quote:JeffL asked: But something you said earlier about this very situation did not jive with my thinking. You said if the meetings were at a different home each time then if one person messed-up the group would exclude him/her by simply not going to that house any more. But how would you stop him/her/them from attending the other meetings?
Okay, this is easy to answer. Jesus said it best, and it is recorded in Matthew 18:15-17 "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican."
First, let me say I'm sorry for the KJV, but step by step the situation is dealt with until the whole fellowshipping body stays away from this person. That way everything is out in the open, and the one being "disciplined" is able to see that the whole fellowship is standing together.
An example? 1 Cor. 5:4-13 "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus... [skipped for brevity] ...But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judges. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
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Yes, that part is easy. . . "not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner." But in the context of my original question I was asking about someone, like myself, perhaps, whose beliefs don't perfectly align with the group. I feel I am perfectly Biblical but you may feel otherwise. How would I be treated? Would I be considered a "wolf" in sheep's clothing? Someone to be excluded?
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I don't see why. There is a guy at the home church here that is very "unorthodox" in many of his beliefs. I know, because he teaches! I just love his "fresh" ideas (they are fresh to me anyway).
I really like to hear things (even "weird" things) that I have never heard before, especially if someone can build a good case for it! People that now who they are, are not intimidated by others.
There is no problem with having differing ideas and convictions than others have. This was obviously the case, even in The New Testament. Being like minded does not mean that you can't disagree with others, it just means that everyone is open to learn, listen, speak, and grow... I believe the house to house to house etc... may best allow this type of growth.
Having said all of that, I say... I think the only example we have in Scripture of this type of exclusion is for the reason of some type of sin or overt evil.
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I was just thinking that one of the many reasons I love Ralph Winter of the USCWM so much is that he always draws back and asks "Are we asking the right question here?"
That leads to unorthodoxy for certain.
So often our questions are loaded with assumptions, like when people ask "home schoolers about socialization". There are so many egregious assumptions there, not the least of which is that children get socialized at school, in any sense other than pathological.
So questions like, "Where will we go to church?" (no where) "Who will be in charge?" (no one) "What about the children?" (let's parent them) are all loaded with institution-as-normal as the pre-supposition. "Even "who will support me on the mission field" is a phenomenally closed way of looking at how God wants the nations to hear his message.
I think any believer really needs to fill their day with that kind of question, asking it in the light of the Word and with openness to the Holy Spirit: "Why am I doing this? Am I asking the right questions? Is there a better way to accomplish God's will for my life? What is being sacrificed in doing it the world's way? and perhaps most importantly, "Is this loving?"
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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Thank you Laurie Ann and Mathew- I needed to hear all that again! I guess I am still in the process of detox. It helps especially to be reminded that we need to be asking the right questions. Maybe when I feel like God is silent it is because I am asking the wrong question?
Thank you too, Rich, for reminding me in another thread to keep seeking the Lord for guidance- I do belive He lives within me and will guide me, even if I don't completely understand where He is taking me or what sort of results He is leading me to.
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Again? Rats, I thought I was making all of this stuff up on the fly! It's amazing to me how far we seem to have fallen from the Biblical example in Acts.
I guess the reason I am looking for something even MORE different is because the "house church" we go to has been "together" for at least eight years. We are the newcomers with no influence (unless we agree with one of the leaders) on anything.
I understand that trust, etc. must be built, but how can that happen in a "church" atmosphere? The truth is, the "church" folk (just across the street) were much more open toward us than this bunch has been! They just seem to be a "midwife-hiring,-baby-dropping,-home-school" click.
Like I said before, if there was some place better to go, I would.
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I don't want to become that house church that you have experienced, Mathew!!! Keep talking so that my spirit can stay sensitive to where I don't want to go! I just talked with a friend of mine that goes to a bg church that asked me how house church was going. I said good, in a hard and messy way. But I so don't want to go back to the religous box of big church! participation is messy- it is now and it was in the pages of the new testament! It can be a struggle when the only expert is God- and no person is claiming to have any more direct access to Him than anyone else!
