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Our fledgling little HC is going well. I'd like to have input from others as to how you incorporate giving within the HC concept. We have two toddlers attending and teach servanthood in everyday life, but we'd also like it to be a deliberate, conscious part of their worship. Thanks.
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Greetings Piglet - so glad to hear things are going on!
We've had some very recent conversations about that very topic right here in our house. Here's my take on things:
First, the outline for giving in the Old Testament is very different that what is emphasized in the New. Jesus told the Pharisees that tithing is what they should do (without giving up the weightier matters (Matt 23/Lk 11) But remember that Jesus spoke while still under the Old Testatment. The N.T. doesn't begin until the death of Christ. The only other reference to tithing is in Hebrews referring to Abraham tithing to Melchezedek, again O.T.
Giving is still a key N.T. element. We've sought the Lord on how He wants us to give, and this what we do and sense we're on the right track for us. My wife and I both feel that 10% of our gross income is a reasonable place to start, having no other specific N.T. numbers from the Lord. We put that into an account, separate from our regular checking account to be used for needs that are brought to our attention. We also give above the 10%, an offering to a widow and fellow minister who is close to our family. We have been blessed tremendously over the years following this format of tithes and offerings, even though giving of tithes is not taught as a command in the N.T. Check out Prov. 3:5-10 Everyone needs to seek God for themselves for this, but this is what we do and we've been very blessed as a result.
Have a great day and please keep us updated on other things in your group. I've started a Bible study with neighbor. It's been so good digging things out of the word to give to others again! Glory to God!
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Once our bodies are offered as a living sacrifice and getting consumed by God's holiness, what is there left to give? I've always been under the impression that being part of the 100% divine ownership makes it that the ongoing offer of my body as a living sacrifice involves all that I am, all that I have and all that I do. "For all things are yours: whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come, all are yours. And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s." 1Cor3,22 Being God's nation of prophets, being members of the royal priesthood and being the embassadors of the ministry of reconciliation means that our entire life is one of giving, forgiving and suffering. We cannot divide the whole.
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
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Tithing belongs exclusively to Israel under the law. Whith Jesus' death on the cross all religious codes the belonged to the Jews were nailed to His cross and buried. Never to comdemn us again. This is why we never see the Christian tithing in the New Testament. No more than we see them sacrificing goats and bull to cover their sins. We see the first century christians giving cheerfully according to their ability when it comes to financial stewartship not dutifully out of a comand. (2 Cor. 8:3-12; 9:5-13) Giving in the earily church was voluntary. ("The Eairy Christians", p. 86) Thoes who benefited from from it were the poor, orphans, widows, sick, prisoners, and strangers not for the upkeep of the church building (there were not any church building like there is today.) or any salaries of any kind. (Cyprain (200-258) was the first Christian writer to mention the practice of financally supporting the clergy. He argued that the Christian clergyshould be supported by the tithe just like the Levites were supported by the tithe. (Cyprian, "Epistle 65.1"; Beyond Tithing", p.104) This is misguided thinking. There is not a Levitical system today. It has been abolished. We are all priest today. If a priest demands a tithe, then all Christians should tithe to one another. Before the eighth century the tithe was voluntary. By the end of the tenth century, it became a legal requirement demanded by the clergy and enforced by secular authorities. ("Beyond Tithing", pp. 2, 149) If a believer wishes to tithe out of personal decision that is fine. Tithing becomes a problem when it is represedted as God's command, binding upon every believer. When tithing is taught as God's command, Christians who can barely make ends meet are guilted into deeper poverty. This evacuates the gospel from being "good news to the poor." (Matt. 11:5; Luke 4:18; 7:22; 1 Cor. 1:26-29; Jam. 2:5-6) Sadly, tithing is often viewed as a litmus test for discipleship. Tithing is no sign of Christian devotion. Christians have been set free from the bondage of tithing.
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Wow! I so agree with all of that! There are so many areas that old covenant worship has crept back into our churches (tithing, experts/mediaries relaying God and his word to the people, reliance upon buildings as if that is where Gods spirit still resides...). If Christ has truley opened up a new way to relate to and worship God (the curtain has been torn- Heb 10 19-21), then why do we continually go back to the old covenant ways and practices? We need to be studying the Word to see how we can be worshiping God as the Church in all it's new covenant glory!
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I just love you people!!! I have finally found a place where people can think outside of the church box! The Old Covenant expired with The New Covenant! We are now under The Law of Liberty, or "the freedom to do what is righteous"! They get it. I'm encouraged! I'm excited! And I'm free!!!
Sorry, just had to do that. I'm new to all of this house church stuff, and ...well, you know. A heretic for Christ, following The Way, Matthew
"We see the first century christians giving cheerfully according to their ability when it comes to financial stewartship not dutifully out of a comand. (2 Cor. 8:3-12; 9:5-13) Giving in the earily church was voluntary. ("The Eairy Christians", p. 86) Thoes who benefited from from it were the poor, orphans, widows, sick, prisoners, and strangers not for the upkeep of the church building (there were not any church building like there is today.) or any salaries of any kind."
