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It has amazed me how often folks come out of the system seeking to find a home church to go to? It is the systems clergy/laity mentality that leads one to seek such a church to go to.
When I first got on line and found the many home church sites, I noticed most had a denominational slant. I also noticed the push from the IC to have small groups called cells, their attempt to hang on to the members that seek a better way or to draw in the unchurched who don’t seek the large IC way. These groups have a definite denominational slant. These should not be classified as home churches . Even though they may meet in homes; they are part of the IC system.
I can’t understand why some need seminars to learn how to home church. Seems they still seek men’s rules. Isn’t all we need a Bible, a couple of people and a place to sit and talk? Be it a home or a parking lot?
How many of you out there who home school seek others to come to your house school or seek to go to theirs? The very nature of “home” church means the church in the home. Just as we can teach our children in the home and out of the system-----------the same for home church. Learn of Christ in the home and out of the system. In such a family group there is no denomination unless you bring it from your past. The many home churches do not make a denomination as each is subject to Christ and not to each other.
When thinking of the body of Christ, remember the hand does things one way and the foot another. They are both under Christ the head. Thus, denominations try to make all act like a foot or all act like a hand and are under the control of men who think like feet or hands, etc. Men think conformity to their rules at all cost.
While it is good to meet, it is not commanded for all to meet at one time and one place. The hand does not have to meet with the foot. And yet they are connected by the head and part of the body.
Another example would be a family reunion. Each family has a home. They meet there together daily for living. Maybe once a year they get together with the other families in their family for a big reunion. Each small family comes, bringing what they can and putting it together into a big pot luck for a day of fellowship. However, this is not a daily or weekly thing.
I believe the church was run much like this with small households worshiping the Lord in their daily lives. Sometimes others would visit or even gather in larger groups much like our own family groups do. Other times a person would stay for mentoring and then go out as in Apollos at Pricilla and Aquilla’s house. This is very similar to the home school movement who gather for book sales, field trips, etc.; and yet they school privately at home.
Why do we try to connect the home church into a system?
The purpose of the church is to go out not come in, isn’t it? Looks like the bunching of home churches into large groups is trying to make a denomination of them. We must not allow ourselves to be drawn into another system of men’s makings. Let the foot walk and the hand wave and the head lead!
posted
Faith, I agree whole-heartedly about some of the things that you stated but there are some things that appear to be a little out of place. I don't mention this to be critical but to create some discussion. Maybe I am wrong...if so, I would like to know.
First, this statement: "...When thinking of the body of Christ, remember the hand does things one way and the foot another..."
I don't believe the hand and the foot do things differently, just a different part of the same thing. Your statement seems to imply that we can meet anyway that we want and it doesn't really matter because we are all different. The scripture outlines how we should meet and that is what we should do. However, we each have a different piece. When we walk the entire body is walking but the foot and the hand have different roles in that function. But none-the-less our entire body is walking. The Lord gives differences of gifts so that we can all contribute our part, not so that we can go out and do our own thing.
Second, you seem to be really down on the gathering of the saints together on a regular basis. I don't know why that is, maybe you can explain it to me. However, if what you say is true then a great deal of the book of 1 Corinthians makes absolutely no sense. Much of that book was dedicated to HOW the saints were to gather together. Paul discussed how the table was to be taken, how the meetings were to be participatory, how the various gifts were to be used, what types of words were to be spoken, and on and on and on. Paul clearly was not referring to just "households" gathering. This was a more corporate gathering of the saints together at one place. We as members of the body of Christ need this for accountability, fellowship, encouragment, and so on. The scripture deals with all of this. You are right, too many people seek to grow their own little church or kingdom. This is wrong. But like-minded, Christ seeking people should gather together. This is good and right and exalted in scripture by Paul's emphasis on how important it is to gather in the Lord's way under the headship of Christ. In my life I have clearly fled the institutional type gatherings for gatherings that are led by Christ without a man lording over the meeting. But none-the-less I gather. Thus, I do understand the need to escape institutionalism, because that is not God's will. But I don't understand the "go-it-alone" approach to gathering because I don't see that in scripture at all. To make that stretch is beyond the scope of scripture.
posted
I am writing only to share what is in my heart and why I have chosen to sever myself from the IC. A medical analogy (although imperfect) may help explain my decision.
I have been aware of an extremely deadly cancer within the IC. These cancerous elements have infiltrated, taken over and are spreading throughout the Body at an alarming pace. This cancer kidnapped sound doctrine and has surreptitiously replaced it with humanism. This wolf in sheep's clothing acts as a parasite living off the Body, sucking at our strength. In the name of Tolerance, the IC slowly began to surrender Truth to this parasite to the point that Truth and the Parasite are inseparable.
Since much of the IC has compromised itself in order to live with the Parasite, it probably is doomed. It will either die or become unrecognizable as more and more parts are overtaken by the Parasite.
Since Christ is our Head, I know that I will find pockets of other Believers who have fled into the wilderness. As more and more Believers open their eyes the Exodus will increase. Sadly, some will succumb to the falsehood and perish within. Others may choose to stand and fight.
For me, I decided to leave. Some people seem to make this decision more easily than I did. I've agonized over this decision. I kept hoping the Body will wake up and excise the cancer itself. Sadly it doesn't seem to be happening.
My final thought on this is taken from Luther and seems most appropriate here: " . . .my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."
And here I stand, along with my new friends here at the RCCafe.
posted
Just one additional thought: To me, the debate over the historical IC vs. HC is rather moot. It does not matter if there has never been one HC in history although we know there have been. When the Lord says to flee, I need to obey.
posted
May the Lord direct your paths and keep your courage renewed each day, Piglet. May it please him to give the same courage to others nearby. I wish we were closer!
Better the smile of God than all the frowns of an entire city.
quote:I don't believe the hand and the foot do things differently, just a different part of the same thing.
