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I'm occasionally informed that house churching is easy - so easy and simple that anybody could do it. Certainly, if God is in it, it can and it will happen. Surely, churching of about any kind - even house churching - has frequently been made more complicated than originally intended.
House churching would need or at least want, it seems to me, some sort of a stable household. This would disqualify many, if not most, in the US where the divorce rate for the saved is about the same as the lost. Of course, folks remarry and start again but there are a lot of unstable households even where one or both parties are believers. Where such marriages are intact, there is often great disharmony which would make the gatherings a strain on everyone. Who would want to be in the cross-fire?
Both spouses should be in general agreement about doctrinal things, 'twould seem. Then, there might ought to be a basic agreement on the format of the meetings. Then, there should be a willingness to love everyone else involved at all times. Then, there should be a willingness to be open and intimate in one's home setting which is a little like being on an examination table.
Anybody left? Anyone can declare themselves to be a church but how about all those one-anothering commands which require dying to self?
Again, almighty God can cause these would-be barriers to instantly evaporate but is house churching really easy? Has it been for you? For me, I'd have to say yes and no. More no than yes, I suppose, as I reflect today. Rewarding? I'm sure about that. But if it is so easy, why are there not more of us? Why is the fold up rate of house churches so high? What's the hold up if it's so simple and easy?
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Whoa! This entire post just vanished from the server so I have sent those who replied a copy of their reply (via the internal mail system of this forum) that they may repost their thoughts.
Sorry. This very, very seldom happens. Fortunately, we have back-up.
...Here is what I had posted and how it connects to us all...may God bless your reading with His meaning into and inthrough it all...
...sent back as requested, because of a rare dysfunction of the server...
Forum: Trends and Happenings Subject: Just how easy is it? Posted By: Benoit17
Message: David, your questions are currently very relevant to me and my family. I am the father of 4 adult children with one who needs daily living assistance for all of her life, So now also grand-father, after 26 years of hanging in there, I literally burned the 2 sheets and the the two pillow cases yesterday, in the backyard of our dwelling quaters. There has been no cheating; it's only been the necessity to survive from the chocking conditions that our marriage has been stuck into. We've been watching each and every opportunity come and go without ever finding the way to "get on with it"...there's been a constant flow of people and opportunities that the Lord goes giving us from the start, but it is as if our reality cannot stand the adversity of the sword of Christ in our midst on the one hand, while our pursuit in the world has been so radical from the start when it comes to "being" the Church as opposed to going, that we are watching the world's power of death swallowing our life instead of the other way around. My putting the fire at the source of our union is to call on God to purify us from 26 years of living under the rule of ignorance so the gold of genuine overcoming obediance may come through, if such gold there is to be found. I went on to make this gesture, for the sake of giving us all an opportunity within our common time and space, to get on with the fulness of Him Who fills all in all. The scriptural basis I hope to be tuned with is in Heb 12: See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, ?Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.? 27 Now this, ?Yet once more,? indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
As one who was saved from the traditional background of the Roman Catholic church at 16 yeard old and from a minor but potent stardom social status, the simplicity of the home life that I have sought to cultivate for our family since I met my wife at 22 years old, is the perpetual celebration of Easter from upon the Land of Emmanuel. The power of resurrection and the Presence of God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The sheets and pillow cases have been consumed by the flammes about 18 hours ago, but the scorching pain of the heat is going to go on until the state of obediance becomes stable in the Presence of God's Holiness...
I am writing this here today in the hope that it can serve as an example of the fact that house church is as varied and as diversified as the identity of each family. What I did yesterday, I would never prescribe to anyone. Our personal situation is such, that we've become a small island of our own, with our own culture. I sent a signal to everyone that God's voice must be heard and obeyed if we are to survive and get on with actually LIVING... Thanks for bearing with me...
Thank you Lord...may You make good use of our confusion...
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
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Forum: Trends and Happenings Subject: Just how easy is it? Posted By: Faith
Message: I think people make it hard because they feel they have to live up to some preconceived idea of what church is, much like what the IC is. They feel they have to do this, do that, be this way all the time, etc.
Folks we are perfect only in Christ. Our flesh is not perfect. We get tired, moody, etc. just like everyone else. The difference is in our hearts. We should have a different way of looking at things than the world does. However, we must still live in the world and thus cope with the same things.
Love the Lord with all your heart and soul and mind. Love others. Come out of the world to keep yourself unspotted. Don't sweat the small stuff like how many times to meet, how many songs to sing, prayers to pray, studies to study, or good deeds to perform.
Do what your heart says to do at the time. And remember if you don't do what your heart says all the time, that you are are still human. If your family isn't perfect, guess what, no one's is. Just love them and be an example to them of Christ's love. He's the one who can touch each heart and bring everyone in line with his will.
Eccles. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Matthew 22:37-39 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
BTW, why can't there be HC in a divorced house? Wasn't Timothy taught by his grandmother? Thus, there is no set rule that a house church must consist of a husband, wife, children, is there? Also I must say that those who are in a marriage with an unbeliever would not be disqualified from being the church as in part of the body; though they may or may not have others to fellowship with. And just what type of "format" would constitute pure religion according to scriptures? Isn't that getting close to the small stuff the IC sweats over so much?
