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After I posted some questions for Chad I realized I'd REALLY like to ask EVERYONE here the same questions.
More importantly, I'm not sure who here is actually "on board" with the house church vision, and who is here seeking or just here for the fellowship or just lurking.
Here are some questions to get some discussion started. PLEASE tell us something, no matter who you are, if you read this.
What is your interest in house church? Are you attending a "Legacy Church" (IC) instead of or in addition to some kind of small group?
If you are involved in an organic/small group/house church, then:
How do you typically meet? How often? What locations? Does it greatly vary from week to week, or have you settled into a routine, more or less?
What expressions of body life have you found, in terms of reaching others, both believers with the HC vision and and not-yet-believers with the gospel?
How do you manage conflict, such as personality clashes, people who don't share the same vision, or misunderstandings?
Have you grown beyond the original group that started?
Does the fellowship largely share anything in common beyond house church, such as lifestyle, talents, hobbies or family situations? Is there something that ties the group together?
Blessings to you, Glory to Him, Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
quote:Originally posted by Laurie Ann: After I posted some questions for Chad I realized I'd REALLY like to ask EVERYONE here the same questions.
More importantly, I'm not sure who here is actually "on board" with the house church vision, and who is here seeking or just here for the fellowship or just lurking.
Here are some questions to get some discussion started. PLEASE tell us something, no matter who you are, if you read this.
What is your interest in house church? Are you attending a "Legacy Church" (IC) instead of or in addition to some kind of small group?
A: We have completely left Legacy Church. We are committed to being as literal as humanly possible in discovering and doing what the NT says about gathering and spreading the gospel.
quote:If you are involved in an organic/small group/house church, then:
How do you typically meet? How often? What locations? Does it greatly vary from week to week, or have you settled into a routine, more or less?
A: One family has open house on Fridays, always subject to cancellation based on "real life", or other opportunities. There is a larger group of people who share values and do get-togethers but most are still connected with two Legacy churches.
quote:What expressions of body life have you found, in terms of reaching others, both believers with the HC vision and and not-yet-believers with the gospel?
A: We spend time with as many different people as possible, and try to be at home as much as possible, so that our neighbors and acquaintances will always find us "at home and available" to meet needs, to have fellowship. We pray daily for our neighbors by name, and for the families in our circle, to have opportunities to share.
quote:How do you manage conflict, such as personality clashes, people who don't share the same vision, or misunderstandings?
A: We emphasize "obedience to Christ" and pointing to the Word as the final authority. We practice the "three tiers of obedience" - 1. Christ's commands are non-negotiable 2. Apostolic norms are allowable, based on the consent of the assembly 3. Traditions are individual choice and ought not be forced on others.
quote:Have you grown beyond the original group that started?
A: A second weekly open house will begin this month. We have connected with another network we meet with occasionally and are strategizing for outreach with.
quote: Does the fellowship largely share anything in common beyond house church, such as lifestyle, talents, hobbies or family situations? Is there something that ties the group together?
A: Most of the Christians our group are homesteading home school families. Most of us are musical. We all have missions vision, and an interest in hospitality. The Celtic Way of Evangelism is something we aspire to long-term.
quote: Blessings to you, Glory to Him, Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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We have started a house church. We had a similar version two years ago, and then put it on hold when we moved. Initially, we were more attached to a church, although many other denominations attended. We detached completely from the denominational church last year ( a wonderfully freeing expereince, which all home church members understand). Our home church had grown, almost to the point of needing two meeting times. We met every other Friday evening.
Currently, we are meeting on Sundays, but this may change, as it doesn't matter other than what is best for the members. Again, we are not opposed to meeting more than once weekly. The early Chuch met daily, and we can too (almost- due to work schedule). We begin with prayer, simple, which allows forthose who are unsure how to pray, an example of just talking earnestly to God. Our church does have a facilitator, who will beging with a scripture passage or even a broader topic. This helps to get things going. The facilitator also helps to keep the discussion on focus, and helps to negotiate conflictng views. This greatly helps to bring views to a common ground (i.e. love of neighbor, etc.) and then allows for the Spirit to guide people. The point to our church is always to help the members to live a more powerful life, stronger in the Lord, more fruitful more joyful and overall just more victorious, praise God.
We have found that giving members 3x5 cards and suggesting they write down questions or problem areas and then bringing them back, is a good way of discussing relevant topics. SOmetimes members may think their questions are to simple or be embarrased, and the cards worked great.
We try to start on time, most comming early for some fellowship, and almost all stay afterwards, enjoying even greater fun after church than before. (The Spirit lingers in the midst.) We end on time too. It leaves a good starting point next time, and allows members who need to leave on time, the ability to do so without feeling bad or like they missed something.
We are non-denominational, from evangelic to catholic (so far in our group), worship Christ as Lord, use God's word as authority and discuss Its impact on our lives and how we should live the Word all in love.
Hope this is helpful. Always looking for new ideas that will help us grow in the Grace of our Lord and help us to share the Gospel, and allow It do Its work on the heart. Overlook spelling please, I type faster than I spell.
-------------------- And everything, whatever you do in word or in work, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus,
I am no longer involved in house church except for continuing here on this site. I have tried to join other house churches but none presented themselves. I am not able to establish one in my home because my wife views them negatively--having Catholic roots. When I home churched with another small group she viewed our group as a cult. I later did discover that the leader had an agenda.
I am attending a very small church in a small community of only 2000 in Northern Virginia. Because the area is small there are few opportunities to earn money to support a family. For this reason, many young people move to the bigger cities to find work in their respective fields. The population that is left seems to be comprised mostly of retired persons. Our group reflects the same demographics.