And how does the hand walk? And does the foot wave? While they are part of the body, they are different with different abilities and duties. The IC and some HC tend to try to make cookie cutter Christians who are all alike and part of the system, be it large (IC) or small (HC with denominational slant). Maybe the example is not the best; but do you see what I meant? While the hand and foot are part of the same body, they don’t always sit on the same bench. In fact, they rarely sit on the bench at all! Be the church not go to it!
quote:Your statement seems to imply that we can meet anyway that we want and it doesn't really matter because we are all different.
We can meet anyway that does not go against God! We are all different and God uses us different ways. Who are we hands to judge the feet or feet to judge the hands?
Do the feet know when the hand waves? Do the hands know where the feet are going? Thus, how can they all be in the same meeting at the same time. Often they are seemingly working independently of each other; but they are all under the direction of the head. The head is where the actual meeting occurs. The head controls the actions of the other parts. We are one body in Christ not in a meeting.
quote:The scripture outlines how we should meet and that is what we should do.
There are different ways to meet at different times in the scriptures. Who is able to say it must always be the way it was explained to the Corinthians? I think they were being corrected for some wrong things--------- not told exactly how to meet, when, where, how often. Where does it state they met regularly? Once a week? Once a month? Once a year? It doesn’t. So who is to say?
Corinthians was written to the Corinthian church. However, it was a letter which would have been passed from person to person or group to group rather than addressing the whole church in one meeting. The overall theme of the book is not how to meet but how to live in Christ.
I see that the first thing addressed in 1 Cor.1 was the fact that some were of Paul, of Apollos, & of Cephas. These were not specific households but people were following specific men. This is one reason I choose not to look for a group to meet with. Each group seems to be of someone or have some group of doctrines they feel is the way it must be. Here on this board there has been much disagreement on how things must be done at times. Some of Paul, some of Apollos, etc. Some think this doctrine is right and others think that one is right. Thus, they are not like Paul exhorted them to be of one mind. It is near impossible to find a group of one mind. We truly are all different as long as we are human.
Paul told them to be of one mind , to preach the gospel ----not to meet in one group. Thus, I exhort everyone to look to Christ that one day we may all be in agreement when he finishes the work he has started in us. Somehow I just don’t see the meetings given the importance that most today give it.
Much of Corinthians is about how to live, not be idolaters, fornicators, murmurers, etc. ----------not how to meet, though there were some corrections on how to behave in a large meeting. The main theme seems to be : to be followers of Christ and do his will telling of the kingdom, regardless of meeting or not.
Chapter 11 does mention “when ye come together into one place.” Even though this shows a large meeting, it doesn’t state it is a regular meeting. I mentioned before the example of small families who gather with extended families now and then for family reunions. I think this may be very similar. I would suspect they may have gathered whenever someone like Paul came to town to hear him; but more often met in smaller groups of their own households. There are many verses showing those who gathered in their home. Either way it is never given how often a meeting must occur. Why do you think it is regular? How often is regular? Who decides?
What is shown through scripture is Christ often stopped to share the gospel or help others during his everyday life. He taught those he considered his immediate family (disciples) daily as they lived together and traveled together. When Christ met with large groups, he did to witness and preach the gospel to the lost. While he did go to Sabbath meetings, it was to preach the gospel to a lost group of temple worshipers -----not for fellowship with his close circle. (What of Deut. 6:6-9? Isn’t this how Christ treated his disciples? Is this how our home church should be? Is it possible with a large meeting?)
quote:The Lord gives differences of gifts so that we can all contribute our part, not so that we can go out and do our own thing.
However, who are we to say our gifts must be used in a meeting of saints? Isn’t the main focus of meetings to learn and encourage to go out to do the Lord’s work of preaching the kingdom? Way too much focus is placed on meeting for our own selfish needs and hardly any on going to the lost!
quote:Second, you seem to be really down on the gathering of the saints together on a regular basis.
I only have so much time in the day. I would rather spend it helping my family,my friends, my neighbors, etc. and shining the light of Christ to them than spend it in a meeting. Meetings have their place like home school meetings to gather materials, ideas & encouragement; but the main focus was on the children at home. The main focus of the Christian is to get ready to answer those who ask and go to them. I found regular meetings took up too much time for the actual benefit gained. There is the getting ready to go, the travel time, the small talk, the customs, some study, and then the goodbye, the travel and the wind down. The day is blown for others who may need help or information. As Christ example, his regular discussions were daily with his close disciples whom he considered family. Otherwise, he was out in the world helping others, physically as well as spiritually. Isn’t he our example? Aren’t we to follow him? Isn’t that the main theme of 1Corinthinans and the entire Bible?
Keep our eyes on things above not on gatherings on the earth. Enjoy fellowship when it occurs; but it is not our main purpose. Just as the Corinthians were encouraged by Paul’s letters, can’t we to encourage each other by letter as well? Thus, who says how many meetings we must arrange or how many letters we must write? When the crowns are passed out, will there be one for attendance? Or for loving our fellow humans even the enemies? What is our sole purpose?
Eccles. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Mark 12:30-31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. [31] And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
BTW, if I were busy with meetings, I would not have time to write you this letter exhorting you to look to Christ for all things and to follow him and him only.
Faith
truelove
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Faith.... you did a really good job of explaining yourself and what you mean and how you understand the Scriptures. For me personally, it reinforced what I believe myself. I hope that the many who read your explanation will be able to glean from it the nuggets of treasures for believers. I visited IC's for many many years and then of recent over the past few years the home churches and what you pointed out I have found to be true as well. If it's not someone's big kingdom that's being built then it seems to be someone's little kingdom in their home. It's sad, but true. I think it will take some time for me to get used to being without the comfort and security of meeting with others on a regular basis, since that was my habit for many years to meet with others several times a week. But, I look forward to the day when I don't have that empty feeling anymore. I see so many directives in how we should be in Christ and unfortunately it seems that for many it's only on paper, but not a true living visible reality in ones life. I'm trying to be and not just get head knowledge and speak it, but do it... That's enough in and of itself to keep one pretty busy and full.
