I would appreciate your comments (bible verses included, please) on the subject of PREDESTINATION.

Is there REALLY such thing as God creating people DOOMED to be destroyed?

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Bible verses AGAINST the MISTAKEN interpretation of PREDESTINATION:

The Lord ... NOT WILLING THAT “ANY” SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Jesus said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that NOTHING BE LOST. John 6:12 (God saving up fragments of food –perishables-, but tossing away WHOLE LIVES –SOULS-?)

Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED “FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.” Matthew 25:41 (and the DOOMED to be destroyed?!)

Do NOT .. SHOW PARTIALITY. Deuteronomy 16:19 (NIV) (God writing with the hand and erasing with the elbow?)

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Such verses as...

For he chose “US” (not ONLY us) in him BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD ... In love He PREDESTINED “US” (not ONLY us) to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will. Ephesians 1:4 (NIV)

to my way of thinking, are widely MISUNDERSTOOD because of the mistake of ADDING TO THE BIBLE TEXT the tiny little word ONLY which takes us to a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY not taught by God, or at least, OUT OF BIBLE HARMONY.

Example:

God did not reject HIS PEOPLE, “WHOM HE FOREKNEW”. Romans 11:2 (NIV)

For THOSE GOD “FOREKNEW” he also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also CALLED; those he called, he also JUSTIFIED; those he justified, he also GLORIFIED. Romans 8:29 (NIV)

In the first verse, Paul writes about “God´s people” (Israel) “WHOM He FOREKNEW” and linking with the second verse ... this FOREKNOWING led to PREDESTINATION, etc.

But nowhere in these verses says such thing as WHOM “ONLY” HE FOREKNEW.

Of this speaks by itself the FOREKNOWING, PREDESTINATION, CALLING, JUSTIFICATION AND GLORIFICATION OF THE “GENTILES THAT ARE IN CHRIST” (including YOU and ME), but not specifically mentioned in verses like the first one.

In other words, Does the Bible REALLY teach that salvation is but a “CRUEL JOKE”?

May God use these initial thoughts to encourage His elected to further investigate INTO HIS WORD with the help of HIS HOLY SPIRIT about this matter.

My last word to His shepherds here on earth:

TAKE HEED THEREFORE UNTO YOURSELVES, AND TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you OVERSEERS, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall GRIEVOUS WOLVES ENTER IN AMONG YOU (CALVINE´S HERESY OF PREDESTINATION?), not sparing the flock. Also OF YOUR OWN SELVES shall men arise, speaking PERVERSE THINGS, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years (now more than 1900 years!!) I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Acts 20:28

If God proves by HIS WORD that this text was written with the inspiration of His Holy Spirit, then let´s make ours these words once spoken by the apostle Peter:

“I NOW REALIZE how true it is that GOD DOES NOT SHOW FAVORITISM.” Acts 10:34 (NIV)

To HIM be the glory,

Your brother in Christ,

Jose said>>>TAKE HEED THEREFORE UNTO YOURSELVES, AND TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you OVERSEERS, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall GRIEVOUS WOLVES ENTER IN AMONG YOU (CALVINE´S HERESY OF PREDESTINATION?), not sparing the flock. Also OF YOUR OWN SELVES shall men arise, speaking PERVERSE THINGS, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years (now more than 1900 years!!) I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Acts 20:28
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I believe the heresy (false teaching) that came in after Paul's departure (death) was not Calvinism, but rather the rise of what came to be known as 'Roman Catholicism'. If you study history you will see the early rise of the religion-legalism-heirarchy-sacrementalism system. Calvinism did'nt come on the scene for another 1400 years.

nol

The scriptural doctrine of predestination is NOT what many suppose (i.e. that God has determined BEFORE peoples' eternal DESTINATION).

The Greek word translated "predestination" is PROORIZO. It is a compound word PRO (before) and HORIZO (to mark out a boundary line). The second word is the word from which our English "horizon" is derived. (The horizon is the limit of how far you can see on the earth's surface.) So the scriptural concept of predestination is that God has determined in advance boundary lines beyond which men cannot go! Those "boundary lines" are the predetermined consequences that God has established for all of man's choices.

The word PROORIZO is found in 6 places in the new covenant scirptures. (It is Strong's Concordance # 4309)
Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before <4309> to be done.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he <4309> also did predestinate <4309> to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate <4309>, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained <4309> before the world unto our glory:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated <4309> us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated <4309> according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Predestination was demonstrated right in the Garden of Eden. God gave Adam and Eve the ability and the opportunity to make real choices of obedience or disobedience. But He reserved to Himself the right to establish consequences of those choices. Adam could choose to eat of the fruit of all the trees of the Garden that God provided for Him to freely eat. But Adam could not choose for such a course of action the consequence of death.