While being far from perfect, I am convinced that this world-wide, organized church is probably the closest thing to Christ's ideal for his church on this earth. The members cooperatively support world-wide missionary efforts to give the gospel to every person through tithes and offerings. But I fully understand the problems in the churches and why house churches are growing in numbers. I am just saying that though my church has their share of interpersonal difficulties I am not seeing the kind of troubles others are experiencing and relating.
So many of the things espoused here as desirable are fulfilled in my church. Though we do collect tithes and offerings which support the pastors, mission fields, and schools and we do build and meet in humble houses of worship rather than in private homes--though church planting usually starts in homes or office spaces until a group out-grows the space and needs to build a specific building. There are many houses of worship being built all the time for groups who are meeting under trees and in groves because they have out-grown their space. But the buildings are far from being showy. They are sturdy and comfortable but not lavish.
Another example of needing to build a house of worship... one group was meeting in a dance hall (a girly show place). They were eager to get out!
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I certainly do not feel every church and church goer is bad, wrong or whatever. There are a few that are doing what they are supposed to be doing as commanded by Christ. I know a wonderful pastor in rural southern New York who is just the most serving and dedicated man of God. His church is reaching out, evangelizing, serving, growing, healing the whole works. I wish his denomination would learn from him, because other churces of the same denomination are about as opposite as they can get from this little church in New York.
One problem that I have recently seen increase is that young people especially look at professing Christians, and say if that is what being a Christian is like, no thank you. I really hurt for those who have been so long in churches and live weak, petty minded lives with a superficial Christianity. The kind that Jesus said He would rather them be cold. I am truely afraid for them that they may hear from Jesus, "I don't know you".
Glad you have found a good church and glad you here with us on the site, jqlogan.
-------------------- And everything, whatever you do in word or in work, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus,
I understand that about half of the world's people now live in cities and the trend doesn't seem to be changing. Many communities, towns, and cities have no more land readily available for church buildings of any sort.
In many countries, folks are too poor to build buildings of any sort. It isn't even a choice.
If there is an eternity after this life, time is running out NOW for hundreds of millions. With these facts in view, I cannot understand why more Christians are not seeking to promote forms which are readily able to exist and multiply "from house to house."
What God, I believe, has commanded is that every Christian older one (elder) is to be a shepherd. See Acts 20 and 1 Peter 5, etc. I feel that the one pastor system can and usually does obstruct such an arrangement.
I just found an old book on this very subject and will try to post it very soon. I'll let you know.
I don't know that there is a lack of room, but I recently heard of a city mayor who blocked the sale of city property to a church because they did not want to lose the tax revenues. The church group wants to buy an entire plaza (covered shopping mall) that, due to crime, is nearly vacant and has been for years. I believe it happened in Richmond, Virginia and the site in question was Cloverleaf Mall. Sears and JCPenney pulled out in the last year or two.
The cities are getting really bad. Have you ever been to a grocery store with a full-time police officer (maybe two) were on duty. I am not talking security guard. I am saying city police officer. I've been to them in Richmond, Virginia. Eventually, this very nice store closed and I believe it was due to shoplifting.
Has anyone else noticed the wave of crime spreading through our cities? I can see it spreading out in Richmond by watching the store closings--even entire shopping malls. The above mentioned Cloverleaf Mall had a number of shootings that occurred and I think people were afraid to go there any longer.
BTW, Richmond, Virginia is very high, per capita, in crime. Higher than New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. Of course, although I worked there I built my home 90 miles away! And, 90 miles away from D.C.
I am no longer involved in house church except for continuing here on this site. I have tried to join other house churches but none presented themselves. I am not able to establish one in my home because my wife views them negatively--having Catholic roots. When I home churched with another small group she viewed our group as a cult. I later did discover that the leader had an agenda.
That is very hard, jq. It is very sweet that your concern for your wife is a primary consideration for you. It is very sad that there was a leader in the one group you participated in.
But even saying, "join house church" is an misrepresentation of God's kingdom. You can't "join" the kingdom of God except by becoming a believer. From then on you ARE the church - you don't "join" one. If you are at my house, or if we are at the beach Boom - the Kingdom of God - if we talk about Jesus (and who can help it once you have met Him?).
You have said that your church is very small. Are you and your wife able to practice hospitality and have Acts 2:42 ministry in your home? If so, then that is the Kingdom of God among us. In that case, you can be like Jesus, seeing the "religious social club" you are part of as a recruiting place for the true Kingdom of God.
If there is a "leader" lording over the families others see cultism (and probably correctly). We do Acts 2:42 with people all the time - and they don't know it unless we tell them! We eat, we talk, we pray - usually briefly and personally-- and we talk about some Kingdom principle, and it's done - breaking of bread, fellowship, prayer, apostle's teaching. Look again at Jesus at the house of Simon. That's it and that's all.
We do build and meet in humble houses of worship rather than in private homes... They are sturdy and comfortable but not lavish... Another example of needing to build a house of worship... one group was meeting in a dance hall (a girly show place). They were eager to get out!
This still raises the question of "why are we building buildings or meeting in non-home buildings at all?" when God said we were not to build any place of worship except the one at Jerusalem. I realize that you are subject to others in this, but your arguments continue to sound like you have not grasped this one thing - that the kingdom of God is my family in my house, and sending a couple of people from my house to your house to spread the good news, going to a public venue to invite people to meet God. Public meetings in the apostolic church were held in places where the unconverted were -- not in special places the unconverted could be "dragged to" to tell them about the Kingdom. Unconverted people were in their homes, in the synagogues, by the sea or at the temple, so Jesus went there. He didn't allow any particular place to become associated with the message! "The Kingdom of God is HERE - in you!" There were to be no shrines anymore. Isn't a church a shrine? In every negative sense?