Oh to do, to do, to do, to do. I threw away my round tuit a long time ago and just want to be. To be in Christ is all I need to do. He takes care of the rest.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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I didn't write nor imply that households where divorce had occurred (or households of singles) could not meet as or host the church? Nor did I write or imply that things had to be perfect or near perfect. Nor do you know that Timothy's parents or grandparents were divorced or away from home, either. If you were not in such a hurry to disagree, you might have read where I twice - at the beginning and ending - indicated that NONE of these factors were at all insurmountable. They are real issues, nevertheless, for many.
If there is nothing to do or if doing is an insignificant matter why did you quote the text about fearing God and keeping the commandments? If you check it out, "pure religion" does involve intentional activity. Love leads to doing if it's the real deal. If it doesn't - it ain't.
Nowhere are we commanded to "just be" or to "just be the church."
Do we know more than Jesus or John or James?
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.
1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that DOETH the will of God abideth for ever.
If we were discussing justification, which we weren't, then true - it isn't about our activity or merit whatsoever. Once we are justified, we should realize that we were created "in Christ" FOR GOOD WORKS and enjoy serving others in His name instead of making excuses based upon unscriptural slogans. cf: Ephesians 2:10.
God doesn't leave the final judgment scenario to our imagination. He's going to inquire as to what we DID (for the least of his brethren) in this life. If we are really "in Christ" we'll be able to reply in the affirmative by his grace alone.
quote:some sort of a stable household. This would disqualify many, if not most, in the US where the divorce rate for the saved is about the same as the lost. Of course, folks remarry and start again
This is the passage that led me to believe you did not think divorced folks or even single folks (in the next passage mentioning “Both spouses” ) could be or host the church. Specifically because you stated that folks remarry and start again leading me to believe stable homes must be married homes.
quote:Nor did I write or imply that things had to be perfect or near perfect.
Whoa, I didn’t address the whole body of my comments to your comments, but to all of us who do not meet in IC. I think in general the reason there is so much discussion on “how to” is because of the preconceived ideas of what makes a church a church. It is the feeling that we have to live up to some perfect ideal that worries everyone so much; they finally give up. That’s all I meant and was not pointing fingers. I’m sorry you felt I was. It seems we have both misunderstood.
As for Timothy’s grandmother, I was not implying she was divorced; but was a single lady teaching Timothy. Sorry I should have been more clear. As to if she hosted a church, well she had at least 2 gathering, her & her grandson. Your comments I quoted above led me to believe you fell there must be a traditional household (man and wife) rather than the various types we find common today to be stable.
quote:If there is nothing to do or if doing an insignificant matter why did you quote the text about fearing God and keeping the commandments? If you check it out, "pure religion" does involve intentional activity. Love leads to doing if it's the real deal. If it doesn't - it ain't.
Our salvation depends solely on the Lord not our doing. If he is in us and we in him, he takes care of the rest and makes it possible for us to do the things needed. I don’t know of any Christians who deliberately kill, steal, hate God or others. These things come from the heart. We either love God or not and our heart actions show which. We can do loving things because of the Lord’s spirit which changes our hearts.
However, the doing of church seems to be troublesome to many. I believe it is because we feel we must do certain customary things in order to be a church. We must realize there is no mandate to be a church; but to be the church. We must realize we can not perfect a church; but God can and does in each of our hearts. We are the living stones of the church he is building. All we can be are those stones.
Therefore when we give up trying, it is because we were trying to make it ourselves. The first step is to give it up to God and let him do the building. Sometimes he has a small building of 2 or 3, other times 5 or 10 and maybe even 20 or 50. It is up to him to grow each church gathering. Until we realize that and give up our doing, things won’t work correctly. That is why it really is easy. God can do it all. It is only hard because we won’t turn it loose and let him do the work. I believe each of us struggle with this because of our old baggage of the IC’s ideas of what constitutes a church. Once you understand and stop the struggle, you become set free in the Lord to be the church and stop all the looking, fussing, worrying about “how to” and just do what the Lord sets before you.
quote:Nowhere are we commanded to "just be" or to "just be the church."
1 Cor. 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Philip. 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
I might ask where does it tell us to do something to make ourselves and others the church?
Matt. 7:21 is true. However, we can not do the will of God our selves. It is Christ working in us that does the doing.
quote:we should realize that we were created "in Christ" FOR GOOD WORKS and enjoy serving others in His name instead of making excuses based upon unscriptural slogans. cf: Ephesians 2:10.
Ephes. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
By saying we are to be the church instead of doing church, I am not making excuses. I serve God as God places a need in front of me. I do not go about worrying that I am not doing enough for God or hunting good deeds to do like the Pharisee who were sure to obey the law in the letter and not from the heart. Those I have seen who gave up and stopped trying to be the church did so because of guilt they weren’t doing it right or doing enough. They were trying to work their way in to the kingdom by their deeds. That is impossible. Jesus is the only way in regardless of how many works we do. Only he can give us work to do---------we can’t make it. That is my point.