First, "Giving in the early church was voluntary". In French, voluntary and willing are the same. Willing deals with will power. Will power can be rooted either in self or in obediance to God's will. ..."for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Phil 2,13 So my reflex is to think that there might be cause for caution here.
When we think of the account of Ananias and Saphira's reported death in Act 5 versus the blessings to the rest of the discipleship, we can see the dramatic difference between voluntary according to God's calling versus willingness according to our own evaluation.
Second: "...or any salaries of any kind."
Jesus and Paul do not agree with this statement
Jesus said: "Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves. Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road. But whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you. And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house. Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you. Luke 10,3-8
Paul wrote: "Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages." 1 Tim 5, 17-18
The spirit of which is: "Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches. Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith." Gal 6, 6-10
So when we say that: "...giving was voluntary in the first century church". we need to see that this "voluntary giving" is the basic response being generated and empowered by the Father Himself, Who institutes in our hearts and our spirits the laws of the New Covenant. Heb 8,8-12
The opportunity as well as the power to offer our bodies to God as living sacrifices, along with our office of ambassador in the reconciliation ministry so that humanity may be reconciled to God, are possible only from the calling that God offers with the salvation in Christ-Jesus. ..."for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Phil 2,13
The caution I am trying to make is that our willingness cannot empower us to obey God for "...man shall not live with bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Mt 4,4
The account of Ananias and Saphira is the tale of a couple who were called but who negotiated their willingness to heed the word that God was activating with the early church.
My view is that the restoration of genuinely feeding from God's mouth is what the Holy Spirit goes on to grow in God's children since the Acts of the Apostle. The response of volunteerly and cheerfully give our all comes directly from hearing God calling and speaking to us personally and communaly. The gospels and some of the apostles' writings have been preserved solely for that restoration, as this is the only way to be empowered into God's satisfaction of our voluntary offering.
In conclusion, tithing is a topic that concerns what I call: "God's one bank account principle" and it comes to me from Paul when he says:
"...let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. 1Cor3, 21-23 T
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
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Benoit, it's good to see you. Hasn't it been awhile?
I think it is important to note that Paul "commanded" the Corinthians to give cheerfully - evidently, after the initial "buzz" of the birth of the church, human nature kicked in and they needed reminding. After awhile it is a drag to be a blessing, and takes work to keep the right attitude. Paul wouldn't have commanded it if it was coming naturally.
Jesus didn't promise a salary, he said they deserved "three hots and a cot" (bed and board), typical middle-eastern hospitality, in exchange for sharing the gospel with the household. The bed and board WAS the wages.That is not at all the same as a monthly stipend to be received no matter how you spend the day. Paul's words were similar, in that we can "read into it" a wage, but he also is recommending that the general, ongoing rule of preachers be to work with their own hands when they can, and to accept food and board when they are traveling. It seems that Paul also accepted offerings for redistribution at the next preaching point and for travel expenses, but he also stressed to the Philippians that he rarely accepted money for personal expenses from the believers,lest the gospel come into disrepute. (Wow, nothing changes, does it!!)
For the giving believer, I think it is important to distinguish the several kinds of giving, both in the Old and New Testaments: there is the discipline of regular giving that is part of the family budget ("set aside your gift in advance" Paul said), distribution to people who are invalids and have no workers in their household (the daily distribution to widoes), and sharing of food with workers of the gospel(elders were to practice hospitality), and there are offerings of thanksgiving, where we give to one another as our way of showing gratitude to the Lord (Barnabas' gift). In the OT, that was, "Tithes, offerings, thank offerings and alms"; in the NT it was "money set aside, hospitality, gifts put at the apostle's feet, and food for the poor", but the overall scheme didn't change - we are to look at what we have as being 100% God's and use it for His glory and for the provision of our own household and to love our neighbors as ourselves.
Even the Levites didn't receive a wage, so much as got a share of the food offered to the Lord. They had their own pastures and flocks to tend. The cash gifts were more for the upkeep of the Temple. The Levites had to provide for themselves most of the time, and took turns doing Temple duty. They were not living a life of leisure, they had to work like everybody else and ADD TO IT their ritual duties. See Joshua 21, for where they are given "pasture, fields and houses" - obviously, to work with their own hands and provide for their households.
I have never heard anyone talk about that, but if you read the description of what they were given under Moses, it's pretty clear.
We've been reading through the Bible as a community, looking for things that were left out of our "spiritual education", and one thing that has jumped out at us is the passage in Deuteronomy 14 where we are commanded to blow the "tithe" on a big party in the presence of the Lord! Two years in your own town, and once every three years in the "big city of Jerusalem".
Hmmm... I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure none of our former professional clergymen preached on THAT!
