quote:Rich 1 said: I like it! How about from now on I call you Rocketman? May I add Yes, you have all convinced me- the artificial word "church " is beyond redemption. It just carries with it so much garbage- doctrine and practice if you will. Think I'll start using Christlife center. That will allow us to promote the new/oldest vision of what a Christlife center is. More details on that when you are ready for it. Rich
Hey Rich 1, I moved this here because I have been thinking for some time about what to do with words we really need, but that are no longer usable (to represent to the world what they once did). I really think the word "church" and the word "christian" have both gone the way of the word "gay." The meanings are lost in all of the impressive buildings that stand to represent man's continued failure to please God...
The original Greek word is "Ekklhsian" simply meaning "Out Called." The Interlinear also has the word "Ecclesia" listed under the more pure meaning, which again is simply Out Called. I guess if we were to use our English of today, we could call ourselves "The Called Out of Christ", thus doing away with the word "church" and "christian" in one fell swoop.
I truly no longer want to be called a christian. Yes, even Rocketman is better! The word christian, to me, is as repulsive at the word church! I guess to some this is paramount to denying Christ, but I think not. If asked, I will no longer claim to "go to church" nor to be a "christian." I will simply say, "I simply fellowship with those who are The Out Called of Christ."
The truth is, I don't like christians ...and I really don't like church!
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Earth to Rocketman, I hear you. If we are ever going to make a fresh start, I say go for it. Actually, I like all people, I realized back in 1972, I feel the same things they do, I just don't think the way they do, if they do. So I guess I'm kind of used to the situation. It is nice to once in awhile find a point here or there for agreement. That's not aking for too much, is it? Rich
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I thought the point was to at least have a "standard contrary comment" there Rich 1. You getting soft on me or something?
By the way, the folks at the home church we go to call it just that, home church. I don't do church, and I also refuse to go to "church functions," and they know it! They have a "day of prayer" once a month. I've been to one. They have Sunday morning service. I only went once. They have a men's fellowship. I no longer go. The men get together for lunch every Friday. I stopped going. They have church, and I'm just not into that at all.
Sounds like you are really hurting here. Time to take off the gloves and put on mittens. I will tell you something that's been on my mind lately. I don't know if it is the influence of this cafe or God's leading as yet so I must move slowly. But I am considering migrating back to home church away from the IC. My spirit is telling me that I can reach more unchurched this way. But my reasoning is telling me I am not qualified to orchestrate such an affair. My home could not be opened for this purpose because my wife and I do not agree.
I used to have a great little church in California. What a joy and, oh, the fond memories. But there are one or two trouble-makers at the church I now attend and that makes it uncomfortable to be there.
It's sad when this happens but it does in this world. I never though I would be inclined not to attend church simply because of how I was treated. But it is very difficult because I know the accusation but I don't know my accuser. That puts me in the position of being suspicious of nearly everyone. Not a good thing. My problem, I know. I should not be going to socialize but to worship. Yet, they seem related in some way.
Anyway, I hope you can find your place. I guess we are not being filled by our "church" family so we augment it with our RCC family.
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You had on gloves!?! I just read the words, I never assume a mood.
Also, I'm not hurting. I'm healing! You see, I've found out that I don't have to "act" a certain way or do certain things to be pleasing to The Lord. As a matter of fact, I don't have to do anything!!! Jesus already did all there is to do.
I don't have to "pray for a day" to be holy or to spend time with The Lord. I don't have to sit bored and "listen to it" out of obligation any more. I don't have to be "accountable" to a bunch of guys who have no idea where The Lord has me right now. I don't have to listen to the men talk about what they think about this and that in the world today. (If you only knew!)
You are correct. This is a large part of my fellowship. I have one family that I have a dim hope in becoming true friends with ...the rest, well I just don't know yet.
Thanks for the blessing. May The Lord keep you and lead you as well! Oh, and one more thing ...and do not follow me.
quote:JeffL said: My home could not be opened for this purpose because my wife and I do not agree.
I think maybe she is sda too? Please understand that I do understand this one! I don't see how you and your wife can do anything much without agreement. A house divided and all of that.
Are you thinking of a sda home fellowship? How would that work? You mentioned church in California. What was that like? Did you lead it?
And I disagree with you, it is not your problem, but the coward who is afraid to confront you to your face. Consider the source, (they are a coward) if that would help! Can you bring it up in church and clear the air?
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Oh, Jeff, I'm sorry that you are having this hurt!
I'm dealing with several believers who have false accusations against them, and it is so painful!
