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Here is a small excerpt from a book which documents the early church-life experiences of a small group of believers in the 1800's. It may be that we can learn from the past experiences of others. Since there have been several questions of late about Ellen White and the Seventh-day Adventist church, I thought I would share some of their early experiences home churching and how they came to be organized and the difficulties and obstacles they faced. I realize that there is much opposition in this environment to organizing into a denomination and I am not suggesting that you do. But I did think it may be interesting reading for some to hear that our current experiences may not be so different than theirs.
quote:THE INTRODUCTION OF CHURCH ORDER
Our numbers gradually increased. The seed that was sown was watered of God, and He gave the increase. At first we assembled for worship, and presented the truth to those who would come to hear, in private houses, in large kitchens, in barns, in groves, and in schoolhouses; but it was not long before we were able to build humble houses of worship. {CET 195.1} As our numbers increased, it was evident that without some form of organization there would be great confusion, and the work would not be carried forward successfully. To provide for the support of the ministry, for carrying the work in new fields, for protecting both the churches and the ministry from unworthy members, for holding church property, for the publication of the truth through the press, and for many other objects, organization was indispensable. {CET 195.2} Yet there was strong feeling against it among our people. The First-day Adventists were opposed to organization, and most of the Seventh-day Adventists entertained the same ideas. We sought the Lord with earnest prayer that we might understand His will, and light was given by His Spirit, that there must be order and thorough discipline in the church,--that organization was essential. System and order are manifest in all the works of God throughout the universe. Order is the law of heaven, and it should be the law of God's people on the earth. {CET 195.3}
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I am much opposed into organizing into denominations, especially where there is central control of the top down kind. Most all the older denominations had this set up and it has come back to haunt them in a number of ways. Besides that, it just isn't scriptural. It also defeats the whole concept of the unity for which Jesus prayed in John 17. It also defeats the idea of hospitality and fosters competition among churches rather than cooperation.
It must be admitted that many house church folk are just as sectarian as those in the denominations. Still, it's wrong.
In the church I was raised in, acute theological liberalism had infected the upper ranks and the seminaries. When our local church tried to pull out of that denomination they found themselves in a messy and expensive court battle over the building. Today, that church is officially closed and has a padlock on the door. They had become so dependent on the "mother ship" denomination sending them support and one minister after another, that they finally lost all initiative to do anything for themselves.
Paul, btw, became quite vexed when he learned that Christians were followers of men. "I am of ....." I am confident he would have also felt the same way about followers of women.
Is Christ divided? No! Should Christians be welcome wherever there are other Christians? Yes.
Yes, I am very aware of the aversion to formal organization within the home church "family" of believers. But our feelings and experiences cannot deny that God has always been very organized and has required the same of his church. We have many verses in scripture which evince these facts with many affirming illustrations.
One of the best illustration is the use of the human body to describe the church. Who can deny the interdependent synergy of the various components of the human body--how they work together in a most organized manner with cooperative effort toward a single goal.
And, the early churches were appointed worthy men with charge over the church to guard the doctrines, discipline the disobedient, and overthrow the false teachings of the wolves.
These things cannot be denied regardless of how man has abused them. There has always been, and always will be, an intense work behind the scenes wherever God's Spirit is working.
quote:There has always been, and always will be, an intense work behind the scenes wherever God's Spirit is working.
No doubt about it. But the emphasis is in "wherever God's Spirit is working" where a lot of us stumbled.
quote:Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
Isn't this a reminder for most ICs and even HCs as they seemed to forget....Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Instead of cleansing oneself and wait on the Lord, most just do it for the sake of doing it.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. The intense work behind the scenes to which I referred is that of the Devil. God's work is always out front and open for all to see.