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I'd be the first to agree that the meeting thing has gotten way out of focus. How many folks do you meet and ask if they are Christians and they began to almost brag about the number of meeting they have attended?
The word 'church' however, means an intentional gathering or assembly. In the thought world of the early church there was no concept of a faith without regular meetings and community beyond one's family, which is why they were seldom told to attend meetings. Rather, it was assumed that they would be gathering as a habit, thus the context of the Corinthian letters: when you come together...
A case can be fairly made that it was a dinner meeting, imo.
What's your all's take on the Hebrews passage? Hebrews 10:25: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
"Some assembly required," I suppose.
truelove
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What I've heard preached and taught in the IC's for the last 20 years is that Christian's/ believer's are commanded to meet together...ie Heb 10:25. In the context of many messages from the pulpit on why a believer needs to attend church every Sunday there is always somewhere in the preaching of that, the quote of Heb. 10:25 used to support it. Now, what I personally think, my chosen thoughts about this Scripture... is that there is this way of meeting that began during the time of Constantine that was unlike that of how the early A.D. Christians met and this way of meeting has come down through the centuries and remained in place as we see it today in churches everywhere who meet on Sunday mornings in a very specific way. And what I think has happened as often does... is that Scriptures have been pulled out from here and there to support this way of meeting. Here's something else to think about? It was maybe @ 60 A.D. when the writer, maybe Paul, wrote this letter to Jewish believers to encourage them in their new beliefs and faith. Must have been pretty difficult to have been a Jew believing in the Mosaic law and then convert to believing in the Jesus who had been crucified for blasphemy. Anyways, it was difficult to say the least, because we know that to be a Christian at that time could cost you your life. We know of all the persecutions and martyrdom that was prevalent in early A.D. and that finally escalated to the destruction of Jerusalem. We also know that Christians were getting together and sharing a meal, continuing in the disciples teachings, sharing psalms and teachings in homes mostly and then at the synagogues but mainly for the preaching of Christ to a people who still didn't believe. Anyways, with the persecution going on it might be reasonable to think that some were afraid to be found out to be a Christian and would forsake getting together with other believers for fear of losing their lives. That's not hard to believe about people in that situation. So did the writer say this to encourage them to get together regardless. Was he saying, "you need each other, don't stop getting together, you need each other more than ever, because the days are getting worse, and the worst is yet to come, so get together and exhort one another, you need it". It was maybe 10 years later that Jersualem was completely destroyed and it was @ the 60 A.D.s that Nero was persecuting Christians with such a veangence and wickedness that anyone might fear being found out to be a believer. Can you imagine being used as a human torch to light a garden? Don't mean to be so graphic, but these were the times and should be considered to possibly have some bearing on what's been written. He wasn't talking to a group of people who lived in a democratic, capitalist society, such as ours.. People making money, enjoying luxuries, taking expensive vacations who just didn't feel like getting up for church or were just too busy to go... I think the audience was a bit different. So does that mean we shouldn't get together, I don't think so. Does it mean we should deliberately get together on a set time, set place, with a set agenda, in a set format?... I don't think so.. But, maybe when we should ever come under persecution we might consider that we need others more than ever, for encouragement, edification, building up, support.. etc. and not try to go it alone through those difficult times. And for those times that are not so difficult, consider taking opportunities as you meet others, beliver's or not, to get together and share your lives in Christ. Organic...... Thanks for asking for thoughts about this... am looking forward to hearing other people's take on this too...
quote:It's sad, but true. I think it will take some time for me to get used to being without the comfort and security of meeting with others on a regular basis, since that was my habit for many years to meet with others several times a week. But, I look forward to the day when I don't have that empty feeling anymore.
truelove,
I had that empty feeling too at first because of my cultural background which stated, Christians go to church. The more I prayed and the more the Lord said, No; the more I realized I was seeking comfort and security outside of the Lord. He was faithful to teach me and to fill that empty place more than thousands of meetings could. Keep your eyes on him and he will fill that spot fully. In fact, I often felt very alone in meetings of the IC, be it large or small.
I agree with your next post. Heb. 10:25 is twisted to support man’s idea of assembling. It has no mention of how often or how many. I think for regular meetings we should look to Christ’s example with his band of “family”. We should also remember the exhortation
Matthew 18:19-20 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. [20] For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Ironically, the HC movement uses Matt. 18 as their excuse to withdraw from the IC; but then tries to use the IC’s interpretation of Heb. 10 to gather home churches together into larger meetings.
I can’t help but think of another phrase used in the HC and what does it really mean? House to house.
I noticed the early Christians were of one accord in the temple or from house to house. I also notice they were taught both in public and from house to house. These passages show me that the true Christian is of one accord with other Christians regardless of where. I believe those of one accord taught in the temple or in public gaining new converts and then continued teaching them in their houses.
I note it says from house to house not house to house. Thus, Paul and others visited individual houses. I think it was mentoring to a family of believers, rather than public group teaching. The large groups mentioned most often seem to be in a witnessing capacity to unbelievers or new converts. Where as the house to house is usually to believers. Acts 2 shows they were meeting different ways for different purposes; yet, believers had a singleness of heart, Christ in them.
Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
I can’t help but think of Isa. 5 and feel this is what the IC did and continues to try to do compromising along the way. Should the HC do this?
Isaiah 5:8 Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!
As for using the Corinthians as our example of how to be the church or how to gather as the church, I think we would do well do remember, they were a very carnal church and babies in Christ, not our mature examples to follow. They were being corrected for very specific things they were doing wrong.
