posted
In response to Bruce Woodford's comment regarding the New Testament Church and I quote...
"they need not tithe as there is no special priesthood to be supported, they need bring no offerings to build or maintain a temple building because they ARE the temple in which God dwells. So 100% of what they give can be invested in direct ministry of the Gospel to the lost and of contributions to poor saints."
I agree with there being no elite special priesthood,for we are a kingdom of priests, but I disagree with we need not tithe... Wherever your local body meets, there should be tithes and givings brought into that storehouse to be distributed as the Spirit would lead. And the Spirit will speak to and through the presbyterical leadership as to distribution of those givings. Usually in a "It seems good to us and the Holy Spirit that we do this." manner. This of course being that the specific need does not already fit under a specific scriptural instruction of meeting it.
Nowhere in scripture does it say that tithing stopped. Nor did priesthood stop...it simply expanded to as many as should receive Him. We are a..."chosen race a royal priesthood."
Let's take it a step further...It's all His...let's not just quarrel about ten percent...
My wife and I have personally experienced the blessing of the Lord in the giving of our tithe over and over again. It is a principle of commanded blessing for God's people. Set in place by the Lord Himself. And I quote...
Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "And see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty. Malachi 3:10-12
I know the thoughts your thinking...this is the scripture preachers always use for tithing. However, familiarity does not negate truth, it only breeds contempt for it. And for that matter, we'd better stop using John 3:16 in reference to salvation...cause we all heard it before.
I used to believe tithing was Old Testament. And it was under the Law of which we are no longer under. Until I saw tithing before the Law. Abraham tithed of his spoils to Melchizedek!
And by the way...there is nothing wrong with the tithe going toward paying a preacher of the Gospel. 1 Corinthians 9:12-14 says: "Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share with the altar? So also the Lord has directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel."
And again...
"Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." 1 Timothy 5:17-18
Granted Paul chose not to take oppurtunity of these commands of the Lord, does not mean he told everyone else to do the same. In fact the Apostle was the biggest supporter of these commands. He wrote more on the subject than any other of the Apostles. Most likely because of his choice not to use it, he was able to avoid an appearance of conflict of interest in preaching and teaching it.One of the main reasons he could have the freedom to not use this freedom was due to the fact he did not have a wife and a family to support. He did not have to be concerned in meeting the needs of a family at he same time as running a tent business, travelling and ministering, and overseeing churches.
Anyways before I write a novel...I believe that a person not tithing is in disobedince to the very ordinance of God, not to mention missing out on a commanded blessing of an open heaven, and never depleting storehouses ready to be distributed to as many that have need.
posted
By the way in reply to this as well..."So 100% of what they give can be invested in direct ministry of the Gospel to the lost and of contributions to poor saints."
Financially supporting full-time worker's of the Gospel is investing in the direct ministry of the Gospel.
Having to work a job outside of the preaching the Gospel, limit's you to one location, and to one task for 40hrs minimum a week. Jesus didn't tell the disciples to quit the fishing business for nothing.
Acts 6:2-4 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.
Plain and simple...the ministry of the Word gets neglected when men and and women who are called to do it full time, have to do something else on the side.
posted
Where did Jesus tell his Apostles to quit fishing? Being a fisher of men would not preclude it.
quote: Plain and simple...the ministry of the Word gets neglected when men and and women who are called to do it full time, have to do something else on the side.
Acts 20:34-35 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I (Paul) have shewed you all things, how that so labouring YOU OUGHT to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
Do you really think the multiple leaders in the NT house churches were salaried?
In 1 Tim 5, Paul has considered a class of females needing assistance. These are worthy of "honor." Then he considers a class of senior males - changing genders as is his usual letter writing style - and declares that they are worthy of "double honor." He's teaching us here, as elsewhere, not to neglect the older ones, particularly those who were engaged in Kingdom activities .
You seem to be confusing the local church leaders, elders, with those who were the travelling preachers or apostles. "Preaching" is the general word for proclamation of the gospel OUTSIDE the church. Yes, these "itinerant" workers could "live by the gospel." "Living by the gospel" in that context has nothing to do with the local eldership/leadership as the above text from Acts 20 clearly demonstrates.
Itinerant preachers were/are entitled to recieve support from the church. Jesus commanded such to take nothing with them in their journey. This is an entirely different class of persons than the local "preacher" in today's churches.
May the Lord bless you, brother, as you consider these things. May he also lead me into his truth, too.
Note I said FULL TIME. Multiple home church leaders will not likely be spending time with the group on a full time basis. They will probably be those who have a trade, or a profession and assist with the home church on an availability basis. But there has to be a team leader. There must be a final say on matters to do with that assembly. Otherwise there will be too much wavering, and room for opinion not solution.