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Hi Jeff, My bad for not reading carefully. Interesting that the phrase actually applies both ways.....I meant of human efforts and of the devil. I guess it's not how we organize, be it home church or IC, it's how we recognize the head of the church. Whenever we rely on human leaders, whether it's our intention or not, we are actually further away from recognizing. I would have a difficult time conciliating Mat 23:8-11 and 1 Cor 14:29 with Eph 4:11-12 if the verses at Ephesians are pointing at organization and offices. I can't judge whether God has ever spoken through Ellen G White, like the believers in 1 Cor 14:29, but I'm afraid many has failed to examine the whole picture she painted regarding the Belief - then and now. Augustine, Luther, Calvin - they all erred at one point or the other, and so did Ellen G White.
God is leading a people out of sin and separation from God into full communion with God. That progress is gradual but perceptible. Each great man/woman has been right for their time. Luther did a great work in his day and God used him powerfully. But we cannot expect Luther to have been burdened with giving the whole message in one generation. The important message that God put on Luther's heart was justification by faith, not of works. This began the great protestant movement coming out of salvation by works as taught by the Catholic church. No one can deny that this was of God and just in time.
We so often criticize the various denominations. But if we carefully study them we can see God's leading. The Lutherans, the Baptists, the Methodists, and yes, the Adventists. Each has a special message for their time. Each brings another gem of truth to light. I've heard some condemn Luther because he drank. But think of it. Had Luther raised his voice against alcohol rather than the false doctrines of the church would he have been focused enough to give the right message? No. I think God gave him just what he needed to bring about the reformation. Later, in the 1800's the temperance movement would bring to light the harmful effects of alcohol.
Whether it is time for us to turn-around and go back to the early church model, I am not convinced. However, I admit that the principles are still sound but in practise is where the model falls apart. The church always met together as a body, not fractured body parts here and there as seems to be the case in America. So I struggle with the home church movement in America when I look at it as a whole. However, individually, as home-units, I can see some redeeming qualities and benefits. I am not convinced that the home church movement in America is that organic. But I have not dismissed it yet. I am still looking for evidence that this work is of God. I have hope in that people are desiring to know the truth and are actively seeking it.
quote:Whether it is time for us to turn-around and go back to the early church model, I am not convinced. However, I admit that the principles are still sound but in practise is where the model falls apart.
Do you think all who came out of IC came out for the sake of the movement? Do you think they like chaos and hate orders? Do you think they are driven by their own desires and not by the Spirit? I can't speak for the others but for myself the churches I went to were so corrupted that I couldn't help, not that I did't want to, but had to leave. Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
I believe that a great many home-churchers are sincere and are looking for a better relationship with God. And I am convinced that a great many IC's are corrupted. And, I also believe that the call to come out is a call to leave the corrupt churches. So I am not sure why I am relunctant to believe that this home church movement in America is of God. Perhaps it is because I haven't heard many speak of coming out because of the doctrines of the church but mostly because of the heirarchy. And, I see them languishing on the fields and plains like so many dismembered body parts.
Revelation says that "she" has become "the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." Does everyone understand the word "she" to be their church or their denomination? What or who are the devils, foul spirits, and hateful birds? Is that the church members? Does this leave us feeling a bit smug?
quote:So I am not sure why I am relunctant to believe that this home church movement in America is of God. Perhaps it is because I haven't heard many speak of coming out because of the doctrines of the church but mostly because of the heirarchy. /quote] Well, the movement is not only of America. Our Chinese brothers and some others are doing that out of necessity. In America, sad to say some are out of pride. Doctrines and heirarchy sometimes go hand in hand... [quote]What or who are the devils, foul spirits, and hateful birds? Is that the church members? Does this leave us feeling a bit smug?
I believe it's about the leaders - same in OT, same today - who lead the sheeps astray.
The birds and foul spirits are in the hearts of the people who go to these "so called" churches, or what I call the institutional churches. The churches today are filled with people that are basically very demon possessed. It's it ironic that what we have been "told" all of our life is the church is actually not the church at all but rather the opposite of that. The churches today are filled with very very very demonic people. And this is what the bible refers to when it says first there much come a falling away.