We've been trying to incorporate that in this way: having a celebratory meal from time to time where we reflect on the goodness of God, and point out that God is not a miser who wants all our goods for himself nor a Robin Hood who steals from the thrifty to give to the shiftless, but a generous and loving God who wants us to enjoy His abundant provision in this life and the life to come! This goes along with the "Agape Feast" concept of the New Covenant as well.
Our overall practice is this: To earmark money to give to the needy or lend to people in a crisis, to have regular giving to ministries and missions that we deem worthy in our new paradigm, to spend a little more money to buy goods and services from our neighbors and local farmers instead of from Wal-Mart, in accord with the idea of "loving your neighbors as yourself" and blessing our family from time to time with something special as a celebration of God's provision.
Yes it has been a while. We have been under constant attack from the inside of our household as Jesus points out in Mt 10, 34-39. But yeaterday I received an email from the server to tell me that someone had writen on a discussion that I am part of, so I obliged.
You wrote:
"...evidently, after the initial "buzz" of the birth of the church,..."
This touches me personally because I am one of those who was touched with a huge "initial buzz" at my new birth. There was no one with whom I could relate to establish contact of this inner reality with any outer reality. As a result, I sank inwardly and 33 years later, I am quite dysfunctional both in and out, while the Great Potter goes on shaping the clay that I am made of.
Initially, at Pentecost, the apostles and disciples were spontaniously given the victory of overcomers. That is what I also experienced for the first 3 months of my new birth. "... the water that I was given became in me a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” Then came the collapse.
I realise that I might seem to be far from the initial topic of teaching toddlers how to give. Someone might decide to move this to a different title. It just seems appropriate to point out that cheerful giving comes as a result of knowing how to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice, so as to grow in our abiding in Him so that He abides in us.
You finished that paragraph with:
"human nature kicked in and they needed reminding. After a while it is a drag to be a blessing, and takes work to keep the right attitude. Paul wouldn't have commanded it if it was coming naturally."
Is that not the point of the entire mission of the Trinity in Christ-Jesus? Namely, the we may receive the divine nature by which we are instructed to put off the old man and to put on the new one so that we do not have the excuse of "the human nature kicking back in"? And if and when it does, are we not equipped with all spiritual blessings to swiftly deal with all issues of concern to the Lord?
So I live with this constant struggle of why did the early church come crashing down as well as I, after such a blessed start in the new life? How does the Lord restore the spriging of His water fountain into everlasting life? Who and where are the genuine overcomers? Why are they not better equipped to host and to feed the flock to the maturity of the overcoming victory by the word of our testimony?
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
My guess is that the early church would look very familiar - there are a handful of faithful Timothys and Apollos, a handful of wicked Ananias and Simon the Sorcerors, and most everyone else is in the middle, needing a lot of care, instruction and discipline to stay on track.
My experience is that in a typical church we can find 2 or 3 families that we consider the "real thing". Perhaps Jesus sees these as the Church He Is Building? And perhaps we shouldn't be discouraged by it, as he said, "Many called, few chosen..." He's not surprised that most don't want to enter in deeper, so perhaps we shouldn't be either?
"For the sake of 10 I will not destroy the city" might also apply, "For the sake of the handful who will overcome, I will not destroy the whole church". So we scatter the seed broadly, disciple diligently, wait for fruit patiently.
Welcome back, Benoit. I thought your tracks had vanished on the sands of cyberspace but... here you are. Looks as if the Devil is still at the length of his chain, vexing you and yours. Be strong in his might, my brother.
Greetings to LA, back in 2008 from a well-deserved break.
Matthew, may the Lord make you a mighty encourager on the internet and, of course, in real life there in AL.
Just a thought: The famous offering mentioned in Corinthians was a relief offering. Yet notice how the NIV makes it look as if it were a regular event.
1 Corinthians 16:2-3 NIV On the first day of EVERY WEEK, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:2 KJV Upon the first day of THE week let EVERY ONE of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
That aside, it was the Jerusalem church which had formerly practiced communal living. Just an observation - am not trying to prove anything. Looks to me as if they (some of them, perhaps) went from rich to poor.
Imagine a preacher today writing ahead to tell others that he desired no collections when he arrived. Notice, too, the transparency which surrounded this transaction. Everything up front and visible.
Piglet- I am fairly new to house church, but one thing that has delighted me is the effect it has had on our children! We are slowly figuring out as a group how to give of our money, but there has been a couple of situations where someone in our group has known of someone in need and we have all come together to give to them. As a family we give to some missionaries and ministeries as well. The kids have been around and watching and listening and unbeknownst to me internalizing this all. I noticed it when our oldest who is 14 decided on her own (seriously, no encouragement from us) decided that she wanted to use money that she makes from babysitting that she was planning on using to pay the monthly bill for a cell phone to suport a needy child overseas. She actually gave up having a cell phone so that she could give to a needy child!!! Kids watch us and listen and pick up more than we know I think!
quote:Originally posted by D Anderson: Hi there, all you saints of the Most High.