Adam could also choose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but he could not choose for that course of action the consequence of life!

In like manner, I can choose to board an airplane and experience the aeordynamic lift and thrust and travel thousands of miles at 30,000 feet in the air. I can also choose to jump off a thousand foot cliff but because of a different choice, I will experience different consequences!

God has given man the ability to make real choices which have eternal consequences and this is what gives mankind the dignity that he possesses. No animal has such an ability! But by giving men the ability to make real choices (including disobedience and outright rebellion against God) God does NOT lose ultimate control of His moral universe BECAUSE He has chosen to rule His moral universe of spirit creatures (angels and men) by irrevocable CONSEQUENCES. These consequences are the boundaries which God established in advance. Just a few of the consequences which God has established are these:
-You always reap what you sow. Galatians 6:7-9
-God will always resist the proud. I Peter 5:5
-God will always give grace to the humble. I Peter 5:5
-If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved. Acts 16:31
-If you follow Christ, HE will make you a fisher of men. Matthew 4:19
-If you come to Christ weary and heavy laden and take His yoke upon you and learn of Him, He will GIVE you rest and you will FIND rest for your soul. Matthew 11:28,29

Thus we discover that those who are "ordained to eternal life" are not specific individuals the number of which can neither be increased nor decreased (as many Calvinists have been taught). Rather those whom God has chosen to be saved are a specific KIND of people who have made a specific KIND of response to God and His revelation.

I Corinthians 1:26-29 is the key scriptural passage on the doctrine of election (God's choice of whom He will save). In this passage is revealed the KIND which God determined BEFORE to be bounded or hedged IN by His grace. They are those who choose to acknowledge that they are FOOLISH, WEAK, BASE, and DESPISED NOBODIES who have nothing of which to boast in the presence of God.

Conversely, the KIND which God determined BEFORE to be bounded or hedged OUT by His judgment are those who choose to claim that they have something in which to boast in the presence of God, their WISDOM, their MIGHT, their claim to be "SOMEBODY".

The word EKLEGOMAI (Strong's # 1586) "chosen" from which the word "elect" EKLEKTOS (Strong's #1588) is derived is found a number of times in this passage of scripture:
I Corinthians 1:26-29 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen <1586> the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen <1586> the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath <1586> God chosen <1586> , yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

It is for this reason that no proud person has ever been saved or will ever be saved! But many proud people have humbled themselves in the sight of the Lord and He has lifted them up just as he promised! And it is for this reason that a specific kind of people (the humble)were saved in Acts 13:48 and a specific kind (the proud) were left in their sins! An irrevocable law of God's universe is this: "God resisteth the proud but giveth grace unto the humble."

I trust this perspective on the scriptural doctrines of predestination and election will demonstrate that God's election (choice) and man's choice of how he will respond to God's revelation are not mutually exclusive. God has chosen to save a specific KIND, and any man may choose to become the KIND (the humble) to which God determined in advance to be the recipients of His grace! No man or woman or demon will ever be in hell because God did not choose to save them! "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." II Peter 3:9 Every moral creature who will be in hell will be there because they chose the path of pride and rebellion against God and received the "due reward (the consequences) of their deeds". Luke 23:41

Why did you choose to be humble rather than proud? If salvation is man-centered then I do the choosing of Him. If salvation is God-centered then He does the choosing of us. I cannot help but think that God begins the 'process'.

" O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor? Or who has given a gift to Him that He might be repaid? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be glory for ever. Amen" (Rom.11:33-36).

I do not know that I shall ever figure this thing out! I simply live in His grace.

You wrote:"Why did you choose to be humble rather than proud? If salvation is man-centered then I do the choosing of Him. If salvation is God-centered then He does the choosing of us. I cannot help but think that God begins the 'process'. "

Salvation is NOT based on man choosing God, but rather is bestowed on those who choose to humble themselves before God. Nor does God choose "us" in the sense that He chose Tom, Dick and Harry and did not choose Bill, George and Fred.

Rather than choosing specific named people, God chose to save a KIND of people and anyone can choose to become that KIND.

