"Heal Our Land Ministries provides various tools and resources to educate church and ministry leaders in how they may unlicense their incorporated 501c3 churches and ministries, and how to properly organize and operate as a free-church or free-ministry.
"Heal Our Land Ministries informs church and ministry leaders about the perils and pitfalls of organizing and operating churches and ministries as "non-profit tax-exempt religious organizations." All such "entities" are subordinate and beholden to the State.
"At law all corporations are "creatures of the State." Moreover, at law "the State is sovereign over its creatures." We believe that it is contrary to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to convert His church into a "creature of civil government." Only the Lord Jesus Christ can be sovereign over His church."
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Reviewed your website to meet your qualification for pursuing further. I am an attorney sharing the HC philosophy and experience. I don't quite understand the blanket statements such as "attorneys are part of the problem" especially when you seem to have an interest in the grist for lawyers mills -- the law. Also I do not understand the blanket assumption that all IC practice is to differentiate gathering rooms for various ages as if it was an essential and that all HC practice is to do the opposite.
Also I question the completeness of the HC movement's attempt to recapture the vitality of NT Christianity -- it is a valiant step but a half step compared to something like Christian communitarianism.
quote:Originally posted by stan: I don't quite understand the blanket statements such as "attorneys are part of the problem" especially when you seem to have an interest in the grist for lawyers mills -- the law.
No argument from me -- it's indeed a "blanket statement." Maybe you'll understand in the context of the old attorney joke: "It's only 99% of attorneys that give the rest a bad reputation."
Perhaps you're part of the one-percent. That's not for me to determine; but given your defensiveness about it, I have some doubts. The only good attorneys I've ever met are the ones who are quick to admit that attorneys are part of the problem in America, not part of the solution.
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Wow. To question blanket generalizations is not necessarily defensive. I am actully on the offensive against unsupported assertions. I continue to make a living at the law no matter what the percentage of 'problem' lawyers may be. I would count as non-problem lawyers Jay Sekelow, Mark Levin, hosts of conservative judges like Rehnqust, all my sisters and brothers in the Christian Legal Society, Catholic Legal Society, FAIR, etc. etc. not to mention the many unsaved lawyers I constantly bump into in courts who seem to genuinely care for the aches that their clients endure and the ones of the past such as Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, et al.
This may be an aside to the topic at hand, but can you explain what you mean by "Christian communitarianism"?
Do you have in mind some examples of such in our day? Some examples in the life of the first century church? Some scriptural principles that would guide new covenant believers to follow such an "ism"?
quote:Originally posted by stan: I would count as non-problem lawyers Jay Sekelow, Mark Levin, hosts of conservative judges like Rehnqust, all my sisters and brothers in the Christian Legal Society. . .Parallel universes never collide.
You've made my point. Furthermore, we're not in a parallel universe.
Sekulow and your brothers and sisters in the CLS are a perfect example of what I'm talking about. They all, each and every one, recommend that churches incorporate and seek 501c3 status from the IRS.
quote:Originally posted by Bruce Woodford: This may be an aside to the topic at hand, but can you explain what you mean by "Christian communitarianism"?
Bruce,
You're absolutely correct. Your question is "aside to the topic at hand" and has nothing at all to do with this forum category, "Legal & Monetary Matters."
Yes, it was Stan who originally raised this completely off-point issue; but you will notice that I did not respond to Stan on that point, and that was deliberate on my part.
I would request that you not assist Stan with taking this legal discussion completely off-point. Don't take the bait.
While it may be important to have a discussion on Christian communitarianism, it's not appropriate to have it here. Please ask Stan to join you for discussion on Christian communitarianism in an appropriate forum category.
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Stan,If a Christian were to ask your advice, as an attorney and as a Christian, whether he or she should file and pay Income Tax...what would be your advice to them?
Are you aware of any law that makes the average person on the street legally responsible to do so?
If so, would you quote that law here?
Also, what would be your advice, again as an attorney and as a Christian, to a group of believers who gather together as a church in homes who asked you whether or not they would be wise to seek tax-exempt status as a charitable organization?
What advantages would you tell them would be in such "status"? And what disadvantages would you warn them about?