In all cases, the accusation is unscriptural (meaning they are doing something that someone else says is wrong, but they are really doing what God commands, such as practicing hospitality and yet being careful "who you let in your home".) They are facing an accusation of "sin" and being patronized. It is so frustrating and hurtful.
It's possible something similar is happening to you? My contention is that "The Holy Spirit is moving out of buildings made by human hands and into the hearts and homes of men" -- and in the vacuum is coming "empty quarrels, vain arguments and envy", making "church" harder and harder to enjoy!
Does your wife NEVER have people over for dinner? Or is it that she doesn't want to have a church-y meeting?
Having people over for dinner, and allowing our love for Jesus to bubble up into conversation is really all we need to do to be the "2 or 3 gathered" Jesus told us about.
We'll certainly pray for you and your wife to be in agreement on this.
One of the reasons I am so pro Family centric simple church is that "it is a big enough task to get 2 people, such as a husband and wife, to agree on ANYTHING. The moment you add a 3rd or more? Fuh-gedda-bout-it!
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Jeff, if I may, I would like to offer a prayer that you and yours just be able to enjoy God's crazy plans for life together. I mean, June and I are perfict- ly unalike! She is the model of hospitality, of world travels, of a people person. Me? I am Mr.ultimate introvert. We talk about everything. If we happen to agree on something, its most likely just a fluke. It is rare if someone gets my sense of humor. Even more rare, she is so goofy, she is the only person who makes me laugh. Know what Im saying? Strive to be of one heart, minds are always flip floppin. Rich
My wife is Catholic and I am SDA. When you stop laughing (not because it is funny but because of the irony) I'll tell you that we met before either of us were attending church. Let's just say that you do not have the market cornered when it comes to prejudice against the SDA church. She will read her daily devotional to me but will not let me read to her. I attend her services often while she rarely attends mine. Her mindset is that no one can interpret scriptures but a priest. She has been raised to distrust anyone else.
My church in California was SDA but met in a home which was converted into a traditional church-style setting with pulpit and pews. A friend of mine was the lay pastor. We had great fellowship and I did influence many of our programs-- as I mentioned in another post about transforming worship service. My goal was to make it warm and friendly and to get many people willingly involved. We had about 70-80 people who would attend Sabbath morning and a small group that meet at other times during the week. We had people in the neighborhood that attended and studied with us, too.
From you earlier post I can see the drudgery of your church experience. Everything must be from the heart and not simply duty. What a burden it is to perform rituals without a desire to do so. The Catholic religion has many obligatory things. I am glad that my wife does not feel obliged to perform all of these but rather she wants to go, wants to participate. At least her heart is in it. She doesn't feel people should go simply because the church says they must.
Anyway, I covet your prayers. And, John2, "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months."
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Did someone mention mention that the same word for 'church' is used in Acts to describe a mob? The word was never a technically religious one, in other words. It got it's 'umph' from its modifiers - "the" or "his" or the church "of God."
Similarly, the word for "wife" and "woman" is the same. If we read of "his woman" we know it means "wife."
Me, I am not yet ready to abandon the word which was never a churchy one... but I understand the negative connotations felt by some of you all.
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Hey D. Anderson, Could you give me the incident you are talking about?
And you JeffL, That is fascinating. Catholic. Wow! I do know something about your situation. I actually went to Catholic school for a year (it's a long story) so I learned quite a bit.
I asked many questions during that school year, and found the priest could often not answer the simplest of Biblical questions. I then went to the monseigneur, and found the same problem. There is a very narrow area of "expertises" it would seem. I also learned that they omit the second commandment, and split nine into nine and ten. Just information. Beyond that, nothing.
I don't know if that will help, but it is information. As far as your statement, "From your earlier post I can see the drudgery of your church experience." You could not be more incorrect. The fact is, I really liked church. I was highly respected and admired by the church folk. I only got out after I found error in the King James, pointed that out, found agreement (and even more proof) and then saw the church leaders go on with "the traditions of men."
At that point I bailed. I had been "bored" and wanted more, and I had had one really bad experience, but that was it. I have just learned a lot really quickly! Lorie Ann is constantly offending my theology, (others too) as is the Greek Interlinear. I really like that, because I'm finding true freedom in Christ... apart from the church and what I have always been told.
I came here to share my newfound freedom, and to become even more free by learning from those who were obviously ahead of me! I have found, and I am still finding what I was looking for!
I understand you covet my prayers, but I really don't know what to pray. How about: "May The Lord draw you and your wife closer to Him, and to each other." Is that good?