1 Cor. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1 Cor. 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
If we must follow an example, let us follow a mature example as Paul who told us to follow him in Christ. If he did something not of Christ, he didn’t expect us to follow that. Ultimately, Christ is the one we follow in all things.
1 Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
For those who think truelove and I are too radical in our understanding, could you provide concrete evidence that explains what is a true gathering, how many, how often is regular and where does it state we must meet regularly? How does your view differ from the IC view of Heb. 10?
Faith
BTW, This example just came to me of how we often interpret the scriptures.
Say a kindergarden teacher took her children out for recess and they had to cross a street. She stops and tells the children, "When I am not with you, always look both ways and then cross the street." So later she slips out of her classroom for a moment only to find the children took her words too literal and in the wrong context. She finds them on the playground. Their reasoning, the teacher is no longer with us so we must "look both ways and then cross the street." Do we ever do this?
quote:For those who think truelove and I are too radical in our understanding, could you provide concrete evidence that explains what is a true gathering, how many, how often is regular and where does it state we must meet regularly? How does your view differ from the IC view of Heb. 10?
Hi brothers and sisters all,
I am also certain that most don't realize the great liberty and flexibility they possess with respect to their get-togethers in Jesus name. I am with you on that. I don't happen to believe that the ic is wrong about everything nor that the hc is right about everything, either. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
1 Cor 14 concerns the simple format of regular and ongoing meetings. At the close of that section the apostle clearly states that what he just wrote is applicable to all and that those who ignore the protocols should be ignored themselves. (verses 37, 38)
Here, again, is where it states, imo, that we must meet regularly:
Hebrews 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. NIV
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren - all of them, not just those who will rubber stamp all our favorite doctrines. Love, of course, always desires to be in the company of its object. Why would we not want to meet at every practical opportunity? These are those of whom we must love enough to die for, btw. 1 John 3:16. Why would we even need to be commanded to regularly be found in their company?
quote:Here, again, is where it states, imo, that we must meet regularly:
Hebrews 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. NIV
Still what is regular? Where does it say such? The passage does not say if they met once a day, once a week or once a year?
Our extended family gathered once a year, that was regular for the extended family. Our immediate family gathers when practical depending on the circumstances at the time. That is regular for our immediate family. Because one's idea of regular is not the same doesn't mean they have forsaken assembly. To forsake assembly would mean they never gather with anyone any time.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
truelove
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Yes, 1 Corinthians gives wonderful instructions and support for encouragine everyone to share if and when there are gatherings, but no mention of regular or what regular means is mentioned. I'm glad that Paul sealed it with vs. 37 and 38 as coming from God. But, even so, man will still try to twist it and try to fit it into his agenda. Like trying to fit a puzzle piece into the wrong place. That's why I'm just not okay with IC's and HC's who try to control everything about the gathering. I must say that I have never experienced a meeting where someone on staff or a selected volunteer by the staff was not controlling the gathering. And to me, that makes everything wrong in it, because everything is being controlled by man. In our house we say NG..(that means no good)...
I have been in some HC gatherings where there has been that same kind of control and in some HC gatherings where there wasn't any control. I think control has to be removed from the meeting for it to operate anything near or like what is being talked about in 1 Corinthians 14... And I don't see any set formula for regular, although I see in Acts that they were continuing with all things in common, going from house to house, sharing meals, and continuing in the apostle's doctrine, daily. A wonderful way of living with other believer's I suppose. I can only imagine why that was though, people who had been living under the law and now they have freedom in Christ, they've been set free. We today experience being set free from the bondage of sin, yes they did too, but they also were set free from a religion as well, a very powerful and controlling religion. So imagine their newfound joy of knowing the true Messiah and witnessing his power, and feeling free...etc. Everyone must have been feeling such a sense of awe, they were the first ones...and they probably couldn't help but hang out together and celebrate this new faith. This is one of a few of the Scriptures that I can find that suggests that believer's met on a regular basis of any sort..but, I don't see it as a command, I see it as the way it was at that time. And I think it's possible that their lifestyle made that easier for it to happen that way. It's just not hard to imagine.... considering that people lived differently, went to the same waterhole daily, didn't travel too far away from home considering their source of transportation and they overall just depended more on each another and lived in peace with one another. In my home, I daily meet with my immediate family since we live in the same house. It's natural, it's organic. Then sometimes I meet with others outside of my house as we meet other people and have opportunities, usually a natural setting, like home, rather than a movie theatre style prefabricated service.
Anyways, I think our family meeting daily qualifies for regular. As far as regular meaning anything else...that's another thing. How can we put a formula to regular, except what Faith said, don't stop ever meeting with another. That makes sense doesn't it. Don't avoid or brush off opportunites to meet with others, but seize the opportunites that come your way.
I wonder what Paul would say to those in IC's who are running the show and basically silencing the others who should be able to share. I just wonder what he would say if he walked in to some of those meetings. I wonder what he would say if he walked into my home. Would he tell me to go out and meet with others regularly and if you can't find anyone other than those in your family then go to those Sunday services at a local building every Sunday and if not that go find someone who's doing a little church in their home every Friday night and so what if one person is doing the controlling and others aren't really able to share, what's important is a regular meeting time and remember do not forsake the assembling together as some do. Or would he say? Keep meeting with the family God has given you and allow God to show you or lead you to someone outside of your home to meet with today, and then tommorrow, and each day, just trust Him for your Manna from heaven on a daily basis....and don't settle for substitutes..the Lord will provide....