And is that perhaps why, in the apostolic era "a great persecution broke out" scattering the disciples -- because they were getting a bit too attached to the place? We are also in that danger.
Blessings! Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
It seems you are still trying to convince me that I am wrong and you are right. I understand the principle that the people make up the body of Christ and are therefore the church rather than the building being the church. In fact, I believe this prinicple and practice it as well. Therefore, the place where I worship can be any place set aside for that purpose. It matters not that I meet in a private home or in a public house of worship. After all, both of them had to be built, and both are made from similar materials, and both are rightly called buildings, and neither is the church.
But it does seem that you regard your home as the church because it has become essential to your worship. It is as though you cannot "be church" outside of your home. So if I judge rightly I am more at liberty than you, though you claim to be at greater liberty than I.
In conversation after conversation among the "house church" church the subject of meeting in homes take top priority and in my viewpoint appears to be the main tenant of doctrinal belief. It has almost become your creed to the point that one must meet in a home or else they are not doing it correctly. All this when scripture is silent in regard to any commandment from our Lord to do so.
One thing is certain; it does set them apart from those who meet primarily in public places of worship. If there were no homes to meet in then it seems the "house church" church would cease to exist. I think we need to accept it for what it is without trying to make the place an essential doctrine. It is simply that some can no longer meet in their former places of worship because of conscience. Because they still desire the comforts of a building they choose to meet in their homes. Thus, the "movement" has been termed "house church." We should not attach any other strings to it. It has no significance other than what I have said. If you desire to be obedient to Christ then keep his commandments as he has instructed us to do if we wish to show we love him.
I believe that someone with a hidden agenda is trying to consolidate the dispersion into an identifiable group that they can somehow claim as their following. Whoever this may be is trying to make meeting in homes essential to correct worship so they can command others to follow them. I believe they are the ones who have strung verses together in an attempt to doctrinalize meeting in homes. Beware of such people! They wish to control you. Soon they will start publicizing numbers in a boastful fashion and organize meetings for the purpose of creating a larger organization.
These are my opinions and I hope I am wrong in that I hope the home church remains pure until Christ is ready to bring them together in unity. I do not trust the pastors who preach false things nor do I wish for people to be deceived by them. It is therefore my opinion that it is better for these little churches to meet and study scripture for themselves with the aid of the Holy Spirit and apart from the influence of these wolves. This is what I will be praying for with regard to the home church. But I would never tell a person that they must attend my church or must meet in a home in order to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. That is not the gospel of Christ.
So, overall, I am in favor of meeting in home for church if according to conscience. If you have seen the wordliness in the churches and have come out to be separate and to walk more closely with God then you have come out for the right reason. The real call to come out will be one that exposes the false doctrines of the churches and convicts souls that they cannot walk wholely with God while embracing these abominations.
quote: Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
There is no soul convicting force from the Holy Spirit to lead people out of the churches simply because the early churches met in homes. Their situation was purely circumstantial. They met privately for fear of the Jews and persecution.
Do you have other thoughts on how the churches are corrupt and why people need to leave them? What do you see as being their greatest lies and sins?
You read a good deal of what I (and others on this forum) say through a filter of the 80's "IC format in a house", the house church movement you experienced, rather than seeing how much has changed since then, how we have drilled down to a much more scriptural understanding of what Jesus told us to do, and what Paul outlined in his letters as the normative life of the believer.
My leaving the IC was not because of worldliness, budget problemss, too loud music or any of the 100's of other reasons that malcontents leave church. I wan't malcontent - I was fruitless and the "empty womb cried out" that I would figure out how to do things the Jesus Way that results in "hundredfold increase" or die in the attempt!
I left because I stepped back and read what the Bible said, for myself, and realized that everything I had been doing for 25 years was preventing me from obeying what Jesus very clearly told us to do. It was the dead traditions of the pharisees. It was letting the professional obey Christ's commands while I paid him to do it, instead of obeying for myself.
"Public places of worship" is forbidden in scripture. I can see why - no matter how many times people chant "the church isn't the building" the place takes on importance, and it walls our target group OUT of the kingdom by creating a Religion. James said, Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. In other words, "religious ritual" has no place in the life of a believer.
I'm not saying my home is essential to worship - quite the opposite. We are no longer bound to a place at all. We are the church every minute of every day - and I never have to say, "I'm sorry, neighbor, you are going to have to get that hay in by yourself because I've got to get to church!" Or, "Hold that hysteria for after church, Sis - I've got to be on the platform in five minutes." Yuck!
And please tell me how there could "cease to be" homes to meet in? I really think that was why Jesus made the household the ekklesia unit - if we live in caves, apartments, catacombs or castles or a cardboard shack on the dump, "worship in Spirit and in Truth" is easily done. Where we eat is where we worship. But, if I need a certain place and time and an organ and liturgy and professional clergy then, like the church in Albania during the Soviet repression, I may only have church "once a year on Easter" when a priest holds a secret meeting, smuggling all the equipment necessary to that model.
" They met privately for fear of the Jews and persecution." Not for all 300 years that household worship was the norm. This was brief moments here and there, which slowed down their public evangelism. I believe Nero's longest persecution lasted less than 2 years.