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Matthew, the prayer request was for Rich1 who mentioned it. I meant to respond to LA as well about dinner parties but couldn't correctly phrase the words at the time. And, you gave me the impression your "church" life was drudgery because of this paragraph which seemed to be describing things you felt weighed you down-- in contrast with your new "freedom."
quote: I don't have to "pray for a day" to be holy or to spend time with The Lord. I don't have to sit bored and "listen to it" out of obligation any more. I don't have to be "accountable" to a bunch of guys who have no idea where The Lord has me right now. I don't have to listen to the men talk about what they think about this and that in the world today. (If you only knew!)
Do you see why in the context of your being here and finding "freedom" that I might interpret this to be an expression of something less than enjoyable.
Well, we should get back to the main topic as David has attempted to do.
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Of course, JeffL. Sorry. Enjoyable it is not! However, this is my current situation in regards to the house church I am going to, with he exception of the evening meeting, hence the topic, the Out Called of Christ.
What I am running into in the home church is not that much different than what I found distasteful in the traditional church. That's why I started this topic. I think we need to get totally away from words like "church" and "christian" in order to get anywhere with anything that doesn't look like church ...and christian behavior. My assertion in that both terms have gone the way of the word gay.
Therefore, I submit that the possible answer is to hold fellowship from house to house. I feel that this would eliminate "authority" outside of Scripture, and would also allow the return of much needed discipline in the church.
Having mentioned thinking about re-starting a home fellowship, how intimidating would that be for you to only meet in your home every so often, so your fellowship wouldn't turn into "the church in JeffL's house"?
quote: Having mentioned thinking about re-starting a home fellowship, how intimidating would that be for you to only meet in your home every so often, so your fellowship wouldn't turn into "the church in JeffL's house"?
I think that would be most agreeable to me. I don't particularly like the idea of hosting the group at my house each week, and especially not daily. But some don't mind doing so. In fact, it's doubtful I would attend daily.
But something you said earlier about this very situation did not jive with my thinking. You said if the meetings were at a different home each time then if one person messed-up the group would exclude him/her by simply not going to that house any more. But how would you stop him/her/them from attending the other meetings?
BTW, I would like to get back to the topic at hand if you can steer it that way. Perhaps there are some words that are just too misused to retain. But "Out Called of Christ" sounds too cultish, if you want my opinion. Why do we need a name?
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I continue to feel the best term was the original- follow THE WAY. To repace the vague, generic christian, with something so specific, so directed, so action filled, well, you can see the problem, if we continue unprepared to ACTUALLY DO IT!
My response to the Sabbath issue, and I know you are all waiting eagerly, is pretty much the same as all O.T./N.T. usage: the O.T. form the foundation, minimum requirements, if you will, the N.T. expands upon it many fold. By all means adore the Lord on the 7th day - and the 1st, 2cd, 3rd, etc. My Lord rightfully claims all days as His, all men as His, all works as His. Each needs do the best with all this as they may. Then try to do a little better.
I like that most here realize each protestant organization is simply Catholic Lite. ( yes, I stole it from Robin Williams) All much closer to each other,than any are to The Way. Tradition provides little to keep us going except sense of duty. God willing, this will change. We will change it. Rich
quote:JeffL asked: BTW, I would like to get back to the topic at hand if you can steer it that way. Perhaps there are some words that are just too misused to retain. But "Out Called of Christ" sounds too cultish, if you want my opinion. Why do we need a name?
Hey, why didn't you think of that!!! That's the best suggestion I think I've ever heard!!!!!!!! Lock it down, I'm going home! The end.
But something you said earlier about this very situation did not jive with my thinking. You said if the meetings were at a different home each time then if one person messed-up the group would exclude him/her by simply not going to that house any more. But how would you stop him/her/them from attending the other meetings?
That's the beauty of the simple model, Jeff. It takes place either by "invitation only" or by "people dropping by", both of which are fully under the control of the householder.
If we are meeting "on Tuesdays at 7 at L's house", then "wolves and thieves and liars" can come, and take advantage of the weak-willed or immature.
But, if my husband and I decide to offer fellowship to someone, we can decide on the when, who and how.
A side benefit of this is it eliminates, in our culture, the problem of "needing a permit to have church" in your neighborhood. And if the church is made illegal or regulated, it still doesn't affect us.
As long as it is "legal" for me to have friends over for coffee, the Kingdom of God can be at my house. As long as I have door locks, the gathering can happen in my home under a certain amount of my control. The frequency can be determined by how often we can agree on a time and place.