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The gifts of the Holy Spirit were not just for the family but "for the common good." The gifts are specifically given "to the church" not merely for private purposes. 1 Corinthians 12:7
The overseer's function (not office) wasn't just for the family, either. "If one's family was out of control, how could he shepherd beyong the family?" Paul inquired. Part of this community oversight included teaching which implies meetings of some regular sort. 1 Timothy 3
Nor was the supper of remembrance a family only event. (Not to say that it couldn't or shouldn't be - it should.) The apostle reminded the Corinthians that they "had their own houses to eat in" rather than allowing the poor to go hungry as the rich over-ate at the community meeting. 1 Corinthians 11:22
If one's family or any two people is all who desire to meet in a certain locality then that's fine but it isn't the usual New Testament picture and it could certainly lead to the community not benefiting from His various gifts.
From the beginning of Acts, the saints "met daily" - there was no reason for the apostles to repeatedly command them to meet since they already had a long history of doing so, even prior to Acts.
Good discussions, here.
truelove
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Mr. Anderson... I'm beginning to think that you are trying to convince me that the family in my home does not really count for gathering according to your understanding and maybe your own personal standards. May God bless you and provide you with Manna from heaven on a daily basis, as you learn to trust Him daily for your needs. Blessings....
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You misunderstand, truelove. If there is anyone who has sought to promote and defend any two or three Christians met in Jesus' name as a bona-fide church, it is I. The resistance has been great, particularly by the "church planter advocates." More than 10 years ago I started a newsletter called "2 or 3 gathered."
There is the usual and the unusual when it comes to living for God. Community meetings were the apostolic norm in most places but family meetings are/were totally legit, too.
What I don't see (yet) in scripture is a meetingless variety of Christianity. I doubt that anyone here is for such an arrangement or rather non-arrangement but that's what might be concluded. More on that later.
Do stick around, brother or sister, you'll have the same posting priviledges as anyone else, including me. If you can show a better way, please do so. We'll all be better off.
Cheers to the Lamb!
truelove
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You misunderstand, truelove. If there is anyone who has sought to promote and defend any two or three Christians met in Jesus' name as a bona-fide church, it is I. The resistance has been great, particularly by the "church planter advocates." More than 10 years ago I started a newsletter called "2 or 3 gathered."
My response: wonderful!!!! Isn't wonderful how when you enter in to the Body of Christ - His church.. you become involved with others at some level because of this new association with Christ which organically connects us with others in the Body of Christ. It just happens, organic, and led by the Living God Himself. The body of Christ is not prefabricated by man but it just is by God.
Do stick around, brother or sister, you'll have the same posting priviledges as anyone else, including me. Thank you for treating me the same as others, I would have never thought you would have done otherwise, at least not someone who is a follower of Christ and I do belive there is very clear Scripture that supports equality. I'm wondering if you are in some exalted position that you would make such a distinction as "including me".. and i question where that exaltation came from.. God or man? Blessings brother... may you find the better way..as I have...
If you can show a better way, please do so. We'll all be better off.
My response: I plan to stick around and I would have never thought that my Posting privileges would be any different than anyone elses. I question the reason behind your making mention of that. Except to possibly show yourself as an authority figure, maybe the mentor/administrator of the group? I'm not here to show anyone a better way. But you seem to want to hear about a better way? I really don't like playing games with people and honestly your comments I find are contentious, evasive, and without clarity. So, since you have the authority by all means go ahead and kick me off, until then I will enjoy and respond to those lists that edify and build up or minister or need ministering to in some way.
Again, God bless and may you come to a place where you trust in the Lord for your daily needs including gathering with others....
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I agree with D Anderson. Family meetings are absolutely wonderful and necessary. I meet with my family for family worship, study, discussion, and son on regularly (at least 4-5 times per week on average). I believe to neglect this type of gathering opportunity would be wrong IMO.
That being said, much of what has been said concerning the writings of Paul on how to gather, eldership, the Lord's Supper, the use of spiritual gifts, and so on would mean nothing in the context of a family gathering only. Am I trying to convince you to not meet as a family, absolutely not. But I am trying to encourage you not to give up on finding a regular gathering outside your family (how often...it doesn't matter) where the context of these scriptures and the fulfillment of the these scriptures can happen. I personally have found such a place. A place where we share full meals together as part of the Lord's Supper in beautiful fellowship, a place where everyone can share and participate and feels free to do so, a place where we truly look out for the good of each other when they are down and need help, a place where there is servant leadership that doesn't lord over people, and so on. I would not give this gathering up for anything. But at the same time I won't give up what I have with my family. All things in balance. And when there is a conflict of priority my family always wins out. It wasn't always this way so I thank the Lord that he has straightened me up. But don't give up! Maybe there is no such place in your area. If not, then so be it...just meet with your family. But if the Lord leads you to a place where His teachings and His ways are being fulfilled then latch on to it with all of your might. But it is going to require that you be diligent to search it out...because chances are it is not right next door.
Once again, I am not trying to change what you are doing...just add a little to it =)
posted
It seems this topic has taken quiet a side line. The idea of compromise was the original focus and do HC as well as IC compromise? Somehow my pointing out one way some compromise in the HC making little denominations and placing much emphasis on certain types of meetings became a battle of if you have to meet in a large group or not. I have not said one should not ever meet with a large group of Christians. I have said to look and to meet because you think you have to is wrong. To say you must meet regularly and then question another person’s idea of regular is wrong. Scripture never states how often to meet with large groups.
The idea of having to hunt a group just for the sake of having a larger group to meet with is no different than the IC. I believe when and if God wants me to meet with someone, he will work out the details. I don’t have to look for fellowship with anyone but him. He works out the details, I don’t have too.
During the time I was home schooling, there were some who were going to have a seminar on home churching. I’d never heard the term before; but we had been doing it for years. I wondered why have a seminar? I did meet some of the ladies & heard the speaker’s pitch and felt they were looking for a little denomination of home churchers. I also felt there was a need in these folks for control as they had a seminar on “how to” with some set of man made rules. I think they were going to have plenty of books, etc. to sell about the subject. I don’t like to see the Lord merchandised.