BTW, I have seen those who worked and worked and worked at doing good deeds in their church and community and ignored their family. Needless to say their marriage ended in divorcee and the kids suffered much. So, we must stop trying to work our way and just be who God makes us and do as he leads when he leads. We must stop feeling guilt for not doing enough, stop trying to figure out how to do better. By all this working we ignore our Lord and the cross. He does it all. We just obey his orders when and where he gives them.
I knew someone who said they didn’t visit enough sick and elderly, didn’t study enough, didn’t do this and that enough, could never be good enough and finally gave up and drifted far from God. We should not be this way. His grace is sufficient. He is the one doing the work. We are just the instruments he uses. Give up our will and let him do it. Like the widow who gave one penny, God knows just how much each of us has to give and to be used by him. He requires no more than that. Some he gives a penny, some a dollar and some 20 and thus, requires that much from us. We can only do as he has given us to do. We must stop trying to out do God.
We must also stop comparing ourselves to others. If God gives me a penny to work with, I can’t do 20 works; but only a penny’s worth. When judgment comes, he won’t asked how I used the 20. He will ask how I used the penny. Therefore, each must be faithful in what God has given you------not what he has given someone else. Be what God has made you and you will do what he has given you.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Do you know how much energy is involved in the breaking of a moving object like a car for instance? Now transpose that to the many times that you exort us that we "must stop" this and "must stop that". All that stopping becomes an awful lot of doing, only its is on the doing that goes on reverse mode instead of forward. Mind you, I am not advocating that forward is better that reverse. What I do advocate is that the doing we are called to, comes from the exulted seating we each are given in the heavenly places in Christ-Jesus. This exulted position comes to us by God putting His laws into our heart and into our spirit. This given position puts us where from we have what it takes to deny ourselves, to pick up the cross daily and to follow Jesus. The self that we deny is our soul, which is our independent will power with all of its passions and yearnings, as well as the appetites of the body. From God's gift into our heart and spirit, we put off the old man and we put on the new one. Anyone who counts on God to do that part has yet to be given eternal life in the heart and in the spirit. God will not go on to our soul and body without our continuous invitation; that which Paul describe as the praying ceasselessly. The work of God is that we beleive in the one whom He has sent. For that to be our experience in our soul and body, our part is to deny ourselves, to pick up the cross and to follow Him. Then do we get to know the difference between what is and what is not God's will regarding each detail of our activity of faithful service to our Saviour, our Lord and our Creator. In doing this, then we become in line with what you mean to say in your insistance that:
"Therefore, each must be faithful in what God has given you------not what he has given someone else. Be what God has made you and you will do what he has given you."
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
It seems you have not understood my point. If we let go of our wills and ideas of what we should be doing, God will fill the void with his spirit and his work. You can’t stop anything without his help, just as sin has to be taken from us by him. BTW, were we not exhorted to stop sinning or not continue in sin; but we know we can’t do that ourselves?
However, if one wants to continue to feel guilty for not doing enough, if one wants to figure out how to do it better than God, if one must busy one’s self hunting good deeds, if one thinks he can visit every sick person or widow or orphan, if one want to compare one’s self to others, if one want to give up and turn away from God from either discouragement or burn out, that is certainly one’s choice. However, Jesus made a way that we don’t have to do these things. Rather we do just what he gives each of us to do.
quote:What I do advocate is that the doing we are called to, comes from the exulted seating we each are given in the heavenly places in Christ-Jesus. This exulted position comes to us by God putting His laws into our heart and into our spirit. This given position puts us where from we have what it takes to deny ourselves, to pick up the cross daily and to follow Jesus.
Didn’t I state that we are each to do just what Jesus gives us, no more, no less in the example of the penny? Didn’t I state we are not to judge the other person who may be given more or less than us and neither are we to desire to be like them or require them to be like us? Jesus is the one doing the work, if we let him, if we surrender to him. Let him do it and there is no work in stopping or doing.
How did you make work of stopping? That’s like some make a work or stopping sin but then fall back into it because they did not let the Lord do the removing.
Some he gives to public speaking, some to writing, some to sharing in crowds, some to individual comforting, some to waiting tables, some to aid the poor, some to visiting the elderly one on one, others to visiting elderly in large groups, some to meeting in large groups, others to meeting in small families, some to visit many orphans in groups, some to care for only one orphan, etc.
So far the Lord has lead our family away from groups to exhort and comfort individuals and small families in need one on one. He has led us to lone Christians and at other times to lone individuals or families in need of the good news and often in physical need as well. We have never spoke before large crowds, but really had a connection with those who the Lord puts in our path. Our life has been much like that of the good Samaritan. We haven’t looked for deeds to do, we just stumbled upon people with a need and God provided us with things or words to share.