The kingdom works by authority, authority creates reponsibilities , and responsibilities demand invested time to fulfill. Someone who will need to devote most of their time to the nurturing and developing of that home church, which by the way if it is operating in the demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit, the Lord will add to there numbers daily. Which will cause a consideration of running out of meeting space depending on the size of the home. Therefore we start in someone else's home another group, or we look into larger facilities. If you move into the larger meeting space it is to facilitate growth only, home churches will still need to be started and maintained to keep intimate personal growth and stability.
The church I am now ministering in was started from a home group, and grew so quickly we had to move into an older school building. Yet we did not leave behind our home churches (We call them Life Groups)
One thing I find in this whole home church movement is we need to be careful we don't lose out on the corporate meeting of the local church. There's an awesome sense of the anointing when we worship the Lord together in a large assembly....it really is powerful! Just like there is something to meeting in smaller more intimate gatherings together. Although I personally feel the smaller home church assemblies should be more frequently in occurrance than the larger assemblies. However there is something that the Lord does when we gather in both settings. And by the way, either setting is to facilitate the Church, not the other way around...right? Otherwise we will start seeing the Church as a building or a house when we know its the people of God.
What it all comes down to in the end with however we are going about meeting together is, are people getting healed, saved, and delivered from Satan's snare? Are we intentionally ministering in the demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit within us, preaching Christ and Him crucified?
This is the crux of the matter...and hey I agree with you brother, we are all learning, and need to allow ourselves to be teachable.
posted
Hello everyone, here is an interesting page on tithing. It is out of the catholic encyclopedia online. Being raised in the church and hearing the teaching on tithing that I have would never have led me to doubt tithing was something we were supposed to do. But I (at this point in time) do not believe it's that cut and dry anymore. We have to remember that tithing included cattle and livestock. The purpose of that being the priests who minister at the alter would have something to eat. When the temple was destroyed around 70 AD, I believe it would be a stretch to assume the christians just began bringing the cattle and livestock to their houses to sacrafice and allocate to the pastors and teachers etc...
In other news I wanted to say how refreshing it was to find a christian discussion board that was not full of anger and malice.
posted
Hi Jason, It's good indeed to meet another brother from Canada on the forum!Welcome! You wrote:"I agree with there being no elite special priesthood,for we are a kingdom of priests, but I disagree with we need not to tithe.
Please note that I said that we need not tithe, but not that we do not GIVE! The new covenant standard of giving is much higher than tithing 10% of our income! It is rather investing 100% of all that we are and have as good stewards of our Master's property which has been entrusted to us!
You also wrote:"Wherever your local body meets, there should be tithes and givings brought into that storehouse to be distributed as the Spirit would lead. And the Spirit will speak to and through the presbyterical leadership as to distribution of those givings."
Could I ask you where this idea fits with I Cor.16:1,2? (Should that presbyterical leadership decide to pay itself salaries out of the "kitty"??
This passage teaches that every believer is to "lay by him in store as God has prospered him." It does not teach any of us to "lay by the elders in store"! In other words, this is a personal, NOT a corporate "laying by in store".
You also wrote:"Nowhere in scripture does it say that tithing stopped. Then you quoted Malachi 3:10-12 but seemed to miss verse 6 where we find out who it was to whom Malachi's instructions were given! They were given to the sons of Jacob, i.e. to Israel!
You also wrote:"I used to believe tithing was Old Testament. And it was under the Law of which we are no longer under. Until I saw tithing before the Law. Abraham tithed of his spoils to Melchizedek!"
Dear brother, the commandment "thou shalt not commit adultery" was also given under the law! My reason for not tithing has nothing to do with whether it was under the law or not! It has to do with the reason for tithing! It was always for the maintenance of a distinct class of ministers (Levites) and for a distinct Aaronic priesthood! There are no such ministers or priests today to whom tithes can be given! Furthermore, the offerings were given for the construction and maintenance of temple buildings! God no longer dwells in temples made with hands so such offerings are obsolete!
You also wrote:"And by the way...there is nothing wrong with the tithe going toward paying a preacher of the Gospel. 1 Corinthians 9:12-14 says: "Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share with the altar? So also the Lord has directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel." And again... "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." 1 Timothy 5:17-18"
You are very right about the two passages above. But neither has anything at all to do with "tithing"! Who is it who is to proclaim the Gospel? Who is it that assigns preachers of the Gospel with that responsibility? (Remember, if men hire a preacher, they are responsible to pay him!) But such is never God's way! "He who pays the piper calls the tune!" Whenever men "pay" a preacher they are creating a debt-based relationship. But the Gospel is based on grace and thus that which is received freely is freely given! (Matt.10:8) The Philippian church did not "pay" the apostle Paul! (Philippians 4:10-19)They had received the Gospel freely from him and thus freely gave to him as the love of Christ constrained them to no longer live unto themselves but rather unto Him who died for them and rose again! (II Cor.5:14,15)
It is the same idea in view in I Tim.5! "Muzzling the ox" is intentionally HINDERING a worker from receiving benefit from his own work which his Master has planned for him to receive! The Lord never intended that His workers should be PAID by men! Rather, He intends that His people would be constrained by the love of Christ to FREELY GIVE! Thus, when the Lord moves the heart of one of His people to give generously to such a diligent worker and they refuse to listen and and obey, they are effectively "muzzling the ox" and are rebelling against God!
