posted
[This important theme arose out of Jeff's introduction and was moved to a seperate location where others could find it and read it later. As always, when a thread is split and moved - no individual posts are deleted.
the moderator]
-------------------- Sharing my "chaordic" journey with others.
I'll be interested in what you have to share, particularly with your church planter background, and because you have discerned the difference between the programmatic format and the organic life.
I've found that to be the most controversial discussion I engage in with my older church friends. "Is this that?"
We all share in common certain things: an early small group/accountability experience that helped us stand firm long term, a commitment to doing "whatever it takes" and missions vision. However, as we are all researching the alternatives, I'm becoming more convinced that the programmatic format is a bit of a red herring. But many of them are surrounded by hype that makes programs sound new, somehow. To me, it looks like the same mistake, only more so!
Many want to put them under the same "emerging" umbrella, but I feel strongly that "This is NOT that of which the prophet Joel spoke..." : ) that the two movements are diametrically opposed to one another... not complementary. Do you have thoughts on that?
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
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I would agree that the movement referred to as "The Emergent Church" is little more than the same programatic, attractional model of "doing" church. I like many of the things they are adding back to teh Kingdom. I like a more sensory approach to God. After all, when you look at the original approach to God through the Tabernacle it was very sensory oriented. The smells, sounds, sights, touch, and tastes were all integral for the worshipper. Then, thousands of years later, the Lord, on the last night of His life on earth, shared the last meal with His closest friends and disciples. I can only imagine the smell of the bread and wine. The taste and the texture. The satisfaction of a meal well eaten, and the closeness of the fellowship shared. That night was to be a part of the disciples lives from that moment on. They passed along that intimate night to new disciples and Paul eventually discussed it in 1 Corinthians.
Oops, sorry for the rambling, but I think that the Emerging Church is bringing some of that mystery back to the Church. We must never forget that Christianity began in the Middle East. It is rooted in much mystery and supernatural dynamics. I fear and am convinced that we have lost that sense of wonder and intrigue that directed the thoughts and actions of the first century churches. However, what I can understand from Emergent is that they simply move the pulpit or stool to the middle of the room and set up visually and other sensory dynamics to create an even more "sacred" space than what the typical church can. This, in my opinion, only serves to draw more people into a consumerstic value of church. I know I speaking in generalities, but I think I make my point.
I hope this helps to answer you question.
Thanx!
-------------------- Sharing my "chaordic" journey with others.
posted
Hi all, just let me add that technically there is a difference between the emergING church movement and the emergENT church and all kinds of shades of gray between the two.
Just as I predicted a long while ago, emergent/emerging is annexing house churches as part of their movement and vice versa. I just received a newsletter from Frank Viola, a prolific writer about non-traditional church stuff, at ptmin.org, announcing the he was alligning himself with the emergent movement and it's chief guru, Brian McLaren. Go to his site and click on the February Newsletter link for the details.
quote:Frank Viola, a prolific writer about non-traditional church stuff, at ptmin.org, announcing the he was alligning himself with the emergent movement and it's chief guru, Brian McLaren. Go to his site and click on the February Newsletter link.
Shucks, D, do I have to?? I already knew about McLaren being kind of cosmic about the whole thing, but I'm saddened that Viola is going that way...
Makes it really tough that everyone wants to keep it all loosey-goosey and slippery - there is something very sinister about that - to me, anyway. Simple church should be that -- simple. As I try to understand what some of these folks are saying I feel the same way I did when I pursued the New Age Movement. A lot of feel-good slogans, warm fuzzies, and no content!
Jeff, I agree about the sensual need.
Recently, I thought about how it somehow thrills God's soul to have worshipers who worship him in Spirit and in Truth - and at the same time get hungry, tired, uncomfortable, bored and need to go to the bathroom! What made him make us that way? Perhaps it is part of the mystery of faith that He is specially pleased when we overcome the carnal life and soar with him, inspite of these "bodies of death"?
That's one reason I'm so attracted to house church. I think the most intense body-soul-spirit experiences I've had is doing a basic Passover with another family. Something happens that is very moving, yet it is so simple! All the physical senses are engaged, yet we plumb the depths of God's love and his plan for humanity as revealed through the lamb and the Lamb.
Working toward that as a "normative experience" is one of my goals.
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
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If you went into a typical institute of higher learning and announced that you were searching for truth, you would be cheered. If you announced that you were searching for truth but hadn't found it, you would be cheered. If you declared that everyone's conception of truth was equally valid, you would be cheered for your "generosity." If you as much as suggested that truth originated in Jesus Christ alone, you will be jeered off the stage.
quote:I must add, though, that I don’t believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many (not all!) circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu or Jewish contexts.
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