*snip*Matthew, may the Lord make you a mighty encourager on the internet and, of course, in real life there in AL.
Thank you D Anderson, I am currently going through a crash-course on getting free from the church. I can't remember when I've been so free! I believe the church is called the IC here. I am wonder if that is not a misspelling of the word ick? Maybe you know... Anyway, I am posting quite a bit on my MySpace sight. So far I have been freed from tithing, guilt fasting, the IC, novice shepherds, and the lordship of "Pastors." Something new almost every day to offend my theology. How wonderful!
quote:Originally posted by JeanneH: *snip* I agree Mathew- I love this group too!!!
So far I have been set free from tithing, religious "guilt" fasting, novice "ministers," the lordship of Pastors and the IC,. Something new almost every day to offend my theology. How long have you been doing home church? Any Ideas on how to further offend my religious upbringing. :^)
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Thank you David for the welcome back. Jeanne, I enjoyed reading about your 14 years old's gesture. As you read on, you will see a story about something similar in Kenya's civil unrest.
David, you wrote me: "I thought your tracks had vanished on the sands of cyberspace but... here you are." You also mentioned in the same post: "Notice, too, the transparency which surrounded this transaction."
The matter of ID and of transparency are currently a very crutial discourse that's being held at the junction of globalization's governance and of the Internet's deployment, where, for those of us who know the Lord, we know that He is in fact leading the way, no matter what the direction might be! I recently wrote to a forum of such level of governance who were discussing the culture of the Internet's Open ID:
"When we speak of Open ID, we speak of learning the discipline to live in the light of clarity and of transparency. In simple terms, Open ID is the life long disposition of learning to be oneself in genuine, authentic honesty of truthfulness, with all of my strengths and weaknesses. What ever breaks this code is in pretense land, where mental illness and corruption thrive."
I am mentioning this, because I have used the Internet specifically to "mine" such transparent ID, knowing that darkness does receed when the light shines. And so, I can now offer complete transparency to anyone interested about my cyber ID and tracks, because I began to keep a record in the Public Domain since April 25, 2005 at a yahoo group called Loving God: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lovingGod/messages/125?viscount=-30&l=1
The context of Loving God yahoo group is one of an Internet lab, made of almost 30 discussion groups which are owned by someone who's life key concept is "to know everything and to apply it usefully". He is a young mathematician phd who was born in the US from Lithuanian parents. When the Soviet empire came down, he moved back with his family to Vilnus, the capital of Lithuania.
He began to develop a website called Minciu Sodas, which means Orchard of Thoughts, in Lithuanian. He serves independent thinkers and marginilised people from around the world, hoping to eventually spread in all languages of the world.
What you will see with my tracks at Loving God and Minciu Sodas, is an intimate exposure of what the world and most religions consider to be "vile" and "foolish"; the kind that Paul describes when he says: "For the Lord has chosen the foolish things of this world...and the vile things of this world, to confound the wise and powerful of this world."
I say so because my approach (or theology) is to hide nothing, when it comes to weaknesses and failures, just as if I was living under the same roof as all humans, where God lives and governs since April 25, 2005.
When I consider the thecnological depth of ignorance I started from and the distance that I travelled in terms of Open cyber ID with its personal tracking, I must say that I was blessed by the Lord indeed. The fact that you guys are still welcoming me back is one great proof of that, amongst many others.
Such blessings are now sprouting for Minciu Sodas, at the fore front of Kenya's current troubled waters, where the network is distributing a transparent means by which to distribute instant communication and currency to the people who are stuck on the front line of misery caused by the crisis: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learningfromeachother/message/1425
In that letter, you will see links to a chat line where people exchange phone numbers along with their most pressing needs and where funds are distributed directly where needed. As an example, there was a dad who was reporting on the phone to someone of Minciu, that for supper, he was boiling water and adding sugar to it. That was the meal of his family on that night. We were positioned to reach him with releif on that same night. There are many other great live example of releif, from stranger to stranger that goes on at that Internet lab: http://www.ms.lt/news.php
I'll conclude this post by quoting Laurie Ann's:
"For the sake of the handful who will overcome, I will not destroy the whole church". So we scatter the seed broadly, disciple diligently, wait for fruit patiently.
Andrius Kulikauskas, the owner of Minciu Sodas, has offered me an Internet ground to do just that, just as Radically Christian Café does as well in its own way, by offering me contact in the Spirit of transparent renewal, in the communion of others who live the same as I. Thank you all for caring by carrying on the good fight!
-Dear Father, time is so short and the harvest is so big. Please show us how to live from glory to glory, by faith for the faith and guide us all from faith to faith within Your kingdom and justice, in the serenity of Your peace so that You may release the strength of Your joy in our midst, from within each one of Your children to the ends of the earth...in the name of Your Son, our brother, savior and Lord Christ-Jesus I pray...amen to Your Yes in us all...
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
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Wow! There has been so much going on here I am having a hard time keeping up- great stuff though! Keep it up- I am learning a ton!