It can also be much more flexible in terms of not interfering with more important things. Remember the terrible hoopla about Christmas falling on Sunday a couple of years ago? It used to be that my natural family would just have to live without us on these important holidays, second class status to the strangers in my church. Now, I never have to tell my mother, "Yes, I know you need me, but too bad, I'm busy building Pastor So&so's Kingdom on Sunday." It just isn't as terrible for us to call our friends and postpone a gathering because some other more urgent need has come up.
Thanks for taking the time to explain it so well. I get the feeling that the air might be clearer where you live allowing you to see things more clearly than us who live amongst the smog of city life. Right? Wait a minute... Tulsa Metro?
You also said,
quote:A side benefit of this is it eliminates, in our culture, the problem of "needing a permit to have church" in your neighborhood. And if the church is made illegal or regulated, it still doesn't affect us.
I think it will affect you. I mentioned something along these lines in an earlier post and Matthew equated it with the church actually acting the part of the long anticipated anti-christ. It had to do with a church-state enforcing a state religion and demanding worship attendence. I drew my conclusions from historical accounts of early church life when the Papacy was just forming, the experience in England, and early civilation in the colonies. I believe that history often repeats itself and that it will again as mentioned in Revelation 13. The second beasts creates an IMAGE to the first beast.
Matthew said he would read it if I wrote it but I have been unable to locate the history books online which were my original source. It takes time to search the documents once found and I lost the links when I upgraded my computer and browser. Hopefully, it will happen, in God's time.
History records many times when church attendence has been enforced. Even in the colonies. Now you may think it won't happen in America or if it does it won't effect you. But I have news for you-- it already has. You will have to flee to the mountains and caves to avoid it because your neighbors will turn you in as well as your own family. Already there has been much progress to bring this about and currently there are efforts to further this work. Revelation says that the beast which speaks as a dragon will enact economic sanctions to enforce the law. You will neither be able to buy or sell unless you go along with their system.
Now I ask you, with all the troubles in the church, people leaving in droves, don't you think that most pastors would cotton-up to the idea of forcing people to attend church. These "merchants" of souls would profit from it. Who knows, they may even inact a church tax to support the system. They may call it "tithe." Funny, sounds like history all over.
Someone told me that while they were in Venice on a Sunday they noticed a priest standing outside the church in the sunshine at the time mass was scheduled. Seems the beaches were full but no one was in church. Church attendance is way down around the world. It's epedemic. Just as soon as they find the leverage to get a law enacted it will happen. They are just waiting for the right opportunity.
Of late it seems we have been having more and more disasters. I cannot remember in my life a time as this. Perhaps the people would not cotton to the idea of a state church now but what if the troubles get worse and mens' hearts are failing them for fear of whats coming? Then the pastors would find their wedge and make their move. Then they will remember this promise and use it to rally the people.
2Ch 7:13-14
If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
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Jeff, you make a very good historical point about freedom. It is a fluke that we live in a rare moment of freedom from religion,a period of only some 200 years. (Mass. was last to do away with its state church in the 1830s) The legal church is clearly the norm down the years. It could return. I hear many in the south say separation of church and state "has gone too far." Can't stop fools from saying any old thing! Back to the topic thread- such a development, sure would change our practical definition of "church." Rich
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Yes, you are right, in fact here's a heartsickening one: A young lady has her children taken by social services totally unjustly, and they have literally no real charges against her, so they make a list of ways that she isn't a good mother including, "no church attendance". Oh, yeah, because as product of public school and media culture, she's real likely to think that is important for her as a parent. She actually does attend church, but no one asked her -- or her pastor about it. She's a classic unchanged person.
When that day that "church attendance" of the Church of the Beast comes, I may go, and be part of the "insider movement". These days of de-toxing will be critical then! Absolutely critical that we KNOW what Is and Is Not required of believers. On the other hand, I may just choose jail, because that is such a great place of the kingdom of God to grow. Either way, I will see myself as part of a Resistance movement, not as part of the establishment.
This is a lot of what "churchless Christianity" in India is about. True devotees to Jesus may continue to have a family shrine in their home, and to look like Indians, but the core message of the gospel goes forth with Power.
Jesus said that his Kingdom would grow "automatica" . All by itself. It is reproductive. It is reproducible. As long as the gospel we are preaching (go to church 3 times a week) cannot faithfully be reproduced in Muslim areas, or in Apocalyptic times, then it is not truly reproducible, so it must not be the church of which Jesus said, "I will build it and the gates of hell will not prevail."
quote: JeffL said: Matthew said he would read it if I wrote it but I have been unable to locate the history books online which were my original source.
