I'm more and more convinced that this tragic trend will continue until Christians come to understand the radical differences between the Old and New Covenants!

I have been meditating on this subject for many months. So far, I have noticed 20 definite contrasts between the two. No doubt others of you will be aware of others! Please post the ones you have seen or come to appreciate.

TWENTY FEATURES OF THE OLD COVENANT MADE AT SINAI

(1)The Ten Commandments written on stone were given as the standard of behaviour but could give no power to enable Israelites to keep them.Ex.20
(2)A man-made altar where men offered sacrifices continually which could never take sins away.
Ex.20:24; Heb.10:11
(3)A man-made sanctuary (a building) to be the house or dwelling place of God Ex.25:8-27:21
(4)A memorial meal to be eaten at the appointed time Lev.23:5; Numbers 9
(5)Reverence to be given to the sanctuary (building)Lev.26:2
(6)A distinct priesthood from among the people: Ex.28,29
-distinguished by: -special clothing Ex.28:1-42
-special instructions and training Ex..29
-special consecration ceremony Ex.29:1-35; Lev.8
-special duties of ministry Ex.29:36-46 and all of Leviticus
(7)Observance of special days: -sabbaths 31:13-17
-feasts 34:18-28; Lev.23
(8)Offerings taken for the construction of the sanctuary 35:4-36:7
(9)Offerings taken for the support of the special priesthood Lev.2:3; 5:13; 6:14-30; 7:31-34;
(10)Tithes taken for support of special priests and ministers Numbers 18:20-32
(11)Priesthood had to be distinguished from others with proper documentation genealogical records)
Ezra 2:62; Nehemiah 7:64
(12)Ministry from above, an elevated place. Nehemiah 8:4,5; 9:4
(13)The ministry of song was usually done by a special class of singers.2 Chronicles 29:28,30;
Ezra 3:11; Nehemiah 12:42
(14)The ministry of teaching the Lord's people was characteristicly done as a monologue lecture. (one
speaker addressing and audience of listeners). Deut.4:5; 31:22; II Kings 17:28; II Chronicles
17:9; 35:3; Nehemiah 8:9;
(15)Specific duties and functions (offering the sacrifices, use and care of the vessels of the
tabernacle, erecting and dismantling the tabernacle, teaching the law etc) were reserved
exclusively for the male members of the tribe of Levi. Today in Old Covenant religious systems
specific duties and functions (administering baptism and the Lord's Supper, teaching and
preaching, marrying and burying etc) are reserved for a male clerical class of priests!
(16)Priestly ministry was always done in a standing position indicating that there was no rest, (the
work was never done!) Hebrews 10:11
(17)The Old Covenant made at Sinai was designed by God to "gender" (literally "generate") bondage!
Galatians 4:21- 5:1 It is pictured allegoricly by Hagar, the bond woman.
(18)The Old Covenant made at Sinai (Ex.19-24) was a two way conditional covenant. God promised to do
certain things for His people IF they would obey His voice and keep His covenant. Ex.19:5,6. The
people agreed to the terms of the covenant Ex.24:3,7
(19)The visible token of the Old Covenant was the sprinkling of the blood of the sacrifices, the
evidence of the death of the sacrifice. Ex.24:6-8; Hebrews 9:18-22 Any covenant stands in force
as long as its' visible token continues.
(20)When the Book of Hebrews was written, the Old Covenant had waxed old and was ready to vanish
away. Hebrews 8:13 (Why do we still cling to so many vestiges of it over 2000 years later,
especially when we have a covenant that is so much BETTER?!!)

TWENTY FEATURES OF THE NEW COVENANT

(1)The New Covenant raises the standard of behaviour to a much higher level (the love of Christ) and
the indwelling Christ gives power that the law never could. II Cor.3:3; 5:14,15; Heb.10:16
(2)Our altar is God's altar where Christ offered Himself without spot to God, one sacrifice for
sins forever. Heb.9:14; 10:12; 13:10-13
(3)There is no man-made sanctuary, rather we enter with Christ into the holiest in heaven!
Heb.9:24; 10:19-22
(4)The Lord's supper (not "the Lord's snack") is to be eaten in remembrance of Him as often as we
eat the bread and drink the cup. I Cor.11:26
(5)Our bodies (not our buildings) are the temple of the Father, the Son and the Spirit of God!
I Cor.6:15-20; Jn.14:20; I Jn.4;13 (Thus we don't GO TO church... we ARE the church!)
(6)All believers are priests. I Peter 2:5-10 All are ordained. John 15:16 All are ministers.
I Peter 4:10,11 All are clergy! I Peter 5:3 ("heritage" is the Greek "KLEROS" from which the
word "clergy" is derived.
(7)New covenant believers have no special sabbaths or feast days to observe because our whole LIVES
belong to the Lord! Romans 14:5,6; Colossians 2:16,17
(8)Since believers who enjoy the liberties of the New Covenant need not build or maintain physical
sanctuaries, (they simply meet in homes) there are no corporate collections for such buildings!
Acts 2:46; 8:3; 12:12; 20:20; Romans 16:5; I Cor.16:19; Colossians 4:15: Philemon 1:2
(9)Since all believers are priests, ministers, and clergy, there is no special priesthood to be
supported by corporate collections! Rather, New Covenant collections are laid up in store by each
believer, PERSONALLY, for the purpose of meeting the needs of POOR OR WEAK SAINTS. (NOT paying
mortgages, utilities, and salaries!) I Cor.16:1,2; Ac. 20:33-35
(10)There is no tithe required of New Covenant believers! Rather, the measure of one's giving
is to be "according as a man purposes in his heart... not grudgingly or of necessity, for God
loveth a cheerful giver." II Cor.9:7 The first priority of believers, who live in the
enjoyment of the New Covenant, is to GIVE THEIR OWN SELVES TO THE LORD AND THEN TO GIVE
THEMSELVES IN SERVICE TO OTHERS. When the Lord has the man or woman, themselves, He also has
direct control of their finances. Under the Old Covenant, the TITHE WAS THE LORD'S. But under the
New Covenant, the TOTAL IS THE LORD'S! II Cor.8:1-9
(11)Distinguishing documentation such as ordination certificates or workers' letters of commendation
are conspicuous by their absence from the New Testament!
(12)Ministry is to be from beneath, as from little children and slaves and modelled by the Lord Jesus
with towel and basin. Matthew 20:25-27; Luke 22:25-27; John 13
(13)The ministry of song is for all, it is participatory. Acts 16:25; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians
3:16; James 5:13
(14)The ministry of teaching the Lord's people is characteristicly by conversation. Homiletics is NOT
the art of sermonizing! All N.T. homilies were conversations! The Greek word HOMILEO is always
translated "communed" or "talked". Luke 24:14,15; Acts 20:11; 24:26. Paul's "preaching" in Acts
20:7 is the Greek DIALEGOMAI, or dialogue!
(15)Since all New Covenant believers are priests, there are no priestly functions that are reserved
for a distinguished class or for believers of one gender! Baptising, serving of meals in which we
remember the Lord,marrying, burying, teaching, preaching etc are all open to all believers! All
of these things take place in house church assemblies where the one-anothering of reciprocal, and
participatory ministry of all believers is the order of the day. Hebrews 10:24,25; I Peter
4:10,11 (The only circumstance where there is a distinction in ministry roles of men and women
is in whole church gatherings of the church of God in a city.(I Cor.14 and I Tim 2and 3)
(16)The ministry of New Covenant priests is from a seated position, because we rest in a work that
is done! Luke 22:14; Acts 16:13; Ephesians 2:6; Hebrews 1:3; 10:12
(17)The New Covenant was designed by God to bring liberty! Galatians 4:21- 5:1 It is pictured
allegoricly by Sarah, the freewoman.
(18)The New Covenant is a one way, unconditional covenant (promises made by a faithful God to His
people!) Hebrews 8:8-12
(19)The visible token of the New Covenant is the cup of communion, the evidence of the life of our
sacrifice!Matthew 26:27,28; Mark 14:23,24; Luke 22:19,20; I Cor.10:16; 11:25,26; Hebrews 9:23-28
(20)The New Covenant will continue in force forever! The Lord Jesus will drink the cup with us in His
Father's kingdom! Matthew 26:29; Mark 14:25; Luke 22:18