One example comes to mind just now. Years ago my husband was having difficulty keeping employment as the factories in the area kept laying off. He’d get another job and another lay off. That happened several times and often he took a low paying job to make due. One of these times, someone asked him if he’d like to mow for a widow lady who lived down the street. Of course, he took the job. However, it was much more. She was a dear sweet lady who had supported her church for some 60 years or more. Now her family was dead or lived far away and she was all alone. Her church didn’t offer to mow, drive her to town or even visit her.
She would invite my husband in to cool off and have a cold drink after working in the hot sun. They began talking of the Lord and the scriptures. It became a habit to sit and talk each week after mowing. She told me, she learned more of the Lord and the scriptures than in all her years at church during these talks with my husband. She said she’d never heard anyone speak so. She actually heard the word for the first time. However, my dear husband is not a people person, you know not an outgoing talker. He’s a one on one friend to those in need. Our whole family got involved with this lovely widow and I was just furious that her church down the road had forgotten her. They had plenty of time for big fund raisers, etc. but none for their own lonely member. We only had a couple of years and then she passed from our lives.
This is just one example in our life of how being the church differs from meeting at the church, be it in a big building or a home. So those who love meetings have at it. As for me and my family, we will serve the Lord in the world. We meet with those the Lord places in our path when he places them there. We will not hunt for meetings any longer. That is not our calling.
I only shared this experience for those of you who find yourselves trying to force yourself into a mold of what you think church is. I want to encourage each of you to do exactly what the Lord places in your path, be it big or small. God is the only one we must be accountable to, for he is the one who gives us our gifts, abilities and opportunities.
Faith
BTW, I can just see the faces of those in the widow’s church (oh, my!) if they had seen the little church of 2 and sometimes 4 where she met the Lord: in her living room talking to a sweaty mower. J Do ya reckon that meets God’s standards?
One last thought, all that stopping or doing that everyone is insistent on can stop simply by resting in Christ. If one is truly resting, they are not working. J Let Christ do the work in you because you will fail every time you try to do it yourself.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Praise the Lord, Faith, that you and your family have been able to meet with and to minister to this elderly saint and others, too. Wish I could read stuff like that every day!
I'm gonna start a new thread about "the usual and the unusual" where we can explore some of these gathering dynamics in greater detail.
Alas, laptop battery is now dying... See ya....
truelove
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Thank you Faith once again for your sharing about how He will lead and call us to the big, small, one, or more. I think this is such a hard thing for many to understand and honestly Faith I'm beginning to see just how lucky I am that God opened my eyes to His calling in my life and His understanding of what it means to be the church vs. go to church. I hear people practically everyday that struggle with that concept and it is so sad. But, at one time I didn't see it and just went with men (literally) told me what was right and wasn't and now that's a thing of the past. I'm no longer a newborn needing the milk of the word, but grown and matured so that I can recognize His voice where at one time it was so faint and unrecognizable because I was a baby. But anyways, it was like that once for me and how all of a sudden my eyes were open and I saw it... I can't say it's anything that I did. For me it was like the scales were removed from my eyes and everything gradually came into focus. And I know that I know that I know that this is where I am suppose to be and it's free and it's peaceful and yes, it's constantly under attack. But, isn't that the way of the enemy to try to confuse us, take our peace, our joy, and cause dissensions. But,I feel "kindred hearts" here.
Well, have a wonderful day, and I have to say that I have noticed your perseverance and your labor in trying to show your understanding of what Scriptures mean and don't mean. May you see the fruit of your labor. For me I'll be coming into sip on occassion, I've been called to take care of teaching school to the kids. That needs my attention today.
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Frank Viola, a writer and teacher, was recently interviewed and was asked: "What is the average life span of a house church?" He replied: "Most churches survive from 6 months to two years."
That's not very long and things likely disintegrate in a big way before they terminate. If it's so, so easy, what keeps going wrong?
"Easy' and 'hard' are relative terms and cannot totally satisfy us in this inquiry, I'd suppose. Marriage can be easy or hard, too, all in the same day. Coming to Jesus Christ to lay down your burden - what could be easier? Yet, I recall, that once after Jesus did personal evangelism, his disciples asked: who then can be saved? Touring the world as a new member of the Armed Forces sounds easy and fun. Going from house to house, routing out insurgents in Iraq, is not.
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I don't think it is difficult but I think people can make it difficult. Here are a few observations that I would like to offer that lead to the demise of house-churches:
1. Too many people just decide to "get together" and do not consult God's Word about what God wants to accomplish in a gathering (teaching, encouragement, Lord's Supper as a full-meal, open-participatory format, order, and so on). Too many people decide what they want to get out of a meeting instead of what God has in mind.
2. In my experience, most house-churches refuse to establish Biblical leadership. The scripture, IMO, is clear that local church gatherings should have a plurality of elders that are appointed by the Holy Spirit and that serve the flock. Many people who house church are coming out of the IC where leaders are over-zealous and who lord over Christ's church so they believe that NO leadership is the answer. This is a natural, but wrong reaction. Without proper eldership the gathering of Christ's church will fail. The priority of this was modeled by Paul because everywhere he established a church, he established elders.