Just to clarify, I have never heard of the idea of the church and "christians" turning into "The Antichrist". JeffL, if you would want to kinda put this in a story form here, I would love to read THAT.
Hey, who knows ...you could be the next "Tim LaHaye".
Help me out here! I wrote something earlier about a church-state enforcement of church attendance and you likened it to the antichrist. You said if I would write it you would like to read it. I've searched to find that thread but have not succeeded. If you help me find it I will explore the possibility of expanding upon it. I think it was written somewhere in the Feb. time-frame.
Thanks!
Do you have any more to say about the "out called" of Christ? Such as called out to what or where? Or, called out of what or where? I like to hear you summarize your thoughts after our input. Did you want to explore this further?
Do you interpret this to mean called out of the church, called out of the world, or called out in the sense of coming out of their individual homes to meet together as a congregation? What then? The sense of the word also suggests an assembly, or congregation. No size is specified but can anything be implied about the size of the assembly? Such as it includes ALL in the area or region that are able to attend. Is there anything to suggest size or limit the size to that which can fit into a home? What exactly are we saying or thinking?
Was the term simply used as a word to explain something in ordinary language? Have we placed too much emphasis on the word itself? There certainly seems to be nothing here to limit meeting in either homes or larger buildings. God has always scattered, though, when those assemblies grew too comfortable or large.
Jeff
BTW, I am sure you are aware of this but Tim LaHaye was a fictional writer. So he had license to speculate. But only in a secular sense. His works may have stirred up many to search for the truth for themselves. Hopefully they haven't taken his works as truth. There will be a rapture but it will be anything but secret.
Help me out here! I wrote something earlier about a church-state enforcement of church attendance and you likened it to the antichrist. You said if I would write it you would like to read it. I've searched to find that thread but have not succeeded. If you help me find it I will explore the possibility of expanding upon it...
I don't have to look it up. You basically reposted it just the other day! Here it is again. "It had to do with a church-state enforcing a state religion and demanding worship attendence.I believe that history often repeats itself and that it will again as mentioned in Revelation 13...
You will have to flee to the mountains and caves to avoid it because your neighbors will turn you in as well as your own family. Already there has been much progress to bring this about and currently there are efforts to further this work. Revelation says that the beast which speaks as a dragon will enact economic sanctions to enforce the law. You will neither be able to buy or sell unless you go along with their system.
Now I ask you, with all the troubles in the church, people leaving in droves, don't you think that most pastors would cotton-up to the idea of forcing people to attend church. These "merchants" of souls would profit from it. Who knows, they may even inact a church tax to support the system. They may call it "tithe." Funny, sounds like history all over.
Someone told me that while they were in Venice on a Sunday they noticed a priest standing outside the church in the sunshine at the time mass was scheduled. Seems the beaches were full but no one was in church. Church attendance is way down around the world. It's epedemic. Just as soon as they find the leverage to get a law enacted it will happen. They are just waiting for the right opportunity. "
I have read all of the "Left Behind" books and have probably seen almost every "End Times" movie out there (Yes, even the one with Mr. T in it). I just think this is a wonderfully refreshing view you have, where "the church" is actually trying to kill those who are living as Christ would want us to. You see, "christians" always make those movies, so it is always an outside threat (read, some powerful world leader) trying to kill off all of the christians.
The only time I ever heard something similar was from a pastor I know who believes that most (if not all) of The Book of Revelation is spiritual allegory. He thinks that "the church" is the antichrist of sorts, as is our flesh (waring against the things of Christ). You just added an extra dimension that I (having read all of the Left Behind series) think would make a great (as you pointed out) fiction book!!!
quote:Do you have any more to say about the "out called" of Christ? Such as called out to what or where? Or, called out of what or where? I like to hear you summarize your thoughts after our input. Did you want to explore this further?
It would be a good speculation (I think you know The Scriptures for this one ) that we are to be "The Out Called" from the worldly system, or "the world" as most christians call it. No upward size or limit. As in Jesus day, the fields are always open, if there are too many folks to fit inside a house.
quote: God has always scattered, though, when those assemblies grew too comfortable or large.
Objection, calls for speculation on the part of the witness! Here is my speculation. "Satan has often got in there and scattered, when those assemblies grew too strong or unified. The Lord allows this, but makes it work together for good, even though Satan always means it to destroy."
This is what I believe, even though I can't prove it.
We've already discussed the scattering that occurred in the early church when they became too comfortable so I won't bring that up here. You can read it elsewhere in our recent posts. I think LA quoted her source and I quoted my source and both were in agreement.