Try to take off the filter, try to stop adding things to what I say, and really read what I'm literally saying. We are trying to Completely obey what Jesus told us to do. It's not about "not doing what he didn't tell us not to do" which is what you keep harping on. He didn't forbid us to build buildings - he told us what to do, which clearly eliminated the possiblity of building buildings!
You talked about "pastors" as wolves", but Jesus warned us against "false prophets" who are wolves. A head of household taking care of his family and obeying the commandments of God can't easily turn wolf. But as long as you think that the biblical word "pastor" refers to what modern churches call "pastor" then you are still missing a good deal of what Jesus was establishing. Cornelius was the pastor of his group - which included his family, servants, soldiers and neighbors. He no doubt helped those who had other households get started as pastors in their homes as well.
My husband, as the pastor of our family, has the responsibility to evaluate what self-promoting teachers, prophets, apostles and evangelists say to his family as to whether it meets biblical standards. So, when a pro clergyman says, " 'Bring your tithes into the storehouse' means 'give it to ME'", we can search out the scriptures for ourselves and dismiss that man as a false speaker for God. However, if we have allowed another man, because he attended an institution (where's the biblical norm for that?) to put himself in Authority over us, and we have to conform to what that person says, then my husband fails his responsibility as the family shepherd, to protect us from "wolves".
Where are you having these conversations where "someone with a hidden agenda is trying to consolidate the dispersion" and "meeting in homes take top priority and in my viewpoint appears to be the main tenant [sic] of doctrinal belief"? When we get gather, the place we are gathering is of such small importance, because we are so busy doing Acts 2:42 and reporting the great things God is giving us in his Word and the wonderful things we are seeing in our lives that arguing about our meeting place would be very silly. Yes, it comes up with people who are still trying to "have it both ways" but I am happy to report that one by one those people are being Set Free and coming into the Kingdom - which makes me so happy because we are loving each other every day in many ways instead of "from 10:45-12:15 on Sundays" by sitting next to each other in uncomfortable chairs and listening to a wolf tell us what to think. Why is he a wolf? He makes his living from fleecing the sheep. Sad, but true - and I say that having a great love for every "pastor" we have ever had. It wasn't them - it was the broken model!
Blessings. Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
Thank you for clearing up a few things. I guess what caught my attention were these two comments you made.
1) God said we were not to build any place of worship except the one at Jerusalem.
2) the kingdom of God is my family in my house
First, I don't find point one in scripture. Can you help?
Second, did you intend to say "my family in my house belongs to the kingdom of God", or did you intend to place the emphasis on houses? BTW, I don't find this in scripture either. Jesus did give several examples of "the kingdom of God" but I don't believe this was one.
Don't misunderstand me. While I am not against folks meeting as the church in their homes I am against turning the act of meeting in homes into a requirement instead of letting all things be done from a faith in Jesus that works by love. Thus, our ministry can be to all people teaching them to follow Jesus without ever suggesting that they leave the IC for a home church experience. Now, should they express a desire to leave the IC but are confused as to what they can do, then it would be quite reasonable to tell them that meeting as a church in their home would not be disobedient to Jesus. And, you can even precipitate the desire to leave the IC in much the way you have approached me here in your last post. Ask if they are serving Jesus fully and if they desire to. But don't suggest that they leave the IC in order to comply with the commands of Jesus. That would be wrong. (I think you disagree with me on this last point. Perhaps you could send me some information that convinced you by private message.)
Regardless of what it is--house churching, circumcision, Sabbath, temperance, keeping the commandments of God-- if it is not done because of our love for Jesus then it profits nothing. Paul could very well have been heard saying today, "House churching is nothing, IC is nothing. What is important is obeying God." This obedience to Jesus must be our motivation in everything. And, I think Jesus said for us to show our love by obedience (submitting our wills to his) when he said, "If you love me, [then] keep my commandments."
There is no commandment as to where we are to meet. Nor is there any prohibition on where we can meet. We are to worship God is spirit and in truth. There is no place we can go where God is not present. Thus, we can worship God anywhere, anytime, even in jail. Why we fabricate our own ideas about what God requires of us is hard to understand while at the same time we ignore the plainest commandments in scripture.
Tell me, did I misunderstand you or are you contending that meeting is homes is the only Biblical model and is the only way a person can truthfully serve Jesus? Meeting as a larger group in a public house of worship does not preclude anyone from being hospitable in their home or entertaining strangers or anything else that I can tell. Do the IC leaders teach that no one is to be Christian outside of the 1 hour service on Sunday or is that just indifference?
"The love of Christ constraineth us" -- because he gave his life for us.
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I believe we have strayed from the original question on the board, which basically comes down to offering help, suggestions and encouragement to those seeking a closer and more meaningful relationship with Christ.
Certainly there is scripture to support the house church type of gathering in the name of Jesus. Families gathering together in a larger building (call it what you want) is not un-Christian, against Christ or a movement of antiChrist.
The organized church does have its faults. The church itself recognizes that and does try to correct itself. Through wonderful magazines and web sites, the problems are listed and suggestions for improvements are listed. We do not need to debate this. We all have seen and heard of some sort of problem small, big and in-between in the denominational church. We do not need to debate this. Further, I'm quite sure that the house-church gathering will also see similar problems. I'm positive that there is a house church out there that has wrong motives, is a wolf, has scripture all wrong and worshiping its meeting and it's own rituals instead of worshiping Jesus.
I see two very spiritual people with a desire to worship God in truth, spirit and with all, who are standing on opposite sides of the fence. They will know us by our love. We need to come together to help encourage one another. To lift one another up and exchange ideas and life lessons to bring us closer to each other and closer to God. Each of us has something to offer each other and offer God. A fresh perspective can ease or encourage my walk or even get me back going in the right direction or another path that is closer in my walk with Jesus.