Scripture does not say that salvation is man centered or God-centered. But scripture is clear that "salvation is of the Lord." (Jonah 2:9) He is the one who saves guilty sinners. Scripture is also clear that the choice is ours. "Choose you this day whom ye will serve...but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15

God sets the choices and the consequences of the choices before us. He pleads for us to make the right choice but then leaves the choice to us without compelling us to obey His counsel. Deuteronomy 30:19 says, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

I wholeheartedly agree with you that God begins the process! There are many things that God has
done without which we would NOT have the choice to be saved! These things are demonstrated in
God's dealings with Israel. Had God not worked many things on their behalf they would all have
remained slaves in Egypt and none of them ever would have been made right with God. But all of the
things which God did to make salvation possible for ANY one of them, He did for ALL of them!

(1)He gave all of them faith (the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen). Having lived for generations as slaves in Egypt, the strongest power in the universe to them was Pharaoh. So God sent 10 plagues to demonstrate to the Israelites, the Egyptians and to Pharaoh that there was Someone in the universe stronger than he! But giving faith to all of them did not save one of them!

(2)He redeemed the whole nation (delivered them from bondage in Egypt). But redemption of all of them did not save one of them!

(3)He reconciled them all (brought them near to Himself from far). At Sinai boundaries were put around the mount so none of the people could draw near to God. They had to stand afar off. But a year later when the Tabernacle was completed and sacrifices commenced there, they could all come up to the Tabernacle court WITHIN 35 FEET OF THE MOST HOLY WHERE GOD DWELT! But reconciliation of all of them did not save one of them!

(4)He provided atonement for the entire nation of rebels once every year. Atonement involves two things which were demonstrated by two goats on the Day of Atonement: (a)the shedding of the blood of a sin offering to provide a covering for a sinful people and (b)the lifting up and taking away of sin by a sin bearer. It was these two things which allowed God to be righteously longsuffering so it was not necessary for Him to mete out judgment immediately upon the nation of guilty rebels. See Leviticus 16. But even though atonement was provided for all, it did not save one of them!

But only after ALL had been given faith, ALL had been redeemed, ALL had been reconciled, and ALL had been atoned for was it possible for even ONE to be FORGIVEN. But gaining forgiveness was an individual matter of one man taking the place of a guilty sinner and taking God's prescription
to receive forgiveness. See Lev.4:27-35 Provision was made for ALL, but NOT ALL chose to acknowledge their own need of forgiveness and utilize the provision God had made. The only difference between the forgiven and the unforgiven was the choice that each one made regarding what they would do with what God had done! God did not do one iota more to provide salvation for those Israelites who enjoyed His forgiveness than He did for that multitude of heard-hearted rebels who died in their sins!

In like manner, the Lord Jesus did all four of these things for the entire world!
(1)He performed 10 kinds of miracles to demonstrate that He truly was the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh. But observing miracles and acknowledging power did not make anyone right with God!

(2)He redeemed, bought, ransomed the whole world from the bondage of the Devil. See Hebrews 2:14,15 and II Peter 2:1. But this redemption did not make anyone right with God!

(3)He reconciled the world to God (brought them near from far) II Cor.5:19 But this reconciliation did not make anyone right with God!

(4)The Lord Jesus provided atonement for the whole world. (a)By becoming the sin offering, He is the propitiation for our sins but not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. (I John 2:2) (b) As the lamb of God He took away the sins of the whole world. (John 1:21) The "taking away" of the sins of the whole world is NOT the same as the "putting away" of the sins of the believer! (Heb.9:26) The taking away of sins is simply a temporary measure by which God is pleased to be longsuffering toward guilty sinners.(II Peter 3:9) It is also the lifting up and taking away of sin upon an innocent one. But when they die in their sins, (John 8:21,24) the wrath of God falls immediately upon them (John 3:36) and they are doomed for ever. So while atonement was made by Christ for the whole world, atonement does not save anyone!

But all four of these things are absolutely necessary provisions made by God FOR ALL without which NO ONE COULD EVER BE SAVED!

God does not do one more thing to provide salvation for those who will enjoy His presence forever
than He has done for those who are already in hell. Scripture is clear that the only difference is in the choice of individual sinners in response to what God has already done for all. That choice is to
believe or to remain in unbelief, to repent or to remain unrepentant.

I am no better than proud rebels on the way to hell, nor has God done more to save me than He did for them. Our choices certainly do have eternal consequences!

You may be right or you may be wrong. There are some difficult scriptures though, such as Jesus said, "But there are some of you that do not believe. For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father" (Jn.6:64,65).