Since we are somewhat off topic let me just quote another source I found today. See if you recognize the hidden agenda behind the writing.
Can We Solve the Sunday Dilemma? By John Warren Steen
Sporting events, like a greedy child wanting the biggest part of the family's pie, have taken over the focus of Sunday. The day has exploded into a celebration of sports. During the 1999 Super Bowl XXXIII, officials boasted 74,803 fans who were present in the stadium, 83.7 million TV viewers who watched the entire game, and an additional 43.8 million viewers who watched part of the game. Incidentally, Sunday night services were canceled in unnumbered churches, and the one I attended had only six members in the congregation.
Again,
quote: No Sunday - No God Professor Verna Wright Web Link
"Before you get rid of the Christian's God, you must first get rid of the Christian's day", exclaimed Voltaire, the French sceptic. The cry of 'No Sunday' is only a stepping stone to that of 'No God'. It is little wonder we are witnessing a concerted, vicious attack by humanists on this divine institution. Few could deny that with the demise of our Sunday Schools, we have seen a rise in violent anarchy, perpetrated not only by mindless football hooligans, but by well-heeled yuppies in Tory shires.
'Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people' is now seen to be more than a Biblical quotation on a Wayside Pulpit. It is being out-worked before our eyes. Murder by the million (in abortion on demand), epidemic venereal diseases and HIV/AIDS in our permissive age, and breakdown of discipline in classroom, home and society, are all chickens which have come home to roost. God's laws are not the needless restrictions of a despot, but the provision of a loving Creator. He made us, and He knows what is best for us. That is why all His commandments make good sociological sense, as well as providing us the best spiritual discretion.
Tragically, Sunday has become a fun day. Pews, once full, have been replaced by queues.
Do you see that they are leaning toward enforcing church attendance to cure the sinfulness of man and to fill the pews?
This is the same thing that happened in the early days of the Bishops of Rome and they used a similar argument to get the civil powers to enforce a Sunday church-attendance day. Their first step was to stop work. But then the people played. The next step was to stop the theatre. But then the people drank and got rowdy. I think you can see how it was a small step to convince the authorities that people needed to go to church.
I hope to find my source soon. It was in a history book about the church. Consider this a first installment to my new "novel." When I get more I will start a new topic.
Hey John 2, would forced Sunday observance qualify as legalism?
quote:JeffL asked: Do you see that they are leaning toward enforcing church attendance to cure the sinfulness of man and to fill the pews?
Boo ho! I think they should call the waaaambulance! The thing is, the church is pretty much looked at like a joke today. Christians are thought of a ignorant, superstitious stupid old men and women... or simpleminded children.
The fact is, evolutionary science has left most christians with nothing but their "ignorant faith" in a universe that was created by chance. I'm really interested in how you suppose these "simpleminded religious fools" are going to convince such an intellectual world to pass such ignorant laws?
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By definition yes. However i don't think it's wrong to encourage brethren to meet together. You just can't impose the standard by which the brethren do the meeting. The Lord is over his church. We must please God and not men.
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If The Presence of The Lord is there, and needs are being met... your "encouragement" John 2, would not be needed. The Lord is not "over" the church, men are.
Oh, and JeffL... I now see just what you mean! Maybe we aren't that far away from this "supposition" (at least in the christian community) as I thought! Scary!!!
Hey John, well said. Encourage to do but not how to do.
Hey Matthew, the Christian faith is the most intellectual science in our world. Man's greatest wisdom pales in comparison to the foolishness of God. Unfortunately, you are correct in your assessment. Christians do seem to have become simple-minded, superstitious, and appear to follow an ignorant faith. But they have received in proportion to their investment.
Regarding evolutionary science. It is a greater leap of faith to believe in evolution than creation. Evolutionists claim they have scientific fact but truthfully it is still a theory which has few answers. Its converts hold that nothing used nothing to make something. But since they reject God it is the best solution they have going.
Now to your other question. "I'm really interested in how you suppose these 'simpleminded religious fools' are going to convince such an intellectual world to pass such ignorant laws?" Here is my take on it.
An acquaintance of mine spent some time aboard a ship operated as a school. People of various religious orientations were on board. Buddhist, Atheists, Christians, etc. One night they had a terrible storm. It was so bad that he said everyone was praying to God-- even the atheist. Peculiar, yes, but true. When things get bad enough we all turn to something, someone, outside of ourselves for help. Very few do not. I'll try to develop this picture more fully once I gather more data.
posted
Hey JeffL, I can't believe you agree with John 2 that we should be "encouraged" to go to church! Is not this type of "encouragement" the first step in your conspiracy theory.