Later I talked with a person who wanted to go to a home church. This person had tried to have their own home church but it failed. I’m not sure what they wanted it to do; but I felt in talking with them that they wanted a little denomination too. They wanted to know how we did ours, rather more like they wanted to check out the entertainment or something.
Another home church lady in my area turned up as a nurse helping my sick mom. We talked, prayed and cried together and felt a real bond. However, I never saw her again ,though I looked at the hospital. I figured since she didn’t ask to stay in touch and since God did not put her in our path again, we were not meant to meet together;. She was sent to comfort and encourage me just when I needed it. Interestingly, the thing we had in common was Jesus. We knew absolutely nothing of each others beliefs. It was in him we fellowshipped. However, the others I had talked to before seemed content on finding fellowship in some custom or doctrine & did not feel right to me. I knew that God would work things out his way and in his time.
B. Miller, said he is not trying to change what we are doing; but add to it. Adding to it is changing it and I believe only God will change what I am doing. If he wills me to meet with a large group, then he will see that I do. I will not seek it, for his answer has been no so far. He has told me many times his grace is sufficient. I know there must be more in common than the desire to home church for true fellowship. I know there must be more than the desire for friends or fellowship. I also know the barriers of denominationalism and men’s customs must be put aside.
Truelove has said he found the better way. Thus, why do you , B Miller, seek to add to it?
As I understand the scriptures only God can add to the church and it has absolutely nothing to do with the number of meetings or how many attend. That is the system I left. Why anyone want to add it back in?
This group is usually very open and accepting even when we do disagree. I must ask why can’t you at least understand and respect our idea of regular? Why must we add your meaning of regular? We certainly aren’t telling you to stop meeting as you are. It is between you and God and those you meet with. I was just showing that we must be careful not to go back to the ways of the IC and that we have freedom in Christ.
So far the passages of scripture shown only show how one should behave at a large meeting; but not how often nor even how large nor if these big meetings are required. If there is direct instructions of how many , how big, and how often regular is, then please state. If not, why not accept that our regular meetings are regular for us? There are many reasons why one doesn’t or can’t meet outside the home. To say one isn’t meeting regularly because it isn’t the way you do it is judgmental. I am surprised , after all I hoped we were on the same side.
I do think we can learn from each other’s opinions and understanding of the scriptures. But we have to respect our differences if we are truly in Christ.
quote:how to gather, eldership, the Lord's Supper, the use of spiritual gifts, and so on would mean nothing in the context of a family gathering only.
How so? Can’t a family gather? Can’t a family have elders? Isn’t Dad the elder of the family or in some it may be Grandpa or an Uncle? Can’t a family remember the Lord’s sacrifice for us? And couldn’t spiritual gifts be shared in a family? BTW, some gifts are not even meant to be shared among the saints, but are for the lost to hear the gospel and believe! (like tongues.)
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Faith, sorry you have taken me the wrong way. If you feel like what you are doing is fulfilling God's will for your life at this time then by all means do that. I am always seeking the Lord's will for my life on how, when, and how often he wants me to gather and with whom I should be gathering. So much of what I am saying should be simply viewed in that light. I was just pointing out what I see in the scriptures and the case for meeting regularly. I was not making the case that what you are doing is wrong. I was making the case for not giving up on or hardening your heart to the fact that God may wish you to be in a gathering and thus will lead you to a gathering. I just sense a lot of resistance to the idea and thus God could have His desire for you to meet this way and you reject His will. Do I know that will happen, no way! I just perceive that it could happen from what you right...but I could be taking you wrong. But as you have said, that is between you and Him and I will not judge you for this. I do believe from what you have said that you are meeting regularly (though you don't need my approval, only the Lords). Praise the Lord for that. Just don't reject that the scriptures do deal with larger gatherings.
I would like to deal with one thing though. To say that the father is the elder of the house is to take this out of context IMO. According to 1 Timothy 3:
" 5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)"
Obviously from this the proper rule at home is the qualification for being an elder. How can the home be the qualification for gathering just in the home?
Also, Titus 1 states:
"5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:"
Once again, it is clear that this was a city-wide issue and the qualifications of which men to set into place are given. This is clearly beyond the scope of a family only gathering.
I guess it is possible that the family could be quite large but it just seems like a stretch to me to interpret the scripture in this way. There is no clear justification for such an interpretation. It is one thing to believe that the Lord is pleased with the way that you are meeting and wishes you to meet this way. It is another thing to interpret scripture in the light of your present situation for justification. You need no justification to meet the way you are. It is clearly within the scope of scripture to meet the way you are and for that to be God's perfect will. I do not dispute that. But I can't see using the scriptures about elders and the other scriptures in 1 Corinthians in this way.
Do I have any justification for how regular I meet? No, I don't. I have thought and thought about that and I don't. But the way in which we meet is only like the IC in the sense that it is regular. But what we do when we meet is nothing like the IC. I am thankful that you have brought to light the fact that "regular" doesn't so much mean every week but as often as the Lord provides opportunity. Thanks for that insight and I will keep it in mind.
And by the way, I love your conviction and enjoy reading your posts. Your love for the Lord and only Him shines through bright and clear and I love that. Continue seeking the Lord and he will provide all you need in the family and outside the family if He sees fit...that is for sure.