Mathew, my family and I, along with a small group of other families and singles (and even some neighbor kids who are friends with our kids but whos parents don't come) have been meeting together as a house church for about a year and a half. It is so fun reading your posts and seeing how much you are learning from the word right now! I must admit you are on a quicker learning curve to offending your religious upbringing than I . It has been a bit of a slower process as I have read the word both personaly, and along with our small group with my IC colored glasses taken off over these past couple of years. But I have deffintely experienced the joy and excitement that I sense in your posts as I have seen the church from a completely different perspective (a much more biblical one I think). So much freedom, passion, zeal, wisdom joy and peace is ours in Christ if we but take it!!! I will be praying for you that God guides you to a group of people that you can experience The Holy Spirit using each of you as you come together to worship Him and grow in unity and maturity together! It is deffinately not always easy, but I am loving it!
quote:Originally posted by JeanneH: *snip*So much freedom, passion, zeal, wisdom joy and peace is ours in Christ if we but take it!!! I will be praying for you that God guides you to a group of people that you can experience The Holy Spirit using each of you as you come together to worship Him and grow in unity and maturity together! It is definitely not always easy, but I am loving it!
Oh thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you! I say this with tears in my eyes! I am being called prideful (publicly on this forum) and all kinds of things in private from some who post here. All I want is to do is to share what I am finding with others that I thought were looking as well. Even here (where I thought people would be free from religion) I am being attacked, not just my ideas, but I'm even being attacked personally.
[I'm just glad for a spelling utilities, or my dyslexia would show up much worse and I guess the personal attacks would be more intense.]
Please pray for me, and know that you have blessed me greatly! I pray that our Savior and Lord richly reward you for your love.
quote:Originally posted by JeanneH: Your welcome Mathew!
Keep studying, and don't loose your fervor!!!
I have a question, if it's okay. I am finding myself being bogged down by a fellow that keeps calling me prideful. I'm having problems whether or not to just ignore him, (not my nature) or keep something going that is not in line with what I wish to accomplish... Any advice would be wonderful.
This is a strange way to communicate with others for sure. We all have different backgrounds and were drawn to this forum for different reasons. On top of that, we can't rely on body language to help us discern the intents of others words- we only have the words, and our own imaginations which don't always interpret correctly. My advice is to do your best to keep to the subject at hand and try to always think the best of others (give them the benifit of the doubt). Don't, use a public forum to confront another person- if you feel you need to confront someone personaly, or someone has confronted you and you want to answer their confrontation do it personaly through the PM system. "Let your gentleness be evident to all" ph 4:5; "Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone" col 3:6
This is a strange way to communicate with others for sure. We all have different backgrounds and were drawn to this forum for different reasons. On top of that, we can't rely on body language to help us discern the intents of others words...
Thanks for the very wise advice. I know you must have been praying for me last night or this morning. (I fell like I understand cyber-harassment now.) Before I ever even got on here today, I knew the answer. I typed up a document, (and saved it) to answer anyone who ever attempts this again. I now will only dignify their posts with the "cut-and-paste" below. Again, thanks for your wisdom and prayers. They are very appreciated. You have again been used by The Lord in my life. Wrapped in Christ love, Matthew
*cut-and-paste* "I am here to find likeminded Christian believers (Philemon 2:2) that can sharpen my faith, (Hebrews 10:25 [check the Greek]) not a debate forum (2 Timothy 3:1-9). Jesus is my Lord, my Life and my Love. I only wish to please Him more, and I don’t care what man thinks. If I did, I wouldn’t be a Christian in the first place (1 Corinthians 15:19). I am open to correction using facts only (Acts 17:11). I believe that The Bible is full of facts. We were commanded to be wise but harmless (Matthew 10:16). That is my goal here. Thanks.
A heretic for Christ, Matthew *end cut-and-paste*"
You seem to be able to put thoughts to words nicely, and understand what Matthew is talking about, so I ask you to explain to me what he means when he says, "So far I have been freed from tithing, guilt fasting, the IC, novice shepherds, and the lordship of 'Pastors.'"
When the Lord touched my heart I started tithing, started fasting, joined the IC, listened to many novice shepherds, and accepted the leadership of Pastors. And I felt very free. It was something I did willingly out of free choice.
I believe that tithing helps us appreciate that everything, EVERYTHING, good comes from God and is our way of affirming that fact. Also, I believe it works against our selfish nature. What could be more liberating? Some of you may say that we should not give money to a corrupt IC. I agree. 2Jn1:10-11 implies we should not support a false gospel. But Jesus commended the widow who gave all she had to the Jewish religious system. So there is a precedent here to give to an organization established by God--which the Jewish religion was even if the leaders were corrupt.