IN ORDER TO DISPENSE WITH ALL ASPECTS OF THE OLD COVENANT AND EMBRACE THOSE OF THE NEW, WE NEED TO ALLOW SCRIPTURE TO TRANSFORM OUR OWN THINKING AND ACTIONS RELATIVE TO OUR RELATIONSHIP TO CHRIST AND OTHER BELIEVERS!

WOW, thx for this post. Will think abt your challenge for more - just thinking abt your comparisons is wonderful.

BTW, Yestdy I attended Sun Sch (SS) @ an interdenom ch, prviously the ch was Cumberland Pres. Short while ago congregation broke off, do not kno or really care to kno why, but was allowed to keep bldg. Those who attend were previously Bap, Presb, Methd, Mennonite, and think Luthern (this is my memory of what I was told). SS was held by all adults sitting in sort of a circle, ea one reading a verse in a chapter of Ps, w/ea verse discsd by ALL. There was a leader who really facilitated the grp - if no comments were made (or few) we were encouraged to speak up.

I'm glad you've been able to find fellowship with a group of other believers, and the format of their gathering is great! It's not often you find such a group where the leader is such a good facilitator to encourage participation of all. Trust the Lord will bless you and also make you a vbl;essing as you minister and are ministered to by these beliebvers!

Keep us posted!

I wonder if we can consider the twenty truths relative to the New Covenant above (and others) one at a time and discuss how such are intended by God to practically affect our lives and our ministry to others?

"(1)The New Covenant raises the standard of behaviour to a much higher level (the love of Christ) and
the indwelling Christ gives power that the law never could. II Cor.3:3; 5:14,15; Heb.10:16

How will the living out of this truth cause us to live differently (with greater God-given liberty) than those who live under Old Covenant principles and mind sets??

I'd love to hear from any of you!

Great idea. One quick thought - living under the New Cov's higher standard means we will go the "extra mile" in all areas. That is, not just meet the letter of the law but beyond. What a witness to the lost that can be. Also, the constant concern abt ME doing things to meet the standard disappears as I walk in the love of Christ - it is not abt me, but abt others.

The real reason you continually forget to mention Paul's authority in the Lord - to clean up God's established church - is because this would cause light to shine on your own procrastination in growing. Even Christ, bound to die as he was, took time out to whip those people out of the temple that were tainting it.

You are extrememly one-sided in your presentation of Biblical truths, Bruce. Where are the passages that would present this side of the arguement?

Ok, here are a couple of issues in which you neglect to present the other side of the coin.

Your quote,

"9) Since all believers are priests, ministers, and clergy, there is no special priesthood to be
supported by corporate collections! Rather, New Covenant collections are laid up in store by each
believer, PERSONALLY, for the purpose of meeting the needs of POOR OR WEAK SAINTS. (NOT paying
mortgages, utilities, and salaries!) I Cor.16:1,2; Ac. 20:33-35"

Paul certainly did collect for the sake of the poor but it was because the Jews (for instance) had shared their spiritual knowledge with them - so the Gentile churches 'owed' them from their material wealth. It was not simply because they were poor, but because they were blessed by the spiritual knowledge they had received, and owed it to them. (Rom 15:25-27)

Paul also stated that it was the Lord's command that those who work at the altar should be supported by the altar. (1 Cor 9:13-14)

Are you saying that these people weren't allowed to use the money to support their households? Were they not supposed to eat, or take care of their bills? Or maybe you think the poor in those days did not own homes.

But here's the one that I was thinking of originally. You cite a good example the way things should be when everything is going well.

"(12)Ministry is to be from beneath, as from little children and slaves and modelled by the Lord Jesus
with towel and basin. Matthew 20:25-27; Luke 22:25-27; John 13"

But what about when things are not going well? Children still need discipline when they get out of line - even adult children. Who is to take authority at that time and come 'with a whip' as Jesus did, and as Paul offers to later. (1 Cor 4:20-21) If all you do is pretend that things will always go well in your churches, then you are going to find yourself in the same predicament that the IC's are in now. Nobody ever corrects the wrongs, or gives people back to Satan when they need to be. Greed and arrogance gets out of hand, and 'binding' is necessary when maturity has been established, so as not to fall backwards again.

The IC needs a lot of discipline that is only meant to be taken on by mature Christians that the Lord gives authority to.
Diane

What was sent, was not sent to leaders, to a special class of ministers, to teachers, to preachers or prophets! It was sent to the POOR SAINTS AT JERUSALEM! Certainly Gentiles owe much to Jews as we have received much from them. That is a far cry from "paying" teachers or preachers etc!
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Paul also stated that it was the Lord's command that those who work at the altar should be
supported by the altar. (1 Cor 9:13-14) Are you saying that these people weren't allowed to use the money to support their households? Were they not supposed to eat, or take care of their bills? Or maybe you think the poor in those days did not own homes.
**************************************************************************
The only ones who "worked at the altar" in O.T. times were Levites. They were not given an inheritance of land and so God decreed that they were to be supported by the tithes of the other tribes. But every N.T. believer is a priest and thus has work "at the altar"! But no class of Christians is ever instructed to avoid working with their own hands to meet their own needs! Paul did so consistently and taught elders and saints in all the churches to follow his example! There is no class of believers who are to spend all their time reading, studying, teaching etc and expecting others to give to them so they can pay their bills! All believers are to work with their own hands so they have to meet their own needs AS WELL AS THE NEEDS OF OTHERS WHO MAY BE WEAK OR POOR!
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But here's the one that I was thinking of originally. You cite a good example the way things should be when everything is going well. "(12)Ministry is to be from beneath, as from little children and slaves and modelled by the Lord Jesus with towel and basin. Matthew 20:25-27; Luke 22:25-27; John 13" But what about when things are not going well? Children still need discipline when they get out of line - even adult children. Who is to take authority at that time and come 'with a whip' as Jesus did, and as Paul offers to later. (1 Cor 4:20-21) If all you do is pretend that things will always go well in your churches, then you are going to find yourself in the same predicament that the IC's are in now. Nobody ever corrects the wrongs, or gives people back to Satan when they need to be. Greed and arrogance gets out of hand, and 'binding' is necessary when maturity has been established, so as not to fall backwards again. The IC needs a lot of discipline that is only meant to be taken on by mature Christians that the Lord gives authority to. Diane
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Diane, The Lord Jesus did not set up a two-tiered system of church leadership! (i.e. Bottom -up service when things are going well, and Top-down hierarchical authority when things go badly!)

Things were not going well at all among the disciples at the last passover before the Lord Jesus was crucified! Not one of the disciples was willing to serve. Not one of them was willing to humble himself to wash the dirty feet of the others! Not one was willing to take the place of a slave and minister in humility to the others!

Things were not going well at all! So if what you are saying is true, the Lord Jesus should have come down with authority, rebuked their selfishness and ordered some of them to wash His feet and the feet of the others!

But wait a minute! When things were going the worst, was the very time when the greatest humility, by the Greatest One in the room, provided the greatest and most powerful rebuke to the whole selfich lot of the disciples! The greatest influence for God, when things are not going well at all, is still wielded by servant leaders who minister in humility from beneath! That is, those who are willing to give and are not expecting to receive from those whom they serve! It is such who realize the truth of the words of the Lord Jesus, "It is more blessed to give than to receive." See Acts 20:33-35

Going back to my point #9 which you quote above, Do you believe, Diane, that there IS a special priesthood today which IS to be supported by corporate collections?

Going back to my point #12 which you quote above, Do you believe , Diane, that when things are not going well in the church and people are not going by scriptural principles that leaders are justified to depart from the leadership style commanded by the Lord Jesus and to revert to the leadership style of the Kings of the Gentiles who exercise lordship and authority upon their subjects??

These things need to be made crystal clear if the church is to function as God intended!

Will await your reply,

Bruce

"What was sent, was not sent to leaders, to a special class of ministers, to teachers, to preachers or prophets! It was sent to the POOR SAINTS AT JERUSALEM! Certainly Gentiles owe much to Jews as we have received much from them. That is a far cry from "paying" teachers or preachers etc!"

~~~~~~~~~~And how do you know, Bruce? If they all treated each other as themselves, and there was no-one in need according to Acts 2 and 4 - wouldn't it make more sense if they were all poor in Jerusalem? And wouldn't that include Peter, John, and James? Of course it would.

What you are suggesting is that the Jerusalem church wasn't following Jesus' example, but that the Jewish leaders were taking what there was given and keeping most of it for themselves in order to raise themselves above the poor - creating class discrimination all over again. You see? Your theory doesn't make sense. After the wealth had been divided evenly among them - so that 'there was no-one in need', then it was time to receive from the outside churches in order to help support them. The excess in Jerusalem had all been spent. They were all poor. Even so, they were still to hold on to their inheritences of property given to them by the Lord originally.

Are you saying that God doesn't use the poor and the humble to lead his people? This is in direct conflict to Biblical principal. The collections made in the Gentile churches certainly went to support the leaders as well as all the believers in the Jerusalem church, because they were all poor.

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Paul also stated that it was the Lord's command that those who work at the altar should be
supported by the altar. (1 Cor 9:13-14) Are you saying that these people weren't allowed to use the money to support their households? Were they not supposed to eat, or take care of their bills? Or maybe you think the poor in those days did not own homes.

"The only ones who "worked at the altar" in O.T. times were Levites."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~Paul is citing this example to show that the NT church was still to follow these same rules. He is using it as justification for having rights to be supported in the same way. Though he chose not to at that time, he still had the right.

"They were not given an inheritance of land and so God decreed that they were to be supported by the tithes of the other tribes."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~That's because they already had full-time work at the altar, it's not because they didn't eventually have fields and cattle etc to work with. These things were given to them over time as well.

"But every N.T. believer is a priest and thus has work "at the altar"! But no class of Christians is ever instructed to avoid working with their own hands to meet their own needs! Paul did so consistently and taught elders and saints in all the churches to follow his example!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~Who said anything about 'avoiding work work with our hands'? Working at the altar is still work, is it not? Teaching, and healing, and performing miracles is work also - it's the work that God gave them. Paul also worked with his hands. I'm not suggesting that there isn't 'work' of a menial kind that we must all do.

But here you are forgetting that wives and mothers have been doing all these things for centuries, with no salary to back them up, as they've been working for love (God) the whole time. We don't 'pay' them, this is true. But we do support them.

"There is no class of believers who are to spend all their time reading, studying, teaching etc and expecting others to give to them so they can pay their bills! All believers are to work with their own hands so they have to meet their own needs AS WELL AS THE NEEDS OF OTHERS WHO MAY BE WEAK OR POOR!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~At times there were. The twelve did say, at one point, that they (the leaders) were to spend their time in prayer and ministry, while others should wait on tables. (Acts 6:2-4)

But I didn't say that they didn't sometimes go fishing as they used to. The whole group of them however, must have been poor in Jerusalem, and the money that came in from the other churches therefore had to be spent on mundane things like food, clothing, and other necessities.

All money is supposed to be looked at as a gift from God, is it not? For what do you have that you were not given? Do you not spend your money on things that you need also?

I think the real problem here is that you have resented today's clergy taking your money, given in charity, where you do not recognize the work they do for you, and therefore you feel you have been forced to 'pay' them. You would have really resented Jesus then. After he started his ministry, he did no menial labour that I am aware of, for he worked full-time for God.

*************************************************

"Diane, The Lord Jesus did not set up a two-tiered system of church leadership! (i.e. Bottom -up service when things are going well, and Top-down hierarchical authority when things go badly!)"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~You're quite right, but that is what you are insinuating was happening at the Jerusalem church, and that that's why the Gentile churches needed to support the poor there.

You still need both sides of authority in order for the church to work - leadership through humility, as well as authority to bind when neccessary.

*************************************************

Things were not going well at all among the disciples at the last passover before the Lord Jesus was crucified! Not one of the disciples was willing to serve. Not one of them was willing to humble himself to wash the dirty feet of the others! Not one was willing to take the place of a slave and minister in humility to the others!

Things were not going well at all! So if what you are saying is true, the Lord Jesus should have come down with authority, rebuked their selfishness and ordered some of them to wash His feet and the feet of the others!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Things were going according to plan at the supper, and Jesus was setting an example for the disciples to follow in future. He was not asking this of them at that moment. However, at the temple was another story, because Jesus saw that the leaders of that day were abusing God's church, and he did something about it! You're talking about two different scenarios, with two different sets of motives. The disciples were clean except for the one, so he wouldn't have rebuked them in that case.

What you're saying is that there should never be the kind of full-time work for God that Jesus showed us by his own lifestyle. Is this your way of taking the focus off the issue?

**************************************

But wait a minute! When things were going the worst, was the very time when the greatest humility, by the Greatest One in the room, provided the greatest and most powerful rebuke to the whole selfich lot of the disciples! The greatest influence for God, when things are not going well at all, is still wielded by servant leaders who minister in humility from beneath! That is, those who are willing to give and are not expecting to receive from those whom they serve!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~What you saying is that Paul is wrong. (1 Cor 9:1-12)

************************************************

Going back to my point #9 which you quote above, Do you believe, Diane, that there IS a special priesthood today which IS to be supported by corporate collections?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~A 'special priesthood'? No, just the regular kind of priesthood. But they should be teaching and preaching the gospel, both in their words and in their lifestyle. If they cannot heal, and they cannot perform miracles, and their words do not emit wisdom and knowledge that benefits all of the people they meet, then they don't have any right to receive gifts to support themselves with either.

For those that have reached a level of knowledge 'above' their community/membership, these should they be in positions of leadership.

***************************************************

Going back to my point #12 which you quote above, Do you believe , Diane, that when things are not going well in the church and people are not going by scriptural principles that leaders are justified to depart from the leadership style commanded by the Lord Jesus and to revert to the leadership style of the Kings of the Gentiles who exercise lordship and authority upon their subjects??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~No. They should follow the leadership style that Jesus promoted. I'm not talking about going backwards, I'm talking about using all of the teachings and all of the principals that are in the Bible. If you have only reward and no punishment, then people start to take advantage, and the system will break down - just as the churches are deteriorating today.

"These things need to be made crystal clear if the church is to function as God intended!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Agreed. They also need to be balanced.

Diane

I simply said that there were not gifts sent to a SPECIAL CLASS of ministers, teachers, preachers or prophets! This DOES not at all imply that teachers, preachers or prophets did not benefit by gifts sent to poor saints, because all were poor!

You missed my point completely that since all New Covenant believers are priests, they all work at the altar! Ministering to God in sacrifice (their bodies presented as living sacrifices, offering sacrifices of praise etc) and ministering to others in service (according to their spiritual gifts). But since ALL work AT the altar, ALL (Not just a special class!) are to live OF the altar!

You wrote:"I think the real problem here is that you have resented today's clergy taking your money, given in charity, where you do not recognize the work they do for you, and therefore you feel you have been forced to 'pay' them. You would have really resented Jesus then. After he started his ministry, he did no menial labour that I am aware of, for he worked full-time for God."

Diane, I do not resent "today's clergy"! God's clergy (heritage I Peter 5:3) of the New Covenant is the same as the laity (the people of God I Peter 2:10) They have always been the very same people! It is that "special class" of man-made "clergy" who falsely distinguish themselves from those that they call the "laity" that trouble me! (I myself used to be among the man-made clergy and took the title "Reverend" and all!!)

But the Lord Jesus never distinguished himself from ordinary people by claiming a special title, a special means of support, a special certificate of recognition, special honor, or a special distinguishing garb. As to his means of physical support before he began his public ministry, or after...I am not aware that scripture even touches on the subject or indicates that there was any difference after as compared to before. Are you aware of any scriptural info on this matter??

Diane, you spoke of the scribes and pharisees, the leaders in the Jewish synagogue as "abusing God's CHURCH"! Israel is NOT the church and the church is NOT Israel!!! The church is that group of people who, in the Holy Spirit, have been baptized into the Body of Christ. (I Cor.12:13) The church which the Lord Jesus was going to build (Matt.16:18) did not commence until the day of Pentecost. (Acts 2) Jewish people who are saved and have lived since Pentecost are part of the church, but there were many Israelite saints who died before Pentecost who were never part of Christ's church. Ther have been many unbeliving Israelites since Pentecost who are not part of the church!

Diane, when I wrote that, "servant leaders ...are those who are willing to give and are not expecting to receive from those whom they serve!", you responded saying, "What you saying is that Paul is wrong. (1 Cor 9:1-12) "

That is not true! Paul never expected to receive from those he served! He worked to provide for their needs! (Acts 20:33-35)

Regarding priesthood and support, you wrote: "If they cannot heal, and they cannot perform miracles, and their words do not emit wisdom and knowledge that benefits all of the people they meet, then they don't have any right to receive gifts to support themselves with either. For those that have reached a level of knowledge 'above' their community/membership, these should they be in positions of leadership."

Diane, would you please state the scriptural qualifications for leadership! I have never noticed in scripture before that leaders "must have reached a level of knowledge 'above" their community/membership"!!!

Would you also please quote the scriptures where you find that those who receive gifts for their support must: (1) be able to heal, (2) be able to perform miracles, (3) speak words which emit wisdom that benefits all the people they meet. I have never come across such requirements in scripture!

Finally in the context of church leadership, you wrote: "If you have only reward and no punishment, then people start to take advantage, and the system will break down - just as the churches are deteriorating today."

Diane, where in scripture do you find that church leaders are to "punish" those whom they lead???

I do not deny that church discipline needs to be carried out at times! But scripture never places church discipline in the hands of church leaders, but rather in the hands of the church! Check out every reference to church discipline in the N.T. and you'll find that it is a church responsibility not the "leaders' " responsibility. (Please do not infer from this that I am saying that leaders are NOT involved in church discipline with all the other saints!) I am simply saying that it is not their exclusive responsibility!

"You missed my point completely that since all New Covenant believers are priests, they all work at the altar! Ministering to God in sacrifice (their bodies presented as living sacrifices, offering sacrifices of praise etc) and ministering to others in service (according to their spiritual gifts). But since ALL work AT the altar, ALL (Not just a special class!) are to live OF the altar!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~I agree. There isn't supposed to be a special class, but whether we like it or not, there are some who are approved of God and others that are not yet approved. There are those that are rich, in material wealth, who are required to share with the poor (1 Tim 6:17-19) - and those who are humble (financially) that are required to share their spiritual wealth with those that are poor spiritually (1 Cor 1:26-28).

The wealthy are the ones that are in need of saving in most cases, for it is hard for a rich man to enter into heaven. So what does this tell yuo about how the Jersualem church was run? If the poor are the more likely to get into heaven, then it is much more likely that the 'poor' were also the leaders at that time in Jerusalem. But if no-one was in need, then it was because they had evened things out between them, and now it was required of the Gentiles to spread their financial blessings back to those same people, because that is where the poor were - as compared to themselves.
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"But the Lord Jesus never distinguished himself from ordinary people by claiming a special title, a special means of support, a special certificate of recognition, special honor, or a special distinguishing garb. As to his means of physical support before he began his public ministry, or after...I am not aware that scripture even touches on the subject or indicates that there was any difference after as compared to before. Are you aware of any scriptural info on this matter??"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Generally, it is the financially humble that are the richest in spiritual knowledge. This follows the theme of the Bible in entirety. Jesus' means of physical support would likely have been carpentry, as most boys leaned their trades through their fathers. But there are distinct differences after Jesus was baptised for repentance. And Jesus, "though he was rich for our sakes he became poor, so that we through his poverty might become rich. (2 Cor 8:9). He did not become spiritually poor after his baptism, he repented of his
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Diane, you spoke of the scribes and pharisees, the leaders in the Jewish synagogue as "abusing God's CHURCH"! Israel is NOT the church and the church is NOT Israel!!! The church is that group of people who, in the Holy Spirit, have been baptized into the Body of Christ. (I Cor.12:13) The church which the Lord Jesus was going to build (Matt.16:18) did not commence until the day of Pentecost. (Acts 2)"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Bruce, we both know that Jesus went through the temple with a whip in order to rid it of the money-changers. The temple was supposed to be a place of prayer, and the Jewish leaders at that time were abusing it. It was originally God's church.
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"That is not true! Paul never expected to receive from those he served! He worked to provide for their needs! (Acts 20:33-35)"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Yes he did, Bruce. But by doing so he was also going too far, and he suffered for it, even though it was for a good cause - so not to hinder the gospel. For it was the Lord's command that those who work at the altar should also be supported by the altar. It was never intended to be the way that Paul did it, and he admits that he had done wrong later. Please refer back to my posts under your thread, "Wrong thinking always behind wrong practise". We have had this discussion before.
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"Diane, would you please state the scriptural qualifications for leadership! I have never noticed in scripture before that leaders "must have reached a level of knowledge 'above" their community/membership"!!!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~If the leaders in Paul's day didn't have more spiritual knowledge and ability than those they taught, then they would not have been in those positions of leadership - neither would Jesus. Paul is clear that his ability came not from himself, but through the Spirit.

"I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done - by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit."

His ability to 'lead' was in that which he said and did, by the power of signs and miracle, through the power of the Spirit. It was the same with Jesus, and the rest of the disciples, and that is why they were 'not to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables' (Acts 6:2)

Notice also, that after all this separating and differentiating of roles within the church, 'a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.' (Acts 6:7). Now I'm not saying that they were right to join in for such reasons, only that this is the way the male mind works - they will not participate unless they are going to get special credit for their work in most cases.
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"Diane, where in scripture do you find that church leaders are to "punish" those whom they lead???"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~What do you think Paul was asking when he suggested that he come with a whip, or a gentle spirit in 1 Cor 4:21? And '"Expel this wicked man from among you"' in 1 Cor 5:13? What do you think Jesus meant by his statement about their ability to forgive or not forgive in John 20:23?

You must first bind the strong man before you can wreck his house.

In all your responses you are imagining an ideal church - one that has no 'weak' members, and no 'leaders' per se. And though I agree with you that it is not simply the leaders responsibility to discipline, in reality it is those that have the power of the Spirit that are to do so. Not all have the confidence nor the authority from God.

But the body of Christ works just like the physical body. There is a head that leads, and a heart that gives life. Who has the greatest authority? It is the one that gives life. Because without a heart there wouldn't be a head.

Diane

"No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval." (1 Cor 11:19)

Though Jesus didn't take any worldly titles or special clothing to separate himself, he performed miracles, healed, and certainly spoke with a wisdom that was 'above' his followers, thus showing his authority in God. And he granted to his chosen few the same gifts. We are also given these gifts to show our authority.

In the very same measure that we give ourselves to serve the Lord, His authority/power (ability to do what he intends we should do) will be manifested in our lives.

Thus, any lack of power in my life may be traced directly to a lack of unreserved yieldedness to my Master.

"Thus EVERY BELIEVER has all authority at his/her disposal to do what God intends he/she should do."

~~~~~~~~~~~I agree that this is the way it should be. But does everyone take that authority? No. Is everyone qualified to do so? No. Otherwise 1 Cor 11:19 wouldn't make any sense.

"But God never gives any man or woman authority OVER another.

~~~~~~~~~~~Then how do you explain 2 Cor 10:8? "For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it."

Perhaps this is where the problem lies between us. You project only one side of the issue, and will not reconcile the other passages that also apply.

If Paul did not have authority over members of the Corinthian church, how do you explain 1 Cor 4:18-20?

For each of these passages, simply avoiding answering to them will not make your position correct.

Diane

I can see where fear of authority might come from, Bruce, if you have seen a lot of abuse of the system. But God's way was set up in order to give you life. So you must stick with it regardless. Getting rid of the abusers is the key - not getting rid of the system.

Why would the parts of the Body try to escape from the perfect system that God outlined as shown right within our physical bodies? Why would the lungs, or the liver, or stomach, run away from the authority of the heart? Why would they refuse to give her what is due her, if it means life for the whole Body? The whole thing works when the organs, tissues, and cells all cooperate with each other - giving the heart what she requires, and the head what he requires, but also answering to their own parts. So far we have been acknowledging only the head, and things are deteriorating.

There is nothing wrong with answering to the heart, Bruce. It means life for you. That is where my authority lies. If you refuse the system that will give you life, you lose life. If you refuse to listen to wisdom you die.

.........I agree with you. Not every believer wants to do what God intends they should!

You asked, "Is everyone qualified to do so? No. Otherwise 1 Cor 11:19 wouldn't make any sense."

........I cannot agree with you on this one! If all believers are not qualified to do what God intends they should do, they are not qualified to OBEY GOD! I Cor.11:19 says, "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
Obedient believers (those who are approved of God) are made manifest among the saints and stand out in contrast to those who are disobedient. "Heresies" are teachings, beliefs and practices which are contrary to the truth of God.

In response to my statement, "But God never gives any man or woman authority OVER another." You asked, "Then how do you explain 2 Cor 10:8? "For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it."
Diane, this verse says absolutely nothing about Paul having authority OVER the Corinthians! He is simply speaking of the authority that God had given him to BUILD OTHERS UP! Every believer has that same authority! Whenever I find a command of God that is addressed to me, that is the basis of my authority! Do I have authority to build up or edify God's people? Does any believer have that same authority? Absolutely! See the following scriptures:
Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

You wrote further on the same subject: "Perhaps this is where the problem lies between us. You project only one side of the issue, and will not reconcile the other passages that also apply. If Paul did not have authority over members of the Corinthian church, how do you explain 1 Cor 4:18-20?"

Diane, First let me quote the text to which you have referred:
I Cor.4:18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

Again, this passage indicates no authority OVER anyone! EVERY believer has the authority from God to respond to others as God would have us respond! God wants you and He wants me and He wants the newest believer to respond to obedient believers with love and with meekness. But those who are puffed up with pride we are to resist! "God resisteth the proud but giveth grace to the humble." The word "rod" here is also translated as "staff" or "sceptre". Rods in scripture are used : -to measure by a standard; - to reprove, resist, or to punish evil-doers.

Diane, in the context of this discussion, I am at a loss to know why you wrote the following: " Why would the parts of the Body try to escape from the perfect system that God outlined as shown right within our physical bodies? Why would the lungs, or the liver, or stomach, run away from the authority of the heart? Why would they refuse to give her what is due her, if it means life for the whole Body? The whole thing works when the organs, tissues, and cells all cooperate with each other - giving the heart what she requires, and the head what he requires, but also answering to their own parts. So far we have been acknowledging only the head, and things are deteriorating. There is nothing wrong with answering to the heart, Bruce. It means life for you. That is where my authority lies. If you refuse the system that will give you life, you lose life. If you refuse to listen to wisdom you die. Diane "

In your previous post, a number of scriptures were cited which we have discussed. But in this post there seems a total lack of relating to scripture so I wonder where you are coming from and where you are intending to go with this! So please excuse my questions which may seem elementary, but I cannot adequately respond without finding out what you mean by what you write!

I have not advocated that members in a physical body or in the Body of Christ should attempt to escape God's order!

I am unaware of the source of your teaching that the heart (in any body) has authority over any other members! Giving what is due has nothing to do with authority! The heart gives what is due to the feet! The feet gives what is due to the body! The hands give what is due to the mouth and the mouth in turn gives to the stomach! All members give to other members so that the whole body will prosper. Please quote the actual source of your concept that the heart has authority and is female and that the head has authority and is male. I do not see this as a scriptural concept at all so I'm wondering where it comes from.

Please be specific (in the context of this discussion) regarding what you meant when you wrote: "So far we have been acknowledging only the head, and things are deteriorating." Who (specificly) do you mean by "we"? How (specificly) have "we" been acknowledging the head? Who or what do you mean by "the head"? What (specificly) do you mean by "things have been deteriorating"?

"...If all believers are not qualified to do what God intends they should do, they are not qualified to OBEY GOD! I Cor.11:19 says, "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." Obedient believers (those who are approved of God) are made manifest among the saints and stand out in contrast to those who are disobedient. "Heresies" are teachings, beliefs and practices which are contrary to the truth of God."

~~~~~~~~~~~The point remains the same. Even within the church there are people who do not have everything right all the time, and some who are still learning and growing. So only a certain few are qualified to be in positions of authority.

But there is something more. Not everyone is qualified to take the position that Christ has as ruler of this world, simply because not everyone is willing to sacrifice so much for the sake of others. Jesus had to earn his position.

"In response to my statement, "But God never gives any man or woman authority OVER another." You asked, "Then how do you explain 2 Cor 10:8? "For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it."

Diane, this verse says absolutely nothing about Paul having authority OVER the Corinthians! He is simply speaking of the authority that God had given him to BUILD OTHERS UP! Every believer has that same authority!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~Oh come on, Bruce. We both know that Paul used his authority to 'build up' and to 'tear down', in order to ensure that the greater good for the church should prevail. It is only stated this way so that the church would know that the overall intention is to build up.

"I have not advocated that members in a physical body or in the Body of Christ should attempt to escape God's order!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~By ignoring the disciplinary side of God's authority you are refusing God's plan. By not acknowledging the heart with something of value from yourself, you are in fact refusing life from God, and therefore God's plan. By refusing my message, you are refusing life, and therefore God's plan. Just like it works in the physical body, the authority of the heart and head are of upmost importance.

"I am unaware of the source of your teaching that the heart (in any body) has authority over any other members! Giving what is due has nothing to do with authority! The heart gives what is due to the feet! The feet gives what is due to the body! The hands give what is due to the mouth and the mouth in turn gives to the stomach! All members give to other members so that the whole body will prosper. Please quote the actual source of your concept that the heart has authority and is female and that the head has authority and is male. I do not see this as a scriptural concept at all so I'm wondering where it comes from."

~~~~~~~~~~~~You are aware of the source - it's called judging the tree by its fruit. I've been telling you from the beginning Bruce, you cannot simply guage your doctrine by what it states in the Bible - you must also judge the results of your beliefs by what you see around you and by your life experience, and also by listening to the Spirit for interpretation. What is more, you have yourself used doctrine that is not from sciptures, so you really have no basis on which to ask for this.

Also, you pay your taxes obviously because God has put certain people in charge of governing, and thus you 'owe them' for their work on your behalf. But in heaven it will be strictly 'giving and receiving.' If you are too behind in your spiritual growth to be able to understand this, then you had best go back to the basics in spiritual teaching in this regard. Those who work at the altar are to be supported by the altar.

"The heart gives what is due to the feet! The feet gives what is due to the body! The hands give what is due to the mouth and the mouth in turn gives to the stomach! All members give to other members so that the whole body will prosper."

~~~~~~~~~~~~Yes, but the heart is the source of life, while the head is the source of knowledge as coming from the life-stuff of the heart. Judge the tree by its fruit. It seems you would prefer to lessen the value of the heart, though she is the source of all the other organs, and the first organ to be formed in the body.

"Please quote the actual source of your concept that the heart has authority and is female and that the head has authority and is male. I do not see this as a scriptural concept at all so I'm wondering where it comes from."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~As above, and also in Prov 3:18, "She (wisdom) is a tree to those who embrace her." Wisdom is female and reading Prov 8:12-21, you will see that she is positioned to bestow all the things that God gives us. She has the authority to do so, and in fact 'possesses knowledge' (vs 12). She is thus God in truth, if one judges the tree by its fruit, according to these verses.

By eating first from the tree of knowledge, Eve (woman) undermined herself, and the female in God simultaneously. This put the male into a position of rule above herself in this world and in the Spiritual also simultaneously - by reason of that deception. Eve was trying to obtain wisdom (life) from knowledge - Gen 3:6 - which had the effect of hiding the tree of life from her sight, which is her mother in God.

"Please be specific (in the context of this discussion) regarding what you meant when you wrote: "So far we have been acknowledging only the head, and things are deteriorating." Who (specificly) do you mean by "we"?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Christian church.

How (specificly) have "we" been acknowledging the head?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~By way of the woman (Eve) eating from (and desiring that which it could give her) the tree of knowledge first. This tree represented the father in God. Thus she put the male in charge - which is the only way it could have been at that time. It doesn't take much to recognize that the tree of knowledge also respresents the head, while the tree of life represents the heart of the body.

"Who or what do you mean by "the head"? What (specificly) do you mean by "things have been deteriorating"?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Christ is the word, and he represents the 'head', by also acknowledging the father in God. But the 'word' (also known as the 'sword of the spirit) covered over the tree of life right in the beginning, as a result of the deception of the woman. Wisdom is thus covered and protected by the word - corresponding to the male covering over and protecting the female in this world. We could also look at it this way - 'wisdom' is in the word - or the woman is in her husband, for she works continually in his name.

But as long as we keep giving credit to 'the word', we miss out on the real benefits that wisdom can give us. This 'sword' has been killing us from the beginning through our being deceived. And now the whole world is falling apart, because we still refuse to acknowledge anything but the word - for we acknowledge the male Christ, even for the work which is done by the female in him. These beliefs are the basis for deception in the Christian church, and thus emits out into the world to create the institutions and misconceptions that prevail within them in turn. Women do most of the work that is for love (God) in this world, and always have done - while men receive most of the money and credit for the work. The result is overall deterioration for our lack of acknowledgment of God, and for the work which is done for God. The s/word sees to it that we die, and that the whole system dies as a result of this deception.

"It is because the Christian church acknowledges the head only (the male side of God), and the heart only as a secondary source, that is the cause of the problem. The result is temporary life and then death through lack of acknowledgment for God. This happens individually and collectively.

"You say that your authority lies in the heart. Who or what is the heart in which your authority lies?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~She is the tree of life, the female, wisdom - God in truth.

Diane

Could you please quote the scripture that tells us that Paul "tore down"? How does your idea in this regard fit with the following"?
2 Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
2 Corinthians 13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

I asked the following in my previous post:"Please quote the actual source of your concept that the heart has authority and is female and that the head has authority and is male. I do not see this as a scriptural concept at all so I'm wondering where it comes from."

Your response says absolutely nothing about "authority", "heart" !

Further on you speak of the tree of knowledge and say that "This tree represented the father in God." Diane, scripture does NOT call this tree "the tree of knowledge"! It is "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"! Where in the world have you deduced that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "represented the father in God"???

Then you wrote, " It doesn't take much to recognize that the tree of knowledge also represents the head, while the tree of life represents the heart of the body." Diane, how would any reader reading the text of Genesis 2 and 3 ever come to such fantastic conclusions as you have suggested from the text of scripture???

I too could read a passage of scripture and suggest all kinds of fantastic ideas about what the scriptures represent!

But others would be responsible, as in Paul's day, to "search the scriptures whether these things were so"! (Acts 17:11) If my ideas were not stated in scripture they would have to be rejected! So too the ideas which you have put forth must also be rejected as having no scriptural basis.

How does this truth affect how new covenant believers function in contrast to those under the old covenant?

What appreciation do you have for the one that offered Himself on your behalf to God?

How was this sacrifice superior to those offered under the old covenant?

Have you got your head on straight? What do you think we've been talking about here? Paul had the authority to tear down by way of the power that was given him. By the power of the Holy Spirit, he struck Elymus blind (Acts 13:11). What do you think he meant when he asked the Corinthians whether he should come with a whip or a gentle spirit? (1 Cor 4:21) He was telling them that he had the power to discipline them if need be. Same with 1 Cor 5:12-13 - we are to 'judge those inside the church' for that is our responsibility. Expelling the wicked man from the church was a matter of tearing down, or 'destroying' - in his words.

"Could you please quote the scripture that tells us that Paul "tore down"? How does your idea in this regard fit with the following"?
2 Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
2 Corinthians 13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction."

~~~~~As above, but even in this last verse here, Paul is expressing his frustration that he wishes he didn't have to destroy, but only to edify. Yet he would do so if it was neccessary. If you don't see this, I don't know where your head is at.

"Your response says absolutely nothing about "authority", "heart" !"

~~~~~These things are spiritually discerned. But if you cannot see that Paul had to 'tear down' individual members at times in order to preserve the majority - even though it is plain in scriptures - then there's not much hope for you to see that the heart has authority in the Body. It is love that is the real authority Bruce, because God is love. And love creates life. The 'sword of the spirit' has it's power in being able to close us off from the tree of life when we are deceiving ourselves.

"Further on you speak of the tree of knowledge and say that "This tree represented the father in God." Diane, scripture does NOT call this tree "the tree of knowledge"! It is "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"! Where in the world have you deduced that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "represented the father in God"???"

~~~~~'Tree of knowledge' is just my way of shortening the phrase Bruce - we both know which tree we are referring to. But all the trees in the Garden of Eden represented people in the future. Read Ezekial 31. The trees represented nations of people, as well as individuals. In speaking of Pharoah the Lord states, "Yet you too will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth below; you will lie among the uncircimcised, with those killed by the sword." (Eze 31:18) But you have to be willing to see this before the Spirit can open your eyes.

"Then you wrote, "It doesn't take much to recognize that the tree of knowledge also represents the head, while the tree of life represents the heart of the body." Diane, how would any reader reading the text of Genesis 2 and 3 ever come to such fantastic conclusions as you have suggested from the text of scripture???"

~~~~~They wouldn't - not by just reading these two chapters. This knowledge is coming only now with the end of the age, after centuries of study and learning by the human race, and believers. It is when you put the whole Bible together that you begin to see the whole story. Everything that happened in the beginning, in the Garden, is happening in a much bigger way now at the end of the age. At the same time, it happens in a much smaller way everytime a child is conceived in the womb.

"I too could read a passage of scripture and suggest all kinds of fantastic ideas about what the scriptures represent!"

~~~~~No you couldn't Bruce. It would have to make sense. It would have to correlate all of scriptures. This is not that easy to do - for the knowledge must be earned Spiritually.

"But others would be responsible, as in Paul's day, to "search the scriptures whether these things were so"! (Acts 17:11)"

~~~~~That's right Bruce - to see if these things were true (my NIV states). It does not say, 'to see if these things were not true.' The Bereans received the message with great eagerness - which is totally different than your own attitude. So if you're going to use scriptures as a guage then at least be honest with yourself, and use it the way it was intended. You can only use it to prove the truth, you cannot use it as you are, in trying to disprove truth. But then, I've told you this before as I've told you other things that are also in this post. Do I have to keep repeating myself? If so, then this might be a futile excercise.

"If my ideas were not stated in scripture they would have to be rejected! So too the ideas which you have put forth must also be rejected as having no scriptural basis."

~~~~~~If this were so, then Paul would have been rejected also - for he wrote of much revelation knowledge that no-one could see in the Old Testement. Even the disciples could not see from scriptures that Jesus had to die and be resurrected. So your premise is faulty.

~~~~~~Please show me from scriptures where it states that only the scriptures are to be used as a way of testing. Please show me from scriptures where Jesus says we are not to judge the tree by its fruit. You cannot, because the scriptures cannot be used this way. This last one I have given to you repeatedly, but you refuse to address it. You are so busy promoting false doctrine on this message board, that you're losing the key Bruce.

Diane

PS - I believe I am done here. I will not be posting again.

Rather, we are to start with the premise that the Word of God is true and that all of scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be thoroughly furnished unto all good works. When we recognize the scriptures as the standard then we are committed to discerning, understanding and knowing the truth. But if we have no objective standard we are incapable of discerning truth from error.

Certainly scripture teaches that we are to judge a tree by its' fruit. But we still need an objective standard by which to determine what "good fruit" really is. One who could not discern a good apple from a crab apple would not be a very good "fruit inspector"! The Word of God is still the objective standard for those who would judge the tree by its' fruit. For example, Galatians 5 describes the fruit that is produced by the flesh and the fruit that is produced by the Spirit. Those who reject scripture as the objective standard of behaviour also decide that the works of the flesh are "good fruit" and that the "fruit of the Spirit" is to be rejected!