The debates (and worse) between church members and between denominations is something that certainly has caused many to walk away from church in any form, and some to walk away from God altogether. We need to get away from telling (judging) people in that their worship is wrong, the way they hold home church is wrong, their music is wrong etc. Again, we need to concentrate on encouraging others. If I state what I do i.e. how I meet to worship and fellowship and study God's word, and why, then one seeking God will see the truth in what I do. This is how they will grow, not like me but how God has chosen for them. For example, I may read a book (Called to be Holy), be enlightened, prayerfully study God's word in comparison to the book, and alter, change, tweek, etc my walk in the light. When we love and encourage one another, we establish an environment for personal growth, which is the job of the Holy Spirit, not me. I may be good but not that good. (smile at this point). Love.
-------------------- And everything, whatever you do in word or in work, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus,
Truly, church issues, are not going to be resolved suddenly - unless Jesus comes back. What ones does in the mean time will therefore vary. That is not to say that these issues are merely optional with regard to Scriptures and obedience to God.
Church is not an end in itself but rather a means to an end - that Jesus would be preeminent in all (things and persons) and that all Christians would love one another.
A person may have dynamic profession of faith but may actually not be in possesion of faith. Also, a person may have little confidence and assurance and yet have true faith. Likewise, a person may have perfect knowledge of how and where to meet yet be living in secret for Satan.
So, some are better than their beiefs - others have beliefs which are better than their own experiences.
D Allen, thank you for your reminder to love one another.
Now the end of the commandment is love out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned. 1 Timothy 1:5
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D Allen, you are so right and I have certainly been thinking that this topic has been - except for you - a total washout as far as finding out what I want to know: "What is God doing in _your_ faith community!"
I will answer dear jq's specific questions, and then hope that others will pop in to answer the original question!
1. The One Place of Worship Dt. 12, especially the last verse here: 1 These are the decrees and laws you must be careful to follow in the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess—as long as you live in the land. 2 Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains and on the hills and under every spreading tree where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. 3 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.
4 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way. 5 But you are to seek the place the LORD your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; 6 there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. 7 There, in the presence of the LORD your God, you and your families shall eat and shall rejoice in everything you have put your hand to, because the LORD your God has blessed you.
8 You are not to do as we do here today, everyone as he sees fit, 9 since you have not yet reached the resting place and the inheritance the LORD your God is giving you. 10 But you will cross the Jordan and settle in the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, and he will give you rest from all your enemies around you so that you will live in safety. 11 Then to the place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name—there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the LORD. 12 And there rejoice before the LORD your God, you, your sons and daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns, who have no allotment or inheritance of their own. 13 Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. 14 Offer them only at the place the LORD will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.
Note: I especially love this passage because of what it says to do with your tithes, "Have a giant party with your household". I never heard THAT in a sermon : ) Also, I mention that reading this passage used to always give me the Heebie-Jeebies until I discovered the apostolic pattern! I'd read it and look at the building we worshipped in (and offered our "sacrifice of praise" in) and think, Uh, Oh!
2. The basic unit of the Kingdom of God, beginning in Genesis 1:1 is the family. We see in Exodus through Deuteronomy what God established when he had "A blank slate" to work with: a nation of clans, each minding its own business and knowing God's laws for themselves, with natural leaders emerging (commonly called "judges") to manage crime and conflict.
Now, there is a need for community for those who have no family. So, God promises to "set the lonely in families". Not in institutions.
When I say "My house" I'm meaning it in the sense Joshua used at: "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord". We are adequate unto ourselves in one sense, but we are connected to every other Kingdom believer as well in a meaningful way. I don't need to "own" the other families we fellowship - but we can speak life into one another's families as we serve the Lord together.
I will, however, maintain that "house" is the simplest, therefore the most reproducible, place for us to gather. Not the only, just the best!
I appreciate both D's stepping in. It always helps to get the counsel of others. This is being the church online.
LA, I can accept that the house church experience is the best for you to express your fruits. Others, such as myself who have no children, may wish to meet with a larger group to have opportunity to minister to a larger body. Let's end it there.
I was very surprised that you quoted OT scripture and applied that to a Gentile such as myself. I am curious to know and would be most grateful if you would explain how you justify doing so. You can send me a private message or start a new topic so we can either put this one to rest or get it back on track.
Thanks for listening and sharing.
Douglas
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what I want to know: "What is God doing in _your_ faith community!" re some questions to get some discussion started. PLEASE tell us something, no matter who you are, if you read this.