By fasting, I refer to talking care of my body through temperance. Not eating too much, not eating harmful things, not taking harmful substances and so on. Our bodies are the temples of God and we are to present ourselves a living sacrifice. Before this time I lived to please myself. I indulged my appetite. In fact, I smoked and drank even though I wanted to quit. The Lord set me free of that too. What could be more liberating? Now I have true freedom because I can choose to not partake of them. I didn't have this choice before--or at least I wasn't able to exercise that choice.
I began my walk with Jesus in the home church setting. However, through providential leading I ended up in the Seventh-day Adventist church. I still have a choice as to where I worship and how. I can still worship at home. I can do this and still remain a member of the church--but a little more difficult to remain part of that body. Church attendence is not a requirement. But, since I cannot successfully meet with others in my home I go to a building to meet with others. Maybe one day I will again worship in my home.
I listen to many novice shepherds because the laymen preach and teach at our church. It is truly just like a home setting except the room is larger and it can accomodate many more people and is more readily available to visitors because it is always in the same place, at the same time, and has an address.
Now, the Lordship of Pastors I have not experienced in the SDA church. The SDA church began as a home church. Maybe most do. They struggled with many of the same issues that are discussed here. Should we tithe? What about Elders? And opposed an hierarchy. Today, the church is led by a governing body which answers to Jesus as it Head.
So many of the negative things spoken of here as people relate their bad experiences in the IC simply have not been experienced by myself in the SDA church. That makes it very hard to identify with some of your difficulties. Howerver, I am not ignorant. I hear things and I believe them. But I have not experienced them firsthand. Not in the SDA church.
So the idea that someone is set free from tithing and fasting is foreign to me. I feel that tithing and fasting sets me free. Free from my old self-serving nature. Perhaps you can explain this to me since I beleive you have experienced this first hand.
What great questions you bring up Jeff! I think they are key to understanding why many house churchers have chosen to worship the way that they do! I would love to hear from others on this topic as I am not sure how great I am at explaining my viewpoint- but I will try .
You could talk about this in many ways, but I will bring up something that I have been studying lately- the new and old covenats. It is a great study- here are some references that I have looked up, but there are more. 2 cor 6-18; gal 3:2-ch 4; heb ch7-10; luke 22:20; Jer 31:31-34. Basicaly what I found is that the old cov. lasted from the time of moses till Christs death. It was not bad and had it's own glory, but can't be compared to the glory under the new covenant which is far greater. Its purpose was 1. to show us that we need a savior and cannot work our way to God (the law was basicaly given so that we would fail at keeping it) 2. to picture what would later be fulfilled by Christ.
The new cov. started with Christ and is still in effect today. Under the new cov. 1. The law still leads us to Christ. Now, as believer, we have Gods very Spirit living within us! We don't follow rules and regulations, but by the prompting, and with the power of the HS that lives within us. 2. Christ has fulfilled the Old Cov. system- He became the perfect and final sacrifice. We are now free to worship not in a specific place with specific rules, but in spirit and in truth- as Christ told the samaratin woman. A. Priests- uder the old cov. they were mediaries between God and man, under the new,Christ is our perfect priest and all believers are called prists as we are Christs embassadors to unbelievers. Most IC's understand this and want this to be a reality in their churches but the system works against it. People easily fall into old cov. thinking, and see those up front as mediaries (they would deny this, but act in ways that make this true: they rely on them to hear and understand Gods word, they don't act as embassadors to the unbelievers around them but figure that is what they pay the experts to do, etc...). B. Buildings- under the old cov. God resided in the holy of holies in the temple. Under the new he resides in believers. Church buildings cause believers to act as if that is where God resides- that is where they go to worship him, and evangelism to them is bringing people to church rather than seeing themselves as Gods avenue to reach their neighbor. Again this is not the attitude the IC intends, it is just what happens. c. Tithes- under the old cov. these kept the above system working. The IC still need tithes to keep their system working. Under the new cov. God says we are to be a living sacrifice- all of us- our time, talents and money are 100% Gods! We give feely and generously as the Spirit prompts us. Fasting is similar- we don't deny ourselves occasionally, but continually, that God's Spirit can be seen through us. I believe this also goes for following the sabath. Through Christ we have now entered Gods perfect rest! Every day, not just one a week is to be dedicated 100% to him.
So- God didn't lower his standards in the new cov. but actually made them higher which is only possible to meet because God now lives in us and it is his work through us and not our own. Even though the standards are higher our lives are much freer- amazing how God works!
Our worship should reflect this new way of living! We read of this new way of gathering together in many places in the new testament. Many times we misinterpret these passages because we are looking at them through the way we have always experienced Church to be. Many of us here are striving to come together in a different way- one in which the new cov. principles are honored, and a way in which we are empowered to live the "new life" the Bible tells us that we have in Christ.
Pat, I should have weighed in on this subject much earlier when you first answered Piglet. Christ did not reconfirm the Old Covenant when he came. We was confirming the New Covenant, then he shed his blood to confirm it. Why would he teach them the Old Covenant when he knew he came to cause it to pass away. It was his work to confirm the New Covenant with His people prior to his death for it was His blood that ratified it. This is what Daniel prophesied in Daniel 9:27--that Christ would confirm the covenant for 1 week (which we all understand to be 7 prophetic years).