3. Many people who wish to house-church do so for the wrong reasons. As I stated above, many want to house-church after some "run-in" with the IC or the leadership in an IC. They flock to the house-church thinking it is going to just solve all of their problems. House-churching should be important to us because it is important to Christ. We should gather a particular way because the Lord want's us to and not because we are running away from another way of meeting. It must be based upon Biblical conviction instead of a reaction to a failed experience. Acting by reaction only is a recipe for failure because as soon as the first problem arises in the house-church environment the tendency will be to quit because it was not based upon convictions.
4. This might be a little harsh, but I have seen some people who want to house-church who are just plain hard to get along with. People who are extremely opinionated, difficult to get along with, want to control situations decide that the best way to worship is to house church. Though they would never want to admit it they just really want to control the situation and other people and the informality of the house-church environment just feeds their flesh and allows them to control or lead something. This situation is doomed to fail.
5. A lack of sound Biblical teaching is another reason why house-churches fail. House-churching can turn into a fellowship-fest and a testimony-fest where people just want to share what is going on in their lives. Though necessary, the church of Jesus Christ needs to be built up by God's Word. Someone or multiple people need to crack open God's Word and study it together or teach it. Gathering around the table at Jesus' feet is necessary. Without a sound and steady dose of God's Word the saints will grow weak...even if the fellowship is great.
6. Too many "administrative" meetings. These types of meetings are a trap in my experience. People meet together and decide that they need to do this or do that or worship this way or that way. Meetings are typically an excuse to talk with people that you should already be sharing life with. If you are sharing life with people you are gathering with then the issues that are normally dealt with in a meeting will have already been addressed over coffee, having dinner between families, going to get ice-cream, playing at the park, and so on. These types of meetings lead people to create personal agenda's and they come to the meeting with this agenda. When agenda's conflict the fledgling gathering fails and feelings get hurt. Just gather together following the principles of the Lord, keep it that simple. Don't try to meet too much to "figure" everything out. The Lord will figure it out for you as you go. As you learn from Him, implement. As you see failure, change. Walk in the light as the Lord is in the light! Strong servant-leadership in the elders will help facilitate this...not control this. Death results when people over-administrate and stop sharing life and experiences together.
These are just a few of my personal observations based upon the experiences in my life. If people wish to gather based upon the principles of God's Word and do so in love then it is not difficult. There will be problems but it is not impossible.
quote:I am writing this here today in the hope that it can serve as an example of the fact that house church is as varied and as diversified as the identity of each family. What I did yesterday, I would never prescribe to anyone. Our personal situation is such, that we've become a small island of our own, with our own culture. I sent a signal to everyone that God's voice must be heard and obeyed if we are to survive and get on with actually LIVING... Thanks for bearing with me...
Hey there Benoit,
I see that you reposted your message (which I asked you to do). Did you mean to repost it again?
Anyway, have things improved at your house? Has God continued to reveal Himself in the usual or any unusual ways?
Man, it is easy to become an island. Divide and conquer has always been the enemy's plan.
Brother, your burning that stuff reminded me of how the prophets and others in the Jewish community tore their garments as an expression of inward humiliation or sorrow. Very symbolic outwardly and inwardly, too.
Keep in touch. Would love to rejoice with you after these storms are past or even before they do.
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Your response is greatly appreciated David. The news are currently calm but we definitely require an intervention from the Lord in the Church.
The easiest way to explain our need would be to say that we need the balance and the focus found where the vertical reality of God in our lives meets up with the horizontal experience of love's action and truth of a mature husband-wife-children-community state and dynamics, where the gates of hell do not prevail.
I pray that You make Yourself at home in our midst without restraints dear Father...In the name of Your Son our Brother I ask, for the holiness of Your Spirit to led us and keep us within You until Your return, by the Faith You've given us for the Faith we share...amen to Your yes in us all...
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
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In discussion of "Church Multiplication" and "Church Planting Movements", B. Hogan, G. Patterson. Garrison, and others argue that it's the "refusal to be sending out" that kills the church.
6 months is too long for the same mix of people! And two years is ridiculous. If the disciples had hung around at the same "man of peace's" house for two years, the church would NEVER have left Jerusalem. Peter planted a church in Cornelius's house, and then headed straight back to Jerusalem to report on the breakthrough. Cornelius was a man of peace, a godly man, had his little group of people who had accepted the message. Perhaps Peter left some others there to help out for awhile, but with only 12 "church planters" they couldn't afford to get attached!
The purpose is not to have a gathering with a regular membership but to save, disciple and send out as rapidly as possible! Any person with a Bible in their hands and the Holy Spirit has what they need to start the group in THEIR home or neighborhood.
It is the selfishness of wanting our cozy little group that makes house churches ( and institutional churches, too, for that matter) implode. God wrecks it on purpose - he has a history of doing that sort of thing - for example the persecution after Stephen, the break-up of the Paul-Barnabas team... Even the dispersion of the Jews in the OT was about "what part of WIN THE NATIONS TO ME don't you understand???"
