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This is gonna be a pretty short opener. It has recently been brought to my attention that having a "pastor" is probably another "leftover" from The Old Testament. The theory being, that this "problem" is coming almost entirely from the old priestly (or priesthood) system. The fact that the catholic church still calls their ministers "priest" (coupled together with many other facts I have already discussed here, ad nauseam) ...is all I personally need to back up this supposition.
That being said, the traditional pastoral system (the guy standing up there yammering) should be totally discarded if 1 Peter 2:9-10 is true. We need each other, but we don't need anyone in authority over us, but Christ Himself. How's that for radical!?!
NOTE: This doesn't disallow elders mentoring, those who have gone before shepherding, nor the wise council of like-minded peers!
1 Peter 2:9-10 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
1 Peter 5 goes on to admonish the elders to be shepherds.
I suppose, Matthew, the crux is the word "traditional." Pastoring or shepherding must be a big deal according to the reply Jesus gave to Peter as to his love for the Good Shepherd: "Feed my sheep."
Pastors, of some sort, are required to be teachers - they are even called pastor-teachers in Eph 4.
True, the modern version of pastor usually possesses a priestly role. One example: Sacraments are not administered in his absence in many churches today, such as the kind I was raised in.
Okay, now on to that 1 Peter 5 thing... Once the "feed" concept is debunked, the only mention of a shepherd is "The 'Chief Shepherd'", or Christ Himself. The Lord is directly mentioned in verse four. Please note that verse five says, "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."
Oh, and just for you ladies out there, please note that there is no gender specifications in the Greek!
All of this seems to bolster my case even more! This is peer-to-peer stuff, not client-server stuff!!!
My conclusion? I think there is a great fear of loss of control, and yes... even in the home church realm. This has kept a kind of revamped Old Testament priesthood intact, in the form of "pastors" who "feed their flocks" whatever they think is best.
I think one of the biggest prolems with the modern day pastor (as well as much of the system of the traditional church) is that it sets up what is comonly known as the clergy-laity split. The verse D quoted says that we are a royal priesthood- we are all priests! With only one high priest- J.C.! Jesus says in Mathew 23 that "you are not to be called "Rabbi", for you have only one master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone "Father", for you have one Father, and He is in heaven. (oh, we protestants are feeling pretty good right now- but read on...) Nor are you to be called "Teacher", for you have one Teacher, the Christ." Titles, I think, infer a position, which is in some way hierarchacal.
Like Mathew and D said- the spiritual gifts- including teaching, pastoring, shepherding, and leading are vitaly important, but should be functions rather than positions; peer-to-peer stuff, not client-server stuff. I realize that many in the Church say- "oh yes, this is how we want our church to function", but I think the traditional church structure just makes it impossible! How can we be a royal priesthood if only one or two are allowed to actually do it?
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Jeanne, Wow!!! Can you believe it, I have never had that brought to my attention before! Oh, I've heard the “call no man your father” quoted before, (because I wasn't raised catholic [see the “Contentions among you” topic]) but I have never had the rest of that brought to my attention!
Even better! Thanks so much Jeanne!
I did some study on this, and found, (not so much to my surprise) that Jesus covered the entire gambit! In Matthew 23 He said, don't call any one; 1.) Rabbi 2.) teacher (both in verse 8). Then He covered the title of 3.) father (in verse 9). Then He went on to cover 4.) preceptor (aka headmaster or headmistress in verse 10)! Then Jesus went on in verse 11 to say that the greatest among you shall be the servant among you.
NOTE: I again find it totally horrid that here the word was properly interpreted servant, but the KJV authors interpreted it as “minister” and “deacons” starting in Romans ...and these two words were used thereafter.*
The only place servant was interpreted as minister in The Gospels, was in Matthew 20:26, and Mark 10:43. Both of these were “the minister shall be great among you” lesson. ROTFLM(King James)HO!!!
*NOTE: At the risk of being falsely accused of holding to a “culturally influenced feminist bias” again, the only time the word was interpreted again as servant after Romans, is in Romans 16:1 where “Phebe our sister” is directly addressed. What a big, stinking, maggot infested pile of dung! (Sorry, but that's as nice as I can get about this.)
This proves several things. 1.) That women can be both “deacons” and “ministers” in the church today, 2.) that the word was improperly interpreted by the KJV writers on purpose, and 3.) that women enjoyed the same honor as men within The New Testament church!
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Keep up your studying Mathew- it certainly blesses me! And keep praying that God would give you oppertunity to live out the things you are learning!
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Actually, the more I study The Greek Interlinear, and the more I understand how bad "off course" the church is today, the more I want to move out into the middle of the woods somewhere, and become a hermit (maybe the word "monk" sounds more religious).
The truth is, and my experience has been, that most folks are not open to hearing anything different than what they have always heard.
I guess in a way, I really wish I never even opened that Interlinear, those many months ago. If being a christian and being a church goer is lonely, being a christian and being unable to bring yourself to set foot in a church, well...
At least I have my wife, my daughter, and our two pets... AND Y`ALL HERE AT THE RCC
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Certainly you have touched on a major problem of the traditional church. It would seem that the IC today is designed to just perpetuate itself. Further, the pastor should be a servent. After discussion with the church (people) discovering what's going on in their lives is necessary. Jesus knew the needs and problems of those He touched. He was not aloof(?), He knew them and His message was specifically for their healing, and encouragement in right living. A 'pastor problem' is the series that sounds good but doesn't address the lives of those who will hear, and never intends on producing a transformation, let alone expecting it. The people listening (congregation) have no interplay, no discussion and certainly are not allowed to add God inspired insights. For too long, congregations have allowed the pastor to to do all the reading of God's word, prayer and 'spiritual work' for them. The real problem is comming to the traditional church, partially listening to the sermon and thinking that they have "taken care of this Christianity thing" in their lives. Never really knowing what they truely believe and certainly not living it.
Here, we still have the pastor thing going on. One person presents a topic, or may I say sermon. It conveys a thought ( not 30-45 minutes of thought(s). However, here like in a home church setting, it allows thought and discussion from other Christians (Holy Priests).
This allows for a more personal Christianity, among other things.
I don't want to ramble, but I think you see what I'm getting at. It's not a pastor problem as much as it is a structural problem. Lest I get started....the pastor problem also opens up the bigger issue of the problem with the pastor.......
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I also must add, you are very correct in that every one wanting to know the true Gospel should have a good Greek Interlinear. It is absolutley inspiring. Please forgive my spelling.
-------------------- And everything, whatever you do in word or in work, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus,
quote:D Allen said: Certainly you have touched on a major problem of the traditional church. It would seem that the IC today is designed to just perpetuate itself.
Kinda like cancer huh?
quote:I don't want to ramble, but I think you see what I'm getting at. It's not a pastor problem as much as it is a structural problem. Lest I get started....the pastor problem also opens up the bigger issue of the problem with the pastor.......
I do understand what you are talking about, I think. You don't so much have an issue with having a "pastor" [Greek, "shepherd"] as you have an issue with the way the current pastor's job is defined. Am I getting it?
My finding is that Jesus Himself is our Shepherd, and although we can shepherd and teach others, ONLY Jesus is to be our Shepherd. Therefore, I think we agree... However, I just stipulate that the terms "pastor" and "shepherd" should be altogether abandoned as a title used in fellowship.
I like to say it like this. I cook a lot, and I really like to cook. I cook, but I am not a cook (a chef). Just because we help shepherd someone doesn't make us a shepherd. In John 10:14-16 Jesus makes it clear He is to be the only Shepherd. From The Interlinear, "...and they shall be becoming one sheep herd, with one Shepherd" I detail this out here. I think Jesus alone should carry this honor. What do you think?
quote:I also must add, you are very correct in that every one wanting to know the true Gospel should have a good Greek Interlinear. It is absolutley inspiring. Please forgive my spelling.
There is a very powerful free Hebrew and Greek Interlinear for your computer called Interlinear Scripture Analyzer. I use it every day!!!
Also, you can download the Mozilla Firefox browser. It very trusted, and has built in spell check while you type. I'm dyslexic and I use it here all of the time. It really helps, and it's free too!
NOTE: Being that I'm dyslexic, I will never say a word about your spelling! Also, I wouldn't anyway. I'm not here to nit-pick. I'm here to fellowship with like-minded believers. Believe me, I use a spell check mostly for y`all's benefit, not mine!!!
We just left the Wesleyan denomination. I pastored a local church, 37 years. But now we have started our House Church. I felt that the Holy Spirit is leading us to operate as I will paste below.
PURPOSE STATEMENT
Equip people for their ministry through, VISION OF TWELVE. WIN = (SOULS) – CONNECT – TRAIN and SEND in order to magnify the Name of Jesus and fulfilling HIS Great Commission.
HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN?
WIN is done through reaching the unsaved and un-churched through home cell groups.
CONNECT is centered around a 3-day event called an 'Encounter Weekend'. During this time the Holy Spirit is allowed to confront specific issues in the lives of those attending, and deliverance and inner healing and in some cases, physical healing takes place as those issues are brought to the Cross.
TRAIN takes place in many different ways; through the input and prayers of the Cell Leader or leader of your G12; through bible teaching in the celebration meetings; and through a 30 week course known as the 'School of Leaders' which prepares the new Christian for Cell Leadership.
SEND At the end of the second term of School of Leaders, the new believer is encouraged to start a Cell before they start the third term. This part of the process is called, SEND. In this way they are actively being sent into the world in order to fulfill the Great Commission of Jesus. This Cell is formed from the people the disciple has won for Jesus, and the cycle begins again. (EVERY DISCIPLE, MAKING DISCIPLES.)
This is obviously a very brief overview of the structure of Potter’s Wheel House Of Worship & Training Center. While structure is important, the condition of our hearts before God is the most important aspect of the Vision. Without holiness, no one will see the Lord, (Hebrews 12:14) and we will not be fruitful in the Vision.
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I guess my question, Gary, is who is in charge of the service? Does man bring an agenda or is it Spirit led? My thoughts are that if man brings an agenda, it's just a mini-version of the IC. If members show up and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and minister to one another, then we have a biblical prototype that is modeled after Bible get togethers. Church members are starving to be ministers. There are so many gifts among God's people, most of which spoils on the vine without benefit to anyone in the Body of Christ because one or two parts of the Body consume all the time of meeting together, and the others sit and watch as spectators. Somehow, we simply must get the Body participating, or it will remain the quadrapleagic it has become over the centuries.
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and 3.) that women enjoyed the same honor as men within The New Testament church!