Also, please don't misunderstand me. I have debated "Special Creation" internationally on BBSs years ago. I could always smoke any jack evolutionist, no problem. The problem is, many "sciences" are called theory. Take "the germ theory" for example. The truth is, they have to keep evolution, or redo all of "science" as we know it!
So, my example is the germ theory. Is there any doubt that there are germs!?! But what do they still call it? Theory! Why? Because "true science" is built on the "evolutionary theory", period. This fact alone makes it a great leap (in my mind at least) for a "rational" world to jump strait into a "mystic" one with open arms. (Have you ever read "The Bible Code"?) There is mathematical proof that parts of The Old Testament were written by an all knowing mind. Mathematical proof!!! Still the scientific community stands behind evolution...
Yes, I understand that dire situations drive folks to "prayer," and to church, (I remember September 11) but how long did that last? One week, maybe two? My question is, what would it take for the world to force itself into church? Maybe god himself (I left that uncapitalized on purpose) showing up?
Hey, that may just be it, by dingies! Make this believable, and you have yourself that fiction book I want to read!!!
So, my example is the germ theory. Is there any doubt that there are germs!?! But what do they still call it?
Matthew
Actually, I don't believe in "germ theory" Matthew. I'm thinking maybe the family member you told me about doesn't exactly believe in germ theory either?
quote:Originally posted by Matthew: Yes, I understand that dire situations drive folks to "prayer," and to church, (I remember September 11) but how long did that last?
Matthew
This is an excellent example, Matthew. Foxhole Christianity doesn't last - and Jesus made it clear that he wasn't interested in being anyone's disaster insurance.
John the disciple, I believe it was, said something about it being better to have never com to the Lord than to turn and then turn away. That is a serious consideration when we encourage people to "go to church" rather than to "repent and be saved".
posted
Actually, 9/11 has had many lasting effects. We have lost many freedoms. I am shocked as to how much people are willing to give up just to feel safe. I am thinking of one that really concerns me. That a person can be thrown in jail and kept there for years without a trial simply because of suspicions. What about allowing prisoners to be tortured? Wire tapping? Airport searches? Who is complaining while we become a police state?
Matthew, John was encouraging people to 'meet together' not to go to a church building.
LA, don't you think people often encourage others to "go to church" because they can't find the time or don't know how to lead them to Christ themselves?
Matthew, there are better reasons proving the Supreme authorship of the Bible than mere mathematics. I am thinking of the prophecies of Daniel which laid out the world kingdoms from Babylon to Persia to Greece to Rome to the divided kingdoms. And the most amazing prophecy in Daniel 9 which tells the exact year and season in which the Messiah would be baptized and crucified.
LA, you said Foxhole Christianity doesn't last and evidence proves you to be correct. Do you believe in the "second chance" theory of the secret rapture which has those left behind going through great tribulation? Isn't that simply imploring the same principles as Foxhole Christianity? What if the tribulation occurs while "the church" is on earth? Now that would prove of value to shake out the Foxhole Christians and would also establish my "theory" regarding a church-state religion.
Remember, the Jewish leaders convinced the Romans to crucify Christ, someone they declared innocent. The Papacy ruled the world for over 1000 years. They set up kings and disposed them. They used civil powers to punish moral sins. They used armies to coerce converts. If this was the 1st beast in Revelation 13 then the image to the beast will look a lot like it. (Yes, sorry! I didn't originate the idea. I think scripture is pretty clear who the 1st beast is. Just carefully read Revelation 12 and the first few verses of chapter 13 paying close attention to who the dragon is and what he does and whom he works through to do it.)
And, few more points. The churches are vying for that enviable position of being the one, true, universal church. The Catholic church already claims that title. The churches are enlarging their circle of influence and converts by catering to the worldly by representing Christ as more tolerant of sin and truth a relative instead of absolute. False religion is not very threatening to the carnal nature. The world is becoming more "spiritual" having a form of godliness but denying God. Perhaps the worldly and "the church" are growing closer together in their viewpoints of how to correct the evils of our time. There will be a few hold-outs but majority rules.
posted
Wow, so much going on today! Where to begin...?
quote:Laurie Ann said: Actually, I don't believe in "germ theory" Matthew. I'm thinking maybe the family member you told me about doesn't exactly believe in germ theory either?
