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Hello brothers and sisters in Christ. I have recently registered upon this site and so far I have enjoyed the variuos dialogue I have read. Not too many war stories and yet lots of individuals researching The Bible and seeking God through prayer for the truth. This is an urgent need lest we be carried away by the constant changes in christian circles everywhere. I want to encourage you to consider what is plainly shown in The Bible as true, that only one church resided in each city. Contrary to todays methodology in naming churches after ones name and all sorts of other things the Biblical stance is clear. I belong and am a part of the church where I live and so do you. I am all for the concept of having fellowship in homes as that provides more intimacy,accountability,mutual sharing and excercising of ones spiritual gifts. There are other advantages as you know. But the truth be told we do not belong to a house church anymore than we still do a particular denomination. To claim such is just as much sectarian(separating ourselves and claiming to be distinctive(not like others)as a large denomination. All such sectarian attitudes and actions are foreign to the unity Jesus bought for us in His death and resurrection(John 17). The only manner in which the unity of all born again believers can be retained is in the manner God initially has shown us in His Word. That is to claim to belong to the church where I live. I may continue to fellowship within a house church in Chicago,Il and as such I belong to the church in or at Chicago,Il.The specific place to which I go to fellowship is insignificant(provided the truth is there)nor is the name of that place or ministry important.What is important is that I and you speak the truth- we belong and are a part of the church where we live. In Jonn 17 Jesus speaks of the unity He and His Father possess and the unity that is soon to be the possession of not only all of the disciples but also of those that believe through their word.The latter could include any born again Christians saved after Christs resurrection. Jesus put it this way,"that they may be one,even as You Father are in Me and I in You,that they also may be in Us,so that the world may believe that You sent Me" Further reading expounds upon the perfecting of our unity as believers. What does this mean? In Christs resurrection the unity of all believers was accomplished.The fact that we don't see the practical outworking of that unity is a result of several things. 1)We live by sight instead of thanking God for the unity we ALREADY possess. Even though Christians are not literally "dead to sin"(we still have the ability to choose),nonetheless God declares that we are "dead to sin via our relationship with Him.If we want practical unity we must ALWAYS begin with God actions and declarations.His finished work MUST be the bases for ALL subsequent truth being established in us as well as the universal body of Christ. As regards unity and the topic at hand, God says we are unified. As such I must stop speaking the divisive language of disunity.If we would spend more time seeing all of us as Christians seated in the heavenlies with Christ this problem would almost resolve itself. Now knowing this truth we MUST stop acting contrary to what God has done. No more doing it our way,creating various sects of believers to make of no effect God's Word.Instead we speak and live the truth. We are united! We are one with Jesus and each other and we always will be.God's method to insure that practical unity is to have one church in each specific locale. Even in cities where hundreds of small home churches reside they ALL are part of the same chuch,the church in that city.Whether others erect temples in various names or not isn't the issue.The issue is will I side with God's ways or continue to perpetrate a lie? If in ignorance we have done or promoted such methods contrary to The Word God He will forgive us.From now on let us continue to fellowship in our homes as Our Lord directs with one difference. Let us speak not of our precious home church environment(which it very well may be praise God)but of the church to which we are and belong.In this manner the world will see(also John 17)and our speaking in regard to Christs finish work will do more to bring practical unity that all of mans methods put together. We are united. Michael of thechurch@grandrapids,Mi.
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Jeremiah 51:45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.
2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Well, it depends on what church you belong to.......
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Hi Michael, I've this question for a long time and hopefully you will have the answer - how many churches were there in the city of Rome when Paul wrote his letter to the Romans? I can identify Priscilla and Aquila's home church (Rom 16:3-5) but were there any other churches? Did all the Christians mentioned in the letter meet at Priscilla and Aquila's or did they have a separate meeting place? If the Priscilla and Aquila's home church were part of the city church then a. why the need for the home church - which in a way caused division? b. how did they decide where to have meetings? c. was the city church structured like present day traditional churches with Pastors, elders & deacons? Kindly share your thought. Thanks
Could I suggest a scriptural perspective on the subject of "city churches"?
I believe the new covenant scriptures clearly teach that God has THREE KINDS OF CHURCHES:
(1)The "BIG church" i.e. the church which is the body of Christ which includes every born again believer who has lived since the new covenant was established and the Holy Spirit sent down to indwell them. This church has never yet been gathered together but will be when the Lord jesus returns. This church is mentioned in I Cor.12:12-28; Romans 12:4,5; Eph.1:22,23 and Colossians 1:24
(2)The "church of God" is the scriptural term that designates a church in city. There is never more than one church of God in any city, but there are plural "churches of God" in larger territories. The church of God in any city includes all the sanctified ones in Christ Jesus in that city. See I Cor.1:2
It is God's intention that all believers in particular cities should gather together at times IN ONE PLACE. This was first century practice. See Acts 2:46a, 6:1-7, 15:12-22 and see the scripturasl regulations for such gatherings of all the saints together in ONE PLACE in I Cor.14:23-40.
(3)The "church in thy house" is the smallest of the three scriptural kinds of churches and there are many examples of such gatherings in scripture.
So many house churches in a city, one church of God in every city or community where there are believers and one BODY OF Christ in which every child of God is a member. (Note that membership is never mentioned in connection with the church of God in a city or in connection with a house church. Membership in scripture is only associated with BODIES in scripture. (Our physical bodies and the Body of Christ.)
In like manner, breaking of bread (full meals) eaten in remembrance of the Lord Jesus is only mentioned in connection with the smallest kind of churches, the house churches. Breaking of bread in scripture takes place in normal dwelling places. But city wide church gatherings are usually convened in much larger venues.
Does this help to understand the issues relative to "church"?
What thoughts do other brothers and sisters have on these things?