I think our 'free choice' is limited by our nature. Our nature is 'fallen'. Thus our fallen will is inclined to coruption as Rom.3:10-18 says, "There is none who seeks for God". Unless God intervenes no one would choose Him. "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, he may give it to you" (Jn.15:16). As I see it today, the Lord chose me before I chose Him. I still exercise my will but it remains within the realm of His Sovereign will.

But then again how do I really know when it comes to this high and lofty doctrine. Perhaps with David I should say, "I do not occupy myself with things too great and too marvelous for me" (Ps.131:1).

You are right that I may be wrong. When you are convinced that such is the case, I will welcome scriptural correction to bring my thinking closer in line with what scripture actually says.

You mentioned John 6:64,65 : " But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the
beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I
unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

This passage of scripture does not at all create a problem with my understanding of scripture. As I
pointed out in my previous post, God has GIVEN faith, redemption. reconciliation and atonement TO
ALL so that ALL may come! If He had not given these things NO ONE could come!

Some also refer to John 6:44: " No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day."

Just as they ASSUME that God only gives TO SOME the ability to come in John 6:65, many also
ASSUME from John 6:44 that God only DRAWS SOME. But,as Jose pointed out in his original post,
such an idea would ascribe partiality to God! But John 12:32 corrects this erroneous idea: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

You are absolutely right that our sinful nature made it impossible for us (in and of ourselves) to choose right. But God HAS intervened on behalf of all! The facts of scripture clearly teach that, because God has given faith, redemption,reconciliation and atonement to all, the ability to choose is restored to all. Scripture teaches that all that is necessary to be given so one may come has been given to all. Scripture clearly teaches that the crucified Christ draws all men to Himself.

I would simply ask you, are you aware of anything that God does or has done prior to salvation ONLY
for those who will trust in Christ which he does not do for those who reject Him?

We know that there are multitudes of blessings that are bestowed upon believers when they are saved
and subsequent to the event which are not bestowed upon the unsaved. But does scripture state that
there is anything that God does FOR SOME IN ORDER TO SAVE them which He does NOT DO FOR
OTHERS?

I do not believe that scripture ever teaches that God chose you or me (as named individuals) or that we subsequently chose Him! I believe that the choosing that He did before the foundation of the world (Eph.1) was the choosing of the KIND that God would save which is described in detail in I Cor.1:26-29. Even the choosing of a son of Rachel before the boys were born or had done any good or evil was NOT the choice of a specific individual (Jacob) but rather it was the choosing of a KIND (the younger). See Romans 9:11&12 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger."

The choosing that we do is to simply agree with God about our sin (the problem) and about His Son (the remedy)!

Man's way is always to give preference to the elder, to favor seniority. But if God operated that way men would be able to glory in seniority! God chose the YOUNGER! Thus God's choice is always on terms that are diametricly opposed to man's ways! God did not choose Abraham and Sarah to be the progenitors of His great nation because they were young and fruitful and full of potential. He chose them because they were OLD, READY TO PERISH, AND BARREN! Thus when God worked mightily through them all the glory would be His alone! When Jacob chose one of Joseph's sons to receive the blessing, he chose the YOUNGEST over the eldest! God did not choose Israel because they were the greatest nation but because they were the FEWEST! Deut.7:7 When God chose Israel's first king, they wanted a king "like all the nations". So He gave them Saul who was the tallest by outward appearance. But when God chose a king according to His desires, He chose David who was the "SMALLEST" but who was a man after HIS heart.

If you or I were choosing players to be a championship sports team, we would choose a SPECIFIC KIND: the most agile, the most skillful, the most capable, the strongest, the most experienced players. Then, if and when our team won the championship, they would all shout, "We did it! We won!"

But when God chooses His "team", He also chooses a SPECIFIC KIND: the "paraplegic", the "mentally challenged", the "blind", the "deaf", the "maimed", THE DEAD! In fact, He chooses those who have never before done any righteousness and those whose entire "track record" is failure! But be assured, His team WILL win the victory! But not one of them will ever shout, "We did it! We won!" Rather, every last member of His team will fall at His feet and exclaim, "THOU art worthy...for THOU wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by THY blood out of every kindred, and tongue and people and nation..." Rev.5:9