No, he believes in germ fact. There are good ones and bad ones. We need the good ones to live a healthy life!
quote:Then JeffL said: Actually, 9/11 has had many lasting effects.
quote:However, Laurie Ann also said: Jesus made it clear that he wasn't interested in being anyone's disaster insurance.
Which was my point... so I must be doing okay, because she understood perfectly!
quote:JeffL also said: Matthew, John was encouraging people to 'meet together' not to go to a church building.
Again, I stand by my assertion that "encouragement" should not be needed "to go to church!" And see, you do it too! I said NOTHING about a building. "Church" to me is christian's getting together, either by will, coercion, or force.
quote:JeffL then said: Matthew, there are better reasons proving the Supreme authorship of the Bible than mere mathematics.
Within the scientific community, I totally disagree! You can't use The Bible to prove The Bible... they just laugh at that, as expected!
quote:JeffL said: Matthew, The Catholic church already claims that title.
I understand that, but the problem is... "EVERYONE" [this is a generality of course] thinks they are the only ones that have a totally clear picture of God. All [honest] churches, although they don't necessarily believe "everyone is going to hell but us," do believe that they have a corner on "the truth".
quote:JeffL also said: The world is becoming more "spiritual" having a form of godliness but denying God. The churches are enlarging their circle of influence and converts by catering to the worldly by representing Christ as more tolerant of sin and truth a relative instead of absolute.
Which brings us back to "the world" coming after the church in the last days, and destroying it (howbeit slowly) and not "the church" coming after the true Out Called. (How's that for getting back to topic?)
We get confused here with regard to how the writer is using the word church. I know I do. Your last post is a bit confusing in that respect. Your last sentence used 'church' and '"the church'". I understand the use of "the true Out Called" and perhaps '"the church"' but I am not sure, especially now, what you mean by simply 'the church' (unquoted).
I thought for sure you meant church, as in IC, when you wrote this:
quote:"Hey JeffL, I can't believe you agree with John 2 that we should be "encouraged" to go to church! Is not this type of "encouragement" the first step in your conspiracy theory."
My theory involves encouragement through legislation to attend church, as in the IC. So we failed to mesh gears that time.
Regarding the world coming after the church in the last days and destroying it. I believe it will be people who think they are doing God's will. Misguided, yes, but nevertheless sincere and zealous. I'm thinking of the Jews, Saul, the Inquisition, and others down through the years who professed to know Christ and yet persecuted those who did not agree with them in faith.
Well, I've offended just about everyone now. Wow! Guess I'll take some time to reflect on what everyone else has said and where I want to go from here.
posted
Regarding "GERM THEORY." We should have been aware of germs long before Pasteur and Lister and such. The Bible spoke of many of these.
1. Contamination and Contagious disease-- Lev 15:4-12 2. Quarantine -- Lev 13:46-52 3. Unhealthy houses -- Lev 14:45-47 4. bodily fluids -- Deut 23:10-11 5. sanitation -- Deut 23:12-13 6. foods -- Lev 20:24-25 8. vessels -- Lev 11:32-33
and, washing of person and clothes, touching animals that die of their own, etc.
But I guess we didn't think it was important or that perhaps these laws were just for the Jews. Our loss. But the Lord was very patient with us and since we didn't believe His written word He still had compassion on us and taught us through science. But how many had to die or lose limbs because of our stubborn disobedience?
quote:JeffL said: Hey Matthew, We get confused here with regard to how the writer is using the word church.
No, I'm not confused. Here is the way you will always be able to tell what I'm talking about (at least). All you have to do is see what I capitalize and you will always know what I'm talking about. I capitalize words to show respect. If I say God, Him, The Church, The Word, The Bible, then I'm talking about "The Real Thing." It's just that simple.
Also, I think you underestimate the extent to which I speak. I NEVER think ANYONE should be "encouraged" to go to church, or to The Church! Like I commented the very first time, if The Lord shows up, and is allowed to do what He wants, encouragement would never be needed. Ever hear of Evan Roberts and the events surrounding the 1904 Welsh Revival? Now that's something like what I'm talking about!
In regards to the germ theory, I think folks would be more inclined to listen to those who claim The Bible as The Truth, if there were not so many folks out there saying things like "the world is flat", "the universe revolves around the earth" ...and I had better stop before I start offending!
Email this page to someone.
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The word christian, to me, is as repulsive at the word church! I guess to some this is paramount to denying Christ, but I think not. If asked, I will no longer claim to "go to church" nor to be a "christian." I will simply say, "I simply fellowship with those who are The Out Called of Christ."![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
...and I really don't like church! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Wait a minute... Tulsa Metro? 