I disagree with you Jeff when you say that God has used these people in these various different denominations over the years to bring just a little bit of light or gem to revelation. I see them as people who are able to learn but never able to come to the truth. You see it fits there description very well and that is why they are able to learn some things but never able to bring what they learn to the real truth. I actually see what has happened to the various denominations actually as helping the antichrist. Taking what they are learning and in the state of never able to truly come to the real truth they are setting up the last and final great delusion of the antichrist's reign. And everyone is getting sucked into it. That is actually what is really happening in their lives, at least that is what I think.
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Kim, These are very strong accusations. Certainly there are many falling away or going back in (like some among us) but can’t ignore the fact that every now and then some come out of her and see the truth.
quote: I disagree with you Jeff when you say that God has used these people in these various different denominations....
I believe many have brought some lights but just that some went astray after being tempted with pride and fortune. For example, Balaam in Num 22 and the old prophet in 1 King 13. Worse is that many of us idolized them and made them......denominations. If only we would examine like those Bereans. At a fellowship setting or house church where there are only brothers and sisters, we are probably able to do so. At IC, where democracy is the norm, i.e. the leaders are elected by the multitudes, it’s not that easy. Not too many has the humbleness of Moses and the courage of Paul.
Well, if people would just logically think about what the "falling away" is, you could figure it out. First of all it can't be sinner falling away, because there were sinners back in Paul's day. And sinners can't fall away because they never came close to Jesus, they have been fallen away from Him all their life. What was right at one time? In the beginning right after Pentecost, even though they had some problems, they pretty much knew the real truth. So the church was at one time close to God and pretty much functioned like they were instructed too. In order for something to "fall away" then it would have to at one time been OK. So logically what is around us, what do we know that could fit this description? What was something that was once right but now isn't? What was once pretty much OK but has fallen away?
People just think with minds too much with the mindset of what they have heard in the institutional churches. First of all most of them don't even think at all for themselves. Second they see things through eyes that aren't even thinking right because of all the false doctrine they have been taught in the ICs. With this kind of mindset people think the "falling away" is the world or the sinners of this world are growing worse (if that is even possible to happen???) or people are going spiritually wacko and leaving the churches. They don't even realize that the answer is really right in front of their faces. What was once OK and isn't now are the churches. And that is becoming very evident to a lot of us out here now.
What I say isn't accusations Chubbena, it's the truth. Jesus didn't speak accusations, He spoke the truth. The bible says the Holy Spirit gives us a sound mind.
I've come out of these forms of Godliness that deny the power of God where you are ever learning and never able to come to the truth. I know the life of going round and round in circles. And believe you me you can really learn a lot of truth (and true things) and still spin in cirles, never really coming to the truth. Most people today are doing that very thing, it's very hard to get free from that kind of life. Most are living like this in the end time delusion now. Why do you think all of a sudden someday it is going to hit them right smack in the face that something is DEFINITELY wrong. Then they will have to be beheaded for their faith at that point. It's really not a very pretty picture.
quote: I've come out of these forms of Godliness that deny the power of God where you are ever learning and never able to come to the truth.
It’s exactly what I want to say – there are Christians coming out of these because they learn and come to the truth. Not all, who are still in IC, are condemned. Likewise, not all who come out of it are genuine...
I know that not all who come out are geniune for sure. Some are coming out because they think it's the "neat" and "newness" christian fad, you know "home churching". There are a lot of people who will do it because it's just the newest thing going on. There are also some people who go into churches and help them get "cell groups" started too, that come from the harlot and really aren't free either. It is quite simple, Chubbena, Satan had us decieved in the churches and he would love nothing better than to totally destroy and confuse those who have now come out of the church. There is absolutely no doubt about that and he is trying about every conceivable way to do that. That is why it is important to do what the bible says to do now and not let anyone, anybody, I mean NO ONE deceive you by ANY means. We've been told we have the right to do that.