Thus we see that God's basic purpose in election to salvation (that no flesh should glory in His presence I Cor.1:29) can only be fulfilled as God chooses the KIND that He does! To choose on any other basis would leave some with grounds upon which to boast! (For example: "God chose me and He didn't choose you! I must be better than you are!!) But the KIND that he chooses (THE FOOLISH, THE WEAK, THE DESPISED, THE NOBODIES are left with nothing in which to boast of themselves, therefore, "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." I Cor.1:31

But whenever God treats people differently, it is NOT out of partiality or arbitrary distinctions but rather as He puts His pre-established consequences into action based upon choices that those people made in their own lives. "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" was not spoken BEFORE the two were born. It was WRITTEN centuries AFTER both had lived their lives, made their choices and had died! See Malachi 1:2-4

If the things that I have expressed are contradictory to or inconsistent with any statement of scripture...where ever you see that my thinking is in error, I will thank you for your scriptural correction.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

Bruce that is not correct. If you could choose to be humble then you could boast of your humility. Election means that God chooses. Only God can do good. Therefore Adam could not choose to avoid temptation without God stopping that temptation. That is why there are elect angels, the ones who did not fall, and non elect angels who were allowed to fall.

Election is a root necessity to understand to keep from falling. However, election is not the only crucial doctrine. The Protestants watered down election by teaching legalism. Both in initial salvation when they taught that the law not gospel, convicted, and in sanctification where they taught that the law of Moses, albeit a modified one, should be kept.

That is why they promoted the Sunday sabbath and infant baptism. Of course the new covenant fulfillment of sabbath is Christ himself, not a day. And the fulfillment of infant circumcision is faith, a gift of God to the elect.

So therefore, there are doctrines neglected by the historical Protestants and Catholics that were essential to keep from falling.

The early fathers post apostolic also subordinated Christ. This eternal generation was kept alive by the Augustinians, of which Luther and Calvin followed in doctrine. But this is a wrong interpretation of Acts 13:32 and Heb 5:5 which teach that begotten refers to the resurrection and not the essence of Christ.

If one is boasting in something in themselves, they are NOT humble!!! But, that we can choose to humble ourselves is evident by the commmands of scripture, "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God that he may exalt you in due time." "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord and He will lift you up." If people cannot choose to humble themselves, why are such commands given in scripture? If one cannot choose to humble themselves, or to remain proud and haughty, how could God righteously hold any of us accountable for pride???

You are absolutely right that God chooses! But God NEVER makes a choice/election "in a vacuum" or "apart from any conditions" (as in "unconditional election")! Every choice that God makes is conditioned upon the purpose(s) for which that choice is made. When God purposed to elect His perfect servant Isaiah (42:1), His purpose placed so many conditions on His choice that "the field" from which He could choose was narrowed down to just ONE MAN in the whole universe! But when He purposed to save and call out from among the nations a people for His name, His purposes were entirely different! His purpose in that choice was,"That no flesh should glory in His presence, but that he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." With that purpose, God could not choose to save PROUD people! And for that very reason, God has said, "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord and He will lift you up." "God resisteth the proud but giveth grace to the humble." etc So God works to bring proud men down (He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.) Then the moment a proud person humbeles themselves before the Lord, God is good on His promise and He lifts them up, He saves them, He gives them His grace!

I wonder what your understanding of election and predestination are. What specific scriptures teach what you believe?

If only God can be good, Bruce, then no one can obey the command without the sovereign work of the Spirit. If a person thinks that he can obey he is diceived the the truth is not in him. Sorry, Bruce but that is the way that it is.

I have shown from scripture why I believe what I have expressed. I also asked you to show from scripture what you believe on the subject. However, you have not given one scriptural statement to show what you believe and yet you disagree with what I have expressed! I am willing to be corrected by scripture, but you have not given me any scriptural basis to change my thinking!

I have not said that any can humble themselves apart from the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit! Please read the preceeding posts! No one could be saved if God had not given faith (evidence)to all, none could be saved had God not redeemed all, none could be saved if God had not reconciled the world to Himself, none could be saved if God had not provided atonement for all!

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin of righteousness and of judgment, so there is none upon whom the Holy Spirit has not worked!

Again, Gary, I look for scriptural reproofs. Without such, I have no reason to believe that what you say is as you claim it to be.

I think you misquoted me! I did NOT say that, "all have been humbled by the Holy Spirit"!

I DID say,"No one could be saved if God had not given faith (evidence)to all, none could be saved had God not redeemed all, none could be saved if God had not reconciled the world to Himself, none could be saved if God had not provided atonement for all!

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin of righteousness and of judgment, so there is none upon whom the Holy Spirit has not worked!"