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Thank you, Bruce W. I think that was well put. I think I was a little out of line with my slightly sarcastic response -- I apologize if I offended anyone.
To try to have all of the Christians in a given area meet all together could be rather difficult in most communities. I used to live in a town of 5000 persons. I now live in a metropolitan area where the best known city has a population over 2 million. In neither the small municipality nor in the large was there a venue large enough to accomodate all the Christians who normally met in homes and various church owned buildings.
Because of various styles of worship, and lack of tolerance of the practitioners of each, to try to get all of the Christians in a municipality together in one place would also have significant political difficulities.
The closest I have seen to a gathering of Christians from many different backgrounds is a Billy Graham crusade, and even there it is quite difficult to get persons from certain backgrounds to work with persons from certain other backgrounds.
I would really like to see Christians displaying enough love and tolerance to be able to work together, respecting each other's preferences in worship, but I don't think it is going to happen, especially considering that there have been divisive doctrinal arguments at least since Paul started evangelizing the Gentiles.
I think Bruce W put it rather well, however the breakdown to which I have been accustomed makes reference to 2 definitions of church, not 3 as Bruce has used. One is the Church Universal, which is all Christians from the first to accept Christ's Lordship and forgiveness, right up to the present time. The other is the local church, which could be a house church or an IC (institutional church) of any size. Sorry, Bruce, but if we are really going to include all "believers" from any given municipality (in most of North America), there is not likely to be a place large enough to hold them all.
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I like what you say Michael Ferguson. That is what I like about the internet, you can always learn something new. We should do things like they did in the bible, just exactly like they did and not change from it. Sometimes I look for great scholars to spewl forth their knowledge but sometimes I wonder if the greatest knowledge just comes from housewives and ordinary people. The bible says He uses the weak things of this world to confound the wise.
Like it was just an ordinary housewife that discovered that the true leaders of the church were men according to Acts 1:21. The early church had no women leaders at all. It is just so simple, the way the bible says things should be is the way they are. It is just plain. It is just simple. It is just easy. Did He not say come unto Him for His yoke is easy and His burden light?
It is so simple, it is right there in front of our faces.
I'm very sorry for taking so long to respond to your post on the 6th of May! Since then we've been busy moving down to Indiana, helping to set up a full scale replica of the O.T. TABERNACLE, and starting to guide tours through it. We expect to be here till the end of October. We also just recently got connected again to the internet.
I can certainly understand your questions and difficulties about seeing whole city-wide church gatherings today! However, I notice that your objections are not based on scriptural reasoning, showing that such gatherings were NOT the first century norm, nor are they based on any perceived conflict withn any scriptural principle. Your only objection seems to be that you cannot conceive of how such gatherings would be a possibility in the N.American religious system of the 21st century.
I grant you that I have never seen such a gathering and doubt that anyone ever has in N.America! (BTW, Billy Graham Crusades have absolutely no resemblance at all to I Cor.14 whole church gatherings in one place!) Can you imagine such a crusade functioning according to I Cor.14:23-40???
But every first century whole church gathering recorded in scripture (i.e. Acts 6:1-7, Acts 15:12-22 etc) certainly did!
Prior to Acts 6, the church at Jerusalem included at least 5,000 MALES! Counting women and children, it may very well have included as many as 10 or 15,000 people just a few short years after Pentecost!
The membership rolls of most institutionaql or denominational churches include vast numbers of "church members" who do not know Christ and would have no interest in gathering with saints of God in order to obey the scriptural commands of the Lord Jesus Christ! recorded for us in I Cor.14!
But the major hindrances to such gatherings today are NOT the physical logistics, but rather the denominational kingdom building MINSETS of religious leaders and Christians today!
My concern in this regard is this: IF such a whole church gathering was actually convened in my community NEXT MONTH.... would I be willing to participate? ...would I be willing to function according to all the scriptural instructions in I Cor.14:23-40?...would I enthusiasticly encourage all other believers that I knew in my community to do the same?
IMO the acid test is this: -If I can answer a hearty "YES" to each of the above questions, I will be part of the solution to the current sectarian and denominational problem! -But, if I answer "NO" to any of those questions, it is clear that I AM ACTUALLY PART OF THE WHOLE PROBLEM that is keeping the church as a whole from obeying the commandments of the Lord!
How does this perspective appeal to you?
I look forward to hearing your response as you carefully consider these matters in light of scripture.
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Greetings Everyone. Just a thought... The end goal of the church as I see in Eph. 4:13 is that we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; Reading on I don't see an emphasis place on location, time, or congregation size mentioned. If God wants his church to gather on Thursday evening at 7 PM the corner of 1st and Main in Anytown, USA, then He would use the same method He's used for centuries: His Spirit, His voice. "My sheep hear my voice..." And those who know His voice will do as He says, showing up at 7 PM on 1st & Main. Is it really as important for churches of any size (2 or 2000) to gather together in one mass gathering, as it is for one member of His body to function in the spirit as He has designed? I wonder sometimes how many of these large gatherings are really directed by the Lord versus orchestrated by man? King David numbered Israel to his own detriment. Is there instruction in scripture for the New Testament Church to gather at certain times in mass? If so where in scripture, and what was the purpose? I believe worshipping in Spirit and in truth is to happen continuously, in solitary or in the congregation, and unity is of the faith (the Word) not just becuase we can all get along in a large crowd. I think God has intentionally left somethings unclear in scripture, because He's not going to fit into our boxes and neither is His church. His Word transends culture, societies, and current trends. Is "city church" mentioned scripture? Is a church in a house less the church? If I do my part, and you do your part, then Christ is obligated to do His part...to add to the church daily such as should be saved.
We are a royal priesthood, let's show forth His praise!
Thank you for the opportunity to contribute, Lord willing, it offers some edifying thoughts.
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