We can get planting the minute we have a couple of families that know what to do... or God can implode us. I think it may be a bit up to us.
I believe the church here can EXplode beyond our dreams, if only we can stop having a "Pit Stop" mentality! GO! GO! GO! That's the word!
Blessings to you, Glory to him! Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
quote:Originally posted by Laurie Ann: The purpose is not to have a gathering with a regular membership but to save, disciple and send out as rapidly as possible! Any person with a Bible in their hands and the Holy Spirit has what they need to start the group in THEIR home or neighborhood.
Laurie Ann, you bring up some very interesting points to consider. I have never really thought about it this way. But I have a few questions to bring out.
It seems to me that not everyone is in the season of life where they can just go out and start a neighborhood gathering or a church in their house. What about a large family where the primary emphasis is on discipling their own children? Who will they gather with? They may be in this stage of life for 10-20 years and to place an emphasis upon "winning the world" instead of their own family would be outside the will of God. Should they not just settle down in a local church gathering and influence who they can influence by their "quiet and peaceful" life?
Also, it is the context of the home and in the raising of children that leaders of the church are prepared. This is what Paul mentions as the qualifications of church elders...men who have been proved by real life and the proof is in the pudding of their honorable family. Too often the church is led by so-called leaders who claim this authority simply because they have a seminary degree or they just decide that they want to go and start something and they are no more qualified to start or lead a church as a non-believer. I believe the Bible outlines more than just discipleship and someone with a Bible as the qualifications for church planting. Sure, we can all have great influence over those around us. Our lifestyle, our teaching and sharing, and so on. But starting a gathering is a totally different thing altogether. One of the great problems of the church is not that there are too few churches being started but too few church being started correctly! A church where the leaders are a plurality of elders who oversee and protect the flock and who do not lord over the flock. Elders who equip the saints for true ministry outside the walls of the church with the vision that God has given the saints instead of using the saints as "human resources" to accomplish what they want to do. They lord and rule over the people instead of support and equip them. Yes, there are plenty of churches. But there are not enough churches where the people are more than just pew-warmers but instead they engage the community in real and meaningful ways.
I appreciate the thought that was put forth in this post and there is much to think about there. But we must be careful in just starting things because we are zealous. A bad foundation leads to a bad structure and ineffective saints.
Actually, we are a large family, relatively speaking, and so, yes, we are in a season of having our ministry focused in our home.
So, our current ministry is to our own children and our neighbors, and to "all whom the Lord calls" - those that find their way into our lives in one way or another. Our secondary ministry is challenging others to do what we are doing, to grow in vision and obedience.
Our slogan is "My home a beachhead for the advance of the Kingdom of God, my family a resistance movement against the Kindgom of darkness." I believe that God wants every household to be a "household of faith", every believer a "royal priest". It is sufficient unto itself, and yet interacts in a community of faith.
We've been amazed by what God's been doing in having us be "keepers at home to the ends of the earth" and in answering prayer. When we moved into our neighborhood, we knew no one. We began to pray every day, "God, bring our neighbors into our lives, and send laborers into the harvest field here" and we are seeing him answer that over and over again.
We are loosely associated with many believing families of similar vision - but we are very careful to continually exhort them to Do what we are doing, rather than to join us! We occasionally invite a family to join us for teaching and music time - but only with a view to modeling. Our house is open, but we don't encourage believers to come regularly at all!
Only when we grasp that a household IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD (Jesus said to "go to a house of peace and say, "The Kingdom of God is among you...) can we avoid "starting badly", to quote. Re-reading the entire Bible understanding that God is pro-family and anti-institution can you grasp that he never wanted anything except homes where his Spirit is at work. Even the Temple was not an institution - It was God's House! He dwelt there! He was the man of peace and rule-maker. People were invited in to eat and drink and worship together. It wasn't a "public place". His plan was that every need of a person and a community would be met through the family, and occasinally those families would assemble in his presence. We've found that by studying that out, and seeking what He meant, that we have a full rich life as a family -- and that our days are filled with others who are touched by our lives.
The only error that is fatal is disobedience to the clear commands of Christ. One church planter found that in Mongolia, as long as they stressed obedience to the Word, and the Spirit and submission to one another, the church grew rapidly and was inherently self-correcting - Fathers tend to be sensible, wives tend to be helpful, and if each man is over his own household, he isn't lording over others. Those who have been in American Churchianity forever are more qualified than most pastors in the rest of the world, and yet failing to reproduce because of a hangup on professional clergy.
My current stance is "Let's obey the Word literally in Everything and see what God does!" and He is doing amazing things. Slowly, but reproducibly! We don't know what we're doing - but we've obeyed the traditions of men long enough - including worrying about making mistakes if I take the Bible "too literally!" - I'm trying to obey the concrete commands of God to the exclusion of everything else - and finding that it is enough -- "Let the older women teach the younger to love their families... men practice hospitality... share from house to house (not just A house)... Find a man of peace... Make disciples...