I don't have all the answers for those that are still in the IC. I normally just stay away from them myself. I know the years I did try and minister to them they absolutely didn't want it. They more or less treated me like I was something to throw down on the ground and walk over. I know there are some who feel called to minister to them, but I don't really see anywhere in the bible that tells us to do that, I really don't. I believe we each just have to do what we feel God is telling us to do. But the bible does say from such turn away. So we know that we are to turn away from them. I personally think prayer does more for them than anything. The bible says it is not by might or power but by His Spirit.
Until Jesus comes back and the great judgement occurs there is still hope for anyone. Like I said many will finally see that they were decieved during the great tribulation and will be saved, but what a hard way to go!!! I'm glad that's not my lot, I really am. Most are in a very strong delusion now because this whole thing is about over now. That is the whole aim of Satan at the end is the strong delusion that He is God and to deceive the whole world, so you know it is going to be one strong delusion. And it is believe me, it is. Those that are in it, you can't hardly budge. It's not really my job to budge them, that's God's job to do that.
It's a very interesting subject and it is fascinating to talk about it, I think. And to see how close it is getting to the end now, it just seems to inch closer and closer now every minute that goes by. I wish things could be different and you could get people to see it, but you just can't hardly. I just keep thinking about how the 2 prophets will minister in the end. It says they will torment the people by what they say. That's pretty serious stuff!!! For the people to literally be tormented. So when I think about that it kind of puts a perspective on things. We may want things to be one way, but that doesn't mean it's going to be.
The bottomline is that those who have loved light more than darkness are seeing the truth and those that didn't are in the delusion.
It is really very simple I sat in my church about 25 years ago and all of a sudden I was functioning in the gift of discerning of spirits and I saw the whole church filled with demons. They were in the people's hearts sitting all around me.
I guess that is how far the church has slipped in this falling away that Paul said would take place. I didn't discern the Holy Spirit at all, anywhere in that church that day. It just wasn't even there at all. So that is what I mean by a lot of people in church are very very demonic. It is a religious demonism. It hides and is easily covered up and the churches are doing a good job at it. At covering it up but some of us are learning about it anyway.
I guess I saw the falling away in a different way than what most people get too but it sure did tell me where I didn't want to be anymore and that is in a church.
Right at first I thought God showed it to me to help the church. So I stayed for about 10 years trying to help them. We got this little church started that was meeting in a high school. It grew from about 12 people to over 300 in about 6 months. And the people started receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. A lot of things they started to do different, before they would sprinkle for water baptism and in this new little church they started to immerse people. I thought it was really cool what was happening and then the pastor of that church took me to court and put a restraining order on me for a year. Something to this day that I still don't really understand why it happened, I guess God just didn't want me there, I guess. It was like even though I tried to help the people they would only go so far, they would only let God go so far in their lives and then they would stop Him. So the bottomline is that I really couldn't help them. They had to help themselves, they had to want to change and they really didn't want to. Even with everything new that was happening in that church, even though some were experiencing the baptism of the Holy Spirit they were still putting God outside the church. And I think God knew that and just put circumstances in my life to put me in a different place.
It's just incredible to me yet to understand that those people could have had so much but still basically rejected it. The bible says let the dead bury the dead. God wants us to move on to the living, move on to where there is true life. He called the disciples away from their relatives and told them to follow Him. Jesus must have known that many of the disciple's relatives wouldn't listen, He said let the dead bury the dead, and you come and follow me.
So that is what I've done in my life. I don't want to be around a bunch of spiritually dead people. It is just really easy to understand, just like the nation of Israel rejected God and kept backsliding, so has the church today. Nothing new under the sun, as the bible says.
quote:It is really very simple I sat in my church about 25 years ago and all of a sudden I was functioning in the gift of discerning of spirits and I saw the whole church filled with demons. They were in the people's hearts sitting all around me.
Why would the pastor put you under restraining order for no reason? You must have done something naugthy, haven't you?