You also wrote:" Paul chose not to take oppurtunity of these commands of the Lord, does not mean he told everyone else to do the same. In fact the Apostle was the biggest supporter of these commands. He wrote more on the subject than any other of the Apostles. Most likely because of his choice not to use it, he was able to avoid an appearance of conflict of interest in preaching and teaching it.One of the main reasons he could have the freedom to not use this freedom was due to the fact he did not have a wife and a family to support. He did not have to be concerned in meeting the needs of a family at he same time as running a tent business, travelling and ministering, and overseeing churches."
It is true that Paul did not have a wife and family to support, but he DID support his own fellow workers by laboring with his own hands! (See Acts 20:33-35)I think the whole problem stems from our false concepts of "full-time Christian worker" being "supported" by many "part-time Christians"! (Both are totally foreign to scripture!) Rather, the Lord assigns the work to all of His servants and He who assigns the work also determines the channel of supply by which He will meet the needs of His own servants!
You concluded with these remarks:"I believe that a person not tithing is in disobedince to the very ordinance of God, not to mention missing out on a commanded blessing of an open heaven, and never depleting storehouses ready to be distributed to as many that have need."
My wife and I have been married almost 30 years and have not tithed all that time! Rather we have given considerably more than we ever did as "tithers" and the windows of heaven seem to open wider in proportion!
posted
I find it fascinating how the early church handled money. When we come to understand how God wants us to live in love for one another, giving is never a problem. In this context no one gives out of compulsion but freely. This is what happened with the early church. They shared their possessions and their lives. Because they loved, they cared for one another and therefore giving was a natural and spontaneous action.
Through our new spiritual birth, Jesus Christ has changed out nature. Therefore we are no longer bound to the law written on tablets of stone that compelled individuals to tithe or be cursed. Instead, the new law written in our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit has set us free to serve God with spontaneity and love. It is faith expressing itself through love. But as we know, "the law is not of faith but the man who does them shall live by them." (Gal 3:12)
Tithing has been a huge topic for me and for my wife. The Holy Spirit has led me to study this topic in depth to find out whether tithing was what I had been listening from the pulpit. As I studied the Word, this passage was dramatically fulfilled in my life: "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." I am free, halleluia!!!!
posted
I've gone to that link and saved the article about tithing to my favorites so I can read it later.
Tithing was never a big issue for me, I didn't have a church to tithe in anyway. I haven't been to a church in years. And because I have hardly any church around me I keep my money for my kids. I figure if no one is going to help us, I'll help myself. And I don't care what anyone thinks about that way of thinking. If they don't like it then, they need to start a church like the early church where they all take care of one another.
And giving doesn't have to be just money. It can be anything you give. Just do it with a cheerful heart because God loves it when the giver has a real cheerfulness about it. It's like you really really look forward to giving it.
I want to share just a short story (hopefully) about something I just gave to someone yesterday.
Not long ago my son and I went to Build A Bear workshop and he bought a bear. Well we have neighbor's and the father is sick and they don't have much money because he is on disability. They have a little boy that is the same age as my son. He liked my son's bear and I told him one day that I had some bears (I send soft stuffed animals to children in Pakistan) and I would let him go through the bears and have one. I had saved all my stuff from Build A Bear workshop, like the sack, clothes hanger, bows when I bought my son's bear. So I went and got my bears out and picked out this one bear that I thought the little nieghbor boy would like. I put it in the Build A Bear sack and picked out a little doll hat and outfit and put it on the hanger with the plastic covering and put everything in the sack and took it over to him. It looked just like it came from the Build A Bear store. But I had gotten the bear at a garage sale, the hat from the pet store, and the doll clothes from another garage sale and then just put everything together like it looked like it came from the Build A Bear shop. A little bit later on in the day the little neighbor boy was in my house with his bear and all of a sudden he told me that it could say something. Well sure enough there was a little box in it's tummy and if it was squeezed it would say something really cute. And I thought that's really unusual and unique, it was so cute what it said, I've never heard a stuffed animal have a recording like that before. It intrigued me so I decided to look at the tag on the bear and to my great surprise when I read the tag it said "Stuffed with hugs and kisses made by Build A Bear Workshop". LOL This little bear I had bought at a garage sale turned out to be a bear actually made at Build A Bear. Well needless to say, it made my day!!!! And the little boys day too!!! I had actually unknowingly gave him a real Build A Bear bear.
Well anyway, sorry to get off the subject. But God really really likes it when we have this special feeling of cheerfulness about giving what we are giving. No matter what we give.
posted
Thanks for your reply Kim. That's a great story. This is one of the greatest things about this New Covenant: we're finally free from the heart to be godly - and what a joy that is!
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