Blessings B Miller
truelove
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My family had a special time last weekend. Over the last several months I've been sharing my life in Christ and the good news of His coming to save us, with a distant family member. She traveled from the East to the West Coast to stay at our home for the weekend to hear about Jesus and to share that belief in a baptism. It was such a neat thing, I called people that I know outside of my immediate family and invited them to a Friday night of food and sharing, to share our personal testimonies about how we came to know Jesus and then to be followed up with a baptism at a certain place, at a certain time the following morning. Well, here I was putting this all together, but none of it was coming together. Friday night went by and we didn't have that time of food and sharing, no one could make it, except Mom, dad, sister, and brother... Then Saturday came and there was a memorial that came up and we couldn't follow through with the baptism as planned. Saturday night I lay in bed praying to God and I gave it all over to Him... Are you doing this Lord or am I? I won't push or pull or control or arrange, this is your child, your church, and you lead... according to your will let it be done. Sunday morning came... Mom, dad, sister, and brother, all up and in the living room.. sharing their testimonies, sharing in prayer, sharing in Scriptures about salvation, and one person who heard it from just a simple little family and so she asked Jesus into her heart. She cried a flood of tears as Jesus made her heart white of snow and took away all her sin, and we cried as we witnessed it. and their was no one there outside of blood relatives in that small gathering where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name there He is in the midst of them. We shared a meal, we broke bread, we shared a life giving message, we taught, we learned, and we prayed. Then the daughter told us of a spot with a waterfall and pool of water where we could baptize and so off the family went and now small grandchildren had joined too and up to the outdoor stream and then mom went into the water with the new convert and baptized her not for salvation, but for the new converts own desire to show her new life in Christ marked by her salvation. and the angels were singing....... and celebrating in heaven.. Thank you Lord for inviting me to take a part in just living in the body of Christ. I won't see her again for another 6 mos or maybe even a year, but I will think of it as a gathering and not any different because certain elements don't exist. We just are, an inheritance when we received the life of Christ in us... and that is church..... that's enough for me and will carry me until the next time that God calls us to be involved in His plans... Until then shall I conjur up some type of regular meetings to qualify... I don't think so, because I don't want to miss out on what HE is doing because I was busy doing what Man was doing..
quote:I am thankful that you have brought to light the fact that "regular" doesn't so much mean every week but as often as the Lord provides opportunity. Thanks for that insight and I will keep it in mind.
Yes, I’m glad to see you understand what my point is. It is not the meeting that’s important. It is the Lord’s leading in providing it that is important.
I don’t judge why or how often you meet. If you are doing as the Lord leads you and have opportunity, that’s great. Glad to see you don’t do as the IC does. I’m afraid, I’ve seen several who seek the same thing the IC offers only in a home. So what’s the point? And that was the type of compromise I speak of.
As for the elders, I stay away from that debate as the men love to argue on that one. I see elders in a very similar role to the head of the house or head of the house church under Christ as a servant and provider.
quote:I was making the case for not giving up on or hardening your heart to the fact that God may wish you to be in a gathering and thus will lead you to a gathering. I just sense a lot of resistance to the idea and thus God could have His desire for you to meet this way and you reject His will.
I have totally given up my desire for such; but if God makes the opportunity I would. It has to be of God and not of my own selfish desires. Also it has to be in agreement with my head of the house and not just me.
quote:Just don't reject that the scriptures do deal with larger gatherings.
Boy, it seems we both misunderstood each other. I thought I was clear that the scripture did deal with how to act in a larger meeting; just not how often. BTW, I’m glad I misunderstood you for we are not so different are we?
quote:Continue seeking the Lord and he will provide all you need in the family and outside the family if He sees fit...that is for sure.
I’m sure of that! He will do that for each of his children in little groups and big groups.
Truelove,
Thanks for sharing that beautiful testimony of how the Lord can and does bring everything together in his own way and own time.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
truelove
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So there you have it.... B Miller has a group of believers that he meets with more often than a one time meeting and they have total freedom apart from the control of men and he feels wonderful about that and that is what God has provided for him. Faith had a one time experience with a nurse and they prayed and cried and shared together, and maybe Faith has had other one-time meetings with one other individual at different times and that was wonderful for her and she felt that God provided that for her. And I meet with my family on a daily basis and my distant relative maybe 1 or 2 times a year, and my family meets with several other families from a different town in a larger group in a home once a year (kind of like a family reunion), and then we have a group who we used to meet with once a month in our home at our old residence and no longer do because we moved, but we try to visit with them or meet with them once every few months to nurture our relationships rather than let them fall away, and it is in Christ, because we all are in Christ, so it just is...and then there are the people we meet that are only one timers but we brought something to that moment, something of our life in Christ. And once again I say, "where two or more are gathered in my name there am I in the midst of them".. What more should we add? What more could we want? There are different members to the Body, but one Body... and because of that there are differences. God is creative... He created the Universe. Do we honestly think that His creativity can be contained into one way of doing something? or not? I can't imagine it.. In our finite minds we attempt to put Him in a neatly packaged box so we can say we understand fully. We'll all know the complete truth someday and honestly I don't think we'll be saying, "I was right". So, for what it matters here on earth, "Forgive me if I am wrong"!... but right now I have a peace from God that I won't trade for anything in this world.... Blessings and peace!
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Great conclusion to the matter truelove! I believe I see a little more clearly some things and for that I am thankful to David, truelove, and Faith. Thanks to all of you, whom I have never met but have a kindred in Christ, for sharing your thoughts and your lives on this matter. Maybe one day when there is a new heaven and a new earth we will meet...and possibly "regularly"!
posted
Truelove said it well. For myself, there are times of meeting with just 2 or 3 family and more on occasion. There has been many one time meetings with Christians at just the needed time for me or for them. However, the times I went seeking for meetings, things never worked out. I have concluded myself that the size or regularity doesn’t matter. What matters is the fellowship in Christ and his provision of that fellowship. BTW, I also would say that sometimes our fellowship is not even in person but by letter or internet as well. Let us encourage each other whenever and where ever we happen to have the opportunity.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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The NT wasn't written as an indexed manual of theology but rather as biography, history, and letters. What did those on the receiving end of the letter to the Hebrews have in mind when they heard it read? They would have encountered a form of this greek word for assembling: sunagoge.