Here is what I understand about the two covenants.
A covenant is a testament or will. (Strong's 1242; diathēkē)
That is why the need for the testator to die. (Heb 9:16)
A will is of no effect while the testator lives. But once he dies the will cannot be changed. (Heb 9:17; Gal 3:15)
Both the Old and New Covenants were ratified with blood. (Heb 9:18,20)
The Old Covenant was ratified with the blood of animals. (Heb 9:19)
The New Covenant was ratified with the blood of Jesus. (Matt 26:28)
In the Old Covenant the people were commanded to keep God's statutes, commandments, and judgments and they agreed to do so (Deu 26:17). But because their flesh was weak [sinful] they could not do it (Mark 14:38; Romans 8:3). They said they would do all that the Lord commanded them (Deu 5:27) but they did not have a right heart (Deu 5:29).
In the New Covenant the Lord promised to do for us what was lacking in the Old Covenant. There was nothing wrong with the Lord's part of the agreement--he was faithful. But there was a problem with the peoples side of the agreement (Heb 8:8). They did not keep his commandments because they did not have a heart right for obedience (Deu 5:29). Thus the Lord made a New Covenant with the house of Jacob and Israel (Heb 8:8). He would write his law in their hearts and minds (Jer 31:31,33; Heb 8:8,10).
So it makes sense to me that anything in this covenant would have been laid down prior to Jesus' death after which no man could change it. So any changes Christ instated must have been done so before his death when he was confirming this covenant with his people.
JH, I can agree with many things you said but I still believe that though God has rightful ownership of 100% of what we consider our own he only requires a tithe (10%). Why would he give us something and then ask for all of it back?
Paul was the greatest evangelist for Christ yet even he did not give 100% of his time to God's work as you suggest we are required to do. Remember, Paul labored to support himself and others. I don't know about you but when I work I try to give my all to it. I am thinking very hard about what I am doing and am not praising God, praying, or worshipping him as I do on the Sabbath. God only gave us permission to be idle one day a week and that was the 7th day. He commanded us to work the other six. I think if I sat down and did nothing but be holy all week the Lord would probably punish me for being lazy by letting me starve.
Pro 18:9 He also that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster. Pro 19:24 A slothful man hideth his hand in his bosom, and will not so much as bring it to his mouth again.
It's an appealing concept to relax all week but we have clear instructions in this matter. Anything contrary to scripture would be considered disobedience regardless of how pious it may make us feel. God wants us to follow his instructions even though another way seemeth right to us. And, we should not be like Balaam and pray for the Spirit to lead us contrary to God's word.
Many people who make the same argument as you have presented here probably don't even give 1% in reality. They talk it up real good but their heart is actually very stingy. I Hope you are sincere and not just preaching.
There a time for everything. A time to work and a time to worship. When I work I can certainly do it as unto the Lord. But even when I am working on something for my wife she likes for me to stop and spend quality time with her when she has my undivided attention. This, I believe, is the purpose of the Sabbath and is why the Lord allows us to cease from our labor on that day. Certainly, He is our rest always. But He doesn't like us to sit idly by when it is time to work. Nor does He appreciate it when we do not give Him our undivided attention one day in seven.
Sometimes our desire is to give the Lord everything but in reality we are not even giving him the portion He has asked of us--a 10% tithe and 24 hours without distractions. If this is the case then no matter how good our intentions we are still disobeying His will.
Much of christianity limits the Sabbath to that one 24 hours a week like in the Old Testament's time and as a result, keeps on missing out on the perpetual rest of the day that goes on all week, all year, all life long, feeding from the High Priesthood of Jesus, where the New Covenant lives and where we have been seated together to live our lives from and to. Ep 2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%202;&version=50;
So, Let me introduce you to:
The Perpetual Celebration of Easter upon The Land of Emmanuel!
The Perpetual Celebration of Easter
This is an expression I use to signify that the resurrection of Jesus is the constant source of our empowerment, and not only on that one day a year that traditional Christianity has shove down our historical throat and into our socio-cultural calandar of marketing fabrics.
...upon The Land of Emmanuel
Emmanuel means God with us and it is used in the bible, to announce the birth of Christ. The market place of religion calls this Chrismas. The idea of the Land of Emmanuel comes from Isiah 8, 8. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Is%208;&version=50;
So God being with us is where we, the individuals who make up the family of God, meet our Lord where He calls us to meet with Him, along with The Father. This is an experience that goes on from within each one of God's children. Now, the real sensitive part to see through, is to rise up in the mutual subjection of God's Presence amongst ourselves, so that we may be assembled by His Word becoming flesh into who we each are. By His assembling our togetherness into His Presence, we then become His habitation in Spirit.