I would give as a good example -- the lifestyle of JPUSA in Chicago (www.jpusa.org/)or the more conservative Brazos de Dios/Homestead Heritage www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/002/32.56.html and Paul, Pricilla and Aquilla all working at tentmaking together as models.
i would thing the average HC gathering should not bother with incorportation, tax exemption and the like. when other issues such as property tax burden come into being because of growth such as need for a homeschoolers support system or whatever (stretching for an example for the radical folks) then i believe we are free to do as we wish -- i don't feel the need to fall into the tax trap set by pharisees for Jesus.
somehow after living half my life in places like Japan and Australia the modern US anti income tax/ anti money / anti drivers licenses (i defend people in these types of groups) don't seem to be in my universe of scriptural concern -- i do think that the extreme emphasis of dual use of home for living and assembling is an overemphasis and that there are other concerns -- all these concerns have legal ramifications -- christian communitarianism sure does. stan
i would thing the average HC gathering should not bother with incorportation, tax exemption and the like.
Good answer.
And what of the average IC (institutional church)? Would you also advise them to not incorporate and seek 501c3 recognition from the IRS, or would you, like your brother Jay Sekulow, encourage an IC to become a 501c3 corporation?
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"Those who take the King's shilling must do the King's bidding."
It is worthy of notice that it is often goverenments which oppose and attempt to control the church. Such as Rome, long ago, and now China and many others too.
You said: "somehow after living half my life in places like Japan and Australia the modern US anti income tax/ anti money / anti drivers licenses (i defend people in these types of groups) don't seem to be in my universe of scriptural concern... i do think that the extreme emphasis of dual use of home for living and assembling is an overemphasis and that there are other concerns -- all these concerns have legal ramifications."
I am part of the Tax Honesty movement, which is decidedly NOT "anti income tax, anti money, anti driver's licenses..." but I note that IRS shills like to lump all sorts of straw men together so as to slow the exodus. Thank God, Peter Kershaw and others are having a profound effect in the Church -- finally! It is absurd for any church to incorporate under the state, period. But it is equally absurd for pastors, elders, and church deacons to shill for the largest financial fraud in human history, that being the unlawful and fraudulent misrepresentation and unlawful collection of income tax. I haven't paid a cent in federal income tax in six years, going on seven -- and have written over a dozen certified letters trying to get some direction from IRS on my principled Nontaxpayer position, based on six years' study of 26 IRC (It's not actually 26 USC, technically).
I'm interested in your take as a Christian attorney. Go to my New Geneva Study Center website and read the Motion for Judicial Review and the (7) legal briefs there, on this subject of Congress' 90-year fraud. Tell me where you see holes in my reading of law, my SC ruling or case cites, etc.
There are HUGE ramifications if 'American Glasnost' (Tax Honesty grown to scale, including indictment of co-conspiratorial members of Congress under STATE, not federal laws on fraud, obstructing justice, etc) succeeds. There would be as much as $1 trillion in revenues sucked out of the pork-line in D.C.; unconstitutional arrogations and over-regulation would dry up; the private economy would mushroom; America would be the world's tax haven; tens of millions of moms could come home.
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One of my pet peeves with online forums is the propensity so many people have with highjacking other peoples postings.
Interesting post, David. Too bad it has nothing at all to do with this thread. You'll notice, David, that I've already asked Bruce to not take this thread off-point. Now I'm having to say it again for your benefit.
David, you've got some important things to say. Why don't you start your own thread? I promise I won't highjack your thread if you stop highjacking mine.
Sorry; I didn't mean to be a hijacker! Please note that I do mention your articles, book, and website at the New Geneva Study Center site, and have a long excerpt from your teaching about the position of the church vis-a-vis the state, on the article entitled "A Biblical Approach to Taxation". I do believe that American Glasnost (i.e., Christians calling the civil magistrate to task under law) is harmonious with the subject of unincorporated churches.
I am part of the house church 'movement' -- the original form of Christian church propagation, polity, and community, still going on today around the world. It's one of the avenues that people can follow, either when they're deciding what "legal form" to take, or when an existing organized church decides to unincorporate and starts looking at its structure, community life, and presuppositions more closely.
The nice thing about local groups of believers meeting in homes and following the NT model of polity, fellowship, and community, is that they don't need a legal form or organization at all; an average house church (in America) is 4-6 families and a few singles. It's one possibility, for those who read your book and decide to look more closely at being the Church, rather than "doing church".
Email this page to someone.
