I am Rich Lindeman, a gasp... Lutheran (IC) pastor in Minnesota (you betcha). I am a former professor of biblical greek, former Army Mash Chaplain, former Prison Chaplain, and former small town municipal judge.
I make no apologies for currently being an IC pastor but fully realize that the IC is struggling these days and that HC is indeed one of the the waves of the future. Mine is a relatively small IC of about 100 members .
I would be very interested in chatting with persons about the transition and how the IC of today can become directly involved in equipping persons for HC of tomorrow.
You forgot to be anonymous, like the rest of us ICers! "Hi,I'm Laurie Ann from Oklahoma and I'm addicted to Churchianity" (Hi, Laurie Ann!)
I want to be the first to welcome you to HC-land. As for me and my house, we used to be the kind of family pastors like you loved to see walking through the door - big family, solid income, healthy faith and a willingness to do whatever the pastor asked of us.
It was a very painful decision for us to leave. We loved church! We'd made huge sacrifices for the sake of our local church many times - even moving from coast to coast just to keep from causing a church split by leaving. However, we have been so greatly blessed by answers to prayer, opportunities to minister to the people "out there" and with a vision that encompasses many nations and future generations. Most of all, we've found so many who are eager and willing to do "whatever it takes, for as long as it takes, to establish the Kingdom of God where ever God calls me" -- including embracing the New Paradigm of house church, when it would be more comfortable to do what they've always done.
My encouragement to you is to take your time, be led of the Holy Spirit moment by moment, keep your eyes open to see who those are that he is "putting in the yoke with you" and be prepared for the day when God says, "Regard not thy stuff...&... go to the land I will show you!"
You might want to look around at the House2House forums as well, as many pastors have checked in there at various stages in their respective journeys.
Blessings! Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
posted
Hello Rich, No offense but I think you have misunderstood HC in a big way – the IC does not equip persons for HC. Rather, the condition of IC in this age is one of the reasons for the growth of HC – unless your definition for HC is IC’s cell group. Sorry.
posted
I don't believe that I have misunderstand the concept of HC at all. I know that HC is not a "small group" within a congregation, but rather a separate entity that functions as a church in itself either as a "Family Church" or as a church that meets in someone's home.
I do realize that HC and IC are two totally separate things. However, I do not believe that means they therefore cannot relate to each other, communicate with each other, support each other, learn from each other, and possibly even occasionally partner with each other in ministries.
Unless of course you are defining HC as "anti IC"... then of course the above would be impossible.
I am just trying to explore possibilities for serving Christ in new ways.
Although I partially agree, if you see the IC as being just one more "people group cluster" with a leader, families and people who spend time together, then a pastor is no more and no less equipped to be a "man/woman of peace" than any other responsible adult. That's good news!
I'll share what all my reading, 2 years of "out of the box" Bible study, practice and missions experience has led me to, for what it is worth - what I would have a pastor do if he were "in my hands" (which you are not ).
I was dropping in, Richard, to suggest that you look at your congregation in a whole new way -- who are the Corneliuses, Lydias and Peters?
Go into their homes and share with them the HC vision. Those who are open to the alternate vision, create a "training house church" where they re-read the New Testament with a TOTALLY NEW filter. Not a Bible study, not a lecture, just reading and talking. No prayer, no kids program. It's great if they read through some kind of Bible reading program together in their devotions, looking for this one thing:
"What did Jesus tell us to do?" taking note of what he Didn't tell us to do: such as having professional clergy and building programs.
Release those who are willing, to stop church attendance. Period. No Sunday AM, no midweek choir. No tithing, no teaching, no morning prayer meeting. Each should stay home and read the scriptures as a family or a community. Eat meals with other believers, just to "get together". Visit the sick (and do all the rest of Matt. 25). Get to know their neighbors. Do the "one anothers" with other believers who are willing to try it.
Visit them informally, only to ask the question, "How is it going?" and assume that THEY are going to figure out the vision faster than you can -- they have less training to overcome, and less vested interest in the outcome.
Realizing that it will take at least a year before they are fully "detoxed" from church-as-usual, don't look for any results except a renewing of the mind in the area of "What is the Kingdom of God? Why did Jesus say it was right here?"
Resources I highly recommend: Church Planting Training CD by Brian Hogan of YWAM (http://www.cafepress.com/buy/farmer/-/pv_design_prod/p_storeid.27759856/pNo_27759856/id_8184442/opt_/pg_/c_/fpt_) "Global House Church Movement" Rad Zdero "Church Planting Movements" David Garrison "Houses that Change the World" Wolfgang Simson "Back to Jerusalem" by three Chinese House Church leaders
"Fear not, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by name and you are mine!" God will show the way!
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
posted
I am not interested in debating the merits of either HC or IC. They both have their merits and shotcomings. I personally believe in both HC and IC as being valid expressions of the Christian Church in our times. There are of course many good and many not so good ICs, and there are many good and many not so good HCs. But I always strive to look for Christ in each one.
Therefore I am not interested in telling the members of my IC to quit our congregation and form HCs. (although they are of course free to do so, and would likely have my blessing if they did.
But I am always interested in sincere efforts at unity in the church universal. For example, although mine is a white Lutheran Congregation, we are in partnership with a black Pentecostal congregation that I invited to share our building facilities. We call ourselves "Two Churches, One Location"... see http://www.twochurches.net Although our two churches are extremely different in culture and race and even in elements of Christian doctrine, we often work together and fellowship together (serving a community meal for the poor, etc...)
Similarly, I am interested in the possibility of partnering with Home Churches in our community. I have no fear of telling our members about HCs or of exploring ways of cooperation with HCs in our area if it serves Christ to do so.
Christian Unity is NOT just a matter of separating ourselves into small enough groups so that we "do not fight".(although that may help and the infighting of ICs is horendous) But rather Christian Unity is a matter of us actually working together in Christ to do things that we cannot possibly do alone.
In other words, it would be wrong for me to say to the HC "I don't need you" and it is wrong for the HC to say to the IC "I don't need you". Check out I Cor 12:12f.
posted
I'd like to briefly distinguish here two kinds of house churches. One is the "just like regular church, only better!" version, where people form a group of people that meet regularly, does all the same things as we've always done. House church is seen as just one more "flavor" of church to choose from. Unity in this case is impossible, as God is leading each person/family/ministry in a different way - because they have a unique calling and gifts! "Splits" happen as we try to "stay in Jerusalem" when Jesus said to "Go!"
The other "house church" (or simple or organic) has a completely different focus. "What did Jesus command us to do? What kind of People does God want? How can I help you discover and do God's will for your life today?" Unity comes when we challenge one another to be more and more conformed to Christ and more and more obedient to his commands, and when we exercise our gifts and then move on. We form communities of loosely related households, not organizations.
In reading the New Testament,I don't see house church as optional - except in the same way that the 10 commandments are "optional" - we've been told what to do, and can do it or not. "Go to a village...find a man..." "feed the poor... visit the prisoner..." "Don't call any man Rabbi"... "Don't be like the Pharisees... who love...synagogues..."
This other kind of fellowship doesn't form a group, it starts a movement. The focus is "getting the gospel to the next house... the next village... the next ethnic group... the next nation".
The unity here, then, is the unity that comes from obeying Christ - Jesus only used the word once, and this is the context: John 17:23 "May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." "Unity" is not believers setting aside doctrinal differences so they can have a good time together. Unity "lets the world know" God's love by "doing what he commands", which is "GO make disciples..."
So, I challenge our brother, and others, to seriously consider: Is God really calling you to create a marriage between house-church-as-a-program and institutional church? Or is He calling you to a new vision of what His Kingdom is supposed to be?
It matters a great deal - since his promise to be "with us" hinges on our obedience to what he commands... and billions of people are waiting for a gospel that keeps getting stuck in Suburban Fortresses or cozy dens instead of reaching the ends of the earth.
Blessings! Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
>Unity is a good thing, but not a goal. Jesus preached or taught very little on unity - >he prayed for it, and not the unity of an organized membership with cardinal rules, >but the kind of oneness that comes from being family. (father-son unity) and >working things out moment by moment. I suspect that he knew that unity would be >a God-thing, not something we could attain by human effort. Hence, he made it >virtually his death bed prayer. He didn't ask us, he asked God.
>Unity is rather more natural in the extended household model, especially if we >meet "house to house" "from time to time" rather than trying to form an >organization. We don't "join" house church - we are the church!
>I think it is life-or-death essential that we debate IC and HC. I often think that >Religion and Politics are the ONLY things worth debating, and we quench those >debates at great cost!
>God has spelled out very clearly how he wants His people to live. I, personally, >ignored that long enough. Jesus left very little wiggle-room in his instructions, Paul >was very explicit in what he said, and Acts 2:42 could not be more clear about >what the apostles thought they were to be doing.
>I'm hurt that your response to me was so defensive. You asked for help in the >"transition", I came to the conclusion you were looking for a change. If you just >want to add house church to your programs, then I can't help you. There are a lot >of knock-down-drag-outs, like me who feel that IC is not only not right, it is very >terribly wrong - and as one of the most active members of every church I attended >for over 40 years, I feel very qualified to speak to that. My plaques, my momentos, >my certificates, my letters of recommendation, my curriculum... would you like to >see my "wood, hay, stubble pile?"
>IC keeps me away from my home, contrary to His word. IC wastes God's money. >IC takes all my time. >I don't blame you, or anyone else -it is what we inherited. But we must face the >truth.
>Enough with the Kingdoms of Men! Let us go on with God!
>I invite you to leave the shell behind. "The Glory Has Departed the Temple" and >moved into the hearts and homes of men. It will cost you everything -- Jesus told >us it would. But He is there!
>Blessings! >Laurie Ann
Richard responds:
It is clear that we are not going to agree on these things.
I certainly cannot agree that Christian Unity is something to be just prayed for and left up to God. Unity is indeed a valid goal for all Christians to work for... just as peace is a valid goal to work for. Within the church the lofty goals of peace and unity should be talked about and encouraged and dreamed about and planned, and prayed for and worked for fervently. Neither goal is easily attained, but we dare not give up on such things as this because they are indeed godly goals that Jesus Christ both prayed and worked for throughout his life on earth.
As I have already stated, I have absolutely no interest in debating HC as opposed to IC. If that is what this forum is all about then I am clearly in the wrong place. I believe that both HC and IC are valid expressions of Christian church in our times. Your refusal to let go of this kind of inflamatory debate indicates pretty clearly to me that you must have experienced some personal wounds by one or more ICs that have not yet healed or that you are not permitting to heal. I can indeed empathize with that. For I too have experienced severe wounds by an IC in the past. But I have let go of these things and moved on. By the grace of God my own wounds have healed sufficiently for me to forgive the sins of the past and to seek God's will and purposes within an IC that serves Christ faithfully in the present.
The "transition" I was referring to is a transition from present church to future church. This is something I have thought and prayed about a great deal. It is clear to me that HC will play a very significant role in the future church. But I do not at all believe that means the end of the IC. The IC will continue on and adapt as it has always done in the past. Those ICs that serve Christ faithfully will be blessed by Him. And those HCs that serve Christ faithfully will be blessed by Him. HC and IC are indeed very different, but nevertheless we are still part of the same family in Christ and members of his body the church.
Part of the faithfulness that is required for all of us is to constantly work and pray for Christian unity. And that is why I am here as an IC pastor seeking to find common ground within a HC forum. I am here to tell you that every IC does not need to be the enemy of HC and every HC does not need to be the enemy of IC. If this is a message that sounds sour in your ears then I will just shake off my dust and move on.
Sorry, I don’t have time for this. If there is no interest here in pursuing the subjects of Christian Unity and Peace then I am out of here…
posted
Hiya Rich, my brother in Christ in snowy MN, You are as WELCOME here as anyone who is willing to be led by the Lord and his word. Thank you for coming by and speaking your peace. I consider it noble of you to be willing to learn from others. We ought to be able to build upon that if and as God wills.
According to George Barna, just last month:
quote:Involvement in a house church is rapidly growing, although the transition is occurring with some trepidation: four out of every five house church participants maintain some connection to a conventional church as well.
Would you delete my posts here? I evidently did not strike the right tone, and have been greatly misunderstood by RL, and don't want that to stand in the way of his getting other replies.
Also, would you ask if you can delete his post where he posted my PM to him? I didn't really intend that for everyone. It's not my custom to brag publicly about what a great Christian I used to be. (#*.*#)
Blessings to you both as you seek His will for your life.
Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
quote:I would be very interested in chatting with persons about the transition and how the IC of today can become directly involved in equipping persons for HC of tomorrow.
to
quote:However, I do not believe that means they therefore cannot relate to each other, communicate with each other, support each other, learn from each other, and possibly even occasionally partner with each other in ministries.
It's quite a change in tone.
quote:I am not interested in debating the merits of either HC or IC. They both have their merits and shotcomings.
Do you mean you don't want to discuss the good & bad about both? How can you expect to learn from each other then? How do you intend to partnership with HC then - unity by the Spirit or the spirit of compromising? What brings you here and what do you expect to achieve if you are not willing to discuss anyway?
I can and will remove anything you wrote, sister. Rich quoted some of it so I want to ask him if it's OK. If I don't hear from him about it, I'll assume that I can edit out your stuff that he quoted. I'll give him a day to reply.
I do hope you will re-state your views, sister. Obviously, you have given these matters much thought.
Let's have this discussion and see where it goes. Can iron still sharpen iron?
posted
Laurie Ann, You've got to ask yourselves what drove you to write the 2nd reply? Just so to let you know, you have already given the answer
quote:I'll share what all my reading, 2 years of "out of the box" Bible study, practice and missions experience has led me to, for what it is worth - what I would have a pastor do if he were "in my hands" (which you are not ).
Were the 2 years a waste of time and all fleshy? Was your body burning with a great desire to share what you have learnt? Did you in your deepest self cry out "Here am I, send me"? Also ask yourselves what you were expecting in return. Now if He says "go and tell this people - be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving. Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed", would you say delete me? Do you think the people in the temple embraced and kissed Jeremiah after what he said in Jeremiah 7? You know, they both happened to talk too much and not getting results.
I feel that what I said "accomplished the purpose" that I had for it, but that it is rather embarassing (to me) to have so misunderstood what Richard was asking and embarassing (to him) how much was revealed in his responses.
I'm not opposed to letting it all stand if others feel that it has a more broad interest as a thread here. Since Richard has re-posted his request elsewhere, it may be okay to let it stand. Personally I'd love to go through everything he said, line by line, and analize whether it is biblically supportable or not - but in this venue that might sound very critical, rather than like dialog.
But, believe it or not, I never try to be one who writes or initiates inflammatory dialog. I'm by nature a diplomat and peacemaker!
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
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