Now, was there a particular and repeatable time frame brought into view whenever this word came up in the Jewish world? Yes.
Luke 4:16 And Jesus came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his CUSTOM was, he went into the SYNAGOGUE on the SABBATH DAY, and stood up for to read.
Mark 1:21 They went to Capernaum, and when the SABBATH came, Jesus went into the SYNAGOGUE and began to teach.
Coincidence? Hardly. It was the customary thing when Hebrews was written to make the association of synagogue and sabbath. Christians would later part company with the Jewish synagogues but there is no reason to think that they entered a new era of no longer meeting at regular and set intervals.
Acts 18:4 EVERY Sabbath he (Paul) reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
Acts 13:14-15 From Perga they went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the synagogue and sat down. After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue rulers sent word to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have a message of encouragement for the people, please speak."
Acts 13:42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things ON THE NEXT Sabbath.
Since the synagogue meetings were associated with a regular weekly event, I doubt if there were any debates about what the writer of Hebrews could have meant when he warned them not to forsake their synagogue-ing. So, am I suggesting that a weekly meeting is binding upon the saints today? Nope, but it looks as if the meetings were to be frequent just as before. Elsewhere, in Acts, we see daily meetings. Prescriptive or descriptive?
If another frequency other than daily or weekly works best for your family or group, so be it. God knows your hearts. Think nothing of it.
Likewise, a Christian may desire to tithe because the Jews did so but I wouldn't legislate that either. I don't see that one size fits all in the matter nor that we need take all our queue's from the Jews. Jesus once praised a woman who gave all!
I've been told that there are about 150 one-anothering passages. Most are addressed to the church not merely to the family. These would demand some kind of regularity and frequency.
The Jewish calendar did indeed have yearly social events, carefully identifiable as certain feasts or festivals. The regular "when you come together" dinner/encouragement meeting described here isn't in the lists of yearly events:
1 Corinthians 14:26- When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.
I don't happen to believe that human nature has changed much since the epistle to the Hebrews went out. Some believers in our own day just don't have much interest in gathering in Jesus' name. Life in their private little cozy cocoon is just too much fun.
Sad to say, several large house churches have split over this very issue. One in AL folded over whether or not to meet at all. "Just be the church."
One in FL folded when the leaders thought everyone should live in the same neighborhood in order meet every day. Sighhhh.
A fascinating topic this is.
truelove
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B Miller wrote: I believe I see a little more clearly some things and for that I am thankful to David, truelove, and Faith.
my response: I love how that happens. It's been good for me as well too. Has certainly cleared up some things for me and reinforced some of my own deep understandings and convictions. Iron sharpening iron... It's great, especially when it is done in love, humility, and the spirit of one anothering as we see encouraged and modeled many times in the Scriptures by Jesus, Paul, and others.
B Miller wrote: Maybe one day when there is a new heaven and a new earth we will meet...and possibly "regularly"!
my response: Now, that is something to think about and look forward to isn't it, especially if we long for that right now. I have a strong feeling (my own, just an opinion and not doctrine) the regularly may just mean uninterrupted and constant.
Faith wrote: There has been many one time meetings with Christians at just the needed time for me or for them. What matters is the fellowship in Christ and his provision of that fellowship.
my response: I love how that happens too! and we appreciate those times don't we when there is a true time of fellowship and we know and we know that it was His provision for that fellowship... Gives such a filling of joy and peace, and even leaving you in a grateful and thankful state, often times to the point of just being in awe. I get weepy and just so thankful, sometimes I'll have to get by myself and let my tears roll and then I just repeat over and over because nothing else fits what I'm feeling at that time, "thank you so much Jesus, thank you, thank you...and just soak up His presence, and His great love for me," Is it Jehovah Jirah - the Provider...? I think there is a song for that.
D Anderson wrote: Sad to say, several large house churches have split over this very issue. One in AL folded over whether or not to meet at all. "Just be the church."
my response: How sad! Yes the word Ekklesia does seem to be a hard concept for many to grasp and certainly the idea of "being" what you are and not going to what you are is difficult for many, especially when that's all they've know is going to church since they were saved. I think it was Wayne Jacobson who wrote in his book "One Anothering", "Asking me where I go to church is like asking me does Wayne Jacobson go to Wayne Jacobson..for if I am the ekklesia (Gr)church(eng), so how can I go to church?.."
I guess we all must be convinced of what we believe to be true in our own minds.. and we don't have to worry about convincing others, I like the idea of sharing, and keep forceful out of it. That falls more in line with what love is... patient, kind, forgiving, etc. etc. Thank God for His mercies that are new every morning, for His faithfulness, for His Compassion, For His love, His dieing love, for His Grace, that we can rest in knowing that He looks upon the Heart and not the outward appearance of man and these attributes are there when we make honest mistakes. He is that good and He is the Shepherd of my heart... I'm so glad, because I can't think of anyone that could do a better job of caring for my heart, including myself...
Faith wrote: BTW, I also would say that sometimes our fellowship is not even in person but by letter or internet as well. Let us encourage each other whenever and where ever we happen to have the opportunity.
my response: Yes, and why couldn't it be, it's just another vehicle for sharing what's in our hearts with others. I have this cute little visual of people gathering in cyberspace. I was telling someone in my life awhile back about something I had shared on a list with others and they with me and I was just smiling from ear to ear and really just joyful for the opportunities for sharing with others that our open to us because of modern technology. So this person made a fist with a hand to represent a heart and would tighten it and then loosen it like a beating heart. And so I have this little visual of all these beating heart's given to Christ hanging in space, just beating (ie..the beating is the relating to one another). It's just kind of comical and cute and thought you might get a chuckle out of it..
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