In the New Covenant, the Sabbath is from who we are here and now by God's glory at all time! No matter what, where and when we do whatever it is that we are doing, we always are priests, prophets and ambassadors, redeeming time itself with each opportunity, as Paul says, for time is short. It is by our new, divine nature that we are an odour of death to those who are dying and that we are an odour of life to those who are alive.
Sabbath of the New Covenant is the celebration of the Eternal's life Himself in all His glory, being fed to us as the bread and water of life by the Holy Spirit in Christ-Jesus.
The Eternal introduces Himself to Moses and to Israel by saying "I am that I am". Our relationship with God begins and ends in the being and growing into who we each are in the communion of His glory in our midst, that unites us in the same way as Jesus is one with the Father, as the son of man.
From who we are, we get to know what we have in terms of talents and gifts and then, we get to be guided to proceed "to do" in response to the personal calling we are each given, in the communal context that the Lord sets us in. The doing occupies such a small position that Jesus prescribes us to consider ourselves as useless servants, once we've done all that we were told to do. The implication of knowing ourselves to be useless servants, opens the door in our personal experience, to the limitless possibilities of humility and wisdom that Jesus exibited Himself in fulness of grace and truth. Jesus proclaims that "Greater things will you do than I've done, for I am going to the Father and I will answer your prayers"
In simple terms, 1- Being 2-Having 3-Doing The flow of this service of worship forms the universal order of spiritual up bringing into the maturity offered in Christ.
The worship that we are given to live with, is in spirit and in truth so that we may love God from all of our heart, our mind, our soul and our strength, enabling us to love our neighbour as ourselves.
The love that we have for one another is the manifestation of God's presence and power to attract and to draw humanity into the universal healing of the Perpetual Celebration of Easter upon The Land of Emmanuel.
So be it with our spouse and close relations, or with our work or in privacy with the Lord, worship goes on and on for the kingdom is justice, peace and joy by the Holy Spirit, where The Perpetual Celebration of Easter never ends because our feet are solidly grounded where God lives with us, upon the Land of Emmanuel!
If for some personal mathematical sense of organisation and/or integrity one has need for 10% somewhere, go for it, but we can't make it a rule of the New Covenant, for it ain't so. We are now much richer than that...
"Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's." 1 Cor 3,21-23
Also, we cant limit the Sabbath to that one 24 hours a week because we are then at risk to be missing out on the perpetual rest of the day that goes on all week, feeding from the High Priesthood of Jesus, where the New Covenant lives, where we have been seated together to live our lives from and to as the nation of prophets, filling the position of God's ambassadors on earth.
"Please Lord, make mature worshippers out of us all...amen to Your Yes in us all...
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
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I agree, Benoit, the Sabbath looks different in the New Covenant. I think we need to face a "creative tension" between having times that are set aside for literal rest and reflection, and yet to always think "I am not working for my salvation. I can rest in the Lord, in his love and his provision even as I carry out the tasks of the day."
It's important to not have "top down imposition" of a specific Sabbath, nor of forbidding a specific Sabbath. We were once involved in an organized church where the Pastor didn't give the staff a day off - "after all, in the New Covenant every day is a Sabbath!" It was horrible... he had worked out his life to have a balance, and was unaware of how that worked out as it went down the chain of command. He looked rested and peaceful, because of the days he had set aside for sermon preparation and prayer, but some of his staff looked haggard and wild-eyed because their "work for the Lord" was manual labor, program planning, and counseling, all of which are very draining.
I don't think our family has mastered the balance yet, but we are definitely freer and more peaceful than we were when we were running 4 church programs and attending 5 meetings a week! Study of all of the scriptures under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as well as looking at your practical obligations should result in every life looking different, but every believer finding joy. I think?
Folks, what you say sounds really wonderful except where is your scriptural proof? Surely as you celebrate your freedom from your pastors you do not now expect me to come under your lordship, to follow your counsel.
In our discussion let's not forget that this topic is about offerings and the Sabbath was mentioned only as an offering of our time as tithing is an offering of our increase. If these are viewed as a burden then they will be dispatched grudgingly and then where is the blessing in it. When such is the case then I agree with you--why do it? It will profit nothing.(See 2Cor 9:7; 1Cor 13:3)
But then, again, don't we teach our children to share in the same way by strongly encouraging them to do so even when they don't want to? Doesn't that help develop good practice which becomes habit and hopefully part of their character? God definitely reaches out his hand to a stiff-necked people. And, he chastens everyone he loves (Rev 3:19; Heb 12:7).
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. It has been a bit of a slower process as I have read the word both personaly, and along with our small group with my IC colored glasses taken off over these past couple of years. But I have deffintely experienced the joy and excitement that I sense in your posts as I have seen the church from a completely different perspective (a much more biblical one I think). So much freedom, passion, zeal, wisdom joy and peace is ours in Christ if we but take it!!! I will be praying for you that God guides you to a group of people that you can experience The Holy Spirit using each of you as you come together to worship Him and grow in unity and maturity together! It is deffinately not always easy, but I am loving it!