The purpose of the Holy Spirit's conviction of sin is to bring men to repentance. But men have a choice and many refuse to humble themselves and repent!

Regarding election, Ephesians 1:3-6 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

I wholeheartedly agree with every word of this statement! However, this passage does NOT teach that, "before the foundation of the world, God chose Tom, Dick and Harry, but did not choose Bill, Bob and Fred"! God did NOT choose specific named individuals to be saved, nor did He choose NOT to save other specific named individuals! Rather, scripture is crystal clear that God chose to save a specific KIND, chose to give grace to a specific KIND and also chose NOT to save but rather to resist another specific KIND!

I Cor.1:27-29 says:"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; nd base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence."

James 4:6 says:"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

So Tom, Dick, Harry, Bill, Bob and Fred all come into the world as proud, rebellious, sinners, sons of Adam's sinful race. God has given faith to them all. He has redeemed them all. He has reconciled them all. And he has provided atonement for them all. His Holy Spirit convicts them all of sin, of righteousness and of judgment. Harry and Fred humble themselves under the mighty hand of God. They acknowledge their guilt, their lost and helpless condition and cast themselves upon the grace and mercy of God which was demonstrated to them in Christ. According to His promise, God delights to give them His grace and saves them! God is not willing that any should perish (including Tom, Dick, Bob and Bill). He continues to reprove them, convict them, warn them of their danger, but in spite of it all, they continue in their self-centered lives, resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit and maintain their proud self-sufficient attitude. So God is also true to His word to them. He resists the proud and they are never saved but go down to a lost eternity in hell and the Lake of Fire.

They did NOT perish BECAUSE GOD DID NOT CHOOSE THEM! They perished because they chose not to become the KIND which God chose to save!

Romans 9:9-24 says the following, (every word of which I wholeheartedly agree with!)"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Notice that God did not tell Rebecca that "Esau" (a named individual) would serve "Jacob" (a named individual)! Rather, God told Rebecca that the elder (a KIND) would serve the younger (a kind)! Normally men give priority to those with SENIORITY, but God's election is not on the basis of man's wisdom in which man glories. ("I was here before you were!) Rather God always chooses to save and bless a kind of person (a kind in which no one can glory!)

Nor did God say to Rebecca, (before the boys were born), "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated."!

That statement was WRITTEN, centuries AFTER both had lived, made their choices relative to humility and pride before God, and died! See Malachi 1:2,3

Again, those on whom God determined to have mercy, and those whom He determined to harden were NOT named individuals, but rather two distinct KINDS of people!

God did not choose to harden "Pharaoah", but rather Pharaoah chose (in spite of God's repeated warnings, reproofs, commands etc) to remain the KIND (proud and rebellious) which God had determined to harden!

Gary, do you believe that God, before the foundation of the world, chose to save specific named individuals as such, and chose not to save other specific named individuals as such?

If so, those who were NOT chosen to be saved never had and never will have any opportunity to be saved and God's offer of salvation to "whosoever will" is FRAUDULENT ADVERTISING! It is an insincere offer!

However, if God chose to save a KIND, those who are foolish, weak, despised nobodies, those who are willing to humble themselves and acknowledge that such is an accurate description of their true estate,... then God's offer of salvation to "whosoebver will" is very accurate and honest "advertising" and a very sincere offer!

Whenever proud rebellious sinners "hit the bottom" and look up as undeserving sinners relying alone on the mercy and grace of God, God delights to lift them up, give them His grace and save them for eternity! Not one such person will ever have anything in which to boast before God! But on the other hand, not one person who perishes in hell and the Lake of Fire will ever have the opportunity to say that God never gave them an opportunity to humble themselves and be saved!

Your servant for Jesus' sake,
Bruce

I really appreciate your use of God's Word to back up your statements. The misconception of Predestination is also rooted in the misconception of 'Total Depravity' of man, stated by Calvinists as "the total inability of man to hear and accept the gospel, without first being regenerated (bestowed on a special specific few) prechosen by God."
While it is biblical that man can contribute nothing to his salvation, (For by GRACE are you saved...it is the gift of God) it is NOT biblical that mankind cannot respond to the gospel and repent (John 3:16, etc). The Bible is clear that FAITH is not a WORK. Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Throughout the Bible, faith always precedes salvation. Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

As you pointed out, the Bible states that Jesus has drawn all men unto himself. Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

God in his kingship has decreed and commanded that we must believe to be saved, and has left the choice to each person, so that all are without an excuse. Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.