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Most men take pride in their intellect (what they know). Most women take pride in being pretty (how they appear). Most christians take pride in their Biblical knowledge and their christian appearance. There is probably a book here somewhere!
I have an idea, let's stop acting like we are better than the next person because we are "smart and pretty" and start treating others the way we want to be treated! No, wait... That sounds familiar!
I just think the church has its official "know it alls" and then everyone else. What ever happened to "beside calling," "beside sharpening," and "on together leading"? Well, I'll tell you. The words for all of that are now just "the assembling." How sad.
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Jeanne, how is the messiness going there? I'd say it is going pretty well here. People are reading books like "Boundaries" having discussions about whether to run back to church or not, and trying to drill down to the biblical perspective on our relationships.
I have experienced such "siftings of the saints" many times in my life, but this is the first time that I have felt such peace that when it all comes out in the wash, it will be a resifting that benefits everyone, rather than a process that "orphans" families that didn't fit in with the group. We are trying to keep it all loose and flexible, so that when it is all done, we can still invite one another to family events, special occasions. So far, so good.
We didn't "join" anything so we don't have to "quit" anything.
Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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ahhh, well.... I guess the honeymoon phase is over, but that isn't to say that I don't think that the messiness isn't good. I think that it is. I guess it really hits home when we visit a big church- we did not too long ago because a friend (a neighbor who became a christian a couple of years ago soon after my husband bailed him out of jail ) was giving his testimony on the big screen video feed of a nearby megachurch. Our oldest daughter was with us(the other kids opted to stay home) and as my husband and I try to not be negative about big church around our kids we didn't say much after the service, but asked her what she thought. She said, "well, it was OK, but it seemed like it was more about us than about God". Interesting comment from a 14 yr old- it makes me think that God is penetrating through the mess of participatory church after all .
I think we need to do more networking with other house church's- having no-one full time does make it a bit harder to follow through sometimes. We are praying for guidance in many areas for sure!
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Oh, yeah, the honeymoon is fun, but it doesn't last forever. At some point, you have to move on to building a family... or God's kingdom.
How many families do you have who "get it a little bit", Jeanne? Perhaps, I should say, how many do you have in first-relationship status, as opposed to "friends of friends". Can you draw (for yourself) a diagram of families that are part of your overall kingdom life? If you do, what do you see?
On our diagram, I see three families that are similar in maturity level and family stability. Connected to all three, are 3 other families that we are all in friend relationships, both believing families, with dramatic testimonies but not really confident in the "new thing" yet. Then, each of these five families has a couple of neighbors, not yet part of us. We all pray for and look for opportunities to meet these neighbors. Next there are a number of other families that we invite to "big events", most of whom are still attending church in some way, but we watch for opportunities to meet with them one on one, or with the larger group, and mode l the kingdom. The outermost circle is unsaved family, people we do business with, people we learn about farming from, etc.
When I diagram them out, it is encouraging, because God is active more than I'm really aware of... it just can't be counted the "old way" as to "how many members or how many adherents or how many on Sunday morning or how many on Easter". Rather, it is "how many are part of the web God is building in Foyil."
In Forensic science, it is said that "every contact leaves a trace". That's how I see our "fragrance of life". We rejoice every time we learn a shopkeeper's name, find someone to teach us a new skill, or who buy our produce. If 'every human contact leaves a trace', then how much more with the Holy Spirit breathe life through us to those who are perishing?
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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Yes, very well put. I am beginning to see this more network way of building God's kingdom, but it is taking time. It is hard not to count in the "old way", and then to pass on this new way of thinking to the others who are involved with us seems even more difficult.
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but step by step the situation is dealt with until the whole fellowshipping body stays away from this person. That way everything is out in the open, and the one being "disciplined" is able to see that the whole fellowship is standing together.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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