Hi from Eastern Iowa! I just read this series of comments, plus several under the introduction section of the website..just signed up to access the site this past week...so I've not had a chance to really get a feel for all of you that contribute.Since I have a couple of minutes rather than just "lurk", I wanted to tell you just a little about our fellowship currently. We currently meet weekly with another couple, take turns hosting, about every 2 to 3 months will take a break and "connect" with a local traditional church body we used to be a part of because we have some Christian relationships I like to stay connected with, sing with,etc. Our formatt is very spontaneous...typically, the first several minutes we will catch up on each other's weeks....share prayer requests, read something someone has brought that they wanted to share....usually one of us will bring something to share more instructional in nature, but honestly, that can vary widely in terms of what it is....we've been doing this formatt now for about 2 1/2 years...it is the most vibrant and spiritually nuturing times in all my years as a christian (I'm now 49, lights came on when I was 22)...Most of our children are now out of the home...but if they are here, they will join us, plus we have a neighbor who will occassionally join us...evangelistically speaking, we don't offically do anything as a group..my wife and I have a b and b in our home, which can create some natural opportunites to plant spiriutal seeds...we have a music festival in our barn each fall, which is an evangelistic bridge building event towards the neighborhood, plus it's a perfect setting to invite people you've met through the year and want to get to know better....I've been asked to each an evangelistic bible study in someone elses home a couple of times, had a chance to teach an intro to the bible at a local communitity college..bla bla bla..guess what I'm saying, is evangelism is such a part of the fabric of our lives, it doesn't have that "pressure" feeling it once had when I was a young Christian. Would love to hear if there is anyone else on this site in the eastern Iowa area as well. :-) DM
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I am new to the idea of home churching. I found out about this movement, from all places, on meetup.com. I was looking for alternatives to mainstream Christianity because of many hurtful experiences and the close-mindedness we found there. We have not found a home church to meet with, but have made some email contacts which will hopefully get us hooked up with some like-minded folk.
We left the IC we had been attending about 6 months ago, so it's been just my husband and me since then. We do have other friends we fellowship with, but they are all out of towners and all still attend IC.
Anyway, I am so thankful that this site is here, and I have enjoyed reading all your comments and learning from your experiences.
Thanks for sharing where you are in your respective journeys! It truly is a journey, one step at a time, one revelation at a time, one "letting go" at a time.
Every time I think I've gotten as far outside the box as possible, I see some area in my life where something doesn't fit.
This past week our little community had a death in one of the families. After the funeral, I realized we really haven't talked about that rite.
The family definitely fell back on the familiar institution-controlled system, resulting in an institutional, antiseptic ritual with an IC pastor, piped-in music and everyone feeling uncomfortable the whole time. The young man who spoke a brief testimony should have been the one leading the whole thing - he had led the dear departed to Christ a few weeks ago. Was he not the true Shepherd in the case? But the family turned to their former "credential-holding pastor" - nice guy, but it was dead,dead,dead sounding. He's done a million of 'em, didn't know the young man, and was just fitting us into a time-slot in his day.
I realized that this may be one of the most important things to get our non-institutional mindset around - because EVERYBODY you care about comes to your funeral! THAT is an opportunity to model both Acts 2:42 fellowship, and the LIFE we have, even in the midst of death, to those "without hope".
I want an old-fashioned funeral, where people come into the home of the bereaved and laugh and cry over memories, eat comfort food, and pray for one another. Perhaps that is the bit of Irish in me, but the current way of doing things was so heartless and hard and impersonal. I couldn't believe our family wasn't asked to do music - I assumed that they must have had someone else, not that they'd play a CD! I should have known, since the only wedding we've attended here in Churchianity-land also featured playing a CD rather than having someone play and sing. What's up with That?? Some of the most talented gospel singers in the world come from here. We prefer technology? (don't get me started (#,#)
I'm even interested in finding out about "Green Burial", and seeing if we can't have our own burial ground, so we can just be buried in a pine box without chemicals.
Anybody have info on that? Google doesn't work well on that - "green" and "burial" have way too many hits together because of all the cemetaries with "green" in the title!
That's what God's doing in our community these days! Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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One of the greatest gifts Our Father gave us is the tacit approval of finding our own cultural comfort zone while living out His Kingdom on earth. Let me assay some answers to the original post:
quote:What is your interest in house church? Are you attending a "Legacy Church" (IC) instead of or in addition to some kind of small group?
We had been looking at doing something different for a long, long time. Called to minister the gospel, I always found myself a maverick, even when I tried hard to play the game, and by their rules. I managed to be ordained, but never quite called as pastor, serving instead in all the other staff roles at various times in Southern Baptist churches. We sojourned among other Bible-believing groups, at times. For us, house church is a practical choice. However, having studied the issue at length, I'm unlikely to ever become involved in an organization with any significant similarity to anything I've seen so far. I am utterly convinced all organization is a human thing, necessary but not itself holy. It's just a tool, and will be discarded when it wears out or the work changes. A key concept in our calling is being ready for just about anything, and fitting our organizational efforts to match the situation.
quote:How do you typically meet? How often? What locations? Does it greatly vary from week to week, or have you settled into a routine, more or less?
We currently meet Sunday mornings at 10 in our living room. We sit in chairs, chat a bit, then begin with prayer. We sing a few songs, then I present a Bible study. I most certainly entertain questions, and we discuss what to do about the lesson. Then we pray a commitment to it, and end. We are fully prepared to offer here, or lead elsewhere, any sort of faith gathering requested. Schedule is just a matter of comfort and convenience. So far, my wife and I typically pray together quite regularly on Wednesday evenings at the least. Again, it's comfortable; the timing has no other justification.
quote:What expressions of body life have you found, in terms of reaching others, both believers with the HC vision and and not-yet-believers with the gospel?
We haven't found any fellow travelers around here, yet. Folks from our previous IC affiliations know what we're up to, and few still call me for computer service (a long-standing ministry of mine), during which contacts we discuss HC. We're still praying and seeking a vision of what exactly this is for us. Part of what we do now we'll never let go of, but there's a great deal of uncertainty about the rest. Is this a rest-stop on the road? Is it the beginning of something more permanent? We don't know, yet. The vision is still fuzzy.
quote:How do you manage conflict, such as personality clashes, people who don't share the same vision, or misunderstandings?
Having extensive experience in this professionally, it's the easiest part for me. I've done more pastoral counseling than preaching since ordination in 1983. Most of it has been covered in the discussions of householder-as-leader, but I tend to lead by reflex when there's a vacuum. I'm very pastoral in the Old Testament sense. I've also got a lot of military experience to help in that, but with a lot more love and gentleness than the service taught me. Perhaps I could describe myself as "a strong patriarchal figure."
quote:Have you grown beyond the original group that started?
We've gone from two to four-or-more on a regular basis. Okay, that was meant to be funny. We are still trying to discern what the next move is, and we are starting without any community contacts. We'll cooperate with any one and any group who understands and accepts our convictions.
quote:Does the fellowship largely share anything in common beyond house church, such as lifestyle, talents, hobbies or family situations? Is there something that ties the group together?
Our work is currently not big enough to offer a meaningful answer. We're all family for now, and there's no children.
quote: I am utterly convinced all organization is a human thing, necessary but not itself holy. It's just a tool, and will be discarded when it wears out or the work changes.[/QB]
This is so crucial - except for the family, there is no institution that is truly ordained of God. The closer we stay to the family-as-kingdom-of-God, the more people will be drawn to how we live. I think.
We met with a couple today, and had an opportunity to discuss "how do we move past just not going to church anymore?" and we discussed some possibilities: - choosing a "target group" that we intend to try to "make disciples [of]" - being more social with believers we do know - praying for divine appointments with people ready for the message (what DAWN calls the 10:2B prayer: "Ask the Lord of the Harvest to send laborers...).
Other suggestions for things to put before the Lord as possible first steps?
Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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I cultivate what I hope is the Hebraic-biblical mindset, a particular form of Eastern-Mystical frame of reference and style of logic. I consider it the proper framework for understanding revelation; indeed, it's the setting God chose to reveal Himself, by no accident, if you ask me. Western analytical thinking serves well in the material world, but falls well short of grappling with higher truths. So I try to think organically, as it were.
Bear in mind, I have a distinct theology regarding evangelism. It centers on the idea we need not learn it, because it naturally flows from the presence of the Holy Spirit. If you know how to fall in love, or simply become mildly infatuated with someone, you know how to evangelize. This is no more than an extension of seeing the church body as a family bound in the Spirit, instead of by DNA/marriage. The Sword of the Spirit is our ability to love as Christ loves, based on the power of love, not how loveable the other is. The things you list are methods, but they need to fit the larger vision.
Choosing a target group works well if you read that as an extension of recognizing where you feel drawn by the Holy Spirit. Holding to my metaphor of falling in love, I realize as I look in the mirror, I am drawn more to one kind than another. When that has been cleansed and purified, it becomes recognition of whom I am called to reach.
Being more social to believers need not cause friction. In evangelism as in leading believers higher, we simply express the truth lovingly, and give God room to do the convincing. Some will inevitably ask you to press the case with them, because they can't get past some obstacle.
Divine appointments for me is less a prayer request and more an assumption of operation. I am utterly certain no meeting is by chance; all have a purpose which I need not necessarily know. Mine is to know how I should conduct myself.
Let me suggest you pray to understand "building a family" in the ancient sense of the extended household -- but of a household of faith. Picture the semi-nomadic herder types, who would see the family as the center of existence. Life is much slower than we imagine it now, and there are no exit ramps to some other focus in life, no place to run away. Bigger is better; bigger means more resources for better survival. New members were trained in the ways of the family, and everyone had a part in strengthening life. Then extend that to the spiritual family. Things didn't move that fast for the imaginary ancient household, and may not for your spiritual version of it. But, that never got in the way of clinging to the vision.
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E Hurst. I think I'll have to read and re-read your post to try to absorb it a little more. I sense there is experience there that I haven't tapped into yet that allow it to really hit home. Even if I understand what you are saying I feel like I don't really get it totally. I get that feeling from a lot of posts I read here - like, man these people are smart! Well, let's say wise, which can be more accurate. I meet with some guys every Friday and I find that the best choice for me is to listen and try to get in on what is being said and why it seems so heart felt. So my post here will be a little speed bump to a more complex conversation. Ha ha.
Laurie Ann and E Hurst: Your last two posts triggered something that we are in the middle of with our house church start. We are set to open our home next month and are grateful that we already have three other couples anxious to gather with us. Laurie Ann - I will be able to post a closer response to your original "Roll Call!" post after we get into it which I am looking forward to. I have spent the last few months appreciating the wealth of dialog here as we have been preparing our hearts for this.
My wife and I are in our 30's and we were discussing the other night with some friends not in their thirties (in case they read this - ha ha, or let's say older, smarter, and wiser than 30 in many ways) about our generation - call it Gen X. I was thinking how it is regaining the value of community and family - both their own and the family of God. When trying to share with my peers about what God has been teaching us it is definitely a slightly different perspective but also not far from what they are longing for (not everyone of course but in general).
The challenge for us now is the fact that we can only do so much explaining of what we think this gathering and lifestyle shift will look like. To really understand we have to just do it - trusting that God will give us the practical ways to live out the one another’s of the bible. In my inability to articulate the stuff going on in my brain with others I am able to get enough of it across to where they can actually say, yeah, I don't get what you're saying entirely but my spirit bears witness that I desire the same thing - meaning to grow deeper in my relationship with Christ and His body. Thankfully we have that elder representation already committed to gather with us to clear the fog a little. Even they have expressed how it has been so long for them - since the 70's and 80's that they haven't had the opportunity to gather in the HC format and how they have longed for it ever since.
Anyway, like I said, this is a little speed bump to throw in the mix somewhat in the vein of this thread. It's where I'm at so I found some nugget to grab onto to make it work into the thread. I may not have said it before but Laurie Ann your posts are much appreciated. The practical stuff hits home with me. The smart stuff I appreciate to. Ha ha.
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I'm flattered, DPoag. I like your choice of the word "absorb" because I believe that's the way it should work. Even if you don't get it all intellectually, that won't matter so much as exposure and absorption on another level. In my own learning experience, there are plenty of things I didn't get until much later. However, every time I did get it, the cognitive framework got bigger, more dense, and the next new thing was easier to absorb because I had a place to hang it.
A great many people struggle like you do, especially with my offbeat perspective. It's not native to our Western culture. Yet, as with all things I do in pressing the gospel truth, I know I'll mess it up. Most of the time I'll guess wrong about what my readers/listeners can grasp. Somehow, my Lord keeps making it work out. Some are driven away, but some always come back for more. I keep wondering why He drives me to teach and preach given my weaknesses, but I can't stop.
Friend, let me assure you the Kingdom is never in a hurry. Walk in the light you have. Whatever you believe you lack is just ahead, somewhere in the shadows where His footsteps lead. I'm often surprised, but never disappointed.
I think you are so much on the right track, in your attitude of openness and teachability, and expecting God to lead, and even in where you are starting.
To quote you: "To really understand we have to just do it - trusting that God will give us the practical ways to live out the one another’s of the bible. "
We have found this to be very true. At each step along the way, we are finding that as we are challenged to change something to be more in line with the Written Word of God we just kind of close our eyes, step out into the void and find something there. Also, when we are challenged to stop something we have previously thought essential, we have found that what comes into the space is more of God, more of family, more of meaning.
I don't know if I've mentioned this in any of the threads you would have read, and it bears repeating so here we go...
We have found it so helpful to focus on "Obedience to the commands of Jesus". He said, "Teach them to obey all I have commanded you..." So we read the gospels for His commands, and some people much smarter than me have found that they all can be sorted into groups. One way to see them is this:
The Seven Commands of Christ: "Follow Me", that is Repent, believe and receive the Holy Spirit "Be Baptized" "Remember Me" - The Lord's supper "Love" - God, neighbor, believers, enemy (forgive) "Pray" "Give" to God and others "Make Disciples" - pass on the above to others.
This is enough to keep us busy all day long, and is a great summary of the Life of the Disciple. It is also simple enough to teach a child or an illiterate disciple. You don't have to understand Hermeneutics or Pneumatology to do these things!
A great way to avoid future disharmony is to distinguish these things from "Apostolic Practices" which we are ALLOWED to do but not COMMANDED to do. Such as, when to worship, speaking in tongues, appointing leaders. These are IMPORTANT but not commanded. Each fellowship and believer has liberty in Christ to choose which of these to emphasize at any given time.
Then, we in the house church movement want to also recognize "human traditions" not mentioned in the Bible, and realize these, too, are not commanded, and shouldn't result in division, and may be best avoided. Focus then can be on reproducing the things Jesus commanded us to do. Human Traditions would include things like prescribing certain clothing, having a Sunday School, choosing between doctrines like Calvinism vs. Arminianism.
Recognizing these three "levels of authority" - Commands of Jesus; Apostolic Practices; and Human Tradition is so helpful if we want to be 24/7 believers. We can really clear away the clutter of our faith! Maybe you don't need to do that, but I sure do!
If I could force my will on anyone (which I'd love to - I admit it!) I would go from house to house demanding that nothing be discussed except the commands of Christ until everyone has those down pat! As if we could...
But I can't, and won't, do that I commend these to you, though. I will footnote here that these are based on George Patterson, David Garrison and Brian Hogan's "Church Planting Multiplication" principles which have resulted in a phenomenal, growing and pure church in several formerly resistant populations. I say this not to promote them, but to avoid plagiarism. I'm smart - but not smart enough to have come up with these things myself.
Brian Hogan's book, "There's a Sheep in My Bathtub" is coming out soon, in which he tells the story of the church in Erdenet, Mongolia. I've heard his story, and it is truly "The book Acts all over again"! I'll be buying a case to give to all my friends! (PM me if you want more info on that). In it he shares how by focusing on the Commands of Jesus, the church not only reproduced, but prepared people who'd never heard of Jesus before to stand against heresy and the cults, resulted in mature leadership that could stand alone, and most importantly resulted in lives dramatically changed by the power of God. Think Jesus knew that when he told us to "Teach them to obey my commands"?
Blessings to you, Glory to him and Peace to everyone else! Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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Thank you for those words Laurie Ann. So we had our first gathering last night. God provided for us an elder couple that have been Christians for many years. When they said they wanted to meet with us in place of their traditional church we felt like that was a good reason to set the date to start so we did. Because the other family representations are in their late 20’s early 30’s we experienced the buzzing of children – which is fantastic but we are now discovering what to do when that buzz overtakes the discussion and whatever else goes on. We did communion and sang one song together but mainly discussed why we were there. We came to consensus that we would like the consistent reading of scripture to fuel our discussions but that our meeting would not be limited to that. I shared a lot of what God had been teaching me much of which I have gained from being on these house church forums. So the journey has begun. Doing the one anothers
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I commend these to you, though. I will footnote here that these are based on George Patterson, David Garrison and Brian Hogan's "Church Planting Multiplication" principles which have resulted in a phenomenal, growing and pure church in several formerly resistant populations. I say this not to promote them, but to avoid plagiarism. I'm smart - but not smart enough to have come up with these things myself.