8; 1Cor 10).
quote: Others in our small group see things in black and white.
As for those in the group which see things in black and white. Well, this can be tougher. I sense a spirit of self-righteousness in this group which is so eager to condemn this couple in a harsh manner. I would begin by pointing out to them that they are sinners in need of grace themselves and that with every accusation they condemn themselves for they are professing with their mouths that they know the difference between right and wrong and it is as clear as black and white. Therefore, they are without excuse.
quote:Others in our small group see things in black and white.
By way of an aside, those who see things in black and white often attract those who do not. I know a number of couples like this. Carolynn and I, for instance.
John and Jan, do keep us posted. May the Lord have his way in his own way and time.
Yes some do see in black and white. Some with ignorant ideas, prejudice and biased attitudes. Then some with experience, wisdom and knowledge and a clean heart.
May we be in the second group and not the first is my prayer.
posted
I think it is critically important on an issue like marriage to see in black and white. After all, a couple either is married or not, and we know it is NOT God's will for us to get fuzzy about that!
While I do not consider it necessary to have state sanction for marriage, I do believe it has to be a PUBLIC thing. There are two dimensions of marriage (and this helps clear up certain issues being muddied by enemies of marriage): 1. The public recognition of a new family being formed. This invites public support and pressure, and is supposed to prevent abandonment and polygamy, or at least, prevent a person from unknowingly entering into a polygamous marriage. 2. The private act that makes it a marriage. There is a "clinical definition" that defies compromise. No amount of cuddling consummates a marriage.
Having defined what marriage is, we look at a situation like the above, and think, "What do we need to do to see this couple obey the Lord's will for them?" Especially, God wants us to protect the woman from abandonment by the man. From what has been said above, the Gentleman in the case has the attitude, "Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?" And, I might add, without committing myself.
We know that God's will is that they not act immorally. We do not know whether this would be through ending the relationship, publicly sanctioning this relationship, or some kind of time-out to make a good decision.
We do not have to compromise on our definitions of marriage. We do, however, have to think in terms of "How can we bring this couple from where they are to where they need to be?" Which is the same question we should have for every person, couple, and congregation, and of ourselves.
quote:While I do not consider it necessary to have state sanction for marriage, I do believe it has to be a PUBLIC thing.
We are to obey the laws of the state and government. Therefore, if the state requires a license and confirmation by a ordained or otherwise authorized person, and witnesses, we as Christians are to obey.
(I am not opening up a discussion on which laws are good, etc. so please don't go there.)
posted
Ah, you've been reading the KJV, again, haven't you? But yes, there too, we shall not go.
The state only "requires" marriage to qualify for certain benefits, I think. If there are any laws against fornication, they aren't being enforced, as far as I know, so I'm not sure they really would be considered "disobeying statute law" here.
So, if I prefer to keep my marriage as between myself, my God and my spiritual community, and not get in line for a "civil license" with the men marrying men,and the women marrying women, then I don't think we are breaking any law by preferring not make a covenant with the state.
If I don't want special treatment on taxes, on health care or in court, I'm not sure if there is any reason to have a marriage license, is there?
posted
Just hate it when people put the KJV down. It's history has been glorious and many on the pilgrimage have found Christ, faith, hope and truth in it's pages for generations. But if you must know, I use several versions of the bible, numerous commentaries, concordances, etc including the Greek.
As far as marriage, I was going by the various states laws which require a marriage license to be married. If you desire to live common-law that is your business. Call it what you will.
Fornication laws won't be found as state statutes. However God has a law against it. He also tells us to obey the authorities. Titus 3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work. We can't pick and choose which laws we decide to obey unless a law is against God's commands.
Here's a note from Matthew Henry: The Christian religion was misrepresented by its adversaries as prejudicial to the rights of princes and civil powers, and tending to faction and sedition, and to rebellion against lawful authority; therefore to put to silence the ignorance of foolish men, and stop the mouths of malicious enemies, Christians must be reminded to show themselves examples rather of all due subjection and obedience to the government that is over them.
Now, it may be your preference to disobey and create your own laws for marriage or anything else. I however will be an example for all, Christians and non-believers so none may accuse me and my witness is solid.
quote: tarheel quoted Matthew Henry - "Christians must be reminded to show themselves examples rather of all due subjection and obedience to the government that is over them."
I agree with this position. However, if the couple chooses not to obtain a license from the state then let them proclaim their vows to one another publicly and then refrain from saying they are living together. There needs to be some tangible way to distinguish worldly fornication from common-law marriage. And, some trust should be set up to care for the short-term needs of the weaker spouse in the event the couple decides to dissolve their relationship. That is, after all, part of the marriage covenant, is it not?
posted
Just a little humor there. Like Gene saying, "You've been reading the fan magazines, again, haven't you?"
I do not down the KJV, but there was a pro-human government slant that was deliberate and is very evident in certain passages' choice of words. While we are not to be scoff-laws, we must keep in mind that God was very angry when Israel asked for a king. That is not his will.
posted
Let us take the log out of our eyes. If this church has a gossip, an abominatiion to God, wouldn't this church then get rid of that person also. And, if a married man or woman has lust in their heart, they should be removed also. Just because it is easy to sin "their" sin why bring it forward and then make it a must 'deal with' situation. Anyone who has no sin in that church should cast the first stone. Is the sign on the message board outside No Sinners Wanted ?
Let Christ work in their lives. He will deal that issue in His time. We can't see their hearts and what Christ has already done and still doing. What they need from the 'church' is love and encouragement.
posted
If I don't have to be legally married to be a Christian then we might as well throw out verses on fornication(like 1 corinthians 7:2) People say they are "married in their hearts" so then why are they afraid of making the committment before a body of christian believers and the law of the land? This hair splitting is common of people who do not really want to do God's will. You can argue your way out of almost anything that is in scripture, but this is a first for me! I cannot believe people are trying to justify fornication! What would fornication be then? Paul wrote to Timothy (2 Timothy 4:3) that the time will come when people will not endure sound doctrine, I guess that time is TODAY. I have seen hair splitting arguments over other issues but this is a first. I guess nothing is a sin as long as "my heart is right". But if I knowingly violate the clear commandments of God, guess what, my heart isn't right!
Also I cannot agree with the statement to "Let Christ work in their lives" , if be this we mean to not confront the issue ourselves. There are many verses that indicate we should confront sin when we see it, but here are a few: Galatians 6:1, James5:19,20. Titus 3:10, Matthew 18:15-17 just to name a few. I do believe God makes a distinction between old seasoned believers and new Christians who do not know better (Luke 12:47-48). The people talked about here are apparently old seasoned believers, so there is really no excuse. We can work with the new people.
posted
That is good. The disturbing thing is that from the discussion above there appear to be a number of others that commit the same sin and do not want to repent. But praise God that the individuals in your group were meek to obey God.
posted
I do not wish to be misunderstood as being soft on fornication. Far from it. It is a soul-killer and a marriage destroyer.
We must, however, take into account the addictive nature of sex, the wicked nature of humanity, and what God's ultimate purposes are.
Fornication is a sin because it dishonors marriage, and twists the image of God in the people.
We tread cautiously here, because it would not honor marriage any more for the man to abandon the woman, nor for the couple to marry lightly and divorce, nor for them to be pressured to be apart and be celibate, only to have one of them fall into fornication with someone else.
The Bible had good reason for saying, Remain as you are when you came to Christ (in terms of earthly relationships). Not that we continue in sin, but that we conform to Christ wisely and step by step.
posted
I now have time to respond to a previous reply. We see two unmarried people living together. Its easy to see their 'sinful' relationship. And we can 'judge' these cohabitators, or fornicators. Yet a married couple next to them are ok. However we can see the sin in their lives. Maybe the husband goes home watches football and lust over the cheerleaders, or his wife view pornography on line. Or maybe they are gossips. Gossiping is also a sinful lifestyle. Stirring up trouble is an abomnination to God- look it up. Yet gossip is more acceptable than cohabitation or dare I say a same sex relationship. Yet sin is sin. This is where I say judge not. Can any of us say we have no sin in our lives.....no. So we all must be in a sinful lifestyle.........yes. So we can not 'cast a stone' at an unmarried couple in our pews. Christ did not say get your life together...get perfect, then come follow me. He said "follow Me". Then you (and me) together with Christ -the Christian walk- will work ou the Grace than He has worked in us. We don't know what Christ is doing in the lkives of others. You may look at me and say is he a Christian? But, you don't know me. You don't know where I was and how far Christ has brought me. MAybe not as far you think I need to be? Again I say judge not. We have to stop shooting our wounded and captive brothers and sisters. We have to love them, accept them and encourage them. I say that showing loving married relatioinships in our church and in our lives, and teaching the beauty of this 'one flesh' in God, will do more than demanding that 'sin be stopped' or else. We are to love and encourage one another. I am not soft on sin, just soft on people. I love those who Christ say worthy to die for. I believe that includes everyone.
Email this page to someone.
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Still, we will support and pray for our new Commander and Chief.