Actually no, I definitely don't think I did anything to deserve a restraining order, that was absolutely ridculous. I guess the devil just got in there. I sincerely think God didn't want me there any more. Or at least that is the good that came from the whole situation is that I moved on and went on to better places and learned deeper things.
The pastor did try and reconcil with me but unforunately 5 months after the restraining order was put on I found myself pregnant. I was so sick with morning sickness that I couldn't do anything but throw up. So I wasn't able to talk to him. I think it was for the best because I've learned that once you have a restraining order put on you, you can not go and be with that person at all. Even if they agree that you can be with them and everything is OK, if the police find you with them, you will be arrested. My daughter knew of a husband and wife and the wife put a restraining order on the husband. Well, they made up and got back together and went down to the court house to do some business. And they arrested the husband and put him in jail, even though she was standing right there saying it was OK. So I was just very fortunate that I just stayed away from him for that year. The pastor did drop the restraining order after the year was over, by that time I had a 3 month old baby boy. And I did eventually call the pastor and talk to him.
I just chalk it up to that crazy church that we were all in bondage too. I really do. It seems to me that if you're like the rest of the crowd that the devil kind of let's you alone, except to devour you if he can and kill you. But once you change and have a true heart for God and you stay in those churches, you become the devil's target. That is why I do not recommend that people stay in any church, we need to definitely come out of them now.
It a wonder I made it out alive. The bible says some will be betrayed unto death and that could have easily been me. And I do think there are people that have been betrayed unto death too in the churches. We may never really know who they are, but God does.
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Kim, Thanks for sharing but I find it unbelievable that the pastor would go to outsiders and the court would allow that without any particular reason. The persecutions? It’s not only in IC, it’s in many so called Christian forums too. You know, like sheeps in the middle of wolves....
It's like something that happened to me a long time ago. This is not going to change anything so I should just drop it and stop talking about it. It just seems unfair that things like this can happen in a world and no one care or do anything about it. There are a lot of unfair things in this world that happen to people, but someday all will be judged. The bible says offenses will come but "woe, to those that do them".
Yeah, I'm about ready to say when you guys all finally get a nice group of people to fellowship with, let me know. Until then good bye, these forums are nuts. People are unkind and rude. I'm convinced that there are Satanist and New Agers on here right and left coming into christian forums. You don't even know who you can trust.
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Hi Kim, We, being human, just don't always find the right words to comfort and to encourage - and in situations like that, we just stand there and watch and sigh and come to understand how limited and helpless we are. It's not that we don't care, we just don't know how. At times we get so lonely that we are tempted to go back to IC and and enjoy some earthly fellowships with so called Christians. At times we are tempted to go all the way back to the world and be who we were. We are all so thirsty in the desert that many would drink sand, many would bite on the others neck for blood to crunch the thirst but we just might find some who would share the only muddy water they have left. Might not taste good but it'll keep us going until we find the living water which is not far away. So please don't stop...
Unlike some people I would DEFINITELY never consider going back to the IC. I would hopefully never return to my vomit, my old way of life, I certainly pray I would never do that. I would all the more gladly call out "Give me liberity or give me death". I'd definitely sooner stay out in the desert and die, I just pray God would just hurry it up a little bit for me, in His great mercy. Nope, me, I'm here to stay in this desert because for me Egypt was worse than the desert. I'd never return there. I guess some of us were just more unblessed in the IC than others, that too God has used for my good. At least I don't have a desire to return. The people of Israel wanted to return to Egypt because they had cucumbers there. My cucumbers were always rotten in Egypt, they weren't even good. I guess I was like one of those babies that got thrown into the water and drown. Like I said, God is able to work all things for our good.
Sometimes I don't even like talking about it, but I have to really think. You people would really consider going back??????? Not me. Do you know what is back there? Demons that want to kill you.
Sometimes I think you know if you really type these things, they are going to put you off the board. Isn't that sad? To be afraid when you speak truth they will separate themeselves from you? Well, I guess if they do it wasn't a message board worth staying on anyway.
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