Does that clarify at all?
Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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This is a humorous sidelight, but I was thinking of the quote that "A family can only do mischief on a small scale -- the government can do mischief on a large scale" - and that seems appropriate. A pastor of 3,000 can do an awful lot of mischief, whereas our little foibles in our little neighborhood can only do so much - but a handful of obedient men can turn the world upside-down - one house at a time!
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
quote: So, our current ministry is to our own children and our neighbors, and to "all whom the Lord calls" - those that find their way into our lives in one way or another. Our secondary ministry is challenging others to do what we are doing, to grow in vision and obedience.
We are loosely associated with many believing families of similar vision - but we are very careful to continually exhort them to Do what we are doing, rather than to join us! We occasionally invite a family to join us for teaching and music time - but only with a view to modeling. Our house is open, but we don't encourage believers to come regularly at all!
This is how I believe home church should be. So many are trying to make home church into a little denomination gathering together under the banner of hc.
Many are so busy trying to figure out how to home church, who should be the elders, how they should meet, and on one board if they should have apostles, they have little time for the actual ministry given to them. BTW, we do have apostles, 12 of them. Why look for more?
It’s like if you saw someone drowning in the lake and instead of jumping in to save them or tossing them a life preserver, you got a bunch of people together and started discussing which life preserver is the best or who is the fastest swimmer or who is the most qualified to decide to use the preserver or the swimmer. By the time it’s all worked out and action taken, the person has drown.
Keep on sharing the good news!
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Thanks for the affirmation, Faith! I'm glad to know that you have found a similar path - one of the distinctives of this movement is how we don't have to convince others to think our way -- we just stumble on people who already are
I agree, we've been so programmed toward "figuring it out" before we act. That is one thing I struggle with a lot -- I was from a very highly intellection ( though not too smart!) family, and this journey is an interesting walk -- Obey first, then you will understand!
I notice that as we meet, elders "emerge". They don't need to be found, really -- especially with long-time Christians under every rock! They are just recognized for their wisdom, if everyone has the chance to speak - it becomes obvious pretty quickly who is talking sense!
Blessings! Laurie Ann Mistress of the Manse in Foyil, OK
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
quote:Originally posted by Laurie Ann: The only error that is fatal is disobedience to the clear commands of Christ. One church planter found that in Mongolia, as long as they stressed obedience to the Word, and the Spirit and submission to one another, the church grew rapidly and was inherently self-correcting - Fathers tend to be sensible, wives tend to be helpful, and if each man is over his own household, he isn't lording over others. Those who have been in American Churchianity forever are more qualified than most pastors in the rest of the world, and yet failing to reproduce because of a hangup on professional clergy.
Well said! I enjoyed your post and I understand a little more clearly what you are talking about.
It reminds me very much of the "fellowship" that I meet regularly with. We teach only obedience to the Word and Spirit and submission to one another. Parents are held in the highest esteem as the final authority and are encouraged to be in that role. And you are right, for the most part each family has stepped up to the plate. It is very exciting.
We always meet as a fellowship but there is never any "pressure" to always be present. Every one knows when and where the gathering is going to be and in the past we have had as few as 5 people (basically 1 family) and sometimes as many as 10 families...it really varies. But regardless of how many we gather in such a way that encourages participation by all and the Spirit of the Lord to rule. We have no membership and we have many families that gather with other groups as well. In that way true fellowship occurs in the body without a "church" lording over its members. Christ is the head of the church, not man! Everyone must be free to be where God wants them to be when God wants them to be there. Freedom in Christ must be paramount.
I am encouraged to hear how God is working in your life and the life of your family. Keep the obedience of faith!
quote:Originally posted by Laurie Ann: I notice that as we meet, elders "emerge". They don't need to be found, really -- especially with long-time Christians under every rock! They are just recognized for their wisdom, if everyone has the chance to speak - it becomes obvious pretty quickly who is talking sense!
Absolutely and well said! Elders are appointed by the Holy Spirit and only recognized by man. Too often churches feel pressured (by something but I don't know what) to just appoint elders instead of just allowing them to emerge in the midst of the body.
quote:Originally posted by Laurie Ann: We are loosely associated with many believing families of similar vision - but we are very careful to continually exhort them to Do what we are doing, rather than to join us! We occasionally invite a family to join us for teaching and music time - but only with a view to modeling. Our house is open, but we don't encourage believers to come regularly at all!
Laurie Ann, sorry to keep posting in response to you but as I have read and reread your post I just absolutely love what was said. It is so good I think I am going to copy it and send it to several families that I am in regular fellowship with. Thanks again.
I do have many questions that maybe you can help me clarify. I could not determine the answers by studying your post so I figured it was just easier to ask. In your loose association with other believers do you regularly meet? Is it such that these other families know that your family is going to be gathering at a specific time and they are free to join you or do they feel that they have to be specifically invited? Do you attend gatherings at their house and are they regular and at a set time where there is just an open door for you and your family to come? Or is it that they have to invite you? I just want to get a feel for how this fellowship of like-minded believers meets, is it regular, open-ended, by invitation only or by what means does who know who is gathering for teaching and music. How many families do you fellowship with like this? Additionally, do you share the Lord's Supper together? Do you feel like these elders protect and oversee the flock in your association of believers?
I know the above is a lot of questions but I curious about the formality and/or informality of these gatherings, what happens, and the regularity and/or irregularity. This is an area of interest for me because our gatherings are specifically called a fellowship of believers instead of a church because of the connotation that "church" holds to many of us who meet. We don't want to be viewed as an institution but a loose association of believers that meets regularly for equipping and encouragement to do our ministry at home and in the community. Maybe being called a fellowship instead of a church is being petty but church means so much to so many people and honestly we don't want to be associated with what is so often called "church". Our gatherings are regular and sometimes they are informal and at other times pretty formal depending on what is going on. But in all things we try to be obedient to God's Word where His Word is clear. The Word of God was given for us to follow and to read "literally", to quote you. I rejoiced in hearing about your unwavering obedience to our Lord.
Thanks so much again for your reply. By the way, I love your family slogan! Is the slogan something every member of your family knows and understands including the children? (yet another question =) Just curious.
Thanks for "pinging me" by private message - I knew I'd dropped some serious stuff here and wanted to get back to it, but actually dreaded seeing whether I'd get negative feedback after the first flurry of activity.
Last q first: My 20 and 18 year old kids "get it" more than we do, although I am the one who feels this need to create poetic slogans! My eldest went off to an intensive program, cutting edge stuff with the hottest names in missions mobilization and strategy -- and at the end of the year she came home saying, I want to be HERE -- we're Doing what they are all Talking about!" We recently did a webbing diagram of how we see our vision, and everyone except the seven year old were actively involved.
I should say here that our family is highly influenced by the Great Commission, and that in all we do, we are thinking not just about our family, or the American church, but developing a ministry that will be faithful to God's Global vision to have All Ethne worship him. Some of my oddness comes from that!
Here's our current activity level: Our first circle is the family, our second our neighbors, our third the believers we have met, mostly through home schooling. We try to keep our calendar free of "regular meetings" of any sort, to be just home and available for our neighbors.
The way this plays out is that weekdays I'm discipling the children, and doing Titus Woman ministry with other women. My husband is in the workplace, seeking to build relationships. Then, Friday night there is a believers meeting at one particular family's house. The main topics there have to do with "How Shall We Then Live" -- kind of deconstructing our lives and analyzing everything for "how can we be more the People of God.
Most who come still attend regular church, and we discuss the home model, especially scripture about it. We, as a family, feel free to go or not, late, even, depending on whether some other need seems more pressing. One night half the group helped a neighbor get the hay in before the rain came, while the other half watched the children and caught up on one another's families in the kitchen! We also discuss practical topics like debt-free living, nourishing our families, sometimes current events in light of scripture - do we obey God rather than man in raising our children? and so on.
Saturday and Sunday, we putter around the house and town, interact with our neighbors in any way we can think of. Sunday morning we have a family worship time, and the centerpiece of that is discussing our family mission, doing music and teaching "Building on Firm Foundations", which is the New Tribes Mission program they use to overview the whole Bible in a storytelling way. This, like all our meetings, is totally subject to change. We try to "see what God is doing" and respond, as John White of DAWN has mentioned.
We often tell people that we worship as a family on Sunday morning and welcome them to join us if they want to. But we don't pursue anyone.
The other thing we do is ANY time we are together with ANYBODY we try to make Acts 2:42 happen: prayer, truth, food and sharing. Particularly, we try to model that for believers and then afterward we point out how natural and easy it was and "That was the Kingdom of God as the apostles thought it should be!" We've done it with pastors who aren't "out" yet (and try not to laugh when we say, Let's pray" and they fall into their pulpit voice and don't expect us to pray, too) we've done it by going to the hospital on a Sunday morning to share and pray, knowing the man would be alone: his other friends would be "at church", and we've done it by inviting a neighbor over for stew, and just making the mealtime prayer a moment of prayer for his needs, too, and asking him if he'd like to hear us sing (music is our family's gift).
We also watch for opportunities to have larger celebrations and invite a lot of believers (and sometimes our neighbors, too, if we think they'll be comfortable) for building relationships - my son's graduation party was also his baptism at the lake, community festivals where we meet as a group to enjoy the event. We don't let these become regular events, but only special occasions.
I really like what you said about meeting with different families at different times, and that they have other relationships going. I think non-exclusiveness will be a key to growth. I hope to see people "grow in the vision" and become more committed to home as the center of their lives, but I'm trying to accept people where they are and build on any interest they have, and we try to see the people God brings into our lives as forming a web of relationships rather than forming a group. As we do so, we see life flow outward along those lines.
I'll end here - and re-read all the replies when I'm more fresh (and probably regret being long-winded here) and make sure I've responded to all inquiries.
